Why the emphasis on volunteering?

[vmc303]

I'm interested in becoming a doctor for a lot of different reasons, but frankly, helping people doesn't number too high among them. It's an intellectually challenging career, and I know I'd be good at it, and if people benefit from what I do, that's simply wonderful, but I don't have the burning passon to heal the sick and elevate the oppressed that seems to be a requirement for gaining entrance to med school these days.

I'm not not sure why the schools stress this aspect of medicine so much. Many of the best doctors, it seems, are technically proficient without being overly caring or solicitous toward their patients, and this works out just fine. You don't need to have a humanitarian personality to be a great surgeon or pathologist or radiologist. You just need to be good at what you do. So why do med schools want to see endless hours of volunteering at AIDS clinics or refugee camps as a demonstration of your committment to medicine?

It seems like only a small subset of specialties really need to have that caring, philanthropic personality, yet med schools place disproportianate weight on it when choosing whom to admit. If your neurosurgeon is damn good at what he does, why would you care about his committment to helping people? A lot of students, I'm led to believe, fake it: they volunteer places because they know that's what they have to do, not out of any altruistic committment to healing. Then, once they get into med school, they abandon these pursuits and nevertheless go on to become fine doctors.

Anyone have a good explanation for this? I get the feeling that it hasn't always been this way. Once upon a time, ambition and a powerful intellect were all that were really required. God knows not all doctors in their 40's and 50's today are wonderful people. More importantly, does anyone have any advice for someone who knows he isn't like this, yet is still interested in medicine? Can research experience substitute for volunteering in clinics and whatnot?

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[MWillie]

Well I can think of a couple schools that don't care about that volunteering BS.

 

[kwc1979]

What schools?

 

[ny skindoc]

While there are some pathologists/radiologists who never see patients the great majority of physicians deal directly with patients in one way or another.While you dont have to ge a great humanitarian to be good physician if you are not a "caring' individual the likelihood you will end up a good doctor in almost any specialty is debatable.Psychological and interpersonal issues are often at the core of many medical problems.While its true that there are top surgeons with terrible "people skills" the best of them are indeed humanitarians.In the past medicine was a very different field.Now a high priority is placed on communication and empathy.The public wants physicians to have these skills. Not only in relating to patients but in relating to peers,nurses,ancillary personel.If you are not into "helping people" there are perhaps other more suitable careers as you will have a tough go in med school and beyond..

 

[medic170]

people in professions like medicine or law have a moral responsibility(according to the professions) to use some of their skills to help the underserved, even if it is just a small amount on rare occasions. That's why.

 

[LizzyM]

Have to agree with NY skindoc on the rationale for favoring applicants who have worked in volunteer settings. That said, yes, there are some schools (at least one of the top 20) that will overlook a lack of volunteer experience if the applicant has research experience, particularly if the applicant has received funding and/or published a a paper or even a poster. However, if at the interview the applicant comes off as a total jerk, then an offer of admission won't be on its way.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

maybe because compassion and caring for humanity are high on the lists of what many people look for in a doctor, not to mention helping others. i find it hard to be a clinical doctor without caring about people and wanting to help them. Without those criteria for entering the field i think you're missing a tremendous amount. To be really good at a profession you need to love it and to love those you serve. Otherwise, go into research where you don't have to deal with patients so much and they won't know that you don't really care to help them.

 

[vmc303]

Have to agree with NY skindoc on the rationale for favoring applicants who have worked in volunteer settings. That said, yes, there are some schools (at least one of the top 20) that will overlook a lack of volunteer experience if the applicant has research experience, particularly if the applicant has received funding and/or published a a paper or even a poster. However, if at the interview the applicant comes off as a total jerk, then an offer of admission won't be on its way.

There's a big difference being being a complete jerk and just being someone who just isn't particularly oriented toward helping others. Engineers aren't notably altruistic, and nobody faults them for it. What's wrong with doctors taking this approach? As the science improves and doctors become more like technicians and less like priests or shamans, the necessity for a doctor who is particularly compassionate diminishes. It's a nice thought, but when you really break it down, there isn't a whole lot of room for fuzzy things like altruism and compassion to play a substantial role in today's evidence-based medicine. Doctors apply science to help people get over illnesses. If they're nice people, that's great, but I don't see how it relates at all to their technical skill in healing the human organism.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

There's a big difference being being a complete jerk and just being someone who just isn't particularly oriented toward helping others. Engineers aren't notably altruistic, and nobody faults them for it. What's wrong with doctors taking this approach? As the science improves and doctors become more like technicians and less like priests or shamans, the necessity for a doctor who is particularly compassionate diminishes. It's a nice thought, but when you really analyze it, there isn't a whole lot of room for fuzzy things like altruism and compassion to play a substantial role in today's medicine. Doctors apply science to help people get over illnesses. If they're nice people, that's great, but I don't see how it relates at all to their technical abilities to do their job and do it well.

Medicine is traditionally an altrustic profession and those that enter it are generally caring, compassionate, helpful people. engineers generally sit behind the scenes to do their work; doctors often have to interact with patients. compassion, helping and caring from the care-giver are fundamental to the well-being of the patient. If you don't want to help others, as i said earlier, go into research where it is more behind the scenes like engineers.

