Why such beef w/ other health professions?

[PharmDr.]

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I just want to say "why can't everyone in the health community get along?" I have worked as a pharm. tech now for 2 years and became really interested in becoming a pharmacist. I liked the profession b/c I loved learning about drugs. There is a good starting salary and probally the best for a 6 year doctoral degree(I worked w/ a 23 yr. old who got hired making 88k at eckerds)! Anyways, sorry for rambling but the point is that I now have a great deal of respect for pharmacists who are thought of by the general public as just pill counters(yeah,and that's why they need so much schooling and get paid so much). Recently I have considered becoming a physician because I wanted more patient interaction and being able to diagnose and treat ailments. I didnt even consider other careers that have these same qualities. Before now I have never thought of dentistry or optometry. Here in lies the point, PEOPLE NEED TO NOT BE SO ANAL ABOUT OTHER PROFESSIONS! Just b/c one profession is right for one person doesn't mean it's right for others. I think every job is as good as you make it. You can be miserible and work 80 hrs. a week and be an on call surgeon or you can relax and have a 40 hr. wk. as a optometrist or pharmacist or dentist. I think we all should be interested in health professions b/c we want to help people. I have read previous posts about optometrists vs. opthmalogists and it just disgusts me. Why can't there be a middle ground for agreement betwen us? Opthmalogists do surgery and are "medical doctors" and optometrists are primary eye care doctors. This is how it is as simple as I can put it. I think its sick that MD's (allopaths) are so stuck on the fact that they want everyone in the world to know what they have been through and that everyone should bow down to them. Give me a break! A lot of us(im assuming) could become medical doctors if we wanted to but it is not our lingo. The whole DO vs. MD thing needs to go b/c you know what, DO's are just as much as a doctor as MD's are! I am sorry for this long post but I am just so pissed off about peoples ignorant comments and constant bickering(?)

 

[cpw]

post of the day !! 😀

 

[silverandblack]

GREAT POST! VERY WELL PUT! 👍

 

[Caverject]

Great post, but why is it in the Optometry forum?

 

[Gfunk6]

Your post is very idealistic and nice, but it eschews underlying politcal complexities. I agree with you fully that all people deserve respect and the people's goals differ, but then we part ways.

I have read previous posts about optometrists vs. opthmalogists and it just disgusts me. Why can't there be a middle ground for agreement betwen us? Opthmalogists do surgery and are "medical doctors" and optometrists are primary eye care doctors.

Optometrists would like freedom to move beyond eye disease diagnosis to actually treating patients. Regardless of what side you are on, we can all agree that there is a healthy debate to be had. Perhaps, in a decade or so, optometerists will also by administering systemic medications and performing procedures such as LASIK. IMO, this would require fundamental changes in optometric education, but anyway. . .

This is how it is as simple as I can put it. I think its sick that MD's (allopaths) are so stuck on the fact that they want everyone in the world to know what they have been through and that everyone should bow down to them. Give me a break!

Cetrainly many allopaths could use a strong dose of humility, but the fact is that they alone (with osteopaths) have the most comprehensive medical training of all health-professionals. In cases of conflict like: Psychiatrists vs. Psychologsits, Opthamalogists vs. Optometrists, and Anesthesiologist vs. Nurse Anesthetists, there are huge politcal lobbies on both sides.

Health care in the US is dynamic. The roles that health-care providers assume may be very different 10 or 20 years from now.

Personally, tend to favor allopaths for virtually any arguments concerning professional care and the spectrum of practice. I can certianly understand how others would stick to their own.

Your post may have been directed and pre-health professions students and, if it was, I agree. But the scope of the "problem" is a little more complex then you wish to make it.

The whole DO vs. MD thing needs to go b/c you know what, DO's are just as much as a doctor as MD's are!

If DOs and MDs were truly the same, then they would have the same degrees.

 

[PharmDr.]

I do agree that MD's and DO's have more medical knowledge, that is understood, but that does not make them have the right to bring down the rest of the health professions. My earlier post was for pre-health professionals and I should have made that clear. Yes, I would want to be recognized if I earned a medical degree and I don't know anyone that would honestly say that the title "Dr." doesn't mean anything at all to them considering there long and strenuous education process. What I was meaning is that I hear all the time that "MD" is the only way to go. I disagree at this b/c like I said before and most of us know that you need to do something that interests you as well as having the type of living and lifestyle that you prefer. If you have the motivation and are smarter than the norm., then you may possibly get that MD degree. But what's a degree if you are always thinking in your head that you should have become an optometrist,dentist,pharmacist,etc. I don't want to start a flame war over the optometry vs. opthmalogy thing but sometimes people need to realize the facts of each profession. I have posted in the optometry forums b/c I have seen more maturity in your posts and maybe there can be some type of collected census between us. Another thing we need to talk about is how great of a position we are in or eventually will be in. Most of us(hopefully)will eventually have gratifying lives and be in good financial positions b/c of our hard work. Any of the doctorate degree's as well as others (ex. PA) our difficult and we our willing to give up part of our lives to pursue these careers. Just the other day I talked to some of my old friends that I have not talked to in a while and you know what, none of them are motivated and they don't seem to have a good future ahead of them.Only one was in college and was failing almost all his easy computer and business classes. We need to stop and think about our own accomplishments b/c they are indeed "accomplishments" and we should be proud of them. Sorry for the long post but I think there were some good points I made there.

