Why the emphasis on volunteering?

[Radishguy]

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While I was a TA last semester, I sent out an email to the class after a particularly difficult exam with a really low average that told a little about my origin story and the difficulties I had during freshman year. That email led to me being a kind of sounding board for tons of young college kids, many of whom will be applying to medical school. While I don’t necessarily mind the emails, I sometimes just don’t know what to tell them. One of the emails I recently got made me feel kind of bad about the advice I gave, which was essentially just “suck it up.”

The issue was with volunteering hours and this student’s difficulty getting to them. The problem is that he doesn’t have a car and his parents are controlling his budget to the point that he doesn’t even have enough money to get a bus pass. I told him that he should try getting a job as a scribe, there are always posting for them at our school, and then he will have a little bit of income coming in so he can afford to get around, plus he’ll have the added benefit of some clinical experience. He said that his parents won’t let him do that because they are (I think really he is) afraid it will interfere with his studies. That’s when I basically said suck it up and get it done. Find a way. And that’s just not very good advice.

In the past, I’ve always compared them to what I have going on now, with kids, a wife, a mortgage, 20 credits a semester, etc. and I was still able to fit around 500 hours of volunteering in. But I never compared them to my situation when I was their age. Afterwards, I thought about it more, and I compared it to my situation when I was first an undergrad, and I realized how truly horrible that advice was. The worst part is, this wasn’t the first person I gave this bad advice to. Our situations were a bit different, but the end results were very similar. In my place, I ended up having a sudden need for income during my freshman year that made it so I had to work more than full time while attending school. I barely held it together then, but if I would’ve tried to add a large amount of volunteering into the mix, I just wouldn’t have been able to do it.

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

 

[gyngyn]

Commitment to service is a core competency. Actual service to others is the best way to support the contention that you possess this quality. Otherwise it's just words.

 

[LizzyM]

So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

Transfer to a school in a city with a better public transportation system?

Seriously, if a student wants to be a physician to help people, the student should show us how they are making an effort now to help people who need the help the student is capable of providing.

If a student is being "starved" by parents who aren't providing enough cash for the student to do what needs to be done, then the student should find some employment on campus or elsewhere that will help cover essentials like transportation. One of my kids worked an early shift at a campus coffee shop (not a chain) -- my kid wasn't studying or doing other essential things between 6 am and 9 so it fit into the schedule well. Where there is a will there is a way. Most freshman pre-meds don't really have the will to find the way and if they drop off along the way, the EC requirements are just one more weed out.

Of course, there is no single time table for med school admission and someone who felt hampered by parents as a teenager can graduate, earn money and do things in their free time to buff an application to medical school as a non-trad. You can give advice but each student is going to find their own path.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Are you a peer prehealth advisor? Do those exist in your campus?

Every college I know has done office of community engagement and even a day of service, though this may not include all colleges. Does your institution have an office like this?

 

[MateoGM416]

As an applicant, the only way I could have gotten enough volunteer hours to be accepted was because I had a small scholarship and parents that helped with rent. I'm young and stupid but I think if an admissions committee doesn't something like that student's situation into account when reviewing their application, they're probably not an institution that doesn't understand what it's like to be low SES and therefore probably not worth getting a socially conscious medical education there anyway. But then again, this is an inhuman process that caters to the wealthy and connected

 

[stinkycheeseperson]

......................................... because you're going into a job that works with a lot of normal people on their worst days and "chicks, money, power, and chicks" ain't gonna do it? because at the end of the day, you'll be in a service role? because you have to know about giving up your time and your wants in aid of other people? to learn about the messiness of the real world? because most doctor applicants are, relatively speaking, well off and hugely privileged? because most of you have no idea what it means to not have shelter or food or education or be surrounded by drug wars and violence? because most of you are so comfortable in your lives that you've never even thought for yourself about how other people-- the vast majority of people, the ones who aren't wasting time on this or similar hellsites-- actually live?

so yeah, suck it up, get off your butt, and toddle off to the still-middle-class elementary down the street to read to some kindergartners. buddy up and pick up some trash. join the school field trip to the soup kitchen where you can take your saviour on insta pics and get some clout.

"a classist policy catering to rich kids"? for god's sake. volunteering isn't supposed to be about making yourself look good,.

this is like when you guys had episodes over the addition of psych/soc to the mewocat. liek idk, greg, why would potential future doctors need to have even the barest grasp of the most basic concepts of the fundamentals of human psychosocial development and societal constructs which impact health? yes, you, whose mommy has always scheduled the pediatrician appointments and make sure you got your veggies and milk and vaxes and bike rides and loves your daddy and they never ever say a mean word to each other and they never drink or smoke and you always have a safe home and so forth. why would you possibly need to know about life outside your bubble?


(time until this gets reported?)

 

[Radishguy]

Are you a peer prehealth advisor? Do those exist in your campus?

Every college I know has done office of community engagement and even a day of service, though this may not include all colleges. Does your institution have an office like this?

I am not. I don’t believe my school has peer health advisors. They have regular health advisors, but everyone who has emailed me questions have been questions they are afraid to ask the actual health advisors because they think they are someone related to the admissions process. So peer health advisor would be a great thing for my school to have.

 

[Radishguy]

......................................... because you're going into a job that works with a lot of normal people on their worst days and "chicks, money, power, and chicks" ain't gonna do it? because at the end of the day, you'll be in a service role? because you have to know about giving up your time and your wants in aid of other people? to learn about the messiness of the real world? because most doctor applicants are, relatively speaking, well off and hugely privileged? because most of you have no idea what it means to not have shelter or food or education or be surrounded by drug wars and violence? because most of you are so comfortable in your lives that you've never even thought for yourself about how other people-- the vast majority of people, the ones who aren't wasting time on this or similar hellsites-- actually live?

so yeah, suck it up, get off your butt, and toddle off to the still-middle-class elementary down the street to read to some kindergartners. buddy up and pick up some trash. join the school field trip to the soup kitchen where you can take your saviour on insta pics and get some clout.