 

[vmc303]

maybe because compassion and caring for humanity are high on the lists of what many people look for in a doctor, not to mention helping others. i find it hard to be a clinical doctor without caring about people and wanting to help them. Without those criteria for entering the field i think you're missing a tremendous amount. To be really good at a profession you need to love it and to love those you serve. Otherwise, go into research where you don't have to deal with patients so much and they won't know that you don't really care to help them.

I think you're missing a subtle distinction. You can care a lot about making a person better or fixing their problems without actually caring about *them* as a person. If an excellent auto mechanic is given a tricky job to do on an old beat up Chevy, he might care greatly about fixing the problem and doing the job well, purely out of professionalism, but that doesn't mean he has to care about the car *itself*. It's not his car! Why should he? Caring about your job and doing that job well and caring about the 'object' of that job are different things.

 

[tigress]

I agree with the OP in many ways. I love the idea of helping people, and I support humanitarian causes, and I'd love to go work with Doctors Without Borders someday, but on the other hand the reason I'm actually going into medicine is because I love it intellectually. That's truly the main reason. Although I do have volunteer work, it's almost entirely not clinical.

Clinical experience is important for a student applying to med school because you really need to have an idea of what you're getting into. And volunteering is only one way to get clinical experience. So I have clinical experience and not clinical volunteering, and does that really matter? I don't think it will. Also my best friend got into all of her top choice schools with no volunteer experience, and they weren't top 20 schools either.

It's great the people want to do humanitarian work, but not everybody has to. And I agree that all doctors have to be compassionate. But a desire to help people doesn't need to be our main reason for choosing medicine. I actually see it as a really great benefit to a field that's awesome in other ways.

 

[tigress]

Medicine is traditionally an altrustic profession and those that enter it are generally caring, compassionate, helpful people. engineers generally sit behind the scenes to do their work; doctors often have to interact with patients. compassion, helping and caring from the care-giver are fundamental to the well-being of the patient. If you don't want to help others, as i said earlier, go into research where it is more behind the scenes like engineers.

I don't think the issue is not wanting to help others. I think it's just that this doesn't have to be the main ideal of all docs. The OP never said he doesn't want to help people, just that he likes medicine for more intellectual reasons.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I think you're missing a subtle distinction. You can care a lot about making a person better or fixing their problems without actually caring about *them* as a person. If an excellent auto mechanic is given a tricky job to do on an old beat up Chevy, he might care greatly about fixing the problem and doing the job well, purely out of professionalism, but that doesn't mean he has to care about the car *itself*. It's not his car! Why should he? Caring about your job and doing that job well and caring about the 'object' of that job are different things.

there's a huge distinction: a car doesn't have any feelings to care to be cared about or to react to the way you care for it; a patient does. Last I knew there was a doctor patient relationship. whereas I may love my car i doubt my automechanic has ever formed an emotional bond with it and my car didn't suffer when he didn't. When a person starts to compare a human being, especially one who is suffering and in need of care, with an inatimate object, i question his choice to enter the field of medicine.

 

[sunsweet]

I think as long as you have clinical experience, its ok if you don't have too much volunteering experience. e.g. you can get a job in a hospital or you can shadow a physician.

You can also find some volunteer work that is enjoyable to you - e.g. being a volunteer emt will give you clinical experience and I think you'll enjoy it (you'll learn alot in the class, and the work itself can be intellectually challenging too).

Or, like tigress mentioned, if there's something else non-clinical that you enjoy and can do some volunteering in, thats even better - because then you'll have clinical experience + some non-clinical related volunteering that will set you apart from other pre-meds.

 

[neuronerd]

I think you're missing a subtle distinction. You can care a lot about making a person better or fixing their problems without actually caring about *them* as a person. If an excellent auto mechanic is given a tricky job to do on an old beat up Chevy, he might care greatly about fixing the problem and doing the job well, purely out of professionalism, but that doesn't mean he has to care about the car *itself*. It's not his car! Why should he? Caring about your job and doing that job well and caring about the 'object' of that job are different things.

your points are valid, but becoming warm and cozy with patients is not what most volunteer experiences are about. I think that volunteering in the ER doesn't give you much of a chance to talk and get to know your fatal car accident victim or gunshot wound victim. I for one got a lot out volunteering because I worked in a free clinic and all of our patients were homeless or druggies. I saw most of them only once, but I learned how to deal with that "demographic." The point is that volunteering IS important for the profession . . .you have to get what you want out of it. I never say I loved bonding with the violent heroine addict in an interview, but I talk about what I learned from it. I think it's important.

 

[vmc303]

I don't think the issue is not wanting to help others. I think it's just that this doesn't have to be the main ideal of all docs. The OP never said he doesn't want to help people, just that he likes medicine for more intellectual reasons.