 

[Neuron]

If DOs and MDs were truly the same, then they would have the same degrees.

In the early 1960s, the California Medical Association and the California Osteopathic Association merged. The state?s osteopathic college, the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, became UC Irvine SOM, the transfer of power from DO to MD reportedly taking place at the cost of one dollar.

The CMA offered holders of the D.O. an exchange of their degree for an M.D. - for a fee of $65 and attendance at a short seminar. Less than 500 D.O.s chose to retain their degrees. Many of those that did reportedly thanked the CMA for its offer, and suggested all M.D.s convert to D.O.s.

 

[Neuron]

post of the day !! 😀

GREAT POST! VERY WELL PUT! 👍

Great post, but why is it in the Optometry forum?

I?m afraid I cannot share in the adulation of the OP. The appeal is silly; there are disagreements ? and one would have thought this apparent - because humans have many different opinions.

To use an example the OP quoted, there are many ophthalmologists who believe (perhaps know is a better word?) that one cannot safely operate on and pharmacologically treat patients with ocular disease without the extensive biomedical training in medical school and residency. However, there are others who believe you can ? with about 5% of that education and training.

I think that is ridiculous - as a mudphud, I can see the ophthalmologists point of view. However, not everyone agrees.

Thus, we have a disagreement.

 

[Leukocyte]

Dear OP:

Do you realize that there are Med Students who want to go to anesthesia, but are considering not to go into that MEDICAL field b/c the NURSING profession is slowly but surly taking over the bread and butter work?

If CRNAs are a nusance now, they will be a problem in the future (if they keep up their agressive political agenda).

I would love to WORK WITH the nurses as a medical team. They do their Nursing stuff, and we do our Medical stuff. But when they decide to opt out of this team arrangement, and start to steal OUR bread and butter jobs from us (forceing us to go into fellowships and subspecialize-thus pushing us into a market that has a much lower demand), then my friend, there will be some beef between us and them.

Sorry, but we do not live with Alice in Wonderland. 🙄

 

[rpames]

So, you attempt to state facts and correct what others have posted and then say something completly false. "5% of the training..." That is one of the most false statement ever posted here.

I won't argue the surgical side, but as far as treating ocular disease with drugs, I'm pretty sure we can handle it. From your post it is very clear you know nothing about ODs or DOs. This is just proof of the God Complex of so many MDs. But from my experience, the Holyer then thou attitude is more commonly found in pre-MD students and 1st year med students. After that they usually mature a little.

 

[mdkurt]

I do agree that MD's and DO's have more medical knowledge, that is understood, but that does not make them have the right to bring down the rest of the health professions. My earlier post was for pre-health professionals and I should have made that clear. Yes, I would want to be recognized if I earned a medical degree and I don't know anyone that would honestly say that the title "Dr." doesn't mean anything at all to them considering there long and strenuous education process. What I was meaning is that I hear all the time that "MD" is the only way to go. .

I think that if you read most of the posts in the optometry/ophthalmology forums, you'll find very few assertions that MD is the "only way to go". If you want to do surgery or perform comprehensive management of ocular disease, then it is. Otherwise, optometry is a valuable profession and works very well at filling the needs of most patients.

You're a little late on the DO/MD thing. DOs and MDs have nearly identical education, and are held to the same standard.

 

[silverandblack]

Call me an idealist, but my statement that the initial post was a "great" one was in support of the suggestion that the bickering b/w the different health care pros needs to stop (at least on sdn anyways). Obvioiusly, I don't expect everyone to agree, nor would I expect non health care professionals with similar or overlapping jobs/duties to agree on all aspects of the politics behind their work; the problem does not only lie within the domain of health care. At any rate, I do believe that on THIS particular site at least, we should be able to maintain a level of maturity and understanding when we respectfully disagree with each other.... that's about it... I have to say that I'm quite impressed with the level of maturity demonstrated within this thread.... thanx for keeping it cool everyone!... I'm not trying to start a big fight, but I did feel the need to clarify my previous post (and I still think the first one was great! 🙂 ) I guess my one complaint is the huge generalizations about "all pre meds/first year meds" or "all od students" or "all whoevers".... I don't think it's fair to make generalizations. I for example take offence to the suggestion that optometry students chose the profession because they couldn't get into med school... so what about those of us who turned down offers of admission to medical school (or whatever else) to do what we really want to do? Just an example that I use because I speak from my own personal experience.

