Why SOME Clinical Volunteering Sucks

[Cherry212]

I would like to start off by saying that volunteering does NOT suck. I volunteer extensively through my church. I do it because I want to and enjoy it.

Now I would like to say why I and many others believe some clinical volunteering experiences suck. It started one day in the ER and the last hospital I volunteered at. There was an elderly patient in a room who asked me to bring him food since he was starving and looked miserable. I went up to a nurse to see if he could get a meal. She told me he was not allowed to have a meal since he was already discharged, and just waiting for.his.caretaker. I was able to bring him some crackers, though it did not make him happy. This was a pivotal moment for me. I saw how a patient wanted something so simple, yet was not.allowed to get it. This made me wonder just how the adult volunteers in administrative or retail positions were magically helping patients. They would throw themselves into these.positions thinking they are allowing the hospital to throw sunshine, rainbows, happiness, and unicorns at the patients. The hospital is still going to charge money for care and will not give countless freebies to help the patients. Therefore, I don't understand how these administrative or retail volunteers believe they are significantly going to HELP a patient. The money the hospital saves will likely go to line the pockets of the board of directors.

This makes me feel absolutely wonderful about the beds I clean and linen closets that I stocked on a daily basis. I found myself being the EXPLETIVE of the techs in the ER. They would stand around and talk, play with their phones, and surf Facebook whil commanding me to clean specific rooms. No one ever said thank you, despite me waking up early in the morning on a weekend and spending hours to do their scut work. I met a friendly tech once. She asked me why there are student volunteers in the hospital, as she was unfamiliar with the medical school admissions hoops. She told me how this is work, and it isn't FUN.

I have lurked in the SDN threads for a while, and see that some members are quite naive. They give hell to anyone who is "padding" their resume by volunteering. The SDN community represents a small cross-section of medical school applicants. Sure there are those who volunteer out of the goodness of their hearts, but when you have over 80% of applicants doing some form of volunteering, I think that we can safely assume that a good number volunteer because it is an unwritten rule. I doubt over 80% of law school, business school applicants volunteer. Are premeds really that much more altruistic than other professional school students? Does this make other professional school students bad people? It appears that whenever someone on SDN talks about volunteering as a hoop to jump through, they are tagged as being bad individuals.

When individuals from my church went on mission trips, they were able to talk about their experiences in a sincere matter. When I went to a premed meeting at Columbia, the students casually talked about their volunteering experiences as if it were nothing. In fact, they would be asked where they volunteer since it was an assumption that they already did it. I really find a problem with volunteering being an unwritten rule. This is supposed to be something special that individuals do out of the goodness of their hearts. When it is a requirement, not only is it no longer volunteering (it becomes forced labor), but students are.forced to put up a charade. If I told an adcom that I hated the MCAT, I am sure no harm.eill come of this. On the other hand, if I tell the adcoms that I hated clinical volunteering, I would find rejection and will be branded as a bad person.

If the adcoms want people to volunteer, then make this a requirement already! I have seen ao many premeds on SDN trying to one-up each other by racking thousands of hours or spending large sums of money to go on a foreign mission trip so they can pad their resume. At the large New York hospital I previously volunteered at, I saw plenty of premeds.who genuinely hated being there. They did this because it was a hoop to jump through. If they managed to get medical school interviews, they would need to do their best.to put up a fake front. Physicians need to be noble citizens, and not be good liars.

I hate how many clinical volunteers are treated. They become free slave labor, and are never thanked for the hours they put in. This is not reflective of all clinical experiences of course. There are the go-getters on SDN who are integral parts of the ER staff because they take initiative. This only represents some of the premed population. Otherwise you have apathetic students who stand around and FAKE their altruism because it is an unwritten rule. It sucks for so many students because having paid opportunities can help pay bills, but.instead they must answer phones, file paperwork, or change sheets.

I volunteer through my church because I genuinely enjoy it. I volunteered before I ever decided to play the medical school admissions game. Volunteering should not be an unwrittrn rule. People should do to because they have a genuine desire to do so. Just make it an official requirement so students can just do it and not try to BS their way through an interview by putting up a fake front. It's jusf not right...

What are your thoughts? If it weren't a hoop, would you still volunteer? Be honest, do you seriously think college students want to give up hours of a day to clean beds? Also if weren't a.hoop, why would someone make a bad physician if they did not volunteer? I think you can be a perfectly fine doctor even if you didn't spend your weekends cleaning sheets. In fact, I think premeds can be taught to be even better doctors if they aren't forced to lie about something like this.

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[Isoprop]

 

[drizzt3117]

 

[Gnomes]

OP, ignore the inevitable illiterates who can't read walls of text. Know that they will meet their ironic fate at the hands of the one called Big Robbins. 😛

Anyway I mostly agree. Clinical volunteering as it exists in the context of trying to get into medical school is a farce, yet it is an almost-necessary hoop to jump through. I got in without it, but only barely.

It's really a shame. At the hospital I shadowed at (but did not volunteer), it was clear that the staff there were of the (correct) mindset that they were generously allowing the volunteers to gain the hours they needed to be admitted, rather than being in any way grateful to their pre-med volunteers. Probably they had too many to make meaningful use of them all, so their attitude was correct.

If I am ever part of the admissions process, I will be very open-minded about other kinds of volunteerism or activity in the community. I hope that this goes for many of the others here who see how sad this situation is. I'm sure some people really do want to do this kind of volunteering, but no-one would believe that because it's just "the thing to do." </rant>

I do totally agree that volunteering or other community involvement is and should be important for pre-meds, though.

 

[Cherry212]

OP, ignore the inevitable illiterates who can't read walls of text. Know that they will meet their ironic fate at the hands of the one called Big Robbins. 😛

Anyway I mostly agree. Clinical volunteering as it exists in the context of trying to get into medical school is a farce, yet it is an almost-necessary hoop to jump through. I got in without it, but only barely.

It's really a shame. At the hospital I shadowed at (but did not volunteer), it was clear that the staff there were of the (correct) mindset that they were generously allowing the volunteers to gain the hours they needed to be admitted, rather than being in any way grateful to their pre-med volunteers. Probably they had too many to make meaningful use of them all, so their attitude was correct.

If I am ever part of the admissions process, I will be very open-minded about other kinds of volunteerism or activity in the community. I hope that this goes for many of the others here who see how sad this situation is. I'm sure some people really do want to do this kind of volunteering, but no-one would believe that because it's just "the thing to do." </rant>

I do totally agree that volunteering or other community involvement is and should be important for pre-meds, though.

+1

Glad to hear that someone agrees! 😀

 

[VisionaryTics]

Agree completely.

"Clinical volunteering" is one of the biggest farces of medical school admissions. Your eagerness to change sheets and stock gloves has no correlation to anything in the medical field.

Unfortunately, there are 2.5 applicants for every spot, so the farce goes on.

 

[blue0rchid]

However, even when the volunteer job itself sucks, it at least will give the volunteer opportunities to observe working environment at a hospital, talk to people, nurses, docs, PAs, patients, whatever... If you don't want to do clinical volunteering, then get your clinical experiences mainly from shadowing (in a hospital), and do non-clinical volunteer work that's meaningful and enjoyable to you.

 

[MedicHopeful]

However, even when the volunteer job itself sucks, it at least will give the volunteer opportunities to observe working environment at a hospital, talk to people, nurses, docs, PAs, patients, whatever... If you don't want to do clinical volunteering, then get your clinical experiences mainly from shadowing (in a hospital), and do non-clinical volunteer work that's meaningful and enjoyable to you.

True...

 

[Gnomes]

However, even when the volunteer job itself sucks, it at least will give the volunteer opportunities to observe working environment at a hospital, talk to people, nurses, docs, PAs, patients, whatever... If you don't want to do clinical volunteering, then get your clinical experiences mainly from shadowing (in a hospital), and do non-clinical volunteer work that's meaningful and enjoyable to you.

I agree that exposure to the hospital is important to deciding if medicine is right for you, but that need is probably better met by shadowing (a considerably higher-yield exposure to the activities of physicians), more specialized kinds of volunteering, ER scribing, and other sorts of peri-medical activities and jobs.

 

[Slowpoke]

If it weren't a hoop, would you still volunteer? Also if weren't a.hoop, why would someone make a bad physician if they did not volunteer?

Yes, I would partake in clinical volunteering even if it was not expected of applicants.

People do things for different reasons, either for self gain, societal benefit or some mixture of the two. If the primary reason you are spending part of your Saturday or Sunday (or whenever your shifts are) working at your local hospital is to paint a picture on your application that you are altruistic - you ain't doin' right.

