Why the Reserves during residency is a financial mistake (TMS/MIT, etc.)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

navyflightsrgn

New Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
9
Reaction score
4
I've been meaning to write this entry for quite some time but have been too busy with residency to sit down and spell out why the TMS Program (Training in Medical Specialty) formerly called the MIT Program (Medical In Training) works out to be a financial loss for anyone who joins. I will tell you that my experience is specific to the Navy, so those considering other branches should read their specific instructions very carefully before they sign on the dotted line. The bottom line for anyone though is that by incurring the 1:1 or 2:1 commitment the branches are now requiring for receiving money during residency, you are almost certainly better off waiting and joining the reserves when you are done with training. I'll explain why…

I am former HPSP, active duty for four years, currently serving out the remainder of my IRR commitment as a drilling reservist under the TMS program. I joined when it was truly a non-commitment program and, so long as you didn't take any bonuses, you could quit at any time. That has since changed and the Navy now requires a 1:1 or 2:1 payback after you are done with your residency depending on if you get drill pay (roughly $500/month) or the stipend (roughly $2000/month). With my program, I have been able to drill when I can and use my lectures during residency as my "drill time" to supplement my drills on the months I can't drill with my unit. Most people in the TMS program "drill" twice per year when they show up and run a PFT, and use their lectures during residency as their monthly drills. All in all, I average somewhere around $500/month after taxes. The money has come in handy during residency, I will admit. I also use my GI Bill to help augment the paltry civilian resident salary. Sounds great, right?

Even under the non-commitment program that I fall under, the program is still a financial mistake. Had I known then what I know now, I would have never signed up for this program. Keep in mind that my experiences with the Navy have been largely positive and I am one of the few on this site that would still do the HPSP scholarship all over again. The TMS program, however, is a disaster.

There are two incentive programs that are currently offered by the Navy that make the TMS program a financial mistake as it is currently written: one is the Critical Wartime Specialties Bonus Program (CWS) and the other is the Loan Repayment Program (LRP). All of the branches offer some version of these two programs and some of the branches let you use both of these programs during your career as a reservist (one after another). Recruiters don't want you to know about these programs because if you knew about them, no one would ever join the TMS program.

One assumption that my rationale depends on is that most of us are training in a specialty on the Critical Wartime Specialty list. Most specialties are on this list since the military can't keep doctors in any specialty. If you're not doing a residency in a CWS, then my logic may not apply. Each service has a slightly different list of CWS approved specialties (for example, flight surgery is considered a CWS in the Air Force, but not in the Navy). My logic also relies on the assumption that the following bonus programs will still exist in their current state when you are done with your residency (which may be a big assumption right now).

The Loan Repayment Program can be taken after completing 2 PGY years in a CWS approved specialty. Under this program, after completing your PGY-2 year, you are eligible for $20,000 per year up to a max of $50,000 for a 1:1 year commitment in the reserves. Payment to your loan is made at the end of the year after you have shown evidence of a "good year" in the reserves. So this is up to $50k tax free and paid directly to your loans for a 3 year commitment in the reserves after residency.

The CWS Bonus program entitles you to $25k per year for a 1:1 commitment for a max of 3 years. Thus, another $75k you are entitled to for another 3 year commitment. This money is taxable income.

The catch is that both of these programs - in the Navy - require you to not having been in the drilling reserves for the past 12 months. This varies from service to service, but the intention here is that they are accession bonuses, not retention bonuses. So by being in the TMS program during residency, I have now made myself ineligible to receive these incentives. This is something that my recruiter failed to explain to me when I was signing up for the TMS program. Unless I get out of the reserves for 12 months and then rejoin, I am unable to collect these bonuses. So the TMS program has made me ineligible for up to $125k in bonuses.

In any case, if you do the math for someone who is considering the current programs, it works out like this for the CWS program:

Option 1) Take drill pay only for a 1:1 commitment: For a 3 year residency you make approximately $6k after taxes, approximately $18k over the course of your residency. You now cannot take the CWS bonus of $75k until you have paid back 3 years in the reserves plus getting out for a year and rejoining. So you have pushed back the possibility of $25k per year until 4 years after you have completed your residency. You have traded $75k before taxes for roughly $18k after taxes, for the same amount of commitment.