Anyways, good luck to everyone here... hopefully we all get where we're trying to go! 👍 I'm proud to say that I feel like I'm on my way to where I would like to be; it'd be nice if we all got there!

silverandblack

 

[Neuron]

...say something completly false. "5% of the training..." That is one of the most false statement ever posted here.... From your post it is very clear you know nothing about ODs or DOs. This is just proof of the God Complex of so many MDs.

Hi there,

I was referring to the relative education of OMDs and ODs in the surgical and medical management of ocular disease. Exactly how much surgical training does the average OD receive? ODs do receive some training in medical therapeutics, but this is of an entirely different order than that received by OMDs, who aside from their MD training, do an entire year of internship often in internal medicine, to say nothing of the exposure they get during residency.

Advocates of OD scope expansion such as the vermin who pushed through H.B. 2321 have argued for the ?Board of Examiners in Optometry?a body composed mainly of optometrists?to decide optometric scope of practice including the types of surgeries optometrists will be able to perform on the eye and face, including cataract surgery, plastic surgery, facial reconstruction and eyeball removal.?

Those are what the provisions of the bill that ODs fought for entail. If ODs want that, then lay the cards on the table. I?m saying the training they receive that is pertinent to such a scope of practice is grossly insufficient. You haven?t said anything that suggests otherwise.

When you are ready to move beyond mindless ad hominem attacks on someone you know nothing about, feel free to respond. I'm sure you'll forgive my not responding to further drivel.

Have a great one.

 

[rpames]

Your statment about 5% of the training really angered me. You are right that I know nothing about you, as you know nothing about me. No one needs to tell us about the residancey training OMDs have, we are very aware of it. But unfortunatly most MDs are not aware of the training ODs have. I can understand when people say ODs should not do surgery, but when I read statments about our inability to use pharm. safely, that just really ticks me off. Our trianing is very extensive in not only the eye, but the whole body. I would never dare say we are able treat any disease of the body, but we are very well prepared to treat the eye.

I believe the OP had the intention of this kind of crap not taking place. I apologize for fueling the fire. But to defend what I have said, THEY STARTED IT! 😀

 

[tallnconfident]

I guess my one complaint is the huge generalizations about "all pre meds/first year meds" or "all od students" or "all whoevers".... I don't think it's fair to make generalizations. I for example take offence to the suggestion that optometry students chose the profession because they couldn't get into med school... so what about those of us who turned down offers of admission to medical school (or whatever else) to do what we really want to do? Just an example that I use because I speak from my own personal experience.

I so agree with this statement. I CHOSE optometry school for myself and I think part of the problem is that "we" optometrists, dentists, pharmacists may be looking for validation from the rest of the world. For the world to say hey your degree is just as good as a M.D. Well I think that we have to know it for ourselves first and not allow others' offhanded uninformed comments toshake our confidence. No matter whether that person is your mother, father, classmate, colleague, associate or what have you. like one professor told us in american nat'l gov't, "...it' all about power aquisition, power maintenance, and power expansion." so of course other professionals must actively put down other health professionals it's nature, one must maintain one's position at all cost, survival of the fittest. One should just recognize what's going on and determine to be happy and successful in ones own life.
thank you

 

[LestatZinnie]

I'm in dentistry and there I don't really see a conflict of interest between DMD and MD's like optometrists vs ophthamologists. For one thing a physician can not do a dentist's work. Sure my medical school colleagues make fun of us sometimes, but they know that when they got oral problems, they got no other MD counterparts to see.

Dentists: there is NO SUBSTITUTE!! 🙂

 

[powermd]

I guess my one complaint is the huge generalizations about "all pre meds/first year meds" or "all od students" or "all whoevers".... I don't think it's fair to make generalizations. I for example take offence to the suggestion that optometry students chose the profession because they couldn't get into med school... so what about those of us who turned down offers of admission to medical school (or whatever else) to do what we really want to do? Just an example that I use because I speak from my own personal experience.

I so agree with this statement. I CHOSE optometry school for myself and I think part of the problem is that "we" optometrists, dentists, pharmacists may be looking for validation from the rest of the world. For the world to say hey your degree is just as good as a M.D. Well I think that we have to know it for ourselves first and not allow others' offhanded uninformed comments toshake our confidence. No matter whether that person is your mother, father, classmate, colleague, associate or what have you. like one professor told us in american nat'l gov't, "...it' all about power aquisition, power maintenance, and power expansion." so of course other professionals must actively put down other health professionals it's nature, one must maintain one's position at all cost, survival of the fittest. One should just recognize what's going on and determine to be happy and successful in ones own life.
thank you

I don't think it is true that some health professionals, by nature, need to "maintain position" by actively putting down other health professionals. If you are secure in the benefits and limitations of your degree/profession, this should not be an issue for you. Only when one does not accept their limitations do they provoke others, most likely those with more comprehensive training, to attack their position.