Why? Because hospital volunteering is not the only way to gain clinical exposure, or to show that you are altruistic.

I feel that people may lose sight of why they do some of their extracurriculars when they look at some of the application requirements as "hoops". It is a matter of perspective. I may look at the MCAT as a "hoop" with absolutely no significance in predicting how I will be as a physician, but others may see it differently.

I think why people SHOULD spend some of their free time volunteering, specifically in a clinic or hospital comes down to being able to answer one simple but often frustrating question:

How do you know you want to be a doctor, without ever working with/being around sick people?

The logical progression I feel is twisted for medicine. People FIRST somehow, miraculously come to the conclusion that they are dead-set on medicine early on, without really taking into account other health careers that "help people". This leads to the mindset of "WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET IN" and such is the birth of the checklist.

I feel the normal progression of any career is people find an interest in something, explore it extensively to make an informed decision and go based off that. With this mindset people would be doing the clinical volunteering not to fulfill some "unwritten requirement" but to get exposure and perhaps to exemplify qualities that are often expected of physicians.

 

[chiapet874]

👍 for the entire thread. Unfortunately, clinical volunteering of this nature is part of a vicious cycle that can't be easily broken.

 

[CDAstudent]

I think you pose some interesting questions. I have been working at the local ER for a while now, and I have a lot of the same concerns. Unfortunately most of the other premeds I have worked with have an inexplicable sense of entitlement. They resent the nurses for ordering them around, and often gripe amongst themselves about the indignity of their position. I can have some of the same feelings on some of the particularly difficult days, but always remind myself that there is no reason why I should begrudge the nurses their authority over me. I pursued this position to obtain a more thorough understanding of how healthcare works and to offer my help to those who need it. It's certainly a struggle to set my pride aside every day, but I think it gives me a better perspective for working with other healthcare professionals in the future.
The fact that most volunteer positions are thankless may be a blessing in disguise, especially for those who are considering EM. Patients who come into the ED are very rarely happy to be there (for understandable reasons) and often take their frustration out on anyone they come in contact with. Thank you is not a common phrase. I think premeds should be ready to face apathy, if not outright hostility, in a small portion of their patient interactions.
Lastly, I completely agree that the silent requirement of volunteering does nothing to enhance the moral aptitude of most premeds, and only improves the ability to perform to a certain set of standards. However, I think you can take comfort in knowing that in the future your patients and coworkers will be able to see you are genuine. I don't think the same can be said of some of our compatriots.

 

[dmf2682]

What are your thoughts? If it weren't a hoop, would you still volunteer? Be honest, do you seriously think college students want to give up hours of a day to clean beds? Also if weren't a.hoop, why would someone make a bad physician if they did not volunteer? I think you can be a perfectly fine doctor even if you didn't spend your weekends cleaning sheets. In fact, I think premeds can be taught to be even better doctors if they aren't forced to lie about something like this.

I'll say first that I'm a non-trad and am not a college student. I graduated from undergrad in 2005 and have been a working professional since. Coming out of undergrad and thru this past winter, I was fully intent on staying at my current job and career. Despite that, I volunteered at various places and organizations on a semi-regular basis because I thought it was a great way to meet people and give back to the community at the same time. Over the six years maybe this comes to 250-300 hours.

I will not lie, that when I decided to pursue a career in medicine I figured I needed clinical volunteer experience and made it a priority to get some before my application cycle. I think for me, it was really a mix of two things that drove me to do that. First, from SDN, that I needed the experience to put it on my resume. But second, and more importantly, I needed to convince myself that I was capable of being compassionate and caring for others, that I'm not the "engineering robot" that most folks in my field are perceived as. Where else could I get that?

Anyway. My experience has been pretty awesome. I don't clean sheets- I volunteer in aquatic OT/PT, functioning as a cross between a glorified swim instructor and a PT tech for special needs children. It is sometimes rough, especially when you get into the pool with a headache and leave with a much worse one, but in general it's really rewarding and everyone is really grateful for your service (the staff, lifeguards, and parents). Maybe you can find something similar, if you feel that you need to.

I don't think clinical volunteering is necessary as such, but I'm just another pre-med. What I've been told by residents who are my age is that all you really need is to demonstrate you know what you're getting into (i.e. shadowing) and that you're service oriented (ANY volunteering, anywhere). I think the number of volunteering hours someone has has little to do with how well they'll do in med school, but what they're getting at is that a physician is a service-oriented position, and they want to see people who don't think solely about themselves.

Just my thoughts. Sorry it's kinda disjointed.

 

[Cherry212]

Yes, I would partake in clinical volunteering even if it was not expected of applicants.

People do things for different reasons, either for self gain, societal benefit or some mixture of the two. If the primary reason you are spending part of your Saturday or Sunday (or whenever your shifts are) working at your local hospital is to paint a picture on your application that you are altruistic - you ain't doin' right.

Why? Because hospital volunteering is not the only way to gain clinical exposure, or to show that you are altruistic.

I feel that people may lose sight of why they do some of their extracurriculars when they look at some of the application requirements as "hoops". It is a matter of perspective. I may look at the MCAT as a "hoop" with absolutely no significance in predicting how I will be as a physician, but others may see it differently.

I think why people SHOULD spend some of their free time volunteering, specifically in a clinic or hospital comes down to being able to answer one simple but often frustrating question:

How do you know you want to be a doctor, without ever working with/being around sick people?

The logical progression I feel is twisted for medicine. People FIRST somehow, miraculously come to the conclusion that they are dead-set on medicine early on, without really taking into account other health careers that "help people". This leads to the mindset of "WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET IN" and such is the birth of the checklist.

I feel the normal progression of any career is people find an interest in something, explore it extensively to make an informed decision and go based off that. With this mindset people would be doing the clinical volunteering not to fulfill some "unwritten requirement" but to get exposure and perhaps to exemplify qualities that are often expected of physicians.

I agree that premeds need to know what they are getting into. It probably took ten hours or even less in the ER to gain an understanding of the clinical environment. Is it absolutely necessary to get hundreds or even thousands of hours? I see some SDN members are accruing those kinds of figures. I also remember reading that some "service oriented" schools won't even look at your app unless you are in the hundreds.

I'm struggling to get by. I am sure plenty of others are in the same boat. Being ALLOWED to do paid work would be a godsend. I know non-trads with families and bills that may struggle. Even though three or four hours may seem like nothing to some, but it is a LOT of time for those who struggle to support their families and take care of the premed coursework. Are they not showing their desire enough by making such sacrifices to be a doctor? Is it necessary to spend a hundred hours at least to prove it?

 

[Nymphicus]

This is why I volunteered at a free clinic, where my help was both appreciated and sometimes interesting! I chose it over the hospitals where everyone else was, and am glad I did so.

 

[kpcrew]

 

[kautionwirez]

I'm currently volunteering at a hospice and it has been one of the most rewarding experiences.

Many ER volunteering opportunities are not the best. Some are awesome.

I'd say do something/volunteer somewhere where you can be of help, learn a few tricks of the trade, and have patient contact.

 

[KLycos]

I didn't want to volunteer but I did it anyways because it is a hoop. I didn't compain, I just did what I was asked to do and was a valuable asset to the hospitals I volunteered at. Who cares? Be a man and don't complain, I have like 5 volunteers I manage now in my research and none of them complain. All of them are just volunteering for their apps, but who cares if they do what they are asked to do, and can have fun and be chill?

 

[MWB]

If the adcoms want people to volunteer, then make this a requirement already! I have seen ao many premeds on SDN trying to one-up each other by racking thousands of hours or spending large sums of money to go on a foreign mission trip so they can pad their resume. At the large New York hospital I previously volunteered at, I saw plenty of premeds.who genuinely hated being there. They did this because it was a hoop to jump through. If they managed to get medical school interviews, they would need to do their best.to put up a fake front. Physicians need to be noble citizens, and not be good liars.

[...]

What are your thoughts? If it weren't a hoop, would you still volunteer? Be honest, do you seriously think college students want to give up hours of a day to clean beds? Also if weren't a.hoop, why would someone make a bad physician if they did not volunteer? I think you can be a perfectly fine doctor even if you didn't spend your weekends cleaning sheets. In fact, I think premeds can be taught to be even better doctors if they aren't forced to lie about something like this.

