Why soo few blacks in medicine ?

[vnicolas]

I was wondering why are there so few blacks in medicine...is there not enough qualified applicants or is there a cap limit?

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[voidlogin]

I'm not a African American, but there's no "cap" in medicine. In fact if you're an AA, you'll have better chance of getting in than someone white or asian with same grades. There are few reasons there are less AA in medicine, most importantly: In order to be a doctor, you have to focus on your studies since high school till you're 30 (by the time you become an attending) and cant hold any side jobs (as any working time would be better spent doing research, volunteering ect.) Most people are not willing to spend their entire 20's not earning anything and getting 200+k in debt.

 

[MDPhDJourney]

easy answer?

slavery > jim crow era > educational & financial disadvantages

 

[Bigz]

I'm not a African American, but there's no "cap" in medicine. In fact if you're an AA, you'll have better chance of getting in than someone white or asian with same grades. There are few reasons there are less AA in medicine, most importantly: In order to be a doctor, you have to focus on your studies since high school till you're 30 (by the time you become an attending) and cant hold any side jobs (as any working time would be better spent doing research, volunteering ect.) Most people are not willing to spend their entire 20's not earning anything and getting 200+k in debt.

In my view it is a combination of factors that has very little to do with 200k+ debt or not willing to spend 20's in school. In my class of 175 there are six blacks a mere 3.4% in a state with over 12% black population. I think a lot of us go to college with dreams as a premed and then fizzle out. My take is that in most cases their high schools have not adequately prepared them for premed course work. There are a lot o inadequate high schools in black neighborhoods. I do recognize there are other factors as well such as financial disadvantages and lack of exposure. What I have notice is that in my class most people seem to have parents, aunts, uncles , siblings, Spouse ,grandparents or close family member as physician. When I was looking for a physician to shadow it was hard. Only a few black physicians actually returned my call. and one o them wrote a letter for me.

 

[Espadaleader]

I'm not a African American, but there's no "cap" in medicine. In fact if you're an AA, you'll have better chance of getting in than someone white or asian with same grades. There are few reasons there are less AA in medicine, most importantly: In order to be a doctor, you have to focus on your studies since high school till you're 30 (by the time you become an attending) and cant hold any side jobs (as any working time would be better spent doing research, volunteering ect.) Most people are not willing to spend their entire 20's not earning anything and getting 200+k in debt.

Blacks have a lower chance of getting accepted than Whites and Asians as a whole. This is from the applicant vs. matriculation data by race. However , If GPA is above 3.6 MCAT above 30 Blacks have 90%+ acceptance rate. This is from Black acceptance grid. All on AAMC website.

 

[Telekinesis]

Blacks have a lower chance of getting accepted than Whites and Asians as a whole. This is from the applicant vs. matriculation data by race. However , If GPA is above 3.6 MCAT above 30 Blacks have 90%+ acceptance rate. This is from Black acceptance grid. All on AAMC website.

This is the first I ever heard of this. Maybe you didn't read the data correctly.

 

[DrYoda]

This is the first I ever heard of this. Maybe you didn't read the data correctly.

It's correct, it's just not a very useful statistic for comparison since there is a large difference between the average MCAT/GPAs of the two groups.

for 2010, 37.8% of African Americans applicants were accepted vs. 48.4% of whites.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

Average stats for the two applicant groups are 22.2/3.26 and 29.0/3.58.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

 

[Telekinesis]

It's correct, it's just not a very useful statistic for comparison since there is a large difference between the average MCAT/GPAs of the two groups.

for 2010, 37.8% of African Americans applicants were accepted vs. 48.4% of whites.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

Average stats for the two applicant groups are 22.2/3.26 and 29.0/3.58.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

Well yea but stats are a poor representation in my opinion. If one applies smart and broadly that should net should acceptances. Not to mention having ECs that count.

 

[gostudy]

Simple answer: not that many black students are applying to begin with. Couple this with what I call the "two step process" of getting in to med school. You will be hard pressed to find med students that don't have at least one parent that attended college. And, as previously mentioned many med students have someone in their family that is a physician. Med school is not something like say, law school. It is literally an 11+ year journey to become a practicing physician if you include the pre-reqs as and undergrad and the shortest residency programs. Take, law. No undergrad pre-reqs. Finish law school in 3 years. Pass the bar. And you can pretty much set up shop.

Because medicine is such a long process, mentorship is absolutely essential to learn how to traverse the many obstacles set forth for a pre-med. If one has no parents that went to college, then med school is pretty much out for them (not impossible but extremely difficult).* Chances are that if at least one parent went to college they roll in somewhat professional circles where they encounter physicians. By either direct mentorship or inderect mentorship (the physician offering advice to the parent and then the parent to the child) the child can begin to be steered in the right direction. You will be hard pressed to find any med student/resident/physician (of any race) who did not have some sort of significant experience with a physician while growing up. This relationship with the physician serves not only to pique a kid's interest in medicine but to also help steer the kid in the right direction.

Sure there were your Alexander Twighlights and John Russworms, but black people didn't start going to college en masse until the baby boomer generation. Therefore it's not until generation X/Y when it became possible for blacks to attend med school en masse via the "two step" theory.