As an example I would cite the freqently heard argument that it's okay for optometrists to prescribe systemic medications. This, to me, appears to be an instance of the OD not recognizing the limitations of their training. Just taking a pharm class and seeing patients in the optometry clinic can't provide the depth needed to safely prescribe systemic drugs. As a medical intern I have had much more comprehensive training in medicine and pharm than an optometry student, and I STILL have much to learn before I can prescribe systemic drugs unsupervised in a safe way. Are all optometrists suitably trained to rule out Wolf-Parkinson-White syndrome before writing a prescription for beta-blockers for an elderly patient's glaucoma? Are optometrists trained in ECG interpretation? Have they spent time in general medical rotations, as OMD's do, where they learn about and manage the common co-morbidities present in the patients they treat? It's time they appreciated their limitations where systemic drugs are concerned.

 

[gizmoduck]

I'm shadowing both an ophthalmologist and an optometrist this summer so I get enough of both sides of this cat fight on weekdays. Optometrists are afraid that ophthalmologists will take away their basic rights while ophalmologists are worried that optometrists wil take the scope of their practice too far. Both sides are responding with militant lobbying that goes too far and really shows how much these people have their panties in a wad.

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

I'm in dentistry and there I don't really see a conflict of interest between DMD and MD's like optometrists vs ophthamologists. For one thing a physician can not do a dentist's work. Sure my medical school colleagues make fun of us sometimes, but they know that when they got oral problems, they got no other MD counterparts to see.

Dentists: there is NO SUBSTITUTE!! 🙂

Hey Zinnie, take a look at this thread and see if it doesn't give you a little perspective on where the optho guys are coming from.

It's a little more valid analogy than the DDS/MD comparison.

 

[PharmDr.]

The reason I started this post was to kind of show everyone just how pre-..... can be, that is, they need to stop and smell the roses and stop bickering. I myself have thought about being a pharmacist,doctor,optometrist, and dentist at different times just so I could see if that career would suit my interests. I do know that a health profession is the one for me but this is a big decision as we all know and I just want to be content with my choice. I absolutely love SDN and the info it has brought me over the months. It's great when we can all give our opinions and help each other out to get where we want but the "flame wars" could stop. Straight up argueing most of the time doesnt get anywhere but bring extremely biased info to other forum members. I know I posted this earlier but I think I should state it again, we should be fortunate that we could be making 100k+ one day for all our hard work in school and by giving up some of our lives to pursue our dream. Every day when I study I think about my major accomplishments in my life:sponsored aggressive inline skater at age 14,received all-state honors in georgia for percussion at age 15(one of 7 in state through age 18),played in london in millenium parade as lead snare drummer as a freshmen as well as several regional drum line awards, and won drum off at Mars music in Atlanta out of 100 or so people. I dont mean to sound arrogant or brag but to me these accomplishments meant so much to me and I am soo proud of them. I wouldnt be who I am without them. What I am getting at is that we should be grateful for what we have done good through our lives whether academically or talents or helped others and........Trust me, it will help bring out the best in you sometimes. I have known so many people throughout my young adult life that have gone nowhere or that their main goal in life is to be a plummer that is doing manual labor in 90 degree florida weather all day long! Thanks for your guys posts and lets keep the moral up!

 

[GeddyLee]

I think its sick that MD's (allopaths) are so stuck on the fact that they want everyone in the world to know what they have been through and that everyone should bow down to them. Give me a break! A lot of us(im assuming) could become medical doctors if we wanted to but it is not our lingo.

Well, a lot of MD's might argue that if we don't let everyone know the training we've been through, there might be the misconception that OMD's and OD's are of equivalent training, thus opening the door to further increases in optometry's scope of surgical practice. Optometry (and other health professions) have initiated massive efforts to increase their scope of practice, thus encroaching upon the physician's practice. This is why we want everyone to know the difference in training...then the public can decide who they want providing their care.

I'm sure all of you COULD have become MD's, but the point remains...you did not. I could have become a fighter pilot, yet this does not give me the skill nor the right to fly a jet. Lots of opticians could have become OD's, but they aren't refracting and treating glaucoma.

Hey...I think OD's are great. Eye care would have some serious problems of supply if OD's did not exist. But it is quite pesky to have people lobbying bills that would allow them to perform vitrectomies and cataracts and enucleations, when the training is clearly not sufficient to manage these types of cases. Of course, I'm sure someone will come back and say that if the MD's had it their way, OD's would even be able to (insert procedure here, such as evert an eyelid, inject a chalazion, use an ophthalmoscope). This is just BS.