At one hospital, which uses a computerized check-in/check-out system for its volunteers, I witnessed people who would log others in at the kiosk. For example, if they had to do 8 hrs/wk over two shifts, they'd show up for one shift and have someone log them in for the next shift instead of showing up. Some went as far as only coming in every other week and "taking turns" logging people in. You're right, it's definitely sad that people see this as an obstacle/adversity they have to overcome and figure out how to deceive. I found "non-premed volunteering opportunities" such as habitat for humanity or soup kitchens more gratifying because, as you said, fellow volunteers had a genuine desire to be there and make a difference in their own way.

Oh, this reminds me: when training new volunteers, I often find them trying to cut to the chase and find out the "minimum work" they need to do to stay on board and win a reference letter, which is quite sad. You're wasting all this time in the hospital every week, why not make the best of it and actually try to make a difference and learn a few things? But then again, I don't know what experiences people had before that may cause them to act that way, so I'm not one to judge :-/

 

[Cherry212]

At one hospital, which uses a computerized check-in/check-out system for its volunteers, I witnessed people who would log others in at the kiosk. For example, if they had to do 8 hrs/wk over two shifts, they'd show up for one shift and have someone log them in for the next shift instead of showing up. Some went as far as only coming in every other week and "taking turns" logging people in. You're right, it's definitely sad that people see this as an obstacle/adversity they have to overcome and figure out how to deceive. I found "non-premed volunteering opportunities" such as habitat for humanity or soup kitchens more gratifying because, as you said, fellow volunteers had a genuine desire to be there and make a difference in their own way.

Oh, this reminds me: when training new volunteers, I often find them trying to cut to the chase and find out the "minimum work" they need to do to stay on board and win a reference letter, which is quite sad. You're wasting all this time in the hospital every week, why not make the best of it and actually try to make a difference and learn a few things? But then again, I don't know what experiences people had before that may cause them to act that way, so I'm not one to judge :-/

That's very interesting. I can't say I've witnessed anyone falsely logging in first hand, but believe it is probably common. I recently had a friend ask me to ditch my volunteering gig for a day. I told him I couldn't, and his response was, "What are they going to do? Fire you?" I can see them "firing" someone for what you mentioned above, if it takes place at a large hospital where a wait-list for premeds exists. I think the suburban hospitals might be another story.

One thing I'd like to mention is that I knew someone from my church who was premed since freshman year. What he did was find the hospital with the shortest minimum time commitment. He found a hospital with a three month commitment. He ended up volunteering three months every year up and made sure to be within that time frame when he filled out the AMCAS. Since they ask for a start and end date, he neglected to mention hours. Therefore, according to him, unless explicitly asked about the hours he worked, it was NOT a lie to say that he volunteered all four years. He neglected to mention the nine month breaks, and was able to inflate his perceived commitment by 400%! 😱

 

[sibitrum]

Since they ask for a start and end date, he neglected to mention hours. Therefore, according to him, unless explicitly asked about the hours he worked, it was NOT a lie to say that he volunteered all four years. He neglected to mention the nine month breaks, and was able to inflate his perceived commitment by 400%! 😱

Except that you have to put down hours/week in the application. If you put only your maximum, that would be falsifying your hours.

 

[Cherry212]

Except that you have to put down hours/week in the application. If you put only your maximum, that would be falsifying your hours.

The volunteer shifts were all four hours. Therefore whether he volunteered for one week, two weeks, six months, or ten years, the commitment was always four hours per week.

 

[fizzgig]

that's so dishonest, but anyway. it's pretty obvious if you put x hours/week that you're implying you do it every week, and if you take significant breaks you should be dividing by a larger number. and the logging into/out of kiosks for other people is even more so. that exact kind of situation is an interview question at school after school... urg.

anyway, posting to say that if you have no patient contact i can see how volunteering might seem like you're not learning anything about yourself/your career direction (and you might say you could spend that time volunteering somewhere more meaningful). ok, fair enough. but if you have patient contact even if you can't do much, i think it makes a difference for them and you. i volunteer in the ED and i don't do much either. i just get people crackers and blankets, and ohbutwait half the people can't eat sooo no crackers for you, just blankets. so what? i'm still a face checking in, i'm not hurried, i can chitchat, and for more people than i'd expect, just the fact that someone would volunteer to check in on people seems to pleasantly surprise patients and family. some folks don't care, and some want me to leave them alone, but a lot seem to appreciate that i'm there even when i can't offer much. for my part, i get to interact with tons of people from tons of backgrounds with all sorts of problems and stories. i dunno, maybe it's because i'm a sheltered lab-engineer right now, but i think these interactions are useful for me as well because someday these are going to be my patients. ok, 2cents done.

 

[Cherry212]

that's so dishonest, but anyway. it's pretty obvious if you put x hours/week that you're implying you do it every week, and if you take significant breaks you should be dividing by a larger number. and the logging into/out of kiosks for other people is even more so. that exact kind of situation is an interview question at school after school... urg.

anyway, posting to say that if you have no patient contact i can see how volunteering might seem like you're not learning anything about yourself/your career direction (and you might say you could spend that time volunteering somewhere more meaningful). ok, fair enough. but if you have patient contact even if you can't do much, i think it makes a difference for them and you. i volunteer in the ED and i don't do much either. i just get people crackers and blankets, and ohbutwait half the people can't eat sooo no crackers for you, just blankets. so what? i'm still a face checking in, i'm not hurried, i can chitchat, and for more people than i'd expect, just the fact that someone would volunteer to check in on people seems to pleasantly surprise patients and family. some folks don't care, and some want me to leave them alone, but a lot seem to appreciate that i'm there even when i can't offer much. for my part, i get to interact with tons of people from tons of backgrounds with all sorts of problems and stories. i dunno, maybe it's because i'm a sheltered lab-engineer right now, but i think these interactions are useful for me as well because someday these are going to be my patients. ok, 2cents done.

All of this dishonesty shows that there is an issue with the admissions process. Clearly it's not an isolated issue. 🙁

 

[fizzgig]

all of this dishonesty shows that the world has a lot of dishonest people in it. *shrug*

there's no perfect way to filter out every shady person, unfortunately. you'd hope the people who get interviews by radically inflating what they do or lying will betray themselves during the interview, which probably does happen sometimes, but of course not all the time. it's a problem for every selection process for any job/school/grant/application process. certainly highlights our inability to assess people but i don't think this difficulty means the clinical volunteering itself is not a useful thing (though i understand the annoyance at the many "suggested" hoops that are really required parts of the app).

 

[Stumpyman]

I get your reasoning but consider yourself lucky for having the opportunity to volunteer in a clinical setting.

/been searching for 6 months for ANY hospital/clinic in a 35 mile radius to take me.

I don't even care if I'll be volunteering with ex-convicts, let alone "dishonest" people.

 

[GetThePointe77]

I was incredibly lucky to be able to volunteer in a NICU. Not only did I have actual patient contact, I felt that I was actually making a difference. It was incredibly rewarding, and I hope that in this process towards medical school everyone gets experiences like the ones I was able to have. That said, in other clinical volunteering I also made beds, did stock, expletive work ect, and I know how much it stinks!! I think that this "hoop" was put in place because there can be good volunteering experiences, and has stayed in place in part because of the competition to get into medical school. That said, try to find a better position, but at the end of the day its something that most people have to "grin and bear it"

 

[Cherry212]

all of this dishonesty shows that the world has a lot of dishonest people in it. *shrug*

there's no perfect way to filter out every shady person, unfortunately. you'd hope the people who get interviews by radically inflating what they do or lying will betray themselves during the interview, which probably does happen sometimes, but of course not all the time. it's a problem for every selection process for any job/school/grant/application process. certainly highlights our inability to assess people but i don't think this difficulty means the clinical volunteering itself is not a useful thing (though i understand the annoyance at the many "suggested" hoops that are really required parts of the app).

You bring up an interesting point there. This actually reminded me of something that does not have to do with medical school, but is along the same lines.

Are all of the "dishonest" people really shady? I know of someone who had a summer job as a receptionist in a private nursing home in her home state. Many of the high schools there had community service requirements in order to graduate. A lot of students ended up completing these requirements over the summer. She had a younger cousin who went to high school with such requirement. The girl ended up signing off on the volunteering sheets for her cousin and her cousin's friends. She didn't think anything of it.

I messaged her on Facebook earlier tonight, and she told me that most of the cousin's friends were "good" students that did well in school and were not compulsive cheaters.

I'm not trying to defend these individuals, whether it is high school students bypassing the graduation requirement or premeds improperly signing onto the computer systems as mentioned above, but are they all shady people that should not practice medicine? Maybe a few of them are the ones that will attempt to cheat on their exams, and hopefully get caught. But for most part, I'm guessing a lot of them are hard working students who are jumping through the hoops, and simply don't appreciate the "forced altruism."