Option 2)Take the Stipend pay for a 2:1 commitment: 3 year residency = $72k over 3 years with a commitment of 6 years of reserve time. Factor in the 12 months you have to be out of the reserves before you can rejoin in order to collect the CWS, assuming it even exists then, and you've now pushed off the $75k CWS bonus for 7 years after you finish residency in order to collect the money during residency. The reason this option makes little sense, however, is that you are incurring twice the commitment for the roughly same amount of money. And remember that once you owe the military time, you are automatically ineligible for any other bonuses that may arise until you have paid your time back.

Additionally, if you are in a branch that allows you to take the LRP program, pay your 3 years back, and then join the CWS program, you can add another $50k to the money you have made yourself ineligible for by being in the TMS program.

Also keep in mind that the "drill pay" you collect during residency is not as straight forward as it sounds. I have to keep meticulous records of when I drill and what lectures I am submitting for drill pay. It inevitably gets screwed up, paperwork gets lost, and I have to make phone calls, resubmit forms, etc. It isn't automatic and it isn't without its headaches. Keep in mind that no admin office knows what to do with a reservist who claims they don't have to drill but they still get to collect drill pay just because they are a doctor. To an enlisted admin person, this makes no sense and leads to an endless supply of headaches and explanations.

Sorry that this is so long, but the TMS program is complicated and no one ever explained this stuff to me. Unfortunately, I have had to learn things the hard way and I would hate for anyone to repeat my mistakes. I don't claim to be an expert, so if anyone has different information, please chime in.

Lastly, keep in mind that for those thinking of entering a private practice after residency, your reserve commitment will likely not be looked upon favorably if the partners know you may have to leave the practice for up to a year at a moment's notice. They probably won't tell you this during the interview, but no one wants an employee that may take off at a moment's notice, leaving a void for the other group members to fill. Just something to think about. And when you sign on that line with the military, you will make this a very real issue for yourself once you are done with residency.

In any case, my advice: Stay away from the TMS/Stipend/MIT programs and join the reserves once you are done with your residency. If you still want to serve your country then, you will likely be able to collect more money for less commitment. Tough it out during residency. Use your GI Bill if you have it, take out loans, etc. Stay away from this program. It may look good in the short term, but it is a disaster on many levels over the long haul. I strongly believe the Navy should do away with this mess of a program.

Hope this helps.

NavyFlightSrgn
 
Last edited:
Since the thread is talking about the Reserves as a whole and not just Navy, I thought I'd chime in re: the Army side.

I'm not sure why it is, but the Navy has always been kind of stingy with benefits compared to the Army. I guess it's because recruiting brochures showing F-18's, submarines, and ports of call hook more docs than the ones of guys crawling through mud in Arkansas.
The Loan Repayment Program can be taken after completing 2 PGY years in a CWS approved specialty. Under this program, after completing your PGY-2 year, you are eligible for $20,000 per year up to a max of $50,000 for a 1:1 year commitment in the reserves. Payment to your loan is made at the end of the year after you have shown evidence of a “good year” in the reserves. So this is up to $50k tax free and paid directly to your loans for a 3 year commitment in the reserves after residency.
This program is available in the Army Reserve and National Guard, but the loan repayment amount is $40K/year for up to a total of $250K. You do not need to take this while in residency. You can take it after you are board certified as well.

The Navy CWS Bonus program is available for Army Reserve and National Guard as well for $25K/year, though it's renewable past the three years.
The catch is that both of these programs - in the Navy - require you to not having been in the drilling reserves for the past 12 months. This varies from service to service, but the intention here is that they are accession bonuses, not retention bonuses.
Not true for Army. They are very much retention bonuses. You can sign up in residency with STRAP (Like the $2K/month TMS), then take HPLRP for loan repayment for six years for $240K, then take the Special pay for $25K after that. The Army has no accession only benefits for docs that I know of that are currently still operating, though that could obviously change.
Lastly, keep in mind that for those thinking of entering a private practice after residency, your reserve commitment will likely not be looked upon favorably if the partners know you may have to leave the practice for up to a year at a moment’s notice. They probably won’t tell you this during the interview, but no one wants an employee that may take off at a moment’s notice, leaving a void for the other group members to fill. Just something to think about. And when you sign on that line with the military, you will make this a very real issue for yourself once you are done with residency.
This is the big, BIG drawback to Reserve service in any branch. By signing up, look at what the commitment will be, and make sure you are comfortable with the notion of working only for very large practices during the time you are serving. Joining a small person or solo practice is just not practical. If you're cool with that, great. If not, do not sign.
 