I suppose the point of view of allied health fields is quite different than from that of physicians. You see us as arrogant for protecting our turf. We see you as cavalier for trying to gain practice priveleges for which you are not trained.

Oh yeah, I don't want anyone bowing down to me. But come one...what are we suppose to do, play dead while other professions chip away at our practices? Essentially, you're saying we should all bow to you and give you you legislation on a platter.

 

[GeddyLee]

Our trianing is very extensive in not only the eye, but the whole body.

You training may be extensiviein the whole body, yet it is not nearly as extensive as the MD's.

I may be confused about this point, but I don't believe OD students complete 2 years of training through core clinical rotations including surgery, medicine, Ob/Gyn, pediatrics, psychiatry, and family medicine. In fact, I don't believe they complete any of these rotations. And they don't do a rotating internship. So clearly, MD's are superior in their knowledge of the whole body.

I would just like to say that no amount of lecture time can equate to the clinical experience attained in medical school. To say that you have sufficient training in this regard is quite cavalier, as I don't even feel that I'm to that point yet, nor do any of my PGY-1 colleagues.

 

[cpw]

ODs do rotating internships.. I have three of them. I'm in one of them right now. we just only rotate through OD and OMD sites. Right now I'm at a VA hospital doing eye exams. 😀

Today I saw a patient with commotio retinae.. took pictures 👍

 

[drbizzaro]

You training may be extensiviein the whole body, yet it is not nearly as extensive as the MD's.

I may be confused about this point, but I don't believe OD students complete 2 years of training through core clinical rotations including surgery, medicine, Ob/Gyn, pediatrics, psychiatry, and family medicine. In fact, I don't believe they complete any of these rotations. And they don't do a rotating internship. So clearly, MD's are superior in their knowledge of the whole body.

I would just like to say that no amount of lecture time can equate to the clinical experience attained in medical school. To say that you have sufficient training in this regard is quite cavalier, as I don't even feel that I'm to that point yet, nor do any of my PGY-1 colleagues.

you're right about the fact that you guys are more experienced in dealing with the entire body...

for a primary eye care provider, i believe optometrists are best suited... and for problems with the body, it's up to you guys...

 

[Andrew_Doan]

ODs do rotating internships.. I have three of them. I'm in one of them right now. we just only rotate through OD and OMD sites. Right now I'm at a VA hospital doing eye exams. 😀

Today I saw a patient with commotio retinae.. took pictures 👍

I think Geddy meant a rotating medical internship, which optometrists do not do. There's some confusion about the terminology here. Optometrists do "internships" as OD students and then "residencies" as post-doctoral trainees. Physicians do "internships" and "residencies" as post-doctoral trainies. Optometry internships are more like medical school clinical clerkships where students have no medical or surgical privileges.

Medical and surgical internships are intensive and allow physicians to manage hundreds if not over a thousand outpatients and inpatients during the first year out of medical school. For instance, I spent 2 months on the internal medicine inpatient service, 1 year with the outpatient service, 1 month in the ICU, 1 month on cardiology, 1 month on the heme-onc service, 2 months at the VA inpatient service, 1 month in the ER, 1 month as the night float, 1 month on the ophthalmology VA service, and 1 month in the family acute care.

 

[cpw]

Dr Doan is right again.. we don't have medical privilages.. someone signs all my charts and I can't order meds.

But, I get experience out there.. see patients... but I don't think a GYN rotation is going to help me examine eyeballs better. 😉 (although, if I were to start systemics I could see the value in it)

 

[Richard_Hom]

ODs do rotating internships.. I have three of them. I'm in one of them right now. we just only rotate through OD and OMD sites. Right now I'm at a VA hospital doing eye exams. 😀

Today I saw a patient with commotio retinae.. took pictures 👍

Dear CPW,

It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that optometry has not adopted a more standardized.terminology in its approach in describing its education, its methods and its training.

We should adopt the wordage "externships" or "clerkships" rather than "internships" for all pre-doctoral students. This is especially true for the clinic at your school!

If optometry is to further interact with the other disciplines of medical care, it would be incumbent to talk a more common language lest optometry be forever segregated by language.

Richard

 

[cpw]

I agree with you, Dr Hom.. it should be standardized. The school does call them externships.. but, the VA classifies me as an intern.

 

[vanelo]

So, you attempt to state facts and correct what others have posted and then say something completly false. "5% of the training..." That is one of the most false statement ever posted here.

I won't argue the surgical side, but as far as treating ocular disease with drugs, I'm pretty sure we can handle it. From your post it is very clear you know nothing about ODs or DOs. This is just proof of the God Complex of so many MDs. But from my experience, the Holyer then thou attitude is more commonly found in pre-MD students and 1st year med students. After that they usually mature a little.