"a classist policy catering to rich kids"? for god's sake. volunteering isn't supposed to be about making yourself look good,.

this is like when you guys had episodes over the addition of psych/soc to the mewocat. liek idk, greg, why would potential future doctors need to have even the barest grasp of the most basic concepts of the fundamentals of human psychosocial development and societal constructs which impact health? yes, you, whose mommy has always scheduled the pediatrician appointments and make sure you got your veggies and milk and vaxes and bike rides and loves your daddy and they never ever say a mean word to each other and they never drink or smoke and you always have a safe home and so forth. why would you possibly need to know about life outside your bubble?


(time until this gets reported?)

Thank you stinkycheese. I no longer feel bad about my advice. Is this advice free to share? I’m thinking about turning it into a form reply

 

[LindaAccepted]

While I was a TA last semester, I sent out an email to the class after a particularly difficult exam with a really low average that told a little about my origin story and the difficulties I had during freshman year. That email led to me being a kind of sounding board for tons of young college kids, many of whom will be applying to medical school. While I don’t necessarily mind the emails, I sometimes just don’t know what to tell them. One of the emails I recently got made me feel kind of bad about the advice I gave, which was essentially just “suck it up.”

The issue was with volunteering hours and this student’s difficulty getting to them. The problem is that he doesn’t have a car and his parents are controlling his budget to the point that he doesn’t even have enough money to get a bus pass. I told him that he should try getting a job as a scribe, there are always posting for them at our school, and then he will have a little bit of income coming in so he can afford to get around, plus he’ll have the added benefit of some clinical experience. He said that his parents won’t let him do that because they are (I think really he is) afraid it will interfere with his studies. That’s when I basically said suck it up and get it done. Find a way. And that’s just not very good advice.

In the past, I’ve always compared them to what I have going on now, with kids, a wife, a mortgage, 20 credits a semester, etc. and I was still able to fit around 500 hours of volunteering in. But I never compared them to my situation when I was their age. Afterwards, I thought about it more, and I compared it to my situation when I was first an undergrad, and I realized how truly horrible that advice was. The worst part is, this wasn’t the first person I gave this bad advice to. Our situations were a bit different, but the end results were very similar. In my place, I ended up having a sudden need for income during my freshman year that made it so I had to work more than full time while attending school. I barely held it together then, but if I would’ve tried to add a large amount of volunteering into the mix, I just wouldn’t have been able to do it.

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

Try getting a job where he gets paid to serve others. It can be on campus or close to campus.

Medicine is about service. Applicants have to show that they are committed to serving and that they know what they're getting into.

Regarding the student whose parents had him on a very tight leash -- that sounds like a toxic, dysfunctional or at least atypical situation. We don't know if the kids is spending money such that he's burning through a reasonable allowance, or if the parents are trying to control him via the purse. Most kids and parents are not in that situation. Many are struggling to fully or partially support themselves and do all that med school admissions requires. That's one of the reasons gap years can be very useful.

 

[eigen]

Honestly, for a lot of students, this is why taking 1+ gap years is the best way to put together a competitive application.

 

[Radishguy]

Try getting a job where he gets paid to serve others. It can be on campus or close to campus.

Medicine is about service. Applicants have to show that they are committed to serving and that they know what they're getting into.

Regarding the student whose parents had him on a very tight leash -- that sounds like a toxic, dysfunctional or at least atypical situation. We don't know if the kids is spending money such that he's burning through a reasonable allowance, or if the parents are trying to control him via the purse. Most kids and parents are not in that situation. Many are struggling to fully or partially support themselves and do all that med school admissions requires. That's one of the reasons gap years can be very useful.

So, is that an option for people—working for pay in an area that serves? That’s one of the hard parts of navigating these unofficial/official requirements, no one has a clear answer on what counts for what. In your opinion would it be okay to forgo volunteering for a paid position that works to serve the less fortunate?

As for the student, I think he just doesn’t want to put in the time and wanted someone to tell him that was okay. That being said, I have had other students email me or come by office hours and tell me that they were having serious problems with different aspects of this process because of food insecurity and/or housing insecurity, or plain old-fashioned homelessness. Those people weren’t worried about volunteering at the time, they were worried about grades and getting housing, but I’m sure it is something they are going to have to worry about in the future. So he may or may not have been giving the full story, but he’s honestly the only person who has come to me who I had even the slightest doubt about their truthfulness.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Even my friends at schools in the middle of nowhere had plenty of opportunities to volunteer on weekends. Usually schools either have cars/vans that they allow clubs to use or some club members have permission to drive others.

 

[Radishguy]

Even my friends at schools in the middle of nowhere had plenty of opportunities to volunteer on weekends. Usually schools either have cars/vans that they allow clubs to use or some club members have permission to drive others.

My school might’ve had something like that before Covid, but really it’s only been a few months since most of the big volunteer places started taking volunteers again. So, there’s nothing like that up and running again yet.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I always presume that students have more than one opportunity to hear advice. You are not the only person that should be giving them advice, and it's definitely possible they are just shopping for advice that conforms to what they want to hear or else that they feel they have been heard. There are a number of different factors the student is trying to handle and wants to know if this is something they can get a shortcut on because of the situation.

The best authority to give the final advice ("no, you have to still do this") would be admissions committee members and current students who came from a similar circumstance but found a way to get into school. Comparing their situation with your own risks giving off generational "old person" vibes (back in the day when I went to school, we had no air conditioning, etc., etc.) and then the student shuts out your advice.

 

[jhmmd]

While I was a TA last semester, I sent out an email to the class after a particularly difficult exam with a really low average that told a little about my origin story and the difficulties I had during freshman year. That email led to me being a kind of sounding board for tons of young college kids, many of whom will be applying to medical school. While I don’t necessarily mind the emails, I sometimes just don’t know what to tell them. One of the emails I recently got made me feel kind of bad about the advice I gave, which was essentially just “suck it up.”

The issue was with volunteering hours and this student’s difficulty getting to them. The problem is that he doesn’t have a car and his parents are controlling his budget to the point that he doesn’t even have enough money to get a bus pass. I told him that he should try getting a job as a scribe, there are always posting for them at our school, and then he will have a little bit of income coming in so he can afford to get around, plus he’ll have the added benefit of some clinical experience. He said that his parents won’t let him do that because they are (I think really he is) afraid it will interfere with his studies. That’s when I basically said suck it up and get it done. Find a way. And that’s just not very good advice.