The impression I got after Facebooking that girl was that the high school students view this action just like speeding. They don't see it as a big deal, and no where near the magnitude of something like cheating on an exam. I assume that premeds who play the system view this similarly. It's too extreme to generalize those who "play" the system as all being shady.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cherry212]

I get your reasoning but consider yourself lucky for having the opportunity to volunteer in a clinical setting.

/been searching for 6 months for ANY hospital/clinic in a 35 mile radius to take me.

I don't even care if I'll be volunteering with ex-convicts, let alone "dishonest" people.

Hence I never saw anyone get caught "playing" the system at my first volunteer experience. If they were to sign their friends on or have their friends sign them in when they weren't actually volunteering, I'm sure they would have gotten the boot. This was at an urban NY hospital, and there were plenty of other premeds to take their places.

If this was the only thing holding them back from "playing" the system, then I find it quite sad.

Good luck in finding a position though! I'm sure you'll have a more positive perspective. 🙂

 

[fizzgig]

You bring up an interesting point there. This actually reminded me of something that does not have to do with medical school, but is along the same lines.

Are all of the "dishonest" people really shady? I know of someone who had a summer job as a receptionist in a private nursing home in her home state. Many of the high schools there had community service requirements in order to graduate. A lot of students ended up completing these requirements over the summer. She had a younger cousin who went to high school with such requirement. The girl ended up signing off on the volunteering sheets for her cousin and her cousin's friends. She didn't think anything of it.

I messaged her on Facebook earlier tonight, and she told me that most of the cousin's friends were "good" students that did well in school and were not compulsive cheaters.

I'm not trying to defend these individuals, whether it is high school students bypassing the graduation requirement or premeds improperly signing onto the computer systems as mentioned above, but are they all shady people that should not practice medicine? Maybe a few of them are the ones that will attempt to cheat on their exams, and hopefully get caught. But for most part, I'm guessing a lot of them are hard working students who are jumping through the hoops, and simply don't appreciate the "forced altruism."

The impression I got after Facebooking that girl was that the high school students view this action just like speeding. They don't see it as a big deal, and no where near the magnitude of something like cheating on an exam. I assume that premeds who play the system view this similarly. It's too extreme to generalize those who "play" the system as all being shady.

Any thoughts?

meh, no i don't think that everyone who does something shady is a terrible person who would be an unethical doctor. that said, there's a lot of grey area. we all do some lying and rule bending and consequence avoidance in our youth. we get caught sometimes, sometimes not. i don't think i'm a terrible person because i never paid the price for lying about hiding that one board game that one time. but, over a lot of years there's been a gradual change, maturing, and with a mature understanding of what honor and honesty and ethics are about, there are higher standards for me now, even with things that seem trivial.

should your person have signed off on her cousin's sheets? no. that's sketchy. but there's lots of mistakes made where people 'just weren't thinking about it.' either by education or getting busted or just thinking differently as you get older that kind of thing should become something you just don't do (even though it is still not a huge moral failing that should land you in the clink, obviously). if by the time you are a college age student planning to be a doctor you still haven't had that maturation, i'd argue yeah it's time to get on the ball and realize that, though you still are arguably not a terrible human being, you are acting immaturely and should be ready to pay the full consequence (so for falsifying your amcas, even for 'trivial' things, may result in losing your future if you're busted).

"it didnt seem like a big deal" is a child's argument even if yes we can all agree that murder is worse than lying about volunteer hours, you know what i mean? and there is a certain point where if someone feels ok this rule but not that one, particularly when it concerned more vs less work for them, i would be concerned that they would be fine lying about bigger and more important things later on, because their only requirement to do so would be for them to not see the point/not think it is a big deal/ not see the harm.

 

[music2doc]

You bring up an interesting point there. This actually reminded me of something that does not have to do with medical school, but is along the same lines.

Are all of the "dishonest" people really shady? I know of someone who had a summer job as a receptionist in a private nursing home in her home state. Many of the high schools there had community service requirements in order to graduate. A lot of students ended up completing these requirements over the summer. She had a younger cousin who went to high school with such requirement. The girl ended up signing off on the volunteering sheets for her cousin and her cousin's friends. She didn't think anything of it.

I messaged her on Facebook earlier tonight, and she told me that most of the cousin's friends were "good" students that did well in school and were not compulsive cheaters.

I'm not trying to defend these individuals, whether it is high school students bypassing the graduation requirement or premeds improperly signing onto the computer systems as mentioned above, but are they all shady people that should not practice medicine? Maybe a few of them are the ones that will attempt to cheat on their exams, and hopefully get caught. But for most part, I'm guessing a lot of them are hard working students who are jumping through the hoops, and simply don't appreciate the "forced altruism."

The impression I got after Facebooking that girl was that the high school students view this action just like speeding. They don't see it as a big deal, and no where near the magnitude of something like cheating on an exam. I assume that premeds who play the system view this similarly. It's too extreme to generalize those who "play" the system as all being shady.

Any thoughts?

Seems like a slippery slope to me. The fact that those students saw their cheating as "no big deal, just like speeding" is a major red flag! It basically tells you there is at least some lack of ethics on a fundamental level. It is the same with these volunteers signing in and out for their friends. It shows a lack of integrity, which is a major character flaw. Does this mean the person is unfit for medicine? Quite possibly, although to pass judgment without any further consideration would be a bit hasty.

 

[Cherry212]

Seems like a slippery slope to me. The fact that those students saw their cheating as "no big deal, just like speeding" is a major red flag! It basically tells you there is at least some lack of ethics on a fundamental level. It is the same with these volunteers signing in and out for their friends. It shows a lack of integrity, which is a major character flaw. Does this mean the person is unfit for medicine? Quite possibly, although to pass judgment without any further consideration would be a bit hasty.

Interesting... I wonder why a number of premeds wouldnt think twice about dishonestly playing the volunteer system, but would not cheat in their classes or on the MCAT (assuming it were possible).

 

[dmf2682]

Seems like a slippery slope to me. The fact that those students saw their cheating as "no big deal, just like speeding" is a major red flag! It basically tells you there is at least some lack of ethics on a fundamental level. It is the same with these volunteers signing in and out for their friends. It shows a lack of integrity, which is a major character flaw. Does this mean the person is unfit for medicine? Quite possibly, although to pass judgment without any further consideration would be a bit hasty.

Maybe it says something about some kids' work ethic. We had a young guy start in our group at work in January who was pretty smart, from a great school. You could tell he really knew his aero. But he didn't work for beans. He'd come in late and leave as soon as the boss left, and didn't bother to come in if he knew the supervisor would be away. Sure enough he got fired. A good life lesson for someone to get- too bad it cost him a high paying engineering career in a sluggish economy.

 

[Cherry212]

Maybe it says something about some kids' work ethic. We had a young guy start in our group at work in January who was pretty smart, from a great school. You could tell he really knew his aero. But he didn't work for beans. He'd come in late and leave as soon as the boss left, and didn't bother to come in if he knew the supervisor would be away. Sure enough he got fired. A good life lesson for someone to get- too bad it cost him a high paying engineering career in a sluggish economy.

Wow this is ridiculous. Especially to do it with a difficult to find high paying job! This touches on what MWB mentioned earlier about premed volunteers trying to find the least amount of work possible to do in order to get by.

I showed this thread to an acquaintance who is a first year resident at a smaller suburban hospital. He told me that at his hospital, the allow ONLY adult (at least non-premeds) to do the administrative tasks. They have the adults work as receptionists. He said that it takes time and resources to train them to use the hospital's computer systems, phone, etc... These volunteers completely replace the need for paid receptionists. He then added that due to the fact that the premeds they experience are very unreliable and will either sit on their phones the entire time or just not show up.

I'm sure this is not as much of a problem for an urban hospital where a waitlist for premeds.exists. It looks like this can hurt smaller hospitals if they rely on student volunteers to perform administrative tasks. It's possible that the large influx of premed volunteers might even hurt some hospitals, especially if the students are being trained to use the phones or computer systems. Under the assumption that a good number of premeds.underperform or fail to show up, a hospital is not only relying on an unreliable resource, but is also spending time and money to train an unreliable resource. In this case, the organization does not benefit from the volunteer, but may actually suffer.

This idea is touched upon in an active thread where premeds receive EMT certification for.the purpose of padding their applications, and then have no desire to put forth a great effort.

 

[MedicHopeful]

Interesting... I wonder why a number of premeds wouldnt think twice about dishonestly playing the volunteer system, but would not cheat in their classes or on the MCAT (assuming it were possible).