Navy now requires a 1:1 or 2:1 payback after you are done with your residency


How do you know this? I've heard this rumor on this message board repeatedly, but the Navy TMS policy dated June 29, 2011 says nothing about the 1:1 payback for basic drill pay change, nor do any of the forms I have signed. The 2:1 payback for the stipend program is clearly deliniated. Can you produce any documentation?
 
Last edited:
First, awesome post thanks so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to do something like that.

I am going to board for this program. I haven't signed. These things you mention cross my mind all the time as I really wax and wane. My thoughts...

It is "1:1" payback if you do a 3 year residency and sign up. This will be in the paperwork signed by anyone coming through now. However, the payback is 3 years no matter the duration of your residency. In other words a 3 year FP residency will get stipend for the 3 years and serve 3 years active reserve. The general surgeon for 5 years and serve 3 years after residency. The neurosurgeon for 7 years etc.... The longer your residency the more benefit you get.

Also since you are now signing for a 3 year commitment you are eligible for a $10,000 sign bonus.

The huge pro to this program is that you are non-deployable/non-mobilize during residency and 2 years after residency. They intentionally did this so you could go to fellowship or establish at least a foot in a practice. This means if you are surgical specialty person you can benefit for 7+ years and have only one year where you are vulnerable to deployment.

Economically it's a gamble. MOST specialities will lose money with deployment. In other words, the 25k bonus for signing a contract that puts you at risk for possibly 2 deployments during 3 years would be a HUGE loss. An ortho surgeon would make 200K less a year during a deployment. This assumes deployment. This assumes that civ salary stay up. etc....

If you want retirement you are pretty deep in while doing residency if you keep up good years.

My main concern is the threat of them changing the program during residency putting you at risk for having to actively drill (not possible in my program for jr residents)/eligible for deployment. In that case it's not worth joining now.

My other concern is the headache of mandatory computer training, sensitivity training etc..., admin crap described by flightsurgn, that I don't necessarily need to deal with now.

Again not right or wrong just my logic and really my thinking outloud. My specialty is currently not on critical lists (shocking actually). It had to be waivered into TMS.

I want to serve b/c I want to serve I just want to do it in the most intelligent way possible. I'd feel like I was part of something and at least doing a very very very small part now.
 
Agree completely with the above post that the Navy is stingy with their benefits. I too think it has something to do with the cool looking recruitment brochures, better locations, etc. I find it very interesting that the Army pays up to $250k in loan repayment and that you can sign up for the $25k past 3 years.

Another major difference between the Navy and all of the other reserve branches (to my knowledge) is the length of deployment/mobilization. It is my understanding that involuntary mobilizations in the other reserve branches are a maximum of 120 days. Some of the branches will even tell you that you get to pick the deployment length: 30, 60, 90, or 120 days. The Navy deploys its reserve docs for full length active duty deployments. In other words, expect a 9 month deployment with the Marines. And if you are lucky enough to fill an Army billet as a Navy reserve physician, plan on going for 12 months. Since Army medicine is stretched so thin, the Navy has accepted the mission of filling Army slots. I have many active duty friends that have deployed with Army units even though they wear a Navy uniform stateside.

The Navy recruiters will tell you that they “split deployments” for reserve docs, that you “probably won’t have to go for the full 9/12 months,” etc. but beware. If it’s not in writing, don’t believe a word of it. Also, I’ve heard stories of the Navy strategically choosing the length of deployments to keep costs down. For example, if you are entitled to certain active duty bonuses as a reservist after being deployed for 180 days, the Navy will conveniently write your orders for 179 days boots on ground. This means that you get over there and work side by side with active duty docs who are making more than you are due to their bonus structure (ASP, VSP, etc.). I don’t claim to know all of the details on this, but buyer beware.

Finally, keep in mind the huge pay cut that most of us will take by being mobilized for 9-12 months. I know more than one reservist physician who had to tap into their retirement fund in order to pay their mortgage during their 9 months in the sand. All of the sudden that $25k per year or extra $2k/month during residency doesn’t look so hot anymore, does it?

And, in the end, despite knowing most of these things up front, I was willing to take these risks in order to continue my service to my country. Not only that, I was willing to stay loyal to the Navy despite knowing the obvious advantages of the other branches. For most of us, it’s not about the money. It’s about service. It’s about putting on the uniform. It’s about contributing to something larger than ourselves or our wallets.