Bull ****. Optometrists should just learn their role and stick to it....

 

[powermd]

I think Geddy meant a rotating medical internship, which optometrists do not do. There's some confusion about the terminology here. Optometrists do "internships" as OD students and then "residencies" as post-doctoral trainees. Physicians do "internships" and "residencies" as post-doctoral trainies. Optometry internships are more like medical school clinical clerkships where students have no medical or surgical privileges.

Medical and surgical internships are intensive and allow physicians to manage hundreds if not over a thousand outpatients and inpatients during the first year out of medical school. For instance, I spent 2 months on the internal medicine inpatient service, 1 year with the outpatient service, 1 month in the ICU, 1 month on cardiology, 1 month on the heme-onc service, 2 months at the VA inpatient service, 1 month in the ER, 1 month as the night float, 1 month on the ophthalmology VA service, and 1 month in the family acute care.

It's worth noting, for those readers not in medical school, or medical/surgical residency, that the time "spent" in the rotations you mention above are intensive experiences with full patient care responsibility. You are the "point-man" at the front line of care for typically 8-12 acutely ill, hospitalized patients. You get all the pages throughout a 10-14 hour day (not counting call) to respond immediately with medical/surgical interventions. Supervision is loose, and allows the new MD/DO to develop clinical judgment, while making one acutely aware of one's limitations. It's amazing how a new med school grad evolves from a shaky book-learned student with enough clinical experience to know he/she doesn't know anything yet, to a confident practitioner with the psychomotor skills needed to effectively manage serious problems, as well as day-to-day ones. Until OD students have an experience akin to the medical/surgical internship, they should never be trusted to administer systemic medications. It's been said before, but it's very, very true- if you want to do medical managment, you should become a medical doctor. If you are an OD you owe it to your patients to limit your practice to outpatient refraction and primary eye care with topical meds.

 

[JennyW]

It's worth noting, for those readers not in medical school, or medical/surgical residency, that the time "spent" in the rotations you mention above are intensive experiences with full patient care responsibility. You are the "point-man" at the front line of care for typically 8-12 acutely ill, hospitalized patients. You get all the pages throughout a 10-14 hour day (not counting call) to respond immediately with medical/surgical interventions. Supervision is loose, and allows the new MD/DO to develop clinical judgment, while making one acutely aware of one's limitations. It's amazing how a new med school grad evolves from a shaky book-learned student with enough clinical experience to know he/she doesn't know anything yet, to a confident practitioner with the psychomotor skills needed to effectively manage serious problems, as well as day-to-day ones. Until OD students have an experience akin to the medical/surgical internship, they should never be trusted to administer systemic medications. It's been said before, but it's very, very true- if you want to do medical managment, you should become a medical doctor. If you are an OD you owe it to your patients to limit your practice to outpatient refraction and primary eye care with topical meds.

That's a very good point. THe number of patients killed by Keflex that they got from their ODs has to be in the thousands.

Jenny

 

[tupac_don]

I so agree with this statement. I CHOSE optometry school for myself and I think part of the problem is that "we" optometrists, dentists, pharmacists may be looking for validation from the rest of the world.

Very true, all these professions want to be equal to doctors, unfortunately they are not. I am not trying to be mean, I am a pharmacist myself, however, MD"s have a lot more education and are more prepared to handle the problems that arise. Now I think a lot of that translates into power strugles later on when working in the field. Because MD's can override any other health professional. But keep in mind, the MD's have the most invested, they spend 80 hrs + in the hospital, they have the most knowledge and put in the most work. You can't expect as an optometrist, pharmacist or physical therapist, to spend your nice little 8 hrs a day in the hospital, go home relax, hang out and then expect to be on equal footing when it comes to decision making. It just wouldn't be fair to the MD's. I am not saying that MD's should be dinguses/bitches, b/c of their degree and most are not. But you gotta realize, you gotta give credit where credit is due and recognize they are the true experts. Other health professions are but an auxillary service. In the same hand the auxillaries can be excellent and make the MD's job much easier, but at the end of the day, it's the MD that gets all the credit and respect and I think that is where the animosity lies. I think the other health professions are not as appreciated for their services and thus they get bent out of shape. Well that's just my 2 cents, I hope I didn't offend anyone, b/c that certainly was not my intent. Best of luck to everyone.

 

[maxwellfish]

tupac~

This may be a minor point but I disagree with your statement that "MD's can override any other health professional"...

You may be correct when considering certain health professionals EMPLOYED by a MD, but that is true in almost every employee/boss relationship. In the case of an independent provider an outside MD cannot override anything.

I believe, you as a pharmacist, will agree that if you felt that a certain prescription/dosage was incorrect, unsafe, or unethical (and you were correct) that a MD would have no authority over you, when it came down to it.