In the past, I’ve always compared them to what I have going on now, with kids, a wife, a mortgage, 20 credits a semester, etc. and I was still able to fit around 500 hours of volunteering in. But I never compared them to my situation when I was their age. Afterwards, I thought about it more, and I compared it to my situation when I was first an undergrad, and I realized how truly horrible that advice was. The worst part is, this wasn’t the first person I gave this bad advice to. Our situations were a bit different, but the end results were very similar. In my place, I ended up having a sudden need for income during my freshman year that made it so I had to work more than full time while attending school. I barely held it together then, but if I would’ve tried to add a large amount of volunteering into the mix, I just wouldn’t have been able to do it.

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

In a nutshell: Medicine is a service-oriented profession. It is not a 9-5. On surgery rotations, you will have pre-rounds from 3:30 a.m.-4:30, rounds from 4:30-5, and grand rounds from 5-6 or so. You will be pulling 24+ hour shifts and sometimes 36+ hour shifts. Work is not over when you sign out. The work is over when it's over.

Medical schools do not want people who do not care enough to stay until the work is done. You need to have demonstrated a commitment to the profession.

 

[Radishguy]

I always presume that students have more than one opportunity to hear advice. You are not the only person that should be giving them advice, and it's definitely possible they are just shopping for advice that conforms to what they want to hear or else that they feel they have been heard. There are a number of different factors the student is trying to handle and wants to know if this is something they can get a shortcut on because of the situation.

The best authority to give the final advice ("no, you have to still do this") would be admissions committee members and current students who came from a similar circumstance but found a way to get into school. Comparing their situation with your own risks giving off generational "old person" vibes (back in the day when I went to school, we had no air conditioning, etc., etc.) and then the student shuts out your advice.

That’s one of the things I’m trying to avoid and why I brought it up, because I’ve been guilty of it in the past. After all, what’s the good in walking 5 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways if you never get to tell random strangers about it?

 

[jhmmd]

That’s one of the things I’m trying to avoid and why I brought it up, because I’ve been guilty of it in the past. After all, what’s the good in walking 5 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways if you never get to tell random strangers about it?

They haven't walked in the same shoes?

 

[Neuroscifan]

That’s one of the things I’m trying to avoid and why I brought it up, because I’ve been guilty of it in the past. After all, what’s the good in walking 5 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways if you never get to tell random strangers about it?

The best counsel I got was when I visited an MD school my sophomore year. We got to ask the dean of admissions questions in an informal Q&A, and someone asked pretty much this same question. He said that for every student who asks this question, there are 2 other students with the exact situation but are managing to volunteer. Every applicant is competing with others who come from the same or worse backgrounds who are willing to do more. Unfortunately, medicine is a competitive field, and there isn't a lot of room for sympathy toward those who feel that they don't have the time to get everything done. The real question at the end of the day has to be "are you passionate enough to do more." Exactly like jhmmd said above: the life of a physician isn't a 9-5 life, especially not on the path to becoming a physician. If you aren't passionate enough to do more, then you may not be passionate enough to outlast the rigors of medical school, residency, or daily life as a doctor.

 

[Radishguy]

I think I failed to adequately get my question across. The point was why the emphasis specifically on volunteering. Let me give an example that better expresses my point.

There is a guy I used to see kind of often who worked for the power company. He worked in a really high crime/low income area and the first time I met him he was shot at while trying to turn on power to someone’s house. (The person doing the shooting thought he was turning it off). I asked him why he was the only power guy I regularly saw and he said he was the only one who volunteered to go to that area.

So, let’s say he decided to apply to medical school. Let’s pretend he was a normal college-aged kid and did this work for 10 hours a week while attending college. He also worked, for pay, as a scribe for 10 hours a week. Let’s call him Applicant W.

Now let’s say there is similarly aged student from the same school who also worked for a total of 20 hours a week, let’s call him Applicant A. Applicant A has the same grades and MCAT scores as Applicant W, but where they differ is that Applicant A volunteers as a scribe for 10 hours a week and volunteers at a soup kitchen for another 10 hours a week.

They both apply to the same medical schools, and their names probably say their results. After all, Applicant Accepted has a thousand hours of volunteering and Applicant Waitlisted has zero.

You cannot tell me that Applicant A is doing a better service to his community just because they aren’t getting paid for what they do. I am clearly not on any admissions committees, but I have been on some hiring committees, and I would hands down take 1 Applicant W over a hundred Applicant As.

Or an even more apple to apple comparison, let’s say that, instead of turning on power, Applicant A worked at a McDonald’s in the same low income/high crime area. Now both applicants are providing the same service except one of them has a very real risk of being robbed or caught in the middle of a shooting, as often happens at the McDonald’s in the area this person worked. But who will the adcoms pick? The applicant with 1000+ volunteer hours, or the one with none who spent their free time flipping burgers? Why?

 

[LindaAccepted]

So, is that an option for people—working for pay in an area that serves? That’s one of the hard parts of navigating these unofficial/official requirements, no one has a clear answer on what counts for what. In your opinion would it be okay to forgo volunteering for a paid position that works to serve the less fortunate?

As for the student, I think he just doesn’t want to put in the time and wanted someone to tell him that was okay. That being said, I have had other students email me or come by office hours and tell me that they were having serious problems with different aspects of this process because of food insecurity and/or housing insecurity, or plain old-fashioned homelessness. Those people weren’t worried about volunteering at the time, they were worried about grades and getting housing, but I’m sure it is something they are going to have to worry about in the future. So he may or may not have been giving the full story, but he’s honestly the only person who has come to me who I had even the slightest doubt about their truthfulness.

Yes. Unequivocally. Paid clinical or non-clinical service positions "count." They frequently entail greater responsibility than a purely volunteer position too. If someone is from a lower SES and needs to work to put a roof over their head or food on the table, then getting a paid clinical position is one way to show commitment to medicine and support oneself. Hopefully that person will also have some time (not a lot) to volunteer in a non-clinical community service setting . Or give themselves a break, and take a gap year to get it all in..

 

[jhmmd]

I think I failed to adequately get my question across. The point was why the emphasis specifically on volunteering. Let me give an example that better expresses my point.