Because it doesn't "look" like cheating to them.

With classwork or the MCAT, cheating is a visible/tangible act involving looking at and/or copying down unauthorized material, whether from an illicit source (e.g. a cheat sheet for a test) or another student/person. It is not instantaneous; it involves the active decision to cheat, contemplation and selection of what source(s) to cheat from, and then the actual act of cheating.

In lying about experience on an application or a time sheet, it's far quicker and easier to just spontaneously change the numbers in the blink of an eye and not think twice. Hardly any thinking is usually involved.

As far as "cheating" on-the-job, well, put simply, if one is lazy and doesn't feel like working, one will be inclined to work less - it doesn't look like cheating, as much as it really is laziness.

 

[centrigeugle]

tl;dr

Pre-meds exaggerate their extracurricular hours. News report at 11.

 

[mvenus929]

Without reading all the responses, here's my $0.02.

Most clinical volunteering jobs are low yield for most people, because they go into it thinking that they'll kill two birds with one stone: learning about the hospital environment and volunteering. I discourage this, for obvious reasons.

However, there are some awesome clinical volunteering opportunities out there. We have a Music in Medicine initiative at my hospital, and I think it's a great program for those who are musically inclined.

Using it to get clinical experience, though, is pretty pointless, because you're on a whole different level than the staff. You have no skills as a volunteer. Even if you did, most of the time the hospital won't let you do anything for liability reasons. So, to get clinical experience, I recommend a job in healthcare. You're a part of the team, then, and have to figure out how to work within that team. Plus, you get to see what parts other professions play.

I volunteered in a hospital for about a year. I sat in the peds playroom, and since the only time I could come in was when there was quiet time on the floor, I basically read the entire time I was there. And then I decided that while I liked the idea of the position, I was far too busy to keep up with it on a weekly basis (I literally made myself sick because I was doing so much), so I dropped it in lieu of other volunteering opportunities. And I still volunteer all the time as a med student. The capacity in which I can volunteer has changed: I can now do heath screenings and help out in a more clinical capacity, and that's great. But general volunteering is fun for me as well.

 

[Cherry212]

Because it doesn't "look" like cheating to them.

With classwork or the MCAT, cheating is a visible/tangible act involving looking at and/or copying down unauthorized material, whether from an illicit source (e.g. a cheat sheet for a test) or another student/person. It is not instantaneous; it involves the active decision to cheat, contemplation and selection of what source(s) to cheat from, and then the actual act of cheating.

In lying about experience on an application or a time sheet, it's far quicker and easier to just spontaneously change the numbers in the blink of an eye and not think twice. Hardly any thinking is usually involved.

As far as "cheating" on-the-job, well, put simply, if one is lazy and doesn't feel like working, one will be inclined to work less - it doesn't look like cheating, as much as it really is laziness.

This reminds me of the the argument whether online piracy is stealing or not. It's so easily done that it doesn't feel like stealing. The same concept applies to playing the volunteer system. It's interesting to see the divide between some of the SDN members, and see how strongly they are against such actions, while plenty of premeds play the system without a guilty conscience.

As for laziness, it's amazing what I've witnessed when watching volunteers for my church evenings compared to premed volunteers at the large urban medical center. When I volunteer at a church event or any "non-premed" activity, I see happy volunteers who actually want to be there. They work hard, and have a great time doing so! I am among them.

On the contrary, when I was at the hospital, I saw unhappy premeds who stood around on their phones. They often took care of tasks only when asked to do so, and did the bare minimum at that. I remember adding a girl as a friend on Facebook when I started that gig. She worked the afternoon shift that led into the evening transporting patients. One day I was working that same shift and saw her wearing clubbing clothing under the volunteer vest. She already had her makeup on, and looked ready to go out the moment she finished her shift. She did not look happy at all. It was obvious that she did not want to be there. I even heard her say: "This [expletive] blows." On Facebook, I saw that she was quite the party animal. It was hard to imagine her as a genuinely altruistic person who wanted to be there. Seeing her attitude at the hospital gave it away.

Plenty of the premeds are like this. Unhappy to be there. It's the complete opposite of my church experiences. When premeds are forced to do something they hate, they will not do it anywhere near the best of their abilities, or in the cases mentioned earlier, will not do it all!

I will admit that I have been caught off guard before. At my current hospital, I work the early morning shift on Saturdays. There is an older gentleman who works the ER volunteer shift immediately after. One day, about twenty minutes before I had to leave, he randomly came in. He just came back from a long vacation, and said he "wanted to make sure everything was okay." He then started bossing me around, and scolded me because I did not make a fresh batch of coffee. He was extremely serious and passionate about this. Somehow I think that he honestly thought the ER could not function properly without him. I mean that in all seriousness. This shows how much some of the volunteers actually care about this. I also realized how much I did not care about it at the same time.

I figure I care a lot about Bible study, mentoring, and other volunteer activities the same way this older volunteer cared about being in the hospital. Once I get an acceptance to medical school, I will drop clinical volunteering the moment I hear the good news. I just don't care. But I do care about other activities, and will continue to do them. Not because I'm being forced, but because I genuinely enjoy them. 👍

 

[mednem]

I applied to med school this summer and was rejected due to a 'lack of preparation for a medical career' at my home state university which heavily prefers instate students. I don't want to be perceived as bragging but my MCAT was 38 and GPA was 3.76 so that was definitely not the reason.

Since then I have been trying to get into volunteering positions at hospitals and I have to say it is almost as challenging as the job market is currently. I started looking for volunteering 2 months ago and I am invited to a volunteering orientation in about another month. What other people have said about these hospitals having a HUGE surplus of willing volunteers is definitely true in my experience. There is simply nowhere for the hospitals to put all of us aspiring pre-meds.

I had research and extracurricular experience but basically no volunteering, so I'd say the notion that volunteering is a 'silent' requirement is very well backed-up by my experience. I started a blog about my experience and this is one of my first posts for your perusal:

***START BLOG POST***

While a high MCAT score is important, there are other signals on an application that can be just as determining. Volunteering is a very important component of one's application, I have learned. Applying for my home state, I was rejected without an interview despite my high numbers because of a dearth of volunteering. This raises the question: why is volunteering an important factor for committees? The simple answer is that it shows the applicant to be caring.

I reject this as being an insufficient explanation for two reasons. First of all, if an average person is put in a position of caring for others, it is natural and human for that person to want to comfort and aid his or her charges. It is only the psychopath who cares not for a fellow human's plight. Second is my belief that volunteering doesn't in fact show that an applicant is a caring person, nor does tender and sentimental language on a personal statement. Volunteering is just another time-investment for pre-medical students.

Instead, I propose the following two reasons for the importance of volunteering to medical school admission committees:

1) It shows that you are willing to 'jump through hoops'.

The growth of complexity in medical systems is a defining feature of modern medicine. Thus, for a doctor to effectively navigate the new realities, he or she must be willing to put up with the frustrations of a massive, credentialist system to reap its benefits. Volunteering is a way for a prospective student to show he or she is willing to do what the decision-makers require.

2) It gives you a look at what a hospital is like.

A clinical volunteer sees the environment of a physician's working life, the hospital. Thus, rounds as a 3rd and 4th year medical student aren't quite as much of a shock. They see the chaos of the environment, the self-dustructive patients, the massive impersonality of the modern medical center. This gives the student something to think about as they consider their future career path. However, I think there are limitations to the usefulness of such a preview. Any work environment becomes routine and eventually is barely perceived, while co-workers, supervisors and professional autonomy are what make or break a workplace experience.

What is lost?

Students who successfully navigate acceptance to medical school must be committed to medicine as a career. Ten-year retention rates are 96% and drop-outs have been trending downwards. These data taken alone are a staggering accomplishment. However, these facts shouldn't be observed in a vacuum.

The laundry list of resume-builders that medical schools require don't prepare students for medical school as much as it shows they want it at all cost. Course prerequisites don't reflect what is required to understand and use medical curricula. Research experience by pre-medical students is often half-hearted at best. Extracurricular activities are enriching to students but their transformative effects can easily be overstated. Medical mission trips are harmless photo-ops at best and imperialist at worst. The heaps of prerequisites that don't prepare a student but do increase retention also serve to alienate two groups of students.

Financially disadvantaged students are all but excluded from medical school admittance. All prerequisites take significant time and many take significant monetary resources as well. The existence of even the nominally free prerequisites favors wealthy students. Poorer students may not have as much time to devote to developing a pre-medical resume due to the need to work for subsistence.