The other thing is that, in my opinion, many in the black community are less patient than other ethnic/racial groups...i.e. the get rich quick mindset. Again, this does not apply to everyone, just a generalization. A process that requires (in addition to 4 years of college), going deeper into debt four consecutive years, and then having no means to pay off that debt for at least 3 years (because or residency) may not look as attractive as going to a good B-school for a couple of years or a law school good law school for 3 years and then immediately making 6 figure salaries. Never mind that doctoring is, and has been for a long time, the surest professional path to an excellent salary with flexible lifestyle (if one so chooses).

*N.B. that this excludes 2nd generation immigrants who I believe receive a disproportional amount of drive and desire from their parents compared to their American counterparts such that mentorship outside the family unit is less important. The ability of immigrant families to come to the States and take advantage of its opportunities while blacks who have been for centuries fail to take advantage of such opportunities is a discussion for another thread.

 

[gostudy]

It's correct, it's just not a very useful statistic for comparison since there is a large difference between the average MCAT/GPAs of the two groups.

for 2010, 37.8% of African Americans applicants were accepted vs. 48.4% of whites.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

Average stats for the two applicant groups are 22.2/3.26 and 29.0/3.58.
source: https://www.aamc.org/download/161194/data/table12-facts0710sumyrs-web.pdf.pdf

I'd like to see data that controls for GPA/MCAT. I find it hard to believe that admission rates are lower for URMs compared to whites and East/South Asians when you control for GPA/MCAT.

 

[Telekinesis]

Simple answer: not that many black students are applying to begin with. Couple this with what I call the "two step process" of getting in to med school. You will be hard pressed to find med students that don't have at least one parent that attended college. And, as previously mentioned many med students have someone in their family that is a physician. Med school is not something like say, law school. It is literally an 11+ year journey to become a practicing physician if you include the pre-reqs as and undergrad and the shortest residency programs. Take, law. No undergrad pre-reqs. Finish law school in 3 years. Pass the bar. And you can pretty much set up shop.

Because medicine is such a long process, mentorship is absolutely essential to learn how to traverse the many obstacles set forth for a pre-med. If one has no parents that went to college, then med school is pretty much out for them (not impossible but extremely difficult).* Chances are that if at least one parent went to college they roll in somewhat professional circles where they encounter physicians. By either direct mentorship or inderect mentorship (the physician offering advice to the parent and then the parent to the child) the child can begin to be steered in the right direction. You will be hard pressed to find any med student/resident/physician (of any race) who did not have some sort of significant experience with a physician while growing up. This relationship with the physician serves not only to pique a kid's interest in medicine but to also help steer the kid in the right direction.

Sure there were your Alexander Twighlights and John Russworms, but black people didn't start going to college en masse until the baby boomer generation. Therefore it's not until generation X/Y when it became possible for blacks to attend med school en masse via the "two step" theory.

The other thing is that, in my opinion, many in the black community are less patient than other ethnic/racial groups...i.e. the get rich quick mindset. Again, this does not apply to everyone, just a generalization. A process that requires (in addition to 4 years of college), going deeper into debt four consecutive years, and then having no means to pay off that debt for at least 3 years (because or residency) may not look as attractive as going to a good B-school for a couple of years or a law school good law school for 3 years and then immediately making 6 figure salaries. Never mind that doctoring is, and has been for a long time, the surest professional path to an excellent salary with flexible lifestyle (if one so chooses).

*N.B. that this excludes 2nd generation immigrants who I believe receive a disproportional amount of drive and desire from their parents compared to their American counterparts such that mentorship outside the family unit is less important. The ability of immigrant families to come to the States and take advantage of its opportunities while blacks who have been for centuries fail to take advantage of such opportunities is a discussion for another thread.

Excellent post! Says everything that needs to be said.

 

[Sinclaire]

I'd like to see data that controls for GPA/MCAT. I find it hard to believe that admission rates are lower for URMs compared to whites and East/South Asians when you control for GPA/MCAT.

This chart might help:

Table 19: MCAT Scores and GPAs for Applicants and Matriculants to U.S. Medical Schools by Race and Ethnicity, 2010

https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

I divided # of matriculants by # of applicants from the chart and got this:
White: 45.55%
Black/African-American: 38.34%
Asian: 43.89%

 

[gostudy]

This chart might help:

Table 19: MCAT Scores and GPAs for Applicants and Matriculants to U.S. Medical Schools by Race and Ethnicity, 2010

https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

I divided # of matriculants by # of applicants from the chart and got this:
White: 45.55%
Black/African-American: 38.34%
Asian: 43.89%

Unless I'm not looking at things right, that chart just lists applicants and matriculants, it doesn't show matched scores. That is, there is no data breaking down the matriculation rate among the races for a given MCAT/GPA.

 

[Sinclaire]

Unless I'm not looking at things right, that chart just lists applicants and matriculants, it doesn't show matched scores. That is, there is no data breaking down the matriculation rate among the races for a given MCAT/GPA.

Oh, I thought you were looking for average overall MCAT/GPA instead of MCAT/GPA grid acceptance style.

This what you meant?

