'Why Thousands of Doctors in America Can't Get a Job?'

[Captain_Falcon]

Why are the articles popping up everywhere?

Medical school graduate sees nearly all of his $440,000 in student loans discharged

A medical graduate who had about $440,000 in student debt saw 98% of his loans cancelled by a bankruptcy court in California, according to a recent filing.

finance.yahoo.com

"Koeut did well in school and earned a bachelor’s in marine biology and Spanish from Duke University in 2002 before moving to Bangkok to study clinical tropical medicine.

He did not earn a formal degree and began working part-time jobs in retail before attending the for-profit Ponce School of Medicine in Puerto Rico, finishing in 2010 and passing all the medical board exams. However, over the next five years, Koeut was unable to secure a residency placement."

Something doesn't add up here at all

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[Splenda88]

"Koeut did well in school and earned a bachelor’s in marine biology and Spanish from Duke University in 2002 before moving to Bangkok to study clinical tropical medicine.

He did not earn a formal degree and began working part-time jobs in retail before attending the for-profit Ponce School of Medicine in Puerto Rico, finishing in 2010 and passing all the medical board exams. However, over the next five years, Koeut was unable to secure a residency placement."

Something doesn't add up here at all

I agree... The writer of the piece is not telling the whole story.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I recommend reading the court summary.

My favorite lines:

"The mysterious workings of the algorithm that matches students with residency positions, rather than fault attributable to Koeut, caused this problem"

and

"Koeut's undisputed understanding is that this system matches 99.9% of applicants with a residency program"

I actually agree with discharging his loan -- he is 10+ years out from graduating, is never getting a residency spot, and will never pay this back. There's no point to continuing. But the court really failed to understand that the reason he was unable to get a position had something to do with him, not a failure of the match.

 

[thepoopologist]

Threads like this make me grateful for what I have.

 

[Maimonides1]

Beside few anomalies here and there.., don’t you think this is a real problem with hundreds of failing docs burdened by piling debt.. considering US Medical school attrition rate of 3-5% and the imperfect match rates..?!

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Beside few anomalies here and there.., don’t you think this is a real problem with hundreds of failing docs burdened by piling debt.. considering US Medical school attrition rate of 3-5% and the imperfect match rates..?!

Attrition rate occurs for many reasons and normally earlier on in the process of med ed if I recall. Match rate can be self imposed non competitive student that wants a specific area or types of programs, so self inflicted

 

[Goro]

Beside few anomalies here and there.., don’t you think this is a real problem with hundreds of failing docs burdened by piling debt.. considering US Medical school attrition rate of 3-5% and the imperfect match rates..?!

Gonna play Devil's Advocate here: why should the shareholders of banks or the US taxpayer bail out every person who fails at their education or their life goals?

No whataboutisms about Lehman Bros., or GMC, either.

 

[Maimonides1]

Gonna play Devil's Advocate here: why should the shareholders of banks or the US taxpayer bail out every person who fails at their education or their life goals?

No whataboutisms about Lehman Bros., or GMC, either.

I totally disagree with the bailout philosophy..and the transfer of burden to society, but wandering how many are out there going to run to bankruptcy courts or NYT for sleazy reporting..?

 

[Goro]

I totally disagree with the bailout philosophy..and the transfer of burden to society, but wandering how many are out there going to run to bankruptcy courts or NYT for salacious reporting..?

My understanding is that school debt isn't forgivable? Like credit card debt?

 

[sloop]

My understanding is that school debt isn't forgivable? Like credit card debt?

It’s not strictly true that it is not forgivable, but it has historically been very difficult. Often courts apply the Brunner Test, which requires that you show that the debt will cause undue hardship, that your financial circumstances are unlikely the change for the duration of the repayment term and that you’ve made a good faith effort to pay down the debt.

In fact, there was a recent precedential decision in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York where an attorney had his $221,385.49 student loan balance discharged in Chapter 7 Bankruptcy.

The order granting summary judgment in that case can be found here:

http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/284416_64_opinion.pdf

 

[iqe2010]

This is probably a less controversial claim on SDN than other parts of the internet and in real life, but if a black American citizen can't get into a US DO school and has to resort to the Caribbean, their undergraduate performance was so bad that they would barely be eligible for an online NP degree. Back in 2013-2016, 56% of black/Africian American students got into MD medical schools with GPA 3.2-3.4 and the equivalent of a 498-501. Back when the students in the article were applying to med school, average stats were even lower and DO's schools were even easier to get into. It isn't unrealistic to say they could have gotten into a low ranked DO school with a 2.8 and 495.

I know non-URMs who have gotten accepted with stats similar to this. They are older and medicine was their second career choice, but still.

There's really no reason to go to the Caribbean and drop 400k.

 

[LimpSpatula]

People are railing on Caribbean schools but the truth is medical education is a rat race that’s essentially one huge pyramid scheme and premeds, med students, residents, and soon to be attendings are all getting scammed. If you don’t think the increasing residency slots, NPs and cultural war against science in our increasingly capitalistic culture won’t lower salaries, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Check out the EM forum. That’s going to happen to all of us.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Hello. I am afraid of fires and I don't like breathing in smoke or going into collapsing buildings yet I want to become a firefighter. Could you help me?