 

[tupac_don]

tupac~

This may be a minor point but I disagree with your statement that "MD's can override any other health professional"...

You may be correct when considering certain health professionals EMPLOYED by a MD, but that is true in almost every employee/boss relationship. In the case of an independent provider an outside MD cannot override anything.

I believe, you as a pharmacist, will agree that if you felt that a certain prescription/dosage was incorrect, unsafe, or unethical (and you were correct) that a MD would have no authority over you, when it came down to it.

Hey Maxwell,

You are partially correct. The doctor has no jurisdiction over you, he doesn't pay your salary and so forth. And yea if it is an obvious mistake, say it is an incorrect dose or toxicity, no doctor will have qualms with you changing it. That is not an issue. Really the issue becomes when the area is gray and maybe you read up on somethign that makes more sense or is potentially better, but the doctor doesn't take your reccommendation and he has the full right to do so. Say if the pharmacist wants Moxifloxacin b/c its on formulary and Doc writes for Levo, he can override the pharmacist's suggestion for Moxi. The main point comes down to it, that you always have to ask the doctor's permission to do something. So other health professionals would like more autonomy. I didn't mean that doctor can hire you or fire you, I mean that if you work side by side and you wanna make changes to drug therapy, he has the right to override you and go with what he thinks. Keep in mind that this is more difference of opinion, rather than blatant things, like wrong dose, wrong drug and so forth. But still the doctor has the final word and I think that is why other health professionals mainly complain.

 

[maxwellfish]

Sorry I still do not agree... but you are right it comes down to differences in opinion.

As a pharmacist you can say "nope, I'm not filling that". End of story! To be fair however, a bartender can do essentially the same thing, "nope, not serving that."

As an optometrist or say, podiatrist; they can say "nope not gonna do it that way, not going to recommend this plan of action, etc. (within their scope of course), and a MD can only recommend his or hers. The MD has no control over the independent health care provider.

 

[chemgirlie]

.. Other health professions are but an auxillary service. In the same hand the auxillaries can be excellent and make the MD's job much easier, but at the end of the day, it's the MD that gets all the credit and respect and I think that is where the animosity lies. I think the other health professions are not as appreciated for their services and thus they get bent out of shape. Well that's just my 2 cents, I hope I didn't offend anyone, b/c that certainly was not my intent. Best of luck to everyone.

I don't know about the rest of you, but as someone applying to optometry school I have to say, I really DO NOT care if the MDs get more respect, etc. Who cares? I will have a great job I enjoy and will make good money and I won't have to worry about getting a malpractice lawsuit thrown at me at any time. And in my state, MDs don't really have much respect anymore, a lot of people just see MDs as people who can make them money if they screw up.I really don't understand why anyone would go to med school when there are all these other great professions you could go into.

 

[aphistis]

The mouth belongs to us. It's our area of specialty, and there are plenty of situations where our word is final. Sure there's a lot of overlap, but a competent dentist is nobody's inferior when it comes to diagnosis and treatment in the oral cavity.

 

[tupac_don]

The mouth belongs to us. It's our area of specialty, and there are plenty of situations where our word is final. Sure there's a lot of overlap, but a competent dentist is nobody's inferior when it comes to diagnosis and treatment in the oral cavity.

Absolutely, dentists are completely free, very little meddling of doctors, because they run their own office. I was more referring to those who work side by side with doctors. Dentists dont' they have their own thing going on.

 

[tupac_don]

Sorry I still do not agree... but you are right it comes down to differences in opinion.

As a pharmacist you can say "nope, I'm not filling that". End of story! To be fair however, a bartender can do essentially the same thing, "nope, not serving that."

As an optometrist or say, podiatrist; they can say "nope not gonna do it that way, not going to recommend this plan of action, etc. (within their scope of course), and a MD can only recommend his or hers. The MD has no control over the independent health care provider.

Maybe you are disagreeing b/c we are talking about different things. You are proably referring to retail pharmacy. There pharmacists are much less under doctor's jurisdiction, but they are not really fighting with doctors. You are gonna see more of what I am talking about in the hospital environment. And it's not a matter of "Nope I am not filling that" because you are up on the floor and the doctor can and will get that medication. You are more likely to say no I am not filling, if say it's retail and in your judgement the pt looks like a drug abuser and you don't wanna fill. Nobody will harp on you b/c of that. I am talking about the differences of opinion when treating inpatients, when you are shoulder to shoulder with the doctor. And you can't just say "Nope I am not filling that, unless you have a good reason" and usually it won't be filled if it's the hospital's policy or something. But pharmacists won't just not fill it, just to spite the doctor. The bottom line is that pharmacists would like to be completely in charge of medications and handle the drug regimen. But doctors don't allow it, they may take your input, but they say what drugs go and which stay. That's the bottom line. Basically at times you will have a professional difference of opinion, however the doctor has the final word. It's not a matter of you not dispensing the drug, it's a matter of you're both potentially right. But he has the legal ability to override you. If you want it's a matter of pride, ego if you will. I hope this cleared things up.