Table 25: MCAT and GPA Grid for Applicants and Acceptees by Selected Race and Ethnicity, 2008 to 2010 (aggregated)

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[gostudy]

Oh, I thought you were looking for average overall MCAT/GPA instead of MCAT/GPA grid acceptance style.

This what you meant?

Table 25: MCAT and GPA Grid for Applicants and Acceptees by Selected Race and Ethnicity, 2008 to 2010 (aggregated)

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

Yep that's the one. Thanks for posting. Just via eyeballing it's pretty clear that for close to (if not all) MCAT/GPA combinations URMs get in at a higher rate than whites/Asians...it's just that more URMs score on the left side of the bell curve compared to whites/Asians. Moral of the story is that URMs DO have an advantage in getting in. Though that's not any sort of novel concept.

 

[Bigz]

Simple answer: not that many black students are applying to begin with. Couple this with what I call the "two step process" of getting in to med school. You will be hard pressed to find med students that don't have at least one parent that attended college. And, as previously mentioned many med students have someone in their family that is a physician. Med school is not something like say, law school. It is literally an 11+ year journey to become a practicing physician if you include the pre-reqs as and undergrad and the shortest residency programs. Take, law. No undergrad pre-reqs. Finish law school in 3 years. Pass the bar. And you can pretty much set up shop.

Because medicine is such a long process, mentorship is absolutely essential to learn how to traverse the many obstacles set forth for a pre-med. If one has no parents that went to college, then med school is pretty much out for them (not impossible but extremely difficult).* Chances are that if at least one parent went to college they roll in somewhat professional circles where they encounter physicians. By either direct mentorship or inderect mentorship (the physician offering advice to the parent and then the parent to the child) the child can begin to be steered in the right direction. You will be hard pressed to find any med student/resident/physician (of any race) who did not have some sort of significant experience with a physician while growing up. This relationship with the physician serves not only to pique a kid's interest in medicine but to also help steer the kid in the right direction.

Sure there were your Alexander Twighlights and John Russworms, but black people didn't start going to college en masse until the baby boomer generation. Therefore it's not until generation X/Y when it became possible for blacks to attend med school en masse via the "two step" theory.

The other thing is that, in my opinion, many in the black community are less patient than other ethnic/racial groups...i.e. the get rich quick mindset. Again, this does not apply to everyone, just a generalization. A process that requires (in addition to 4 years of college), going deeper into debt four consecutive years, and then having no means to pay off that debt for at least 3 years (because or residency) may not look as attractive as going to a good B-school for a couple of years or a law school good law school for 3 years and then immediately making 6 figure salaries. Never mind that doctoring is, and has been for a long time, the surest professional path to an excellent salary with flexible lifestyle (if one so chooses).

*N.B. that this excludes 2nd generation immigrants who I believe receive a disproportional amount of drive and desire from their parents compared to their American counterparts such that mentorship outside the family unit is less important. The ability of immigrant families to come to the States and take advantage of its opportunities while blacks who have been for centuries fail to take advantage of such opportunities is a discussion for another thread.

Well said. There is one African immigrant in my class. Dude has been in the states 6 years most as an international student and just got green card less than a year ago. During orientations he was asking upper class-men whether it was possible to work. Man still got family to support back in his native land. Got such respect or his drive and determination.

 

[MEDCandy]

Simple answer: not that many black students are applying to begin with. Couple this with what I call the "two step process" of getting in to med school. You will be hard pressed to find med students that don't have at least one parent that attended college. And, as previously mentioned many med students have someone in their family that is a physician. Med school is not something like say, law school. It is literally an 11+ year journey to become a practicing physician if you include the pre-reqs as and undergrad and the shortest residency programs. Take, law. No undergrad pre-reqs. Finish law school in 3 years. Pass the bar. And you can pretty much set up shop.

Because medicine is such a long process, mentorship is absolutely essential to learn how to traverse the many obstacles set forth for a pre-med. If one has no parents that went to college, then med school is pretty much out for them (not impossible but extremely difficult).* Chances are that if at least one parent went to college they roll in somewhat professional circles where they encounter physicians. By either direct mentorship or inderect mentorship (the physician offering advice to the parent and then the parent to the child) the child can begin to be steered in the right direction. You will be hard pressed to find any med student/resident/physician (of any race) who did not have some sort of significant experience with a physician while growing up. This relationship with the physician serves not only to pique a kid's interest in medicine but to also help steer the kid in the right direction.

Sure there were your Alexander Twighlights and John Russworms, but black people didn't start going to college en masse until the baby boomer generation. Therefore it's not until generation X/Y when it became possible for blacks to attend med school en masse via the "two step" theory.

The other thing is that, in my opinion, many in the black community are less patient than other ethnic/racial groups...i.e. the get rich quick mindset. Again, this does not apply to everyone, just a generalization. A process that requires (in addition to 4 years of college), going deeper into debt four consecutive years, and then having no means to pay off that debt for at least 3 years (because or residency) may not look as attractive as going to a good B-school for a couple of years or a law school good law school for 3 years and then immediately making 6 figure salaries. Never mind that doctoring is, and has been for a long time, the surest professional path to an excellent salary with flexible lifestyle (if one so chooses).