Right. I'm certainly not *opposed* to helping people, and the fact that my work as a doctor would directly help people adds a lot to its appeal. But it doesn't make or break the job for me; rather, the challenge and intellectual stimulus does. I find medicine and human biology fascinating, and the particular challenges of tackling complex illnesses makes practice more appealing to me than holing up in a lab somewhere and doing pure research. Will this affect my ability to be a good doctor -- the fact that I'm not primarily driven by compassion? Not for the specialties I'm interested in. I'd probably want a compassionate child psychiatrist to send my kid to, but if my kid needs emergency heart surgery, the altruism level of the surgeon really isn't the first thing I'm going to look to. I just fear that in screening so heavily for people with this trait -- a somewhat important but not vital one for being a good doctor -- medical schools are turning away a lot of very brilliant candidates who would make excellent doctors.

 

[Blake]

I'll get flamed a lot for this, but I really don't care. I had almost zero volunteering experience before med school. I don't think that will make a ''lesser'' doctor in 20 years. Most people I know who did volunteering did it only to increase their chances for med school. Once they're in med school, they stop doing any kind of volunteering. Here come the flames !

 

[vmc303]

I'll get flamed a lot for this, but I really don't care. I had almost zero volunteering experience before med school. I don't think that will make a ''lesser'' doctor in 20 years. Most people I know who did volunteering did it only to increase their chances for med school. Once they're in med school, they stop doing any kind of volunteering. Here come the flames !

Hah. You see the same thing with competitive college admissions, just on a lesser scale. Everyone knows you need to have ample volunteer experience to get into a good college, so they jump through all the necessary hoops and then abandon these projects once they get in. Certainly this is what I did. In the end, a lot of valuable time gets channeled toward things where the person's heart ultimately isn't in it. There's no point in taking the brilliant musician away from composing to go work at the needle exchange, or the Intel Science winner away from inventing the next supercomputer to go tend to the elderly. Society loses out when this happens, because a person's interests and abilities aren't utilized to their fullest. Not everyone's a budding Mother Theresa, and admissions committees shouldn't try to make them become one.

 

[Blake]

people in professions like medicine or law have a moral responsibility(according to the professions) to use some of their skills to help the underserved, even if it is just a small amount on rare occasions. That's why.

And I need to spend gazillion hours doing volunteering to know how to help people ? Come on, folks. That's like the basics, at least to me. If you can't help the underserved without requiring ''volunteering experience'', then there's definitely something wrong with you. It's funny that some of the folks with the most volunteering end up being total tools when working with patients... I'm speaking from experience here.

 

[vmc303]

It just occurred to me that perhaps one of the primary functions of requiring so much volunteer work might be to get people to do something they basically would rather not do. God knows how much of medical school and residency consists of being ordered around and having to endure loads unpleasant crap. So, to test your ability to put up with nearly a decade of doing stuff you'd really rather not do, medical schools require you to do a bit of this beforehand. It really doesn't matter that it's volunteering to help the needy; they could make you run ultramarathons or teach yourself archaic languages and it would serve the same basic purpose. But, they figure if they're going to put you to work, it might as well be in some socially useful capacity -- thus the de facto requirement for volunteering. They might be fully aware that 75% of their applicants wouldn't volunteer if they didn't have to, and they're completey fine with this. Yes, I like this explanation.

 

[QofQuimica]

It just occurred to me that perhaps one of the functions of requiring so much volunteer work might be to get people to do something they basically would rather not do. God knows how much of medical school and residency consists of being ordered around and having to endure loads unpleasant crap. So, to test your ability to put up with nearly a decade of doing stuff you'd really rather not do, medical schools require you to do a bit of this beforehand. It really doesn't matter that it's volunteering to help the needy; they could make you run ultramarathons or teach yourself archaic languages and it would serve the same basic purpose. But, they figure if they're going to put you to work, it might as well be in some socially useful capacity -- thus the de facto requirement for volunteering. They might be fully aware that 75% of their applicants wouldn't volunteer if they didn't have to, and they're completey fine with this. Yes, I like this explanation.

I do, too. I think that there is definitely something to it, when you look at the kind of typical candystriping that many pre-meds do. Who does that help? More the hospital than the patients! On a more basic level, there are rules for any "game" you care to play, including getting into medical school. You can rave and rant about them, you can dig in your heels and doggedly refuse to follow them, you can try to be every admission committee member's dream applicant by following every one of them to the letter, but what you can't do is change them. We all know what the rules are, and we are all free to decide whether we wish to play by them. If we decide not to do so, we have to suffer the consequences, which may mean not getting into medical school at all, or not getting into our favorite medical school.

There is one use for "required volunteering" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one ), and that is to force us self-absorbed pre-meds to think about someone other than ourselves, even if it's only once a week. (Whether we OUGHT to force people to behave altruistically (we can't force them to BE altruistic, but we CAN force them to act that way) is another question altogether. ) Caring about others and their problems does not come naturally to many people; we have to be taught that the world does not revolve around us and our ambition to be physicians. Some people learn this lesson the hard way when they go out into the world and find out that the world is not beating a path to their door. I think that many people who have been through rough patches in life learn to be more empathetic because of those experiences. The others will hopefully learn something from someone else's experiences, which volunteering in a hospital or clinic can help them do.

 

[Sainttpk]

MMMm I think volunteering, shadowing a physician, working in a healthcare setting is important if you want to become a physician. How else are you supposed to find out whether this is for you or not? I am not saying you need to be a saint to go into medicine, but medicine is so much more then just being "smart" that being said you need to have a basic competence to be a physician, but being a physician is so much more then being competent.