Money is a huge barrier to a medical career. Medical school applications themselves are expensive, roughly $1,000 to apply to an average number of schools. The MCAT itself is $235 and wealthy students have access to specialized test prep courses which run at least $2,000 each. Airfare and lodging for medical school interviews is at least $500 each. Thus, a thrifty medical student may be able to enter med school on $5,000, without counting the opportunity cost of time committed to pre-medical resume building. There are some fee waivers, but this takes additional time and energy to prove and doesn't nearly cover the entirety of costs.

Poor or not, students who are more creative than direction-taking may rightly feel these requirements aren't necessary to develop into effective physicians. Thus, those who have unique ideas or are critical of the status quo are less likely to enter, promoting a homogeneous intellectual landscape.

I have shown that the average pre-medical student must submit to authority, have time and money to devote to pre-medical resume building and is less likely to be poor or creative than medical students in the years before the ballooning of prerequisites. This change is a result of an emphasis on retention. What I haven't heard, however, is a discussion of the fact that these changes are trade-offs and whether or not they are worth the cost.

***BLOG POST END***

I won't post the link to my blog because I'm afraid of getting banned for advertising but if you want to see it I can message it to you.

 

[Cherry212]

I applied to med school this summer and was rejected due to a 'lack of preparation for a medical career' at my home state university which heavily prefers instate students. I don't want to be perceived as bragging but my MCAT was 38 and GPA was 3.76 so that was definitely not the reason.

Since then I have been trying to get into volunteering positions at hospitals and I have to say it is almost as challenging as the job market is currently. I started looking for volunteering 2 months ago and I am invited to a volunteering orientation in about another month. What other people have said about these hospitals having a HUGE surplus of willing volunteers is definitely true in my experience. There is simply nowhere for the hospitals to put all of us aspiring pre-meds.

I had research and extracurricular experience but basically no volunteering, so I'd say the notion that volunteering is a 'silent' requirement is very well backed-up by my experience. I started a blog about my experience and this is one of my first posts for your perusal:

***START BLOG POST***

While a high MCAT score is important, there are other signals on an application that can be just as determining. Volunteering is a very important component of one's application, I have learned. Applying for my home state, I was rejected without an interview despite my high numbers because of a dearth of volunteering. This raises the question: why is volunteering an important factor for committees? The simple answer is that it shows the applicant to be caring.

I reject this as being an insufficient explanation for two reasons. First of all, if an average person is put in a position of caring for others, it is natural and human for that person to want to comfort and aid his or her charges. It is only the psychopath who cares not for a fellow human's plight. Second is my belief that volunteering doesn't in fact show that an applicant is a caring person, nor does tender and sentimental language on a personal statement. Volunteering is just another time-investment for pre-medical students.

Instead, I propose the following two reasons for the importance of volunteering to medical school admission committees:

1) It shows that you are willing to 'jump through hoops'.

The growth of complexity in medical systems is a defining feature of modern medicine. Thus, for a doctor to effectively navigate the new realities, he or she must be willing to put up with the frustrations of a massive, credentialist system to reap its benefits. Volunteering is a way for a prospective student to show he or she is willing to do what the decision-makers require.

2) It gives you a look at what a hospital is like.

A clinical volunteer sees the environment of a physician's working life, the hospital. Thus, rounds as a 3rd and 4th year medical student aren't quite as much of a shock. They see the chaos of the environment, the self-dustructive patients, the massive impersonality of the modern medical center. This gives the student something to think about as they consider their future career path. However, I think there are limitations to the usefulness of such a preview. Any work environment becomes routine and eventually is barely perceived, while co-workers, supervisors and professional autonomy are what make or break a workplace experience.

What is lost?

Students who successfully navigate acceptance to medical school must be committed to medicine as a career. Ten-year retention rates are 96% and drop-outs have been trending downwards. These data taken alone are a staggering accomplishment. However, these facts shouldn't be observed in a vacuum.

The laundry list of resume-builders that medical schools require don't prepare students for medical school as much as it shows they want it at all cost. Course prerequisites don't reflect what is required to understand and use medical curricula. Research experience by pre-medical students is often half-hearted at best. Extracurricular activities are enriching to students but their transformative effects can easily be overstated. Medical mission trips are harmless photo-ops at best and imperialist at worst. The heaps of prerequisites that don't prepare a student but do increase retention also serve to alienate two groups of students.

Financially disadvantaged students are all but excluded from medical school admittance. All prerequisites take significant time and many take significant monetary resources as well. The existence of even the nominally free prerequisites favors wealthy students. Poorer students may not have as much time to devote to developing a pre-medical resume due to the need to work for subsistence.

Money is a huge barrier to a medical career. Medical school applications themselves are expensive, roughly $1,000 to apply to an average number of schools. The MCAT itself is $235 and wealthy students have access to specialized test prep courses which run at least $2,000 each. Airfare and lodging for medical school interviews is at least $500 each. Thus, a thrifty medical student may be able to enter med school on $5,000, without counting the opportunity cost of time committed to pre-medical resume building. There are some fee waivers, but this takes additional time and energy to prove and doesn't nearly cover the entirety of costs.

Poor or not, students who are more creative than direction-taking may rightly feel these requirements aren't necessary to develop into effective physicians. Thus, those who have unique ideas or are critical of the status quo are less likely to enter, promoting a homogeneous intellectual landscape.

I have shown that the average pre-medical student must submit to authority, have time and money to devote to pre-medical resume building and is less likely to be poor or creative than medical students in the years before the ballooning of prerequisites. This change is a result of an emphasis on retention. What I haven't heard, however, is a discussion of the fact that these changes are trade-offs and whether or not they are worth the cost.

***BLOG POST END***

I won't post the link to my blog because I'm afraid of getting banned for advertising but if you want to see it I can message it to you.

Hi there mednem, welcome to SDN! I think you hit the nail right on the head there. I'm guessing you will probably be flamed by some of the members here, because they look at "resume-building" and not volunteering out of the sheer goodness of their hearts to be terrible.

It's a vicious cycle, and plenty of students go to great lengths. I had a 29Q on my MCAT. If I don't get in for this cycle, it looks like I will need to try again, and yet another year in the trenches of the ER. 🙄

You really nailed it when describing how volunteering does not necessarily that we are caring human beings or not. It is a pretty nasty hoop for some to jump through, which is especially rough on those who can't afford the thousands of dollars that it takes when starting up with just the pre-reqs. If I were working instead of volunteering in the ER, I would have and would be making quite a bit of much needed money right now. Now I'm waiting for the nay-sayers to tell me how I'm a terrible person and we all have some time to devote to volunteering. As Ive mentioned before, I volunteer through my church when I can.

Seeing that you were rejected with such stellar stats due to no volunteering is just ridiculous. Whether or not you jumped through the other hoops, it is still a big issue. I love it how some members will pretty much say that anyone who does not volunteer or doesn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts is a terrible person and will make a horrible physician.

Well let me tell you this. I have plenty of friends who were not premeds, and they never volunteered before. And you know what? These are some of the most caring people I know. I am proud to call them my friends. Volunteering does not make you a better person than someone who has not done it. I also don't quite understand this whole mentality that doctors need to be so ALTRUISTIC. In this country, for the exception of the free clinics and other charitable organizations, healthcare is run as a BUSINESS. If I went to the doctor's office and asked for free services, I'm sure I'd get laughed at and be booted out. When choosing a doctor, I don't ask them where they volunteer. I also don't think that they are complete jackasses if they didn't spend months of their time volunteering in some other part of the world. I'm sick and tired of this mentality that doctors owe society something.

Doctors are already giving so much. They first jump through all of these hoops, go through years of school, and then drown in hundreds of thousands in debt so that they can make a positive difference in peoples' lives. Then all of a sudden, it's a crime against humanity that doctors still want to receive good compensation after all this? Holy sweet Jesus! What is this world coming to?

Also one last thing. In another thread I posted in a while back, some accepted students said that they would continue to volunteer even after gaining an acceptance because its the RIGHT THING TO DO. Okay, so these accepted students are going to embark on this difficult journey where they will work their butts off for many years, and then help out our fellow human beings for a lifetime. If these future medical school students decide to not volunteer until matriculation, do you think that we can possibly cut them just A LITTLE slack? Do you think that maybe they can relax a little? Over there lifetime, they may possibly do things that are more meaningful than cleaning beds for free.

Whew! 😱

 

[mednem]

Thanks for reading through my post, it was pretty long and probably not that helpful for a lot of people here since it seems they are already pretty well informed about the hoops necessary for admission. I admire people who do volunteering because they genuinely feel they are helping, and there are many.