There is a guy I used to see kind of often who worked for the power company. He worked in a really high crime/low income area and the first time I met him he was shot at while trying to turn on power to someone’s house. (The person doing the shooting thought he was turning it off). I asked him why he was the only power guy I regularly saw and he said he was the only one who volunteered to go to that area.

So, let’s say he decided to apply to medical school. Let’s pretend he was a normal college-aged kid and did this work for 10 hours a week while attending college. He also worked, for pay, as a scribe for 10 hours a week. Let’s call him Applicant W.

Now let’s say there is similarly aged student from the same school who also worked for a total of 20 hours a week, let’s call him Applicant A. Applicant A has the same grades and MCAT scores as Applicant W, but where they differ is that Applicant A volunteers as a scribe for 10 hours a week and volunteers at a soup kitchen for another 10 hours a week.

They both apply to the same medical schools, and their names probably say their results. After all, Applicant Accepted has a thousand hours of volunteering and Applicant Waitlisted has zero.

You cannot tell me that Applicant A is doing a better service to his community just because they aren’t getting paid for what they do. I am clearly not on any admissions committees, but I have been on some hiring committees, and I would hands down take 1 Applicant W over a hundred Applicant As.

Or an even more apple to apple comparison, let’s say that, instead of turning on power, Applicant A worked at a McDonald’s in the same low income/high crime area. Now both applicants are providing the same service except one of them has a very real risk of being robbed or caught in the middle of a shooting, as often happens at the McDonald’s in the area this person worked. But who will the adcoms pick? The applicant with 1000+ volunteer hours, or the one with none who spent their free time flipping burgers? Why?

1. Again, you are oversimplifying things and missing the point. There are more things that factor into admissions decisions than simply grades/MCAT and diversity/whatever you were referring to above--LoRs, other activities, PS, course load/major, etc. You originally asked why volunteering matters. People answered your question.
2. I am failing to see why the 2nd bolded point is "an even more apple to apple comparision." LOL. Like I said above, there is more that goes into the equation than socioeconomics. Med schools like nontrads who can convey their ability to relate to all different types of people due to their varied experiences--so to answer the last part of your post, if applicant W has zero volunteering hours but aces the interview and applicant A has thousands of volunteering hours and aces the interview too...then things get more complicated.

You are getting too into hypotheticals. If you are trying to plan out out work and activities for your app, it would behoove you to spend some time working with the underprivileged yourself because it doesn't sound like you have really gotten your hands dirty yet. McDonald's pays $15 an hour now in some areas, so I say if one is inclined to flip the proverbial burger then more power to them.

 

[Radishguy]

1. Again, you are oversimplifying things and missing the point. There are more things that factor into admissions decisions than simply grades/MCAT and diversity/whatever you were referring to above--LoRs, other activities, PS, course load/major, etc. You originally asked why volunteering matters. People answered your question.
2. I am failing to see why the 2nd bolded point is "an even more apple to apple comparision." LOL. Like I said above, there is more that goes into the equation than socioeconomics. Med schools like nontrads who can convey their ability to relate to all different types of people due to their varied experiences--so to answer the last part of your post, if applicant W has zero volunteering hours but aces the interview and applicant A has thousands of volunteering hours and aces the interview too...then things get more complicated.

You are getting too into hypotheticals. If you are trying to plan out out work and activities for your app, it would behoove you to spend some time working with the underprivileged yourself because it doesn't sound like you have really gotten your hands dirty yet. McDonald's pays $15 an hour now in some areas, so I say if one is inclined to flip the proverbial burger then more power to them.

I promise you I have already gotten my “hands dirty” in working with underprivileged people. First, I was one of those “dirty” people. I was born to a teen mom in a trailer park. I saw my first drive-by when I was 8. I was homeless at two separate points in my life. Then when I was the first person in my entire extended family to go to college, I toughed it out like everyone here seems to think people can just do. I got through it. I did volunteering. I got into graduate schools, I got the degrees. Then I turned down a lot of very lucrative jobs to work 100% in community service. And for years, I did that community service going into the homes of the most underprivileged. And what I learned through that is my story is not unique. I am not some special person just because I had it hard and made it through. I didn’t do all that because I am somehow better than every other person, I did it because I was luckier than all those others. I caught the right breaks at the right times. That’s all. Yeah, I had it hard, but a lot of people have it a lot harder. That’s why I chose this route. I thought I could do more good for more people by opening a primary care office in my old neighborhood, an area that has exactly zero primary care offices getting their hands dirty. And those people, the ones who had it harder than me, they are the ones who generally reach out to me. They heard my story, so they try to figure out a way to make it work by asking me. Maybe because everyone else just says figure out a way—like I used to.

Those people are the people I am asking for. My application is done. So, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but I really am just asking so I give the right advice in the future. The workaround I want to tell people is it’s okay to work instead of volunteering. If you need to put food on your table, you can do that, as a college-aged kid, and still get into medical school. Is that something I can tell people who ask or no?

 

[LindaAccepted]

I promise you I have already gotten my “hands dirty” in working with underprivileged people. First, I was one of those “dirty” people. I was born to a teen mom in a trailer park. I saw my first drive-by when I was 8. I was homeless at two separate points in my life. Then when I was the first person in my entire extended family to go to college, I toughed it out like everyone here seems to think people can just do. I got through it. I did volunteering. I got into graduate schools, I got the degrees. Then I turned down a lot of very lucrative jobs to work 100% in community service. And for years, I did that community service going into the homes of the most underprivileged. And what I learned through that is my story is not unique. I am not some special person just because I had it hard and made it through. I didn’t do all that because I am somehow better than every other person, I did it because I was luckier than all those others. I caught the right breaks at the right times. That’s all. Yeah, I had it hard, but a lot of people have it a lot harder. That’s why I chose this route. I thought I could do more good for more people by opening a primary care office in my old neighborhood, an area that has exactly zero primary care offices getting their hands dirty. And those people, the ones who had it harder than me, they are the ones who generally reach out to me. They heard my story, so they try to figure out a way to make it work by asking me. Maybe because everyone else just says figure out a way—like I used to.