*N.B. that this excludes 2nd generation immigrants who I believe receive a disproportional amount of drive and desire from their parents compared to their American counterparts such that mentorship outside the family unit is less important. The ability of immigrant families to come to the States and take advantage of its opportunities while blacks who have been for centuries fail to take advantage of such opportunities is a discussion for another thread.

I couldn't agree more with this

 

[mTOR]

Simple answer: not that many black students are applying to begin with. Couple this with what I call the "two step process" of getting in to med school. You will be hard pressed to find med students that don't have at least one parent that attended college. And, as previously mentioned many med students have someone in their family that is a physician. Med school is not something like say, law school. It is literally an 11+ year journey to become a practicing physician if you include the pre-reqs as and undergrad and the shortest residency programs. Take, law. No undergrad pre-reqs. Finish law school in 3 years. Pass the bar. And you can pretty much set up shop.

Because medicine is such a long process, mentorship is absolutely essential to learn how to traverse the many obstacles set forth for a pre-med. If one has no parents that went to college, then med school is pretty much out for them (not impossible but extremely difficult).* Chances are that if at least one parent went to college they roll in somewhat professional circles where they encounter physicians. By either direct mentorship or inderect mentorship (the physician offering advice to the parent and then the parent to the child) the child can begin to be steered in the right direction. You will be hard pressed to find any med student/resident/physician (of any race) who did not have some sort of significant experience with a physician while growing up. This relationship with the physician serves not only to pique a kid's interest in medicine but to also help steer the kid in the right direction.

Sure there were your Alexander Twighlights and John Russworms, but black people didn't start going to college en masse until the baby boomer generation. Therefore it's not until generation X/Y when it became possible for blacks to attend med school en masse via the "two step" theory.

The other thing is that, in my opinion, many in the black community are less patient than other ethnic/racial groups...i.e. the get rich quick mindset. Again, this does not apply to everyone, just a generalization. A process that requires (in addition to 4 years of college), going deeper into debt four consecutive years, and then having no means to pay off that debt for at least 3 years (because or residency) may not look as attractive as going to a good B-school for a couple of years or a law school good law school for 3 years and then immediately making 6 figure salaries. Never mind that doctoring is, and has been for a long time, the surest professional path to an excellent salary with flexible lifestyle (if one so chooses).

*N.B. that this excludes 2nd generation immigrants who I believe receive a disproportional amount of drive and desire from their parents compared to their American counterparts such that mentorship outside the family unit is less important. The ability of immigrant families to come to the States and take advantage of its opportunities while blacks who have been for centuries fail to take advantage of such opportunities is a discussion for another thread.

For the most part, I agree with the first 2 paragraphs where you highlight socioeconomic isolation (i.e., no contact with members of the professional class) for being a primary driver of the trends.

The remainder of the post, however, gets onto some shaky ground. Discussing cultural factors without mentioning structural factors when it comes to societal outcomes needs to be done with care*

*given the politically sensitive nature of the topic and its relevance to public policy decision making (i.e., conservatives will tend to focus too narrowly on cultural factors "why should I pay for their laziness???" while liberals will tend to focus too narrowly on structural factors "Schools need more money!!!"). Not to mention it's just plain disingenuous to talk about one without the other lmao

 

[Morsetlis]

easy answer?

slavery > jim crow era > educational & financial disadvantages

You could also synthesize that to a positive feedback loop of socioeconomic oppression.

I'm so glad Asian people are mentioned as a slash after white people now, though. It's almost like we're interchangeable, or something.

 

[Doctor246853]

easy answer?

slavery > jim crow era > educational & financial disadvantages

Mostly this but also community surroundings, mindsets, not many rolemodels, I could go on and on. My brother and I talk about this all the time.

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

gostudy is pretty much right on with his post. I'm black... but i was lucky enough to be born to a mom who had gone to college to get her 2 year nursing degree (paid for by her time in the air force) so she had contact with docs and would tell me about what she did. that was my first inkling that i could be one. Her parents never went to college... they used to pick cotton as sharecroppers in Mississippi. I'm not there yet... but i guess i'm step 2. Problem is though, i notice the vast majority of my counterparts (black males) are caught in a loop they cant get out of so while i'm here.. doing what i do is the exception. I go to a private college, 30+ students per 300 level class of mine (18 hours)... and there's no other african american males in any of my classes. 1 african girl nursing major in my anatomy class.

 

[HM3]

No role models and piss poor attitudes. That and the fact that medicine is the opposite of "get-rich-quick".

 

[MEDCandy]

I feel like there is a lack of support for such aspirations. At least for me coming from inner city Detroit, just merely saying I want to be a Doctor is enough for people to say "oh wow that's really good". So from that point you think you're doing the right thing which is sadly not the case. Just saying you want to be a doctor or you're pre-med means nothing everywhere else but in my opinion the urban community. When you get to college you soon realize you're in for much more than I bargain for because no one else from my community had a clue how to become a doctor let alone guide someone else.

That's probably extremely deterring for most African American that have been praised just for going to college in the first place. Without the proper support and role models to show AAs that being a doctor or any other high professional career is a very long challenging road, you will get a lot of unprepared AA students that ultimately don't make it or decide to go another route.