On the other hand, you point out that being compassionate/altruistic isn't necessary for being a doctor. I agree. A doctor doesn't need a bleeding heart BUT, he or she must still be able to treat patients like human beings and equals. One example of this was in the recent movie 50/50 when the oncologist walked in the room, first thing he did was pull out his dictophone and started talking into it, didn't introduce himself, didn't brace the patient for bad news etc etc. This is supposedly based on a true story but it's Hollywood not real life so keep that in mind.

I don't know whether to think it's ridiculous or not that I wasn't admitted. I was disappointed, but it also gives me a chance to examine my own motives. After all, the committee must have reasons, no?🙄 Of course there is always an element of chance as well: how is the reviewer's day going, did the person reading my application have a similar background to mine, etc etc.

Best of luck!😉

 

[Cherry212]

Thanks for reading through my post, it was pretty long and probably not that helpful for a lot of people here since it seems they are already pretty well informed about the hoops necessary for admission. I admire people who do volunteering because they genuinely feel they are helping, and there are many.

On the other hand, you point out that being compassionate/altruistic isn't necessary for being a doctor. I agree. A doctor doesn't need a bleeding heart BUT, he or she must still be able to treat patients like human beings and equals. One example of this was in the recent movie 50/50 when the oncologist walked in the room, first thing he did was pull out his dictophone and started talking into it, didn't introduce himself, didn't brace the patient for bad news etc etc. This is supposedly based on a true story but it's Hollywood not real life so keep that in mind.

I don't know whether to think it's ridiculous or not that I wasn't admitted. I was disappointed, but it also gives me a chance to examine my own motives. After all, the committee must have reasons, no?🙄 Of course there is always an element of chance as well: how is the reviewer's day going, did the person reading my application have a similar background to mine, etc etc.

Best of luck!😉

It was definitely helpful to hear your insights! I think some people tend to be naive about this too. So it's always good to hear these realistic perspectives.

I agree that doctors need to treat people like human beings. I want to be that kind of doctor. I just don't think that racking up hundreds of hours cleaning beds and stocking gloves would really help with that.

It's interesting you bring up the movie 50/50. I haven't seen it yet but definitely want to! At the end of the day though, if heaven forbid I was in the ER or suffering from a life-threatening illness, I would much rather have a complete a-hole treat me who is very good at what they do, than a friendly compassionate physician who does not possess the same level of abilities. Of course it's best to have both, but at the end of the day, I'm going to the doctor to be treated for an ailment, not to sit down to drink tea and eat crumpets with.

I don't think at this point it would even matter how many beds they've cleaned as premeds!

 

[Dzerzhinsky]

You really nailed it when describing how volunteering does not necessarily that we are caring human beings or not. It is a pretty nasty hoop for some to jump through, which is especially rough on those who can't afford the thousands of dollars that it takes when starting up with just the pre-reqs. If I were working instead of volunteering in the ER, I would have and would be making quite a bit of much needed money right now. Now I'm waiting for the nay-sayers to tell me how I'm a terrible person and we all have some time to devote to volunteering. As Ive mentioned before, I volunteer through my church when I can.

OK, I'll bite.

I'm a nontrad with a more-than-full-time job who took 14 credits of science this term, and I put in at least ten hours a week of volunteering.

How, exactly, is it that this "nasty hoop" is preventing you from working in addition to your four hours a week of volunteering? I don't understand.

 

[chiapet874]

Seems like a slippery slope to me. The fact that those students saw their cheating as "no big deal, just like speeding" is a major red flag! It basically tells you there is at least some lack of ethics on a fundamental level. It is the same with these volunteers signing in and out for their friends. It shows a lack of integrity, which is a major character flaw. Does this mean the person is unfit for medicine? Quite possibly, although to pass judgment without any further consideration would be a bit hasty.

you are too naive for this field.

 

[Cherry212]

OK, I'll bite.

I'm a nontrad with a more-than-full-time job who took 14 credits of science this term, and I put in at least ten hours a week of volunteering.

How, exactly, is it that this "nasty hoop" is preventing you from working in addition to your four hours a week of volunteering? I don't understand.

It sounds like you really got your act together, and are doing quite well. I know that not everyone is capable of having so much on their plate at the same time. There are students who end up doing far less work, go to medical school, and become brilliant doctors.

I see you do at least ten hours per week of volunteering. Based on what I've read and know from premeds personally, the standard gig for the non-gunner premed is four hours of volunteering per week. Why exactly did you choose to do more than those other students getting away with four?

Whether or not you are doing them for true altruistic reasons, you are doing more hours than the norm. As you can see, it becomes a race to the top. I have lurked for a while, and have seen plenty of students flaunt their many hours. I've seen quite a few well past the one thousand hour mark. Of course not everyone admits whether they do it out of sheer altruism. Also, what everyone seems to forget is the cost to the premed of undertaking all these hours. Will the premed have enough time to do well in their classes? Will the student have enough time to study for the MCAT? Unless you had a 4.0 in your pre-reqs and a 45T on your MCAT, you must realize that you could have spent more time improving your grades or MCAT score. When you spend all those hours volunteering, you definitely aren't spending them studying, unless you're one of those premeds that blows off volunteering in order to study (and by your post you definitely arent one of those types).

So think about what this race to the top might cost plenty of premeds. I have seen in threads where people rank ECs to be on the same level as GPA and MCAT. I think too many premeds, well at least on SDN, lose sight on the importance of things.

Great ECs will make a great student better, but they will not make a mediocre student a great student.

And also remember, there are plenty of premeds under the SDN radar (the general population) that most likely matriculates in the sub-100 hour category. Somehow, plenty of students make it in with so "few" hours.

So for those 1000 plus hour gunners, unless you had a 4.0 and 45T on your MCAT, can you really tell me that cleaning the sheets or other menial tasks were a better use of time then studying? Your goal is to get into medical school, not become a volunteering version of Rambo.

I was a Girl Scout as a child. Could I really be judged by the number of cookies I sold? Having sold the most cookies out of anyone else does not mean I will be a better doctor, nor does having thousands of volunteer hours, even if they really come from goodness of your heart. When you have minutes in the ER to save a crash victim's life, I don't think that knowing how to clean the bed will be of much use.

you are too naive for this field.

The disconnect between some SDN members and the rest of the premed population is quite huge. Playing the volunteer system is a huge issue, and is not localized to one school or group of people. In fact, it's not only a problem among premeds, but also among high school students who attempt to bypass their community service graduation requirements. I have looked at past threads here and talked to people I know, and see that these issues as rampant. What you don't hear about often is major cheating rings for the MCAT, USMLE, etc.

I was raised in a Christian household with strong moral values. I have never cheated on a college exam. I feel that if a medical student cheated on the USMLE and then ended up killing a patient, then of course that would be wrong. Somehow, when I hear stories about premeds playing the volunteer system in whichever way, it really doesn't affect me. It also doesn't change my respect for those people. I don't know why some members on SDN are up in arms about students who play the system, whether embellishing their hours or having someone sign them in on the computer.

On a side note, would someone care to clarify a question? I just looked back into my AMCAS, and am looking at the activities section. In an earlier post, I mentioned how a student I knew started volunteering by doing the minimum commitments (three months each) from freshman year until he filled out the AMCAS. He therefore did a year worth of actual volunteering, but was able to put a start and end date since it does not ask to specify the number of hours or any breaks taken. His valid argument is that its just bending the truth, since he's not directly lying about his commitment. Here is something a fellow SDN member wrote in response:

Except that you have to put down hours/week in the application. If you put only your maximum, that would be falsifying your hours.

I'm very confused. I volunteer four hours every week at the moment, and that is what I wrote. Lets assume I was asked about a full-time job that I worked 9 to 5 five days a week. Therefore, the average hours per week is 40. Now what would happen to the number if I worked that job for a year, but in the middle, I took two months off for maternity leave? Would I need to do some crazy algebra to come up with a number such as 32.7437 hours per week because of that break? A 40 hour a week job is a 40 hour a week job. I have never heard someone say that they work 32.7437 because they decide to include any time spent off of work. Therefore, how was he lying on his application when he worked four hours every week that he volunteered? He never put a total number, which was his way through the loophole. He just put a start and end date, stated that it was a four hour a week commitment, and never disclosed the nine month breaks in-between.

 

[music2doc]

you are too naive for this field.