Those people are the people I am asking for. My application is done. So, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but I really am just asking so I give the right advice in the future. The workaround I want to tell people is it’s okay to work instead of volunteering. If you need to put food on your table, you can do that, as a college-aged kid, and still get into medical school. Is that something I can tell people who ask or no?

yes.

 

[stinkycheeseperson]

They need to do something. Whether that's spending 2 hours a week helping out the old people or tutoring the kids or whatever. It doesn't have to be a lot it doesn't have to be fancy it needs to say that they are invested in somebody besides themselves when nothing they're getting for it besides the satisfaction of a job well done and maybe a thank you note

 

[jhmmd]

I promise you I have already gotten my “hands dirty” in working with underprivileged people. First, I was one of those “dirty” people. I was born to a teen mom in a trailer park. I saw my first drive-by when I was 8. I was homeless at two separate points in my life. Then when I was the first person in my entire extended family to go to college, I toughed it out like everyone here seems to think people can just do. I got through it. I did volunteering. I got into graduate schools, I got the degrees. Then I turned down a lot of very lucrative jobs to work 100% in community service. And for years, I did that community service going into the homes of the most underprivileged. And what I learned through that is my story is not unique. I am not some special person just because I had it hard and made it through. I didn’t do all that because I am somehow better than every other person, I did it because I was luckier than all those others. I caught the right breaks at the right times. That’s all. Yeah, I had it hard, but a lot of people have it a lot harder. That’s why I chose this route. I thought I could do more good for more people by opening a primary care office in my old neighborhood, an area that has exactly zero primary care offices getting their hands dirty. And those people, the ones who had it harder than me, they are the ones who generally reach out to me. They heard my story, so they try to figure out a way to make it work by asking me. Maybe because everyone else just says figure out a way—like I used to.

Those people are the people I am asking for. My application is done. So, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but I really am just asking so I give the right advice in the future. The workaround I want to tell people is it’s okay to work instead of volunteering. If you need to put food on your table, you can do that, as a college-aged kid, and still get into medical school. Is that something I can tell people who ask or no?

Sounds like you have it all figured out then

 

[aldol16]

Because medicine is ultimately about altruism (to an extent - at some point, the other factors take over). You are sacrificing years of your life and your career to help others who need your help. As a doctor, you will be paid to do this but pay shouldn't be your only motivation to go into this field. There are much easier ways to make more money with less work. As a volunteer, you are exhibiting some of these same principles and qualities that are desirable in future physicians.

That's not to say that not everyone has the means to volunteer and not everyone has the opportunity to even if they want to. However, I will say there are many opportunities out there other than the conventional roles that can be found.

 

[Goro]

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

They should work, save up their money and when they have enough, get a car and then do what needs to be done.

Then you can also ask him: "

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

From the wise LizzyM: I am always reminded of a certain frequent poster of a few years ago. He was adamant about not volunteering as he did not want to give his services for free and he was busy and helping others was inconvenient. He matriculated to a medical school and lasted less than one year. He's now in school to become an accountant.

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer's or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

Service need not be "unique"; it can be anything that helps people unable to help themselves and that is outside of a patient-care setting. If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching literacy or ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Meals on Wheels, mentoring immigrant/refugee adults, being a friendly visitor to shut-ins, adaptive sports program coach or Special Olympics.

 

[Radishguy]

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

They should work, save up their money and when they have enough, get a car and then do what needs to be done.

Then you can also ask him: "

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

From the wise LizzyM: I am always reminded of a certain frequent poster of a few years ago. He was adamant about not volunteering as he did not want to give his services for free and he was busy and helping others was inconvenient. He matriculated to a medical school and lasted less than one year. He's now in school to become an accountant.

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer's or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

Service need not be "unique"; it can be anything that helps people unable to help themselves and that is outside of a patient-care setting. If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching literacy or ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Meals on Wheels, mentoring immigrant/refugee adults, being a friendly visitor to shut-ins, adaptive sports program coach or Special Olympics.

Work near campus in order to save up to get a car so he could volunteer, was exactly what I told him. Afterwords, I felt bad about it because of what Mr. Smile said about the old person vibes. I don’t really agree with the classist comment, but I see where he is coming from. It is definitely easier for people who aren’t worried about tuition or housing or food to donate their time. But at the same time, you are absolutely right about trying on the suit— you need to know the person can handle it, and without any evidence to that point, there’s really nothing to try on. I get it.

I didn’t mean to make this my hill to die on, but I also didn’t want to walk away without getting a definitive answer. I think I got it. Volunteering is a necessity that cannot truly be filled in by other means. I will continue to give the same advice I have been giving. LindaAccepted, I am not discounting what you said, this is just a majority rules thing.

 

[Neuroscifan]

Work near campus in order to save up to get a car so he could volunteer, was exactly what I told him. Afterwords, I felt bad about it because of what Mr. Smile said about the old person vibes. I don’t really agree with the classist comment, but I see where he is coming from. It is definitely easier for people who aren’t worried about tuition or housing or food to donate their time. But at the same time, you are absolutely right about trying on the suit— you need to know the person can handle it, and without any evidence to that point, there’s really nothing to try on. I get it.

I didn’t mean to make this my hill to die on, but I also didn’t want to walk away without getting a definitive answer. I think I got it. Volunteering is a necessity that cannot truly be filled in by other means. I will continue to give the same advice I have been giving. LindaAccepted, I am not discounting what you said, this is just a majority rules thing.

I would give the same advice. Students need a realistic answer to a really tough question. Applying to medical school is not an easy thing for the vast majority of people. For some, it is certainly harder than for others. But at the end of the day, these students need to understand that there are applicants that look identical to them on paper who are sacrificing sleep, hobbies, leisure time, and years of their lives to demonstrate to ADCOMS that they have an undeniable passion for medicine and helping others. Being candid and not sugar-coating these things is important, in my opinion, so students know what they're getting into before they spend the time and effort pursuing something that they may not be passionate enough about to see through.