 

[maxwellfish]

tupac,

we are talking about slightly different things and I thank you for such an eloquent explanation. However, retail pharmacy or not, a pharmacist is at the front of one of the most important "checks" our health care system has. A pharmacist has a professional duty and is obligated to speak out when he/she feels something is not right. You are right there is a pecking order (its in every sector of the business field).

An example more applicable to this forum; a FP MD has no overriding control over an OD regarding eye care. Pecking order-Yes... automatic control because of an MD-No way.

Again I will agree though, we are talking in two different directions. I just wanted to make my point (my opinions) more clear.

 

[tupac_don]

Absolutely I agree we are talking about different things, not in disagreement. Lates.

p.s. Check out the post on the Pharm D forum about pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions. I think that is what you were getting at.

 

[coolness]

DOs, MDs, Pharm Ds, NPs, RNs, DDS/DMDs, PAs --> health care team

 

[siguanabo]

If you have the motivation and are smarter than the norm., then you may possibly get that MD degree. QUOTE]

That's about the only claim you make in which you are correct.

In case you didn;t know, opthalmology is a very competitive specialty to match in. Usually some of the top students from each medical school end up in it. So to allow optometrists, who are of lower caliber than those med students matching it, to do the same things that opthalmologists do is uncivilized. They need to stick their things and let the optho guys do their thing.

 

[siguanabo]

I don't know about the rest of you, but as someone applying to optometry school I have to say, I really DO NOT care if the MDs get more respect, etc. Who cares? I will have a great job I enjoy and will make good money and I won't have to worry about getting a malpractice lawsuit thrown at me at any time. And in my state, MDs don't really have much respect anymore, a lot of people just see MDs as people who can make them money if they screw up.I really don't understand why anyone would go to med school when there are all these other great professions you could go into.

I sense a bit of jealousy coming from this chick. Sorry you couldn't cut it for med school and have to settle for optometry school. It's Ok you can always refer the complicated patients to the true experts ..the opthalmologists.

 

[siguanabo]

tupac,

we are talking about slightly different things and I thank you for such an eloquent explanation. However, retail pharmacy or not, a pharmacist is at the front of one of the most important "checks" our health care system has. A pharmacist has a professional duty and is obligated to speak out when he/she feels something is not right. You are right there is a pecking order (its in every sector of the business field).

An example more applicable to this forum; a FP MD has no overriding control over an OD regarding eye care. Pecking order-Yes... automatic control because of an MD-No way.

Again I will agree though, we are talking in two different directions. I just wanted to make my point (my opinions) more clear.

Just accept that you have no power cowboy. Stop trying to deny who has the more juice here. You want to make yourself important when you know damn well you are, well where you should be, below the MD.

 

[stompy]

I must admit I have a lot of respect for humble MDs...they got everything to be proud of, but they don't show it or rub it in

 

[maxwellfish]

Just accept that you have no power cowboy. Stop trying to deny who has the more juice here. You want to make yourself important when you know damn well you are, well where you should be, below the MD.

HA... cowboy!

 

[JennyW]

Just accept that you have no power cowboy. Stop trying to deny who has the more juice here. You want to make yourself important when you know damn well you are, well where you should be, below the MD.

Wow. That's about as limp of a playground insult as I have seen in a long time. 🙄

It's actually good that this was posted on a forum for student doctors. It's a good "grand rounds" case. All student doctors should take note of this indivudal. He shows obvious signs of "small penis syndrome." Quite a classic case, actually.

Jenny

 

[rpames]

I'm so sick of this type of forum. It should just be deleted.

Those who say the only students is non-MD programs are those who "could not cut-it" are sadly mistaken. I have two close friends that I know for sure who graduated with 3.80+ GPA's. I have another friend who was accepted to medical school and OD school and is now my classmate. I was told be a faculty member at a medical school, while I was doing research with him, that if I would have applied, I would have been accepted.

So...shove that in your pipe and smoke it!

Basically, we all choose different things in our lives that we believe will make us happy. There is no reason for others to disrespect you for those choices. For the love of god, we are all in DOCTORAL programs. I would think we could all act a little more mature.

 

[siguanabo]

Wow. That's about as limp of a playground insult as I have seen in a long time. 🙄

It's actually good that this was posted on a forum for student doctors. It's a good "grand rounds" case. All student doctors should take note of this indivudal. He shows obvious signs of "small penis syndrome." Quite a classic case, actually.

Jenny

It's obvious you have no argument to counter my claim so just admit you belong lower on the totem pole and be happy with it.