Idealistic? Perhaps. Jaded? Absolutely. Naive? Not even close. I already work in healthcare (and have for a number of years). I dislike dishonesty and lack of ethical behavior. Those are the one group of people I will do everything in my power to hold back. I have no desire to work with such people. Nada. Do some enter medicine? Yes. Should they? No.

 

[music2doc]

It sounds like you really got your act together, and are doing quite well. I know that not everyone is capable of having so much on their plate at the same time. There are students who end up doing far less work, go to medical school, and become brilliant doctors.

I see you do at least ten hours per week of volunteering. Based on what I've read and know from premeds personally, the standard gig for the non-gunner premed is four hours of volunteering per week. Why exactly did you choose to do more than those other students getting away with four?

This wasn't in response to me, but I did similarly, so my response would be: why not?

Most weeks I volunteer 4-12 hours alongside my full-time job and full-time school commitments. I never even realized I was volunteering that much until I had to actually count the hours because I was a "pre-med" and suddenly it mattered. Likewise, I have some 5000 hours of clinical experience and easily over 1000 hours of volunteering, but it's not something I am thinking about. Why would I? What does it matter?

Whether or not you are doing them for true altruistic reasons, you are doing more hours than the norm. As you can see, it becomes a race to the top. I have lurked for a while, and have seen plenty of students flaunt their many hours. I've seen quite a few well past the one thousand hour mark. Of course not everyone admits whether they do it out of sheer altruism. Also, what everyone seems to forget is the cost to the premed of undertaking all these hours. Will the premed have enough time to do well in their classes? Will the student have enough time to study for the MCAT? Unless you had a 4.0 in your pre-reqs and a 45T on your MCAT, you must realize that you could have spent more time improving your grades or MCAT score. When you spend all those hours volunteering, you definitely aren't spending them studying, unless you're one of those premeds that blows off volunteering in order to study (and by your post you definitely arent one of those types).

Not everyone cares about achieving the highest numerical stats. Frankly, who gives a rat's a** what your MCAT score is. As long as it is good enough to get you into medical school it is completely irrelevant. Assuming you got something in the mid-30s or better and have a solid 3.7+ GPA, it really ceases to matter all that much.

So think about what this race to the top might cost plenty of premeds. I have seen in threads where people rank ECs to be on the same level as GPA and MCAT. I think too many premeds, well at least on SDN, lose sight on the importance of things.

Great ECs will make a great student better, but they will not make a mediocre student a great student.

You underestimate the power of ECs. From my experience, my ECs have put me on the same playing field as people with an MCAT about 2-4 points higher than me (based upon the students I have been interviewing with and my success in interviews).

So for those 1000 plus hour gunners, unless you had a 4.0 and 45T on your MCAT, can you really tell me that cleaning the sheets or other menial tasks were a better use of time then studying? Your goal is to get into medical school, not become a volunteering version of Rambo.

Who said anyone was doing menial tasks? You don't know what any individual applicant has done for ECs. I've led EMS squads, assisted in minor surgical procedures, performed EKGs, trained techs, assisted in writing clinical protocols, etc. as a volunteer. I don't give patients water or bring them warm blankets....

I was a Girl Scout as a child. Could I really be judged by the number of cookies I sold? Having sold the most cookies out of anyone else does not mean I will be a better doctor, nor does having thousands of volunteer hours, even if they really come from goodness of your heart. When you have minutes in the ER to save a crash victim's life, I don't think that knowing how to clean the bed will be of much use.

No, but knowing what it's like to be on the bottom will be. You're not the one saving the patient's life. You are part of a team assisting in that patient's recovery. Your ability to relate to the many techs and RNs in that trauma room is going to be what is vital. An important part of that will be your experience having been where they are now. If they view you as an ally, they will help you. If they view you as some high and mighty doctor, they may not be as helpful when you need it most.

The disconnect between some SDN members and the rest of the premed population is quite huge. Playing the volunteer system is a huge issue, and is not localized to one school or group of people. In fact, it's not only a problem among premeds, but also among high school students who attempt to bypass their community service graduation requirements. I have looked at past threads here and talked to people I know, and see that these issues as rampant. What you don't hear about often is major cheating rings for the MCAT, USMLE, etc.

I was raised in a Christian household with strong moral values. I have never cheated on a college exam. I feel that if a medical student cheated on the USMLE and then ended up killing a patient, then of course that would be wrong. Somehow, when I hear stories about premeds playing the volunteer system in whichever way, it really doesn't affect me. It also doesn't change my respect for those people. I don't know why some members on SDN are up in arms about students who play the system, whether embellishing their hours or having someone sign them in on the computer.

Unethical behavior tends to occur in patterns. People who lack the moral compass to not cheat through volunteering may be more likely to cheat elsewhere (such as in reimbursements, which would be a fairly direct analogue to the hours volunteering issue).

On a side note, would someone care to clarify a question? I just looked back into my AMCAS, and am looking at the activities section. In an earlier post, I mentioned how a student I knew started volunteering by doing the minimum commitments (three months each) from freshman year until he filled out the AMCAS. He therefore did a year worth of actual volunteering, but was able to put a start and end date since it does not ask to specify the number of hours or any breaks taken. His valid argument is that its just bending the truth, since he's not directly lying about his commitment. Here is something a fellow SDN member wrote in response:



I'm very confused. I volunteer four hours every week at the moment, and that is what I wrote. Lets assume I was asked about a full-time job that I worked 9 to 5 five days a week. Therefore, the average hours per week is 40. Now what would happen to the number if I worked that job for a year, but in the middle, I took two months off for maternity leave? Would I need to do some crazy algebra to come up with a number such as 32.7437 hours per week because of that break? A 40 hour a week job is a 40 hour a week job. I have never heard someone say that they work 32.7437 because they decide to include any time spent off of work. Therefore, how was he lying on his application when he worked four hours every week that he volunteered? He never put a total number, which was his way through the loophole. He just put a start and end date, stated that it was a four hour a week commitment, and never disclosed the nine month breaks in-between.

I don't think going through such calculations would be reasonable. I would consider it a good faith estimate. That is, 40 hours/wk for 4 years with 2 months off for maternity leave and an annual 3 weeks off for vacation would be quite reasonable. On the other hand, working only 3 months each year for 4 hrs/wk for 4 yrs is obviously not 4 hrs/wk for 4 years. It's closer to 1 hr/wk for that same period of time (although not even really as good as that since it's so on and off).

 

[scarshapedstar]

I volunteer at a free primary care clinic for the homeless and love it. It's a small enough operation that I really do make a difference, and I count some of the regulars among my friends. I wasn't sure what to expect at first but it's been my coming-of-age as a premed. During the first month or two I just checked in patients and such, then I was asked if I wanted to shadow a doctor, and now I count meds and generally do anything that helps the doctors see more patients. I see some interesting things from time to time, too.

I did the hospital thing and while everyone was friendly to me, they didn't really need the help and I got that guilty feeling of busywork and resume-padding. And I've never understood the point of saying that you spend 30 hours shadowing a brain surgeon or whatever, aside from proving that you have the requisite intestinal fortitude to watch such things up close.

 

[scarshapedstar]

I also don't quite understand this whole mentality that doctors need to be so ALTRUISTIC. In this country, for the exception of the free clinics and other charitable organizations***, healthcare is run as a BUSINESS.

In this country. In other countries, nobody is baffled by the notion of an altruistic healer.

😕

***Also the VA. Also medicare. Also medicaid. Along with a few other noteworthy programs like COBRA, SCHIP, etc, these combine to pay substantially more medical bills (47% of the total) than the private insurance industry (35%). But that 35% is a free**** market!

****Specifically exempted from all antitrust regulations, a luxury afforded to only one other industry... major league baseball.

 

[mednem]

@scarshapedstar: Altruistic healers in other countries? Doctors are still well-rewarded in Europe. Less so than here, but they don't have quite the tuition burden.

I'd guess that most people would rather have the doctor whose results are the best, whether or not that correlates to altruism. Altruism is a good thing in health care, but I think it's most important as it relates to trust-building between doctor & patient (google: 'doctor patient relationship effect on outcomes'). So, while altruism is a good thing, I think that competence and commitment to job performance are more important in the context of modern health care.

If altruism=selflessness, then I take it you want doctors out at free clinics, which is great! However, it's not a model for a national health system. I'm all for individual mandate & subsidized insurance, but I think a doctor doesn't need altruism any more than, say, a lawyer. I'd rather have a compassionate & efficient system than a few saintly docs out there pushing against the tides of disease.

tl;dr: IMO, altruism is emphasized over competence/job performance.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean or condescending and I'd love to hear your opinions. 🙂