I did a lot of research before signing up for the TMS program. With the exception of the $25k/year and the LRP issues, I knew about all of it. I think everyone has their break point. For me, it came much later. Like I said, I don’t have any regrets about HPSP. I don’t have an axe to grind, I just want others to know exactly what they are signing up for. If you still choose to sign, then at least when you deal with these issues, they will be easier to accept. It’s when they are huge surprises that people get upset and bitter.

The bottom line is that the other services have it right. The Navy writes ridiculous exclusions into their bonus structures, they deploy their docs for excessive amounts of time, and they have created a system that makes military service and civilian practice mutually exclusive. Until they address these issues, I’m afraid that they will continue to lose physicians to the other branches.

Take everything with a grain of salt, but be very careful with this program. It is not what it seems when you sign the contract.

NFS
 
.TrailDoc, .
.I'm reading COMNAVRESFORINST 1001.5F, pages 2-6 to 2-10, section 210, dated 27MAY2010. I will quote the part that makes me think the 1:1 option still exists. This instruction is pulled from the NAVPERS website if you have access. If you google it, you will only be able to find the 1001.5E version which is the old version that had the "non-commitment" option which I signed under. The E version is a completely different instruction and won't be of any use to you..
.
.
.2. Approval by BUMED of a TMS drill option will.
.follow any initial service obligation..
.(c) Obligate an additional year of active drilling.
.for each year of flexible drilling in the TMS program..
.Acknowledgement of this requirement shall be made by signing a.
.NAVPERS 1070/613..
.Later it goes on to say:.
.(4) Those members training for a critical specialty and.
.receiving a stipend which was offered at the time of recruitment.
.will incur a two for one drilling Reserve obligation upon.
.completion of training, per the Navy's stipend contract. This is.
.separate from the TMS option..
.
.
.To me it sounds like 2 different options. Take a look at it and see what you think. I know when I signed up under the 1001.5E instruction we had the option of either drill with no commitment or take the stipend and incur a 2:1 commitment..
.
.
.Can you tell me what you are reading when you refer to the "Navy TMS policy dated 29JUN11?" I believe you, I just haven't seen that one. Is it a NAVADMIN? I would like to look it up and have a copy of it..
.
.
.Thanks,.
.
.
.NFS.
 
Last edited:
.Handsome,.
.You bring up some good points. I had heard that the total commitment was only 3 years under the 1:1 option, no matter how many years you took the option. I can’t find it in skimming through the COMNAVRESFORINST 1001.5F, but at one point I had read something similar, I just can’t remember where. I think it’s in some NAVADMIN later on. If you have it, please let me know where so I can take a look at it..
.
.
.But the single most important thing you brought up is the $10k new officer accession bonus. If you take the $10k accession bonus, you are ineligible for the $25k/year bonus later on. Unless they have changed this recently, be very careful. Taking that bonus will disqualify you from larger bonuses later on. DO NOT TAKE THIS BONUS. I would advise you to read the instruction I referred to very carefully before you sign. If you don’t have a copy, demand that your recruiter produce a copy of it before you sign. Go over it word by word..
.
.
.Also, I have never heard of this non-deployable 2 years after residency rule. I knew that you were non-deployable during residency – that is in writing in the COMNAVRES instruction. I do know, however, that anyone who signs up for the reserves within 6 months of going off active duty is protected from involuntary mobilization for 2 full years. This applies to everyone in the Navy reserves, not just docs. I just want to make sure your recruiter is not misleading you on this. I do not think that 2 year period can be tacked on to be used at the end of residency. I think that clock starts the day you enter the reserves, and since the TMS option protects you anyway, it’s just a belt and suspenders policy for you in this case. However, if I’m wrong, and you have this in writing, please let me know where it is as I would like a copy for my records.
.
.
.I don’t think they will force you to drill more than twice per year to run the PRT. As far as serving in the most intelligent way possible goes… well, I think you know my answer to that: sign up when you’re done with residency. Certainly don’t do it for the retirement benefits. Those are being changed as we speak..
.
.
.And for those reading this in other branches, the lesson here is to demand that your recruiter produce your branch specific instruction before you sign. Some branches will tell you that they don’t give them out, yada, yada… Refuse to sign before you go through it with a fine toothed comb. I didn’t do this and it has come to bite me. We would never sign a private practice or hospital contract without reading it ahead of time (and usually involving a lawyer). Don’t let this be any different. Don’t trust them because they are the military. And keep in mind that you can’t just quit this job if the contract isn’t what you expected. They own you for many years down the road. Be very careful. Also, no matter how nice your recruiter is, they are never physicians. They have no idea what our training path looks like, how much we have sacrificed to get here, and what our earning potential is on the outside. No matter how nice they are, they just want your signature..
.
.
.NFS.
 