I think if we have more people willing to mentor AA youth that are interested in medicine starting in high school than that trend can change drastically. I myself am now finally getting the proper guidance for becoming a doctor and I now see that I was going about it all wrong. Now I know I can be successful but I definitely wish I knew a lot of what I know now back in highschool so that I could compete better than I did. All and all you have to have the drive within yourself but if you are misguided, you will waste a lot of time and energy doing the wrong things which can be a extremely detrimental.

 

[Morsetlis]

Praise are for grade-school.

If you wanted, you could get a sycophantic girlfriend/boyfriend that'll laud your everyday achievements.

 

[Medicinewoman85]

There are so few blacks for a number of reasons. Most black kids don't have positive influences that they look up to. Their influences are rappers and getting rich the easiest and quickest way. Many have grown up in areas that are so disadvantaged that even when they become adults they feel like there is only one way to live. I've worked in law enforcement for the last 7 years and I can tell you that these young black men feel as if there is no hope. Its a vicious cycle they can't seem to find their way out of.

 

[MEDCandy]

Praise are for grade-school.

If you wanted, you could get a sycophantic girlfriend/boyfriend that'll laud your everyday achievements.

I'm not sure if that common was for me but I was saying the praise was bad bc it makes for false feeling of achievement ie me saying a person getting praised for simple going to college. I meant that we should heighten the standards for the urban youth.

 

[flodhi1]

Malcolm X once said and I will paraphrase this, when you live in a poor neighborhood you have poor schools. When you have impoverished schools you have poor/low paid teachers. When you have poor teachers you have poor education. When you have poor education you have a poor paying job. When you have a poor paying job you live in a poor neighborhood. This is what he defined as a vicious cycle that African Americans tend to get caught up in.

 

[Sammy8321]

Malcolm X once said and I will paraphrase this, when you live in a poor neighborhood you have poor schools. When you have impoverished schools you have poor/low paid teachers. When you have poor teachers you have poor education. When you have poor education you have a poor paying job. When you have a poor paying job you live in a poor neighborhood. This is what he defined as a vicious cycle that African Americans tend to get caught up in.

Can you cite empirical evidence that when the goverment spends more money on education, this leads to better results? I can cite many that it does not. Look at the case of Kansas City schools when a judge forced them to spend as much as the suburbs. The results were funny but sad, olympic size swimming pools and international field trips with no increase in test scores. But plenty of union members and bosses made money.

Another point, large cities spend the same on every pupil in the city, white or black, rich or poor, yet there's the same disparity in test scores along racial lines.

Let me ask you this. If you get a bad meal at a restaurant, do you go back? Sadly, blacks are forced to return to broken schools with tenured teachers because they have NO CHOICE.

Imagine if the restaurant industry was run this way, the cooks and servers can never get fired, people who are poor have no other choice but to go there, and the person in charge is a politician who wins an election. As you can imagine, the food and the service would be awful.

Government funded voucher programs have been hugely successful in DC. They took kids from broken homes and put them in college at rates far and above public schools, and did it with far less money. But Obama put an end to this, didn't fit with his political need to kiss up to the unions, and didn't fit with his grand vision of a government run utopian society.

Where are all the protesters and activists that "care about blacks" on this one? Oh, thats right, they were never fed propaganda that ending vouchers is evil.

 

[evans2000]

I am a black from west Africa. I am in a US school right now for my undergraduate in chemistry and biology (premed). I don't see anything difficult in both US undergraduate and medical school. Schooling here is very easy compared to where I am coming from. I was brought up in the British system of a 6 3 3 6 from kindergarten to high school. If you are an American student and could score A's and graduate with a 3.0 and above in that British system in my country then you are a genius. To earn an A over there is 70% but most American schools are 90%. But I bet you if you could score that 70% over there then schooling in America would be a **** for you. But all am saying is that most of the Africans who came here have the zeal for school than the AA. For me the only problem I am going to be having is how i will be able to get a Loan for my medical education. They said is tough because I am neither a citizen nor a permanent resident. help please

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

^ "help please" Hahahaha... Right after you call us all dumb... "help please" LOL.. good luck finding that 200 grand to show them you have the funds available buddy.

 

[Wisdomphilia]

^ "help please" Hahahaha... Right after you call us all dumb... "help please" LOL.. good luck finding that 200 grand to show them you have the funds available buddy.

Evans 2000 said." If you are an American student and could score A's and graduate with a 3.0 and above in that British system in my country then you are a genius. To earn an A over there is 70% but most American schools are 90%. But I bet you if you could score that 70% over there then schooling in America would be a **** for you.


Chill out man,he didn't call anyone dumb.VR

 

[evans2000]

Hey guys I didn't say you guys are dummy sorry lol...I only said the british system is tougher haha! I didn't meant to hurt anyone's feelings, I am just telling you my experiences...Sorry guys!

 

[Morsetlis]

The British system is tougher. It's because of all the rain.

 

[deleted390966]

Black people don't comprise a large percentage of the general population.

 

[Bancrofti]

As a black student from a lower middle class background I think it's largely because of a 2 reasons: finance related issues and educational issues.