 

[jhmmd]

Another way to answer this very interesting question is that you will need to have some volunteering for your app no matter which way you look at it. The students the OP is advising will need this some way some how, whether this means sacrificing their time on weekends to head over to the VA/peds ward/trauma center/etc., or simply by doing any of the activities that Goro described above. There are many ways to skin a cat. If you want it bad enough, you will make it happen.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Work near campus in order to save up to get a car so he could volunteer, was exactly what I told him. Afterwords, I felt bad about it because of what Mr. Smile said about the old person vibes. I don’t really agree with the classist comment, but I see where he is coming from. It is definitely easier for people who aren’t worried about tuition or housing or food to donate their time. But at the same time, you are absolutely right about trying on the suit— you need to know the person can handle it, and without any evidence to that point, there’s really nothing to try on. I get it.

I didn’t mean to make this my hill to die on, but I also didn’t want to walk away without getting a definitive answer. I think I got it. Volunteering is a necessity that cannot truly be filled in by other means. I will continue to give the same advice I have been giving. LindaAccepted, I am not discounting what you said, this is just a majority rules thing.

Just to clarify, in my longer answer I also said "Hopefully that person (the person who needs to work) will also have some time (not a lot) to volunteer in a non-clinical community service setting . Or give themselves a break, and take a gap year to get it all in."

 

[jhmmd]

Here, I am going to give in my 2 cents. Back in high school, I knew similar kids like this. They were very studious and kind but their sense of life and real world experience was extremely stunted because how much their parents micro-managed their lives. They were not allowed to have any sort of social media or play video games and all they would do is study. Nevertheless, as mean as it sounds if these kids wanted to pursue a career in medicine, they would struggle greatly because they do not have the experience or understanding that someone who has volunteered or worked for part time has. Also, volunteering goes beyond just showing adcoms that your a "good" person, it teaches you how to interact and care for others that you would have never encountered or understanded if you didn't take the time to volunteer.

So basically what I am saying through this vomit of text is that this student has find their own path. If they truly want to be a doctor, they have to be proactive and take risks. Sure, volunteering and working part time may hinder their gpa. But, they have to learn how to adapt to time constraints and build sufficient study skills. Otherwise med school or the MCAT is going grant them a scary awakening which they could of avoided by building good time management skill now.

My ears hurted reading this post. I just thought I would add that

 

[PONS]

My ears hurted reading this post. I just thought I would add that

Wdym

 

[jhmmd]

Wdym

Just a joke

 

[jhmmd]

@laffingdead @laffytaffy19 @dyanaface

 

[jhmmd]

^^The above is just a joke too, in case anyone needs any further clarification

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

While I was a TA last semester, I sent out an email to the class after a particularly difficult exam with a really low average that told a little about my origin story and the difficulties I had during freshman year. That email led to me being a kind of sounding board for tons of young college kids, many of whom will be applying to medical school. While I don’t necessarily mind the emails, I sometimes just don’t know what to tell them. One of the emails I recently got made me feel kind of bad about the advice I gave, which was essentially just “suck it up.”

The issue was with volunteering hours and this student’s difficulty getting to them. The problem is that he doesn’t have a car and his parents are controlling his budget to the point that he doesn’t even have enough money to get a bus pass. I told him that he should try getting a job as a scribe, there are always posting for them at our school, and then he will have a little bit of income coming in so he can afford to get around, plus he’ll have the added benefit of some clinical experience. He said that his parents won’t let him do that because they are (I think really he is) afraid it will interfere with his studies. That’s when I basically said suck it up and get it done. Find a way. And that’s just not very good advice.

In the past, I’ve always compared them to what I have going on now, with kids, a wife, a mortgage, 20 credits a semester, etc. and I was still able to fit around 500 hours of volunteering in. But I never compared them to my situation when I was their age. Afterwards, I thought about it more, and I compared it to my situation when I was first an undergrad, and I realized how truly horrible that advice was. The worst part is, this wasn’t the first person I gave this bad advice to. Our situations were a bit different, but the end results were very similar. In my place, I ended up having a sudden need for income during my freshman year that made it so I had to work more than full time while attending school. I barely held it together then, but if I would’ve tried to add a large amount of volunteering into the mix, I just wouldn’t have been able to do it.

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

This whole business stems from one particular problem: The number of academically qualified applicants to MD granting medical schools vastly exceeds the number of available seats. Medical schools use a number of soft criteria such as essays, letters of recommendation and volunteering to screen out applicants. Medical schools have to have a reason to say "no" and they use this invalid malarkey as their reason.

All of this works to the disadvantage of working class applicants who don't have the time or money to volunteer. Furthermore, working class kids don't have mentors to tell them which sort of volunteering is impressive at any particular medical school.

Threads abound on this site regarding which sort of jobs will substitute for volunteering. Does working as a pharmacy tech, scribe or nursing assistant fill the bill? Nobody knows for sure. It's straight out of Kafka.

The use of these soft criteria is one of the key reasons that medical schools are chock full of rich kids. Rich kids have the time, energy and money to volunteer. They also have mentors to guide them through the process. Now you know.

 

[Radishguy]

This whole business stems from one particular problem: The number of academically qualified applicants to MD granting medical schools vastly exceeds the number of available seats. Medical schools use a number of soft criteria such as essays, letters of recommendation and volunteering to screen out applicants. Medical schools have to have a reason to say "no" and they use this invalid malarkey as their reason.

All of this works to the disadvantage of working class applicants who don't have the time or money to volunteer. Furthermore, working class kids don't have mentors to tell them which sort of volunteering is impressive at any particular medical school.

Threads abound on this site regarding which sort of jobs will substitute for volunteering. Does working as a pharmacy tech, scribe or nursing assistant fill the bill? Nobody knows for sure. It's straight out of Kafka.

The use of these soft criteria is one of the key reasons that medical schools are chock full of rich kids. Rich kids have the time, energy and money to volunteer. They also have mentors to guide them through the process. Now you know.

Like I said, the kid wasn’t exactly wrong calling it classist. But like Goro said, there needs to be some criteria for “trying on” an applicant. There just also needs to be something put in place that equals all that out. Honestly, I don’t know what that is, but until medical schools figure it out, all the talk about becoming more inclusive and equitable is all just lip service.

 

[LizzyM]

One alternative for working class kids is to join the military. Employment, volunteerism, clinical experience (in some instances), leadership (ditto) and it is usually equivalent to a 0.5 bump in GPA in terms of adcom respect.