Another major difference between the Navy and all of the other reserve branches (to my knowledge) is the length of deployment/mobilization. It is my understanding that involuntary mobilizations in the other reserve branches are a maximum of 120 days.
Last I heard, the 90 day boots-on-ground policy was an Army Reserve/National Guard thing. I don't think the Air Force has that in policy, unless it's a recent change.
 
.TrailDoc, .
.I’m reading COMNAVRESFORINST 1001.5F, pages 2-6 to 2-10, section 210, dated 27MAY2010. I will quote the part that makes me think the 1:1 option still exists. This instruction is pulled from the NAVPERS website if you have access. If you google it, you will only be able to find the 1001.5E version which is the old version that had the “non-commitment” option which I signed under. The E version is a completely different instruction and won’t be of any use to you..


.2. Approval by BUMED of a TMS drill option will.
.follow any initial service obligation..
.(c) Obligate an additional year of active drilling.
.for each year of flexible drilling in the TMS program..
.Acknowledgement of this requirement shall be made by signing a.
.NAVPERS 1070/613..
.Later it goes on to say:.
.(4) Those members training for a critical specialty and.
.receiving a stipend which was offered at the time of recruitment.
.will incur a two for one drilling Reserve obligation upon.
.completion of training, per the Navy’s stipend contract. This is.
.separate from the TMS option..


.To me it sounds like 2 different options. Take a look at it and see what you think. I know when I signed up under the 1001.5E instruction we had the option of either drill with no commitment or take the stipend and incur a 2:1 commitment..


.Can you tell me what you are reading when you refer to the “Navy TMS policy dated 29JUN11?” I believe you, I just haven’t seen that one. Is it a NAVADMIN? I would like to look it up and have a copy of it..


.Thanks,.


.NFS.


Thanks for the ink. My big worry was that they changed the rules for us in the middle of the game, but the conventional wisdom is this applies to newcommers. However, I don't see that written anywhere, and your reference says that you agree to this 1:1 deal by signing the page 13. (the one I signed said nothing about future obligation.) For some reason I can't get onto the BOL website to check your reference.
What they disseminated to us is a serialzied letter from the Chief of BUMED, not a published instruction. PM me with your email address, and I'll send it to you. Unless you know a way to post it here on SDN for all to see.
 
Instruction: RESPERS M-1001.5 dateed 5 JUN 12 (replaced comnavresforinst 1001.5f)

section: 1570-020

page 9 of 13:
(c) Those training for subspecialties listed on the
DoD CSS as promulgated by ASDHA, are exempt from mobilization
until the completion of their training program. All other
personnel must apply for exemption in the event of a
mobilization.

page 10 of 13:
(j) All non-stipend TMS participants incur a three
year service commitment (members become a mobilization asset in
the final year of this three year commitment) following
completion of training. Acknowledgement of this requirement
shall be made by signing a NAVPERS 1070/613.

In case anyone is currently considering TMS these paragraphs clearly state the required commitment and mobilization exemptions.
 
Does this affect anything related to the NG and HPLRP? I've decided to sign up for the NG guard without taking tne MDSSP stipend, and none of this seems related, but just trying to cover all of my bases here.
 
Does this affect anything related to the NG and HPLRP? I've decided to sign up for the NG guard without taking tne MDSSP stipend, and none of this seems related, but just trying to cover all of my bases here.
This is Navy.
 
"There are two incentive programs that are currently offered by the Navy that make the TMS program a financial mistake as it is currently written: one is the Critical Wartime Specialties Bonus Program (CWS) and the other is the Loan Repayment Program (LRP). All of the branches offer some version of these two programs and some of the branches let you use both of these programs during your career as a reservist (one after another). Recruiters don't want you to know about these programs because if you knew about them, no one would ever join the TMS program."

This statement implies that one cannot receive stipend or LRP during TMS, which is simply untrue. In fact, it is one of the reasons doing TMS in the first place is a viable option for residents. If you were not able to receive stipend/LRP, then I agree it's only worth it if you simply want to serve your country.
 
Top