We currently have a position open for telefirefighters. Maybe this is something that you are qualified for?

 

[Dr. Trafalgar Law]

Maybe I’m out of the loop, but why should doing medical school in a foreign country guarantee you the ability to be licensed to practice medicine in the USA? Does any other country do this? Didn’t think so....

 

[The Last Ankibender]

"Koeut did well in school and earned a bachelor’s in marine biology and Spanish from Duke University in 2002 before moving to Bangkok to study clinical tropical medicine.

He did not earn a formal degree and began working part-time jobs in retail before attending the for-profit Ponce School of Medicine in Puerto Rico, finishing in 2010 and passing all the medical board exams. However, over the next five years, Koeut was unable to secure a residency placement."

Something doesn't add up here at all

Exactly he went to a US MD school. PONCE SOM now PHSU Is lcme accredited. So he has to have major red flags to have not match

 

[Dr. Trafalgar Law]

Unfortunately, some individuals believe they're entitled to practice medicine in the US. They think that passing the USMLEs should guarantee them a residency. Any robot who practices with NBMEs for two years can pass the steps. Many of them are outstanding individuals but they need to realize that they are in a large pool with substandard individuals and residencies don't know who's what.

US medical schools screen for empathetic and well-rounded individuals. Do they do a perfect job? No. At a minimum, most US students have some shadowing, volunteering, and other ECs that can at least paint a good picture of what that person is like. You can just skate through college with a 2.5 and no MCAT and get into many Caribbean schools.

Yeah and I agree with you, but like on a fundamental basis, it doesn't even matter how outstanding of a student you were in a foreign medical school, it doesn't and shouldn't guarantee you the right to practice medicine in the USA (or any other country). Yeah sure it can give you a good shot at being able to practice here, but you aren't 100% owed that by virtue of graduating med school in another country, but it seems that this is the ideology that is being pushed in this article.

I really hate using the term "woke" like this, but with the way many things have been going, all it will take is for this to grab the attention of the biggest voices in the woke crowd and suddenly this would actually gain a lot of legislative traction...

 

[peyerpatch]

Exactly he went to a US MD school. PONCE SOM now PHSU Is lcme accredited. So he has to have major red flags to have not match

Also in 2010 Ponce was a not-for-profit.

 

[Mass Effect]

Gonna play Devil's Advocate here: why should the shareholders of banks or the US taxpayer bail out every person who fails at their education or their life goals?

No whataboutisms about Lehman Bros., or GMC, either.

The problem here is the schools and the feds that allow the schools to do this. Student loan access needs to be completely reformed ASAP. Schools should not be allowed to charge as much as they do. For-profit should not even be a phrase uttered at any school where students can take out federal loans. Schools need to be forced to lower their tuition prices or students can't attend and the way to do that is for the feds to put restrictions on how much students can take out for med school. Somewhere along the way higher education loans became everyone's get-rich-quick scheme on the backs of students, many of whom will struggle for decades to pay it back.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

The problem here is the schools and the feds that allow the schools to do this. Student loan access needs to be completely reformed ASAP. Schools should not be allowed to charge as much as they do. For-profit should not even be a phrase uttered at any school where students can take out federal loans. Schools need to be forced to lower their tuition prices or students can't attend and the way to do that is for the feds to put restrictions on how much students can take out for med school. Somewhere along the way higher education loans became everyone's get-rich-quick scheme on the backs of students, many of whom will struggle for decades to pay it back.

Yuuuuuup. This is why imo loan forgiveness is worthless. Like sure, it'd be nice for me. But it won't help anyone in the future. Debt forgiveness is not where the attention should be focused (or at least, it should be debt forgiveness in combo with student loan reform for the future).

 

[Chibucks15]

Yuuuuuup. This is why imo loan forgiveness is worthless. Like sure, it'd be nice for me. But it won't help anyone in the future. Debt forgiveness is not where the attention should be focused (or at least, it should be debt forgiveness in combo with student loan reform for the future).

Put loan interest at 0% and reform the stupid federally backed loan system. Lenders get their money and it actually allows people to pay it back. Regardless, a bubble bigger than the housing crisis is coming and it’s gonna pop hard. At least being doctors we’ll be insulated from the fallout to a degree

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Put loan interest at 0% and reform the stupid federally backed loan system. Lenders get their money and it actually allows people to pay it back. Regardless, a bubble bigger than the housing crisis is coming and it’s gonna pop hard. At least being doctors we’ll be insulated from the fallout to a degree

I'd even be okay with 2-3%. I have loans that are nearly 8%. It's completely ridiculous and predatory.

 

[Chibucks15]

I'd even be okay with 2-3%. I have loans that are nearly 8%. It's completely ridiculous and predatory.

I’m debating how aggressively to pay it back because of the impending situation. Those 8% ones back from college are insane