Comparing Docs with Mechnaics is apples and oranges. For one thing Mechanics are not dealing with people, they are working with machines. Doctors, are in a position that gives them alot of influence over other people. Many people open up emotionally to Docs in a way that they do not open up to other professionals.

Additionally physicians deal with family members, death, and all sorts of personalities. Don't you think it may be a little important to have some compassion for those you help? I actually know a girl with high MCATs and a 3.9 GPA but she did not get into even one medical school her first application cycle. I think the problem with alot of young people is that they never take the time out to find out whether they really truley want to follow a certain career path, its one of the reasons so many people are unhappy in their jobs, and yes there are many unhappy doctors out there. But maybe they should never have become physicians? Maybe they would be better off doing research or something else. Don't make the same mistake so many others make when choosing a career. Of course if you really love this then by all means do it!

T

 

[LizzyM]

Being a volunteer often gives a person the opportunity to interact with people that would otherwise not cross their path: homebound elderly, nursing home residents, mentally ill adults, drug addicts, homeless people, children with serious illnesses, people with disabilities, innercity school-age children, etc. Having a comfort level with people who are unlike yourself if important for someone in medicine.

Even physicians in the most technical of specialties have to interact with patients or families. Some of the most technical of specialists still have to deliver bad news. A physician who specialized in a type of diagnostic imaging once said something to me about the exam that was very inappropriate and demeaning. I could laugh it off and say that ultrasound was a good specialty for him but the truth is, he didn't belong at the bedside, even for only a few minutes.

If you are not a people person, find another way to use your gifts. Don't go into medicine.

 

[TwoLegacies]

your points are valid, but becoming warm and cozy with patients is not what most volunteer experiences are about. I think that volunteering in the ER doesn't give you much of a chance to talk and get to know your fatal car accident victim or gunshot wound victim. I for one got a lot out volunteering because I worked in a free clinic and all of our patients were homeless or druggies. I saw most of them only once, but I learned how to deal with that "demographic." The point is that volunteering IS important for the profession . . .you have to get what you want out of it. I never say I loved bonding with the violent heroine addict in an interview, but I talk about what I learned from it. I think it's important.

i think this is a really good point. volunteering can give you experiences you otherwise would not have had that give you a different perspective on other people, maybe the types of people you might see as patients. for example... when i was a mentor, i learned a lot more about the average disadvantaged 15-year-old and now know not to assume she knows anything about sexual health. (not to say that her lack of knowledge was necessarily because she was disadvantaged, but i'm sure it had a role).
another thing i think will be helpful about volunteer experience is the uncomfortable situations i've been in as a result. honestly, there's no other way i would have been around homeless people much, or battered women, or starving kids. i had a great home life, and college was like a safe little bubble excepting my community service. having been there prepares me for future situations like that.

anyway, if you've had those kind of experiences otherwise, or if you are already comfortable facing all walks of life, then i guess my point is moot.

 

[TwoLegacies]

Being a volunteer often gives a person the opportunity to interact with people that would otherwise not cross their path: homebound elderly, nursing home residents, mentally ill adults, drug addicts, homeless people, children with serious illnesses, people with disabilities, innercity school-age children, etc. Having a comfort level with people who are unlike yourself if important for someone in medicine.

Even physicians in the most technical of specialties have to interact with patients or families. Some of the most technical of specialists still have to deliver bad news. A physician who specialized in a type of diagnostic imaging once said something to me about the exam that was very inappropriate and demeaning. I could laugh it off and say that ultrasound was a good specialty for him but the truth is, he didn't belong at the bedside, even for only a few minutes.

If you are not a people person, find another way to use your gifts. Don't go into medicine.

yeah... i didn't read this before i posted. guess we agree

 

[vmc303]

If you are not a people person, find another way to use your gifts. Don't go into medicine.

Oh, please. This is a bit much. You don't have to have the personality of a PR spokesman or a social worker to go into medicine. I've known lots of doctors in my life, and many excellent doctors are basically introverted types who would rather be out fly fishing than doing anything else. They have perfectly fine interpersonal skills, but none of them would describe themselves as a "people person" and neither would anyone else. Don't exaggerate the requirements.

 

[Shredder]

I'm interested in becoming a doctor for a lot of different reasons, but frankly, helping people doesn't number too high among them. It's an intellectually challenging career, and I know I'd be good at it, and if people benefit from what I do, that's simply wonderful, but I don't have the burning passon to heal the sick and elevate the oppressed that seems to be a requirement for gaining entrance to med school these days.

I'm not not sure why the schools stress this aspect of medicine so much. Many of the best doctors, it seems, are technically proficient without being overly caring or solicitous toward their patients, and this works out just fine. You don't need to have a humanitarian personality to be a great surgeon or pathologist or radiologist. You just need to be good at what you do. So why do med schools want to see endless hours of volunteering at AIDS clinics or refugee camps as a demonstration of your committment to medicine?

It seems like only a small subset of specialties really need to have that caring, philanthropic personality, yet med schools place disproportianate weight on it when choosing whom to admit. If your neurosurgeon is damn good at what he does, why would you care about his committment to helping people? A lot of students, I'm led to believe, fake it: they volunteer places because they know that's what they have to do, not out of any altruistic committment to healing. Then, once they get into med school, they abandon these pursuits and nevertheless go on to become fine doctors.