#1
For people like myself, the middle class, and people worse off than I, there are limited ways to look at life when your providers live paycheck to paycheck. I am definitely not poor, but countless times growing up I can remember being hungry, asking my mom if she can go food shopping only to have her respond that she doesn't get paid until the end of the week so we'd have to figure something out with whatever is there. Now when it comes time to make a decision on what you want to be, are you going to want to get out of a crappy situation and be able to help yourself and your family quickly? Or would you rather put yourself through even more rough times for something that may not even be an interest.
I worked my way through college. I did this without a second though as both of my parents worked through college and neither of them were born here. In West Indian culture, and I'm sure many others, you should do better than your parents did. I know MANY other black kids who worked there way through college. I went to a fairly diverse university. If you take a handful of general students and sample them I believe you'll find that kids of all different races are working to supplement or pay for school. However, take a sample of diverse pre-medical students... in my experience you'll only find black & latino students working for money to pay for school. I was part of a pretty large organization of pre-medical students and it might not help that I went to a decent school but I literally can't recall any white student, indian student, or asian student who ever had an issue with money. When you can focus on your studies and use your free time to volunteer, do research, or relax, it makes the grueling pre-medical process a bit easier.
Some students may even think they won't be able to afford it. I certainly still have that concern. My mother had to file for bankruptcy my sophomore year and my dad also has horrible credit (though he doesn't even own a credit card). I tried to get a loan with a cosigner for my junior year so that I could save time by staying on campus instead of commuting and was told I did not qualify.

#2
Education. The difference in how students are treated from a young age, what resources they have, and what is expected from them in predominantly black schools versus predominantly white schools is drastically different. I already spent to much time typing but I'll leave it at that since I believe many people take this into consideration already. I have a younger brother who just transferred from a local school here which is all minorities to one town over where he is one town over but is now the only black kid in his homeroom and one of the that he says he's seen in the school. The resources he has available to him in the school are amazing compared to the last. For example, his music teacher (music dep. cut in last school) said my brother is pretty good at the sax but gets nervous when he begins to play so to bring him by before school and he'll help him out with getting comfortable. Not once ever would something like that be offered in the other school system. Btw, this transfer was also not illegal.. my parents are divorced and have joint custody.

 

[Starlightembers]

As a black student from a lower middle class background I think it's largely because of a 2 reasons: finance related issues and educational issues.

#1
For people like myself, the middle class, and people worse off than I, there are limited ways to look at life when your providers live paycheck to paycheck. I am definitely not poor, but countless times growing up I can remember being hungry, asking my mom if she can go food shopping only to have her respond that she doesn't get paid until the end of the week so we'd have to figure something out with whatever is there. Now when it comes time to make a decision on what you want to be, are you going to want to get out of a crappy situation and be able to help yourself and your family quickly? Or would you rather put yourself through even more rough times for something that may not even be an interest.
I worked my way through college. I did this without a second though as both of my parents worked through college and neither of them were born here. In West Indian culture, and I'm sure many others, you should do better than your parents did. I know MANY other black kids who worked there way through college. I went to a fairly diverse university. If you take a handful of general students and sample them I believe you'll find that kids of all different races are working to supplement or pay for school. However, take a sample of diverse pre-medical students... in my experience you'll only find black & latino students working for money to pay for school. I was part of a pretty large organization of pre-medical students and it might not help that I went to a decent school but I literally can't recall any white student, indian student, or asian student who ever had an issue with money. When you can focus on your studies and use your free time to volunteer, do research, or relax, it makes the grueling pre-medical process a bit easier.
Some students may even think they won't be able to afford it. I certainly still have that concern. My mother had to file for bankruptcy my sophomore year and my dad also has horrible credit (though he doesn't even own a credit card). I tried to get a loan with a cosigner for my junior year so that I could save time by staying on campus instead of commuting and was told I did not qualify.

#2
Education. The difference in how students are treated from a young age, what resources they have, and what is expected from them in predominantly black schools versus predominantly white schools is drastically different. I already spent to much time typing but I'll leave it at that since I believe many people take this into consideration already. I have a younger brother who just transferred from a local school here which is all minorities to one town over where he is one town over but is now the only black kid in his homeroom and one of the that he says he's seen in the school. The resources he has available to him in the school are amazing compared to the last. For example, his music teacher (music dep. cut in last school) said my brother is pretty good at the sax but gets nervous when he begins to play so to bring him by before school and he'll help him out with getting comfortable. Not once ever would something like that be offered in the other school system. Btw, this transfer was also not illegal.. my parents are divorced and have joint custody.

I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of what you are saying; however, I feel that I should point out that many of the the challenges that you mentioned in this post, especially those in the first couple paragraphs, are not exclusive to ethnic and racial URMs. They may be more commonly faced by these groups, sure; however, that does not mean that an ORM - including Caucasians - cannot go through such things and, in fact, many do. I know numerous non-URMs, including myself, who grew up economically and/or educationally disadvantaged, in families barely able/unable to afford things such as food, in areas filled with drugs and violence, with dysfunctional/absentee parents, with a history of trauma, going to poorly funded schools, who are the first in their family to earn a BA/BS, etc and, yes, working their way through school/college plagued by worries about how they're going to afford it all. Being white, though an undeniable advantage in many respects, does not in anyway protect you from being born in a situation in which one has to overcome all that you have described here. And, if you actually went around and surveyed medical students (there may actually be data out there already, I don't know), I'm pretty sure you'd find that very few of them, including the white students, come from such a background -- you just can't tell by looking at a few pictures.