 

[stinkycheeseperson]

The rhetoric around this has always perturbed me somewhat. "Service to those less fortunate to yourself" implies that you yourself are fortunate, yes? It, in a way, looks down on lower-classes as those which we should serve, rather than ever considering that the applicant themselves comes from that class.

if you can consider apply to med school you're fortunate. you're priveleged. how pretentious.

don't be precious about this.

there's always someone worse off, point 1. point dos, there's always someone who you can HELP in some way aka the whole freaking point of this profession. trois point, don't make service gross like that. it's not pandering. it's using all the things you've been given to make the world better.

get off your butt and go do it.

 

[Ganon]

One alternative for working class kids is to join the military. Employment, volunteerism, clinical experience (in some instances), leadership (ditto) and it is usually equivalent to a 0.5 bump in GPA in terms of adcom respect.

I really don’t like the idea of shunting “working class kids” into the military to bolster a medical school application. Obviously I defer to your wisdom on the subject, but from a classism perspective… yikes.

OP, my advice is that many of us nontrads had to take a different application schedule, so for underprivileged students they may need the same. If someone cannot work/do premed studies/volunteer enough to be accepted, the answer should be that they may need an extra year to build their application prior to applying. Finish school, then that frees up time for other activities. Personally, I had to have a gap year between premed and med school, and it worked out fine.

People do this ALL THE TIME for academic reasons/MCAT retakes/whatever, but if application review is truly holistic it stands that that time may be needed for volunteering or shadowing or research etc

 

[LizzyM]

I really don’t like the idea of shunting “working class kids” into the military to bolster a medical school application. Obviously I defer to your wisdom on the subject, but from a classism perspective… yikes.

OP, my advice is that many of us nontrads had to take a different application schedule, so for underprivileged students they may need the same. If someone cannot work/do premed studies/volunteer enough to be accepted, the answer should be that they may need an extra year to build their application prior to applying. Finish school, then that frees up time for other activities. Personally, I had to have a gap year between premed and med school, and it worked out fine.

People do this ALL THE TIME for academic reasons/MCAT retakes/whatever, but if application review is truly holistic it stands that that time may be needed for volunteering or shadowing or research etc

I'm not shunting working class kids to the military. I'm saying that it is one alternative among many. One of the strongest applicants I ever, ever saw (in real life) was born of a teen mom, joined the military right out of HS, went on to a service academy, MS degree and leadership position before becoming a non-trad MD applicant. He was admitted to at least 2 T5 schools as well as at least 5 others (I lost count - this was back in the day when AAMC shared that info.) He had almost no research or "non-clinical volunteering" but he stood out in other ways.

 

[CoopKid]

if you can consider apply to med school you're fortunate. you're priveleged. how pretentious.

don't be precious about this.

there's always someone worse off, point 1. point dos, there's always someone who you can HELP in some way aka the whole freaking point of this profession. trois point, don't make service gross like that. it's not pandering. it's using all the things you've been given to make the world better.

get off your butt and go do it.

I (generally) agree that if you can afford to apply to med school there's a great degree of privilege, although that isn't to say someone can't have faced some form of adversity or challenges. My concern is that adcoms see volunteer service as a proxy for empathy and caring, which is incredibly naive. There are plenty of pre-meds who commit hundreds of hours of service in service to their own ends, not because they genuinely care about disadvantaged populations/people. Those same people, years down the road and wielding some actual influence, will never advocate for the changing of oppressive systems and structures that adversely affect health outcomes (particularly at the level of their own community,) because it's "uncomfortable".

 

[jhmmd]

Besides what cheesehead is saying, my concern is that adcoms see volunteer service as a proxy for empathy and caring, which is incredibly naive. There are plenty of pre-meds who commit hundreds of hours of service in service to their own ends, not because they genuinely care about disadvantaged populations/people. Those same people, years down the road and wielding some actual influence, will never advocate for the changing of oppressive systems and structures that adversely affect health outcomes (particularly at the level of their own community,) because it's "uncomfortable". It's the same thing as philanthropists being praised even though they're the same people who benefit from systems that perpetuate financial inequities.

I think the basic idea is that even if you're only doing it as a means to an end...the point is that you cared enough to get these (usually hundreds) of volunteering hours in. That alone should say something. If it doesn't...well I don't know what to tell you. Getting entrenched in the healthcare system is usually enough (for the ones who stick it out) to create bonds with patients, planting the seed to spark change later on. It's hard to find a pre-med who has 250+ hours of clinical volunteering and didn't start caring about the people they saw/became less naive--that's what I'm saying.

I am not sure that I understand the last (bolded) sentence.

 

[nimbus]

Speaking as someone who only started volunteering after I completed training when one of my work friends talked me into it, I don’t like the idea of compulsory volunteerism. Volunteering should be voluntary and self motivated. Not to check off a box. Also you can afford to be more generous with your skills and your money after you complete training. Forcing premeds to volunteer is backwards. Our organization is always trying to recruit young plastic surgeons, pediatric surgeons, pediatric urologists and anesthesiologists. We have a lot of old timers but we are getting pretty long in the tooth and are worried about who will carry on this work. I can also tell you that the vast majority of medical school faculty are not standing in line to volunteer. We have tried to recruit them.

 

[nimbus]

I really don’t like the idea of shunting “working class kids” into the military to bolster a medical school application. Obviously I defer to your wisdom on the subject, but from a classism perspective… yikes.

OP, my advice is that many of us nontrads had to take a different application schedule, so for underprivileged students they may need the same. If someone cannot work/do premed studies/volunteer enough to be accepted, the answer should be that they may need an extra year to build their application prior to applying. Finish school, then that frees up time for other activities. Personally, I had to have a gap year between premed and med school, and it worked out fine.

People do this ALL THE TIME for academic reasons/MCAT retakes/whatever, but if application review is truly holistic it stands that that time may be needed for volunteering or shadowing or research etc

During residency I had an attending who was an Air Force fighter pilot in Vietnam. He always wanted to fly and was thrilled with all the experience and flight training he received on the government dime. That was until he actually went to Vietnam and a bullet hit his canopy.