Anyone have a good explanation for this? I get the feeling that it hasn't always been this way. Once upon a time, ambition and a powerful intellect were all that were really required. God knows not all doctors in their 40's and 50's today are wonderful people. More importantly, does anyone have any advice for someone who knows he isn't like this, yet is still interested in medicine? Can research experience substitute for volunteering in clinics and whatnot?

Good stuff I agree with everything. I don't know how the whole volunteering bit came about. I think the best doctors probably did not do a whole lot of volunteering at all. Life is just a little more valuable than putting smiles on people's faces; that's what clowns and Patch Adams are for. A doctor's calling is to save lives, not make people feel good, leave that for nurses. I think proficiency should be exalted far above passion to heal and all that. I'm of the opinion that research and shadowing, or basically anything is of more value than volunteering. Frankly, my time is worth something and I'm not willing to freely give it away for little benefit to either party. Medicine and premeds would be much better off if volunteering were not seen as such a prerequisite, and maybe even as a detriment. Working for free? That goes entirely against the capitalist way. I guarantee you paid workers would do a significantly better job.

 

[Will Ferrell]

vmc = real

 

[Ames980]

so im clearly a bit biased here as the strength of my application is my volunteer experience -- but come on now. how can you really believe that volunteering is a waste of your precious time? forcing you to interact with people beyond the 18-22 year old classmates? helping others? growing as a person? my time working for others has changed my outlook on life and has shown me how those of us who are in the place to should accept the responsibility of helping others....

i think it really comes down to what kind of physician you want to be. if youre into radiology, pathology, or just want to do research - then screw it, but if you want to actually roll up your sleeves then volunteering is key. personally, i feel like the general perception is that doctors are smart - how many people go to a drs appt looking for the class rank and usmle scores? its the attitude and the personality that make a patient trust their physician and volunteering within your community will do a hell of a lot more for the patient than your research. but again -- depends on what type of doctor you want to be...

 

[45408]

Most schools don't seem to put too much weight on volunteering, but they like to see some. I've given up pretty much all of the volunteering that I don't plan on continuing on my own. There are some things that I did before I ever considered my AMCAS, and I'll keep doing those.


Although volunteering can be a loose definition - I volunteer all my time as the prez of a student organization and all my time as the project manager of a neuroscience research lab - no credit, no money. So, I'm volunteering plenty - just not in the ER volunteer kinda way.

 

[Long Dong]

It's is just part of the application game that makes you different from those who didn't volunteer.

 

[vmc303]

Congratulations on enjoying volunteer work and being good at it. I'd never say volunteering is a waste of time for everyone. Clearly, it's not. People like you, who enjoy it, will go on to become a particular kind of doctor that the world needs and appreciates. I just don't believe that *all* doctors have to be cast in this mold, or even a sizeable percentage of them. The world only needs so many Doctors without Borders types. For the rest of us who are as compassionate as any decent human being is, but probably no more or less so, we'll also make good doctors -- just ones who are motivated by things other than a burning passion to help the downtrodden of the world. To each his own.

so im clearly a bit biased here as the strength of my application is my volunteer experience -- but come on now. how can you really believe that volunteering is a waste of your precious time? forcing you to interact with people beyond the 18-22 year old classmates? helping others? growing as a person? my time working for others has changed my outlook on life and has shown me how those of us who are in the place to should accept the responsibility of helping others....

i think it really comes down to what kind of physician you want to be. if youre into radiology, pathology, or just want to do research - then screw it, but if you want to actually roll up your sleeves then volunteering is key. personally, i feel like the general perception is that doctors are smart - how many people go to a drs appt looking for the class rank and usmle scores? its the attitude and the personality that make a patient trust their physician and volunteering within your community will do a hell of a lot more for the patient than your research. but again -- depends on what type of doctor you want to be...

 

[Avenue Q]

There is a glut of qualified applicants for medical school. If you have two students, both of whom could be technically proficient, but only one who would do well with patients, you go for them. that simple.

i'v been to doctors who didn't care about me and only about treating illness. if i had a choice between them and someone equally skilled but who was a great personable physician, its a no brainer.

the skills you can teach, the compassion you can't.

 

[tigress]

If you are not a people person, find another way to use your gifts. Don't go into medicine.

I have to disagree with this as well, although I suppose it depends on your definition of a "people person." There is room for people of all personalities within medicine. Even the stereotypical surgeon personality is only true sometimes; you'll find introverted and quiet surgeons just like you'll find outgoing and talkative radiologists or pathologists. Certain specialties do lend themselves to different personalities, however. Which actually backs up the point that all types of people make good doctors.