That does mean that URMs don't face their own set of challenges, because they certainly do; however, a disadvantaged student from any race is going to have to overcome a lot more than his/her more well-off peers would and share many, many common challenges with a significant amount of URMs, including the ones talked about here (of course, on the reverse, a URM from a stable/upper-middle class background - even if it's not as common a situation - is likely to face less roadblocks than a white, but poor, pre-med).

 

[Mufa]

Although I'm not pre-med (I'm more of the lawyerly type--read scumish--lol), it's almost a miracle that I'm even in college, and going to go to a decent law school. (T14, hopefully). I dropped out of high school my sophomore year. I had to take care of my 3 siblings until they were old enough to take care of themselves. I finally got my ged, went to a community college, and now I'm in a state college. I've payed my way through all of that, all the while supporting my family (it's typically the other way around for white folks right?). My family owes me like 5k...money that I gave them because they needed it. I know I'll never get it back unless my mom wins the lotto (which would be shocking considering she doesn't play in the first place).

My father bailed on us a long time ago. That isn't too atypical for anyone these days, though he has never had to pay child support. In that sense, he is a very smart man.

I might be an extreme example but if I am in any way indicative of what it means to be a black person growing up in this world..the real question is, how in the world are there black people who are able to find their way into medicine? Especially the elite medical schools?

Still, no excuses. Life is sucky if you make it sucky. You just have to go with it and hope that all the hard work pays off eventually. It is what it is at the end of the day.

Among the black people I go to school with (it's like 80% white here), this isn't too uncommon a history. The point is that we are here, when so many of our peers didn't make it. And those same peers are the ones who (some of us) want to help at the end of the day..because, it really isn't too fair what some of us were brought up in. But life isn't fair...so yeah.

 

[PantherPride]

I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of what you are saying; however, I feel that I should point out that many of the the challenges that you mentioned in this post, especially those in the first couple paragraphs, are not exclusive to ethnic and racial URMs. They may be more commonly faced by these groups, sure; however, that does not mean that an ORM - including Caucasians - cannot go through such things and, in fact, many do.

Yes, disadvantaged children are not exclusive to one race, but the poverty rate for Caucasians is a fraction of what it is for URMs. According to this, the poverty rate for whites is around 10%, while for blacks and hispanics, its 33% and 27%, respectively. Children that are a URM are 3 times more likely to be underprivileged than whites. Blacks represent 12% the US's population, yet make up ~30% of poverty in children.

Poverty alone opens the door to a variety of problems that work against URMs- its why they are so underrepresented in the medical field

 

[Starlightembers]

Yes, disadvantaged children are not exclusive to one race, but the poverty rate for Caucasians is a fraction of what it is for URMs. According to this, the poverty rate for whites is around 10%, while for blacks and hispanics, its 33% and 27%, respectively. Children that are a URM are 3 times more likely to be underprivileged than whites. Blacks represent 12% the US's population, yet make up ~30% of poverty in children.

Poverty alone opens the door a variety of problems that work against URMs- its why they are so underrepresented in the medical field

Nowhere in my post did I deny these facts and, if you read what I wrote closely enough, you will see that I specifically acknowledged them more than once ("They may be more commonly faced by these groups...", "many, many common challenges with a significant amount of URMs..", "a URM from a stable/upper-middle class background - even if it's not as common a situation - is likely..."). I also acknowledged, very clearly, that being Caucasian certainly comes with its advantages ("Being white, though an undeniable advantage in many respects"...), especially when looking at, on an individual level, the lack of social stigma and discriminatory attitudes (that unfortunately still exist) and, on a population level, the overall lowered risk of disadvantage (due to not having to overcome the repercussions of decades of slavery and, later on, Jim Crow laws). Though I know that it can be hard to discern these things intuitively on an internet forum, especially based upon only a single post that you have read by be, I do want to make it clear that I am well aware of the realities facing URM populations as a whole/on a population level and the difficulties that they result in. I am also in complete support of efforts, including those by the AAMC and their affiliated schools, that attempt to move past the challenges faced by URMs, particularly AAs, in this post-Jim Crow era. Perhaps idealistically, I do believe that, one day, we will get there.

What I took issue with in my comment was the fact the poster I quoted seemed to be implying - and, at one point, essentially came out and said - that these challenges, those of poverty and educational disadvantage, are exclusive to ethnic and racial URMs (see bolded text in my quote box, specifically). As someone, who is quite Caucasian, that grew up poor, in a fragmented family, lacking adequate resources and support and experiencing numerous major traumas and life events that negatively impacted the course of my life (and, for a period of time, my ability to succeed), this irked and offended me. I have also known and grown up with countless others coming from similar backgrounds, both those who are classified ethnically and racially URM and ORM, and I can anecdotally attest to the fact that, for the most part (with some differences), we all have reported similar feelings, frustrations and obstacles to overcome. In other words, it is correct to say that one of the largest factors leading to racial and ethic minorities being underrepresented in medicine is the fact that a disproportionate (in comparison to Caucasians) amount of them have to face the challenge of overcoming a disadvantaged background; however, it is inaccurate - and offensive - to state that ethnically and racially ORMs rarely ever, or never, face such challenges as well.