The military can be a great pathway to medical school unless you end up dead or severely injured enroute.

 

[oldman]

While I was a TA last semester, I sent out an email to the class after a particularly difficult exam with a really low average that told a little about my origin story and the difficulties I had during freshman year. That email led to me being a kind of sounding board for tons of young college kids, many of whom will be applying to medical school. While I don’t necessarily mind the emails, I sometimes just don’t know what to tell them. One of the emails I recently got made me feel kind of bad about the advice I gave, which was essentially just “suck it up.”

The issue was with volunteering hours and this student’s difficulty getting to them. The problem is that he doesn’t have a car and his parents are controlling his budget to the point that he doesn’t even have enough money to get a bus pass. I told him that he should try getting a job as a scribe, there are always posting for them at our school, and then he will have a little bit of income coming in so he can afford to get around, plus he’ll have the added benefit of some clinical experience. He said that his parents won’t let him do that because they are (I think really he is) afraid it will interfere with his studies. That’s when I basically said suck it up and get it done. Find a way. And that’s just not very good advice.

In the past, I’ve always compared them to what I have going on now, with kids, a wife, a mortgage, 20 credits a semester, etc. and I was still able to fit around 500 hours of volunteering in. But I never compared them to my situation when I was their age. Afterwards, I thought about it more, and I compared it to my situation when I was first an undergrad, and I realized how truly horrible that advice was. The worst part is, this wasn’t the first person I gave this bad advice to. Our situations were a bit different, but the end results were very similar. In my place, I ended up having a sudden need for income during my freshman year that made it so I had to work more than full time while attending school. I barely held it together then, but if I would’ve tried to add a large amount of volunteering into the mix, I just wouldn’t have been able to do it.

So what should I say to students who, for one reason or another, can’t get the required volunteer hours? This particular student called it a “classist policy that caters to rich kids” and he’s not exactly wrong. So what are the middle class kids, the ones who won’t qualify for any economic hardship status, but also can’t afford a car to get around, supposed to do?

At my undergrad the volunteer office on campus had a van we could borrow to go off campus. We were only responsible for putting in some gas to replace what we used. We were not charged any rental fees. I purposely scheduled volunteer activities for my organization (at that time I was the volunteer coordinator for my organization) to be on Saturday mornings when I'm not normally working/studying. I didn't expect anyone else in the van to pay for gas and could use money from our organization budget to reimburse me for the gasoline. So as far as volunteering, have the student seek an on campus organization that might have resources to help pay for costs like transportation. Some of my projects were walking distance from the school. I did a project through a program called Junior Achievement at the local elementary school to teach them basic economics I coordinated with the school to show up one week for about a month and it was a 10 minute walk from campus.

Overall if your college/university has a volunteer office - can start there to find out about opportunities.

 

[Neuroscifan]

I (generally) agree that if you can afford to apply to med school there's a great degree of privilege, although that isn't to say someone can't have faced some form of adversity or challenges. My concern is that adcoms see volunteer service as a proxy for empathy and caring, which is incredibly naive. There are plenty of pre-meds who commit hundreds of hours of service in service to their own ends, not because they genuinely care about disadvantaged populations/people. Those same people, years down the road and wielding some actual influence, will never advocate for the changing of oppressive systems and structures that adversely affect health outcomes (particularly at the level of their own community,) because it's "uncomfortable".

Med schools don’t use volunteering as a proxy for empathy really. The interview is used to weed out those who just check boxes, and adcom members are generally experienced at recognizing that. The many reasons stated above are why volunteering is important. It demonstrates, at the very least, that the volunteer is willing to put others first and offer their time. They are willingly putting themselves in situations that force them to grow in perspective and experience. Then they are forced to think about how those experiences have impacted them in the primary application. They then demonstrate their level of growth and real commitment to service of others in the interview. The system isn’t perfect, but it’s seemingly the best way we have found, and experience has shown that it is rather successful, to find individuals who will make successful physicians.

 

[Ganon]

I'm not shunting working class kids to the military. I'm saying that it is one alternative among many. One of the strongest applicants I ever, ever saw (in real life) was born of a teen mom, joined the military right out of HS, went on to a service academy, MS degree and leadership position before becoming a non-trad MD applicant. He was admitted to at least 2 T5 schools as well as at least 5 others (I lost count - this was back in the day when AAMC shared that info.) He had almost no research or "non-clinical volunteering" but he stood out in other ways.

That's a fantastic story!
I have multiple family and friend veteran applicants to medical school who had stellar careers, great accomplishments inside and outside of the military, and didn't have the same experience.

In fact, I think it's important to spend more time guiding the 99% of applicants who are going to have a more "average" experience instead of SDN hyper-fixation on "T5 schools" as if that will be a reality for more than just a handful.

I think if someone wants to join the military they should do so because they want to join the military. Imagine discussing medical school admissions with an applicant who's goal was to become the next Dr. Oz and never practice medicine. They'd be laughed out of the room.

As an aside, military experience as a mechanism for private sector career advancement (largely via the GI bill and other associated tuition assistance programs) has so many moral questions surrounding them that I think giving pause is in order. Right now in our nation tuition forgiveness has largely stalled due to the fear that it will worsen our military recruitment prospects. It's the carrot people still cite as effective now that the baby boomer's facade of outright patriotism has thinned.

 

[nimbus]

Med schools don’t use volunteering as a proxy for empathy really. The interview is used to weed out those who just check boxes, and adcom members are generally experienced at recognizing that. The many reasons stated above are why volunteering is important. It demonstrates, at the very least, that the volunteer is willing to put others first and offer their time. They are willingly putting themselves in situations that force them to grow in perspective and experience. Then they are forced to think about how those experiences have impacted them in the primary application. They then demonstrate their level of growth and real commitment to service of others in the interview. The system isn’t perfect, but it’s seemingly the best way we have found, and experience has shown that it is rather successful, to find individuals who will make successful physicians.

You keep saying willingly. That would be the case if volunteering wasn’t mandatory.


Why do so few physicians continue to volunteer after they are fully trained and can make a larger impact? If you make volunteering mandatory for premeds, they do it because it’s mandatory. It doesn’t select for anything but people who are willing to jump through hoops to achieve their end goal.