While the ability to interact with people normally is certainly important, anybody on the spectrum from shy to gregarious, introverted to extroverted, and any other of these personality qualities you can think of, can potentially be an excellent doctor.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I'll get flamed a lot for this, but I really don't care. I had almost zero volunteering experience before med school. I don't think that will make a ''lesser'' doctor in 20 years. Most people I know who did volunteering did it only to increase their chances for med school. Once they're in med school, they stop doing any kind of volunteering. Here come the flames !

that's not really true. Personally I have continued to volunteer with activities that have nothing to do with my med school application. I actually volunteer at many activities because i happen to enjoy it, and know a lot of people who feel the same way. i never did a single volunteer service to pad an application; I did them b/c i had a passion for it or I wanted to learn more about a service or how I reacted to that service or demographic population.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Being a volunteer often gives a person the opportunity to interact with people that would otherwise not cross their path: homebound elderly, nursing home residents, mentally ill adults, drug addicts, homeless people, children with serious illnesses, people with disabilities, innercity school-age children, etc. Having a comfort level with people who are unlike yourself if important for someone in medicine.

Even physicians in the most technical of specialties have to interact with patients or families. Some of the most technical of specialists still have to deliver bad news. A physician who specialized in a type of diagnostic imaging once said something to me about the exam that was very inappropriate and demeaning. I could laugh it off and say that ultrasound was a good specialty for him but the truth is, he didn't belong at the bedside, even for only a few minutes.

If you are not a people person, find another way to use your gifts. Don't go into medicine.

agreed, or go into research where you don't really deal with people directly

 

[QofQuimica]

agreed, or go into research where you don't really deal with people directly

No way. You cannot expect to use doing research as a shield because you like science but hope to avoid dealing with other people. The days of some eccentric but brilliant loner in his lab stumbling on to the next late great discovery are over. For one thing, modern research is done by teams, where you have to work with other scientists to do your projects, and for another, guess how you get money to fund your research? That's right, you have to convince some people, probably laymen like politicians or businessmen, to give it to you. So scientists with zero people skills will find that lack to be a major impediment to success. Incidentally, research involves plenty of volunteering as well, both by you undergrad student workers who do scut work for no pay, as well as by us grad students and post-docs who mentor and train you, also for no pay.

 

[masterMood]

actually you'd be suprised how many doctors stop caring about other people when they have debts of 200,000 dollars, and they enter the lowest income brackets for a couple of years. That, and the fact that many lower income and medicare patients will blatantly sue professionals in order to make a big buck (not that i'm saying all poor people are, but many can and do).

I do agree that schools in America put a huge emphasis on volunteering and all that b.s.

I don't think working scooping poop of some old guy's basin as a nurse's aid is what i call altruism.

Same thing goes with entering college. Schools put way too much emphasis on sports and extracurriculars. Well you know what? Most students do all this crap (excluding sports because they're fun), just to look good for colleges and get into good schools. You want hard evidence? Look at how when kids from 1-8th grade do nothing extracurricularly (once again except sports perhaps), but then suddenly in 9th grade they join a billion clubs, and become philanthropists dedicating their time to soup kitchens. I guess it is good to help people for free, because it has become mandatory in this country. The fine line between true altriusm and general selfishness and advancement has blurred. You can even see this in real life. Donate your stocks to a local charity? Instead of getting a tax deduction on what you paid on the shares, you get a tax deduction on the current value on the stock! Or the fact that companies empathetically donate millions of dollars to charities out of government necessity and not out of pure philanthropy. I also notice that America is the only country to require such "voluntary" activities when in fact it is required. I can honestly say that i wouldn't be where i am today without the various craptivities i did (debate club, hospital volunteering [cashier, information desk, come on not even real medical stuff!!]).

Bogus, bogus, bogus.

That said, the best thing i can advise is that you find activities that are as interesting as possible, do about 100 hours of community service (4 hours on a saturday 12 times in one year, and two hours another saturday for year 1, and do this again year 2, not that bad really, and you got 100 hours), get that done with, and get medically related jobs such as research (get published and get paid of course, lab work (once again paid), etc etc etc.)

I don't think any of the comments i made necessarilly dictates i am a bad and cruel person. I still care about people, but not to the point where i jeopardize my life for example. But obviously if someone is dying from a head injury for example, i would have enough morality and ethics to treat the person. Or to help an old woman cross a street.

Through islamic/christian/jewish/buddhist/hindu teachings we have a very caring and responsible ethics system in place. This system is already infused in society throughout the world, and is one reason why wars and conflicts don't occur. If an old lady needs help walking across a street example, I know i have the decency and virtues to help the lady, even if i didn't do any volunteer work.

That said, I believe that much like religion or sexual preference for example, volunteering should be mostly self-motivational. If you're someone like Mother Teresa for example and spent a while in Africa for example, then that would mean real dedication (unless you're a real diehard brown-noser, but I do suspect that the people who go abroad tend to be philanthropic in general)

~ Hermit MMood

P.S.

I Kick Ass!

 

[QofQuimica]

Through islamic/christian/jewish/buddhist/hindu teachings we have a very caring and responsible ethics system in place. This system is already infused in society throughout the world, and is one reason why wars and conflicts don't occur. If an old lady needs help walking across a street example, I know i have the decency and virtues to help the lady, even if i didn't do any volunteer work.