Conclusion/Summary: As a group, those coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, no matter the race or ethnicity, are underrepresented in the medical field. Within this group, the majority are ethnic and racial minorities. Also, within the larger group of ethnic and racial minorities, a greater amount are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds than can be observed in a group of ethnic and racial majorities. Thus, ethnic and racial minorities are underrepresented in medicine; however, there is still a quantifiable number of racial and ethnic majorities that are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, and they face many of the same challenges, on an individual level, that minorities do on a more population level.

 

[PantherPride]

-snip-

Ah, my apologies. I didn't read what you bolded in that person's post.

Although I think its a given that people from lower/lower-middle class will be underrepresented in any field of higher education, be it medicine, law, engineering, etc.

 

[Starlightembers]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't read what you bolded in that person's post.

Although I think its a given that people from lower/lower-middle class will be underrepresented in any field of higher education, be it medicine, law, engineering, etc.

No apologies needed. It was actually a good opportunity to clarify and expand upon my original post, to ensure that it isn't misrepresented by anyone else who may come to read this thread.

Though common sense tells us it is a given, part of the reason I can be defensive about this is that I have had countless people very straightforwardly and bluntly invalidate what I have experienced and overcome, or simply not believe it has happened/happened to that extent, based upon the fact that I am White/Caucasian - and yes, they have used those words. On that note, I would like to apologize if I did/ever come off as overly defensive, it can just be a sensitive point for me, though I do try to make the effort to come off civilly.

Star

 

[RavishingB]

The British system is tougher. It's because of all the rain.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwrL9MV6jSk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[lucitrea]

most of the African Americans at my school go into business administration or some kind of lib art major. In my science classes, its mostly 1st or 2nd generation Africans who are middle to upper class

I think its the parents influence, mindset and values.

Anyone know the stats are for African matriculants vs African American matriculants?

 

[MayoorBust]

most of the African Americans at my school go into business administration or some kind of lib art major. In my science classes, its mostly 1st or 2nd generation Africans who are middle to upper class

I think its the parents influence, mindset and values.

Anyone know the stats are for African matriculants vs African American matriculants?

lol... We are splitting hairs at that point.

 

[slowpoke96z28]

lol... We are splitting hairs at that point.

if you mean by distinguishing between africans and african-americans, how do you figure? after 500 years, the two cannot be lumped together as the same thing. i think a lot of african-americans WISH there was no difference, but there is. african-americans are way more american than african. you can look at what was said by and some of the reactions in this thread to what evans2000 said as a local example of the difference, and thats from a descendant of a "displaced african" from that same 500 year time period, only from england, not america. "motherland" africans are even more culturally different. the distinction by no means is splitting hairs.

to the OP, i think the biggest thing is interest. not many african americans are attracted to the profession, and as long as there are enough applicants already to fill schools, there won't be a big push to change that...

 

[RavishingB]

I can only speak for my relatives; they majored in a variety of STEM & liberal art fields & AFAIK picked their majors because they were interested in it, not b/c of social issues. Only one is in law.

 

[2012mdc]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my perception has been that more AA go into subjects like AA studies, Sociology, Literature, History, and Political Science because of the connections to social issues and then go into Law School rather than the sciences.

At my UG there were a lot us who went into the sciences. Of course not everyone went to med school but it seemed like there were more of us pursuing MD's and science PhD's vs JD's and MBA's

 

[JaneAustenFan]

The were a few at my school that completely avoided science and math classes if they could help it. Those that made an effort to avoid the necessary classes for medical school were quick to make the assumption that only the Asian and white kids were smart and took those kinds of classes and then some just had no interest in medical school.

I knew of at least two freshmen who let something a professor said (racist or not) drive them away from that class and finishing school. There just seems to be a lack of resiliency in some instances and also a lack of communication about opportunities and how to pursue careers like medicine.

 

[DallasHen]

More White students with GPA between 2.0-3.19 got accepted to med school than Black students with the same GPA range from 2008-2010. White = 1621 Black 933.

THANK BLACK BABY JESUS FOR HOWARD, MEHARRY, AND MOREHOUSE! If not for those schools that number would likely be less than 500!

Do the math for yourself:

White
https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white-0810.pdf.pdf

Black
https://www.aamc.org/download/157594/data/table25-b-mcatgpa-grid-black-0810.pdf.pdf

Why don't White and Asian students complain about these seats going to less qualified White applicants? Racism in American society is systemic and subliminal. I wish I could switch elementary/middle/high school experiences with any White or Asian who complain about those 933 seats going to less qualified Black students. In Dallas ISD we didn't even have lab in chemistry, physics, or biology. When I got to intro chemistry in college all of my white classmates said they had already conducted most of the experiments while in high school. Imagine how dumb I felt.

Now tell me medical schools shouldn't consider my 3.2 GPA and 27 MCAT an impressive accomplishment!

 

[ainsley]

let's just be honest, blacks are stupid.