This post is meant to be sarcastic, right? Please tell me that you are joking.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

No way. You cannot expect to use doing research as a shield because you like science but hope to avoid dealing with other people. The days of some eccentric but brilliant loner in his lab stumbling on to the next late great discovery are over. For one thing, modern research is done by teams, where you have to work with other scientists to do your projects, and for another, guess how you get money to fund your research? That's right, you have to convince some people, probably laymen like politicians or businessmen, to give it to you. So scientists with zero people skills will find that lack to be a major impediment to success. Incidentally, research involves plenty of volunteering as well, both by you undergrad student workers who do scut work for no pay, as well as by us grad students and post-docs who mentor and train you, also for no pay.

of course you work in teams and can't avoid dealing with some people; but it keeps these people, who don't want to help others, away from patients who need caring and compassion.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

This post is meant to be sarcastic, right? Please tell me that you are joking.

 

[masterMood]

when i meant all those religions i wasn't referring that these different religions don't cause conflicts with each other.

i'm saying that the values and lessons taught in a religious hierarchy (respect your grandparents, parents, your elders, etc). These are all partially due to religion.

Religion molds us to be good citizens even if the ideas are different (unless you're a satan worshipper than that's just different).

 

[Bap2qwrq7]

I'm not sure why volunteering has become such a big thing in medical admissions but unfortunately it plays a big role for a majority of people. Unless you have stellar numbers, most of the time you will have to do some type of volunteer work.

In terms of clinical volunteering, that's important just because you get a taste of what it's like. But even then, I think it's bs. How much can you really know being some clueless undergrad following around a doc or filling patient's water containers. I had to jump through all sorts of hoops just to get my foot in the door to shadow a doc in a county hospital, and that was only because he pulled a few strings.

But most people volunteer to pad their resumes and try to stand out in the crowd of applicants. How many people volunteer and do something altruistic but don't list it. I'm sure there are a couple but they're in the minority and I'm sure that they'll all happen to be SDNers who start complaining about this post.

I mean, I'm a decent guy character wise, but if I'm given the choice to either help the homeless on a Saturday morning or sleep in and wake up at noon to eat a bowl of Fruit Loops, I can honestly say I would rather sleep in. I don't think I'm a bad person because of it and I don't think anyone else if they didn't want to do that.

maybe because compassion and caring for humanity are high on the lists of what many people look for in a doctor, not to mention helping others.i find it hard to be a clinical doctor without caring about people and wanting to help them. Without those criteria for entering the field i think you're missing a tremendous amount.

I find this statement to be kind of ambiguous. What is compassion to a patient? Is it the whole Patch Adams bs or what. Most docs I've seen act like normal people in that they talk to their patients professionally and explain problems and treatments as best as possible. That's usually it and none of the patients seem to mind. Most of the time, docs I've shadowed distance themselves from the patient and to deal with them more effectively. And I highly doubt that someone who doesn't volunteer is somehow a monster who can't relate or do a good job as a physician and somehow spending a couple of hours with poor people will make a person a better physician.

No one becomes a doctor because they hate people in general. It's just like any other job. We want to do it because it's exciting, it pays well, it has stabilty, and because even today people hold doctors on a pedestal compared to other professions.

But to the OP, volunteering is a part of the game if you are in the middle of the pack in terms of numbers.

 

[gerido]

I'm not sure why volunteering has become such a big thing in medical admissions but unfortunately it plays a big role for a majority of people. Unless you have stellar numbers, most of the time you will have to do some type of volunteer work.

In terms of clinical volunteering, that's important just because you get a taste of what it's like. But even then, I think it's bs. How much can you really know being some clueless undergrad following around a doc or filling patient's water containers. I had to jump through all sorts of hoops just to get my foot in the door to shadow a doc in a county hospital, and that was only because he pulled a few strings.

But most people volunteer to pad their resumes and try to stand out in the crowd of applicants. How many people volunteer and do something altruistic but don't list it. I'm sure there are a couple but they're in the minority and I'm sure that they'll all happen to be SDNers who start complaining about this post.

I mean, I'm a decent guy character wise, but if I'm given the choice to either help the homeless on a Saturday morning or sleep in and wake up at noon to eat a bowl of Fruit Loops, I can honestly say I would rather sleep in. I don't think I'm a bad person because of it and I don't think anyone else if they didn't want to do that.



I find this statement to be kind of ambiguous. What is compassion to a patient? Is it the whole Patch Adams bs or what. Most docs I've seen act like normal people in that they talk to their patients professionally and explain problems and treatments as best as possible. That's usually it and none of the patients seem to mind. Most of the time, docs I've shadowed distance themselves from the patient and to deal with them more effectively. And I highly doubt that someone who doesn't volunteer is somehow a monster who can't relate or do a good job as a physician and somehow spending a couple of hours with poor people will make a person a better physician.

No one becomes a doctor because they hate people in general. It's just like any other job. We want to do it because it's exciting, it pays well, it has stabilty, and because even today people hold doctors on a pedestal compared to other professions.

But to the OP, volunteering is a part of the game if you are in the middle of the pack in terms of numbers.

I work with a bunch of medical students who wake up early to volunteer. But you are probably right, I'm sure they have some grand scheme and some more people to fool. It is just hard to believe that they just want to do something good because they think its current state is poor. I wil agree, the volunteering thing is a game to a lot of premed people, because once they get the interviews, I notice they quit... but to many other people, it's what they want to do.

 

[Bap2qwrq7]

I work with a bunch of medical students who wake up early to volunteer. But you are probably right, I'm sure they have some grand scheme and some more people to fool. It is just hard to believe that they just want to do something good because they think its current state is poor. I wil agree, the volunteering thing is a game to a lot of premed people, because once they get the interviews, I notice they quit... but to many other people, it's what they want to do.

Like I said, these types of people are in the minority. Being the exception to the rule doesn't make it any less valid. No need for sarcasm. From what I have seen, most people would rather work and get paid then do things for free. And people generally do have ulterior motives when it comes to volunteering. And no one's really trying to fool anyone. And who care's if they are trying to fool people into thinking they're altruistic. If the person who volunteers because it's court ordered is doing as good as a job as the person from volunteering out of the goodness of their heart, why do their intentions really matter.

If someone asked me why I was volunteering I would tell them why. And trying to become compassionate isn't on the top of my list.

 

[gerido]

Like I said, these types of people are in the minority. Being the exception to the rule doesn't make it any less valid. No need for sarcasm. From what I have seen, most people would rather work and get paid then do things for free. And people generally do have ulterior motives when it comes to volunteering. And no one's really trying to fool anyone. And who care's if they are trying to fool people into thinking they're altruistic. If the person who volunteers because it's court ordered is doing as good as a job as the person from volunteering out of the goodness of their heart, why do their intentions really matter.

If someone asked me why I was volunteering I would tell them why. And trying to become compassionate isn't on the top of my list.

Your reason is not representative of everyone. My guess about why people is just as good as yours, and both are invalid because I don't have any statistics to prove my point and neither do you. Stop making a generalizaton base on your own experience. Perhaps you feel this way because your experience with volunteer has been meaningless to you... what did they make you do? file records down at the ER? answer the phone at the office? I wouldn't call court order volunteer as "volunteering" because these people are hardly volunteering to do anything. They have to or they pay fines/ass to jail.

 

[Bap2qwrq7]

Your reason is not representative of everyone. My guess about why people is just as good as yours, and both are invalid because I don't have any statistics to prove my point and neither do you. Stop making a generalizaton base on your own experience. Perhaps you feel this way because your experience with volunteer has been meaningless to you... what did they make you do? file records down at the ER? answer the phone at the office? I wouldn't call court order volunteer as "volunteering" because these people are hardly volunteering to do anything. They have to or they pay fines/ass to jail.

If you bothered to read my first post you'd see that I stated there are exceptions to the rule. Geez. I pretty much predicted someone would come and start posting about how I was dead wrong and how they knew a hundred people who volunteered out of the goodness of their hearts. Congratulations.

If you look at any student run volunteer organization a lot of the people who are in it jus happen to magically be pre-health or aiming for some sort of career in which volunteering makes them look better on paper. Oh wait, it's just a huge coincidence according to you.

The fact is, most people would rather get compensated for their work and usually, and here usually is the key word, volunteer to get something out of it in the long term.

 

[trinitrotoluene]

There seems to be distinct bias by some against those with little or no volunteer experence. The theory seems to be that those without said experences are somehow less compassionate or less able to interact with patients. Unfortunately, there are many people sitting on admissions committees (med, law, business, grad, ugrad--but particularly med and ugrad) that gloss over contrabutions made by people who don't change bed pans or build houses on the weekend. I would rather admit someone who works in the political arena to increase health coverage for indegent patients than delivers toys to bedridden children. However, I cannot tell you how much more r-e-s-p-e-c-t I got from adcoms for doing 100 hours of the latter over 1500 hours of the former.

Also, people who volunteer just to score points with adcoms should be rejected immediately. That is manipulative and unethical as all get out. Those people make me sick.

 

[MollyMalone]

There seems to be distinct bias by some against those with little or no volunteer experence. The theory seems to be that those without said experences are somehow less compassionate or less able to interact with patients. Unfortunately, there are many people sitting on admissions committees (med, law, business, grad, ugrad--but particularly med and ugrad) that gloss over contrabutions made by people who don't change bed pans or build houses on the weekend. I would rather admit someone who works in the political arena to increase health coverage for indegent patients than delivers toys to bedridden children. However, I cannot tell you how much more r-e-s-p-e-c-t I got from adcoms for doing 100 hours of the latter over 1500 hours of the former.

Word.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

There seems to be distinct bias by some against those with little or no volunteer experence. The theory seems to be that those without said experences are somehow less compassionate or less able to interact with patients. Unfortunately, there are many people sitting on admissions committees (med, law, business, grad, ugrad--but particularly med and ugrad) that gloss over contrabutions made by people who don't change bed pans or build houses on the weekend. I would rather admit someone who works in the political arena to increase health coverage for indegent patients than delivers toys to bedridden children. However, I cannot tell you how much more r-e-s-p-e-c-t I got from adcoms for doing 100 hours of the latter over 1500 hours of the former.

Also, people who volunteer just to score points with adcoms should be rejected immediately. That is manipulative and unethical as all get out. Those people make me sick.

but compassion is so very important..that is not to diminish the importance of working the political arena to increase health coverage for indegent patients. I think that example is an extreme and adcoms may not care so much of one working a political platform for a candidate but if you did really work to improve healthcare i'd be surprised if they frowned at it.