Wikileaks gets Pfizer

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Two words: Judith Miller.

Interesting discussion 🙂 Question: if the nature of these leaks is "no more than schoolyard gossip," how is American national security threatened?

And the whole legality thing: how does American law apply to a non-American not living in the US?

Most of what he leaked is gossip and nothing more. When he leaked the infrastructure review, he crossed the line. Also, he posted the entire documents raw. When the NYT published the Pentagon Papers, they posted excerpts and explained what they were reporting about. Assange is NOT a journalist. The difference is Elsberg expected and was willing to go to jail because he knew what he was doing was illegal and was willing to pay the price. I don't think Prince Julian is willing to go to jail to expose wrong doing, he wants a parade.

I don't now enough about international law to know if he can be prosecuted in the USA. I know what he did was self serving and he is a scumbag.
 
People on both sides seem to be coming to the conclusion that Assange is a d-bag; that's what lead to the "rape" charges in the 1st place. When I read the accounts of the women pressing the charges, sounds like what Assange is guilty of is being a bad date.

That said, it also seems that the US gov't promotes "free speech" when it suits them, and when it doesn't, it's treason.

Free speech was never meant to be unlimited. There are limits. That's why Elsberg was prosecuted and the NYT and other papers were not. It's only the incompetence of the Nixon justice department that kept Elsberg out of jail.
 
I find your ideas intriguing, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

As soon as I blog, you will be the first to know. What's amazing is that people have no clue about the US Constitution. Like this has anything to do with free speech. This has to do with freedom of the press if they could convince the courts that Wiki Leaks is a journalistic site. In fact Wiki Turds changed the description on their web site and add journalist or references to journalism over 20 times.
 
As soon as I blog, you will be the first to know. What's amazing is that people have no clue about the US Constitution. Like this has anything to do with free speech. This has to do with freedom of the press if they could convince the courts that Wiki Leaks is a journalistic site. In fact Wiki Turds changed the description on their web site and add journalist or references to journalism over 20 times.

Since we're bringing up the Constitution:

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the TSA searches WRT the 4th Amendment, Old Timer?
 
Since we're bringing up the Constitution:

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the TSA searches WRT the 4th Amendment, Old Timer?

You don't have a right to fly on an airplane. If that is what it takes to make sure an underwear bomber DOES NOT get on a plane, I could live with it. If however, the government was using the scanner to determine if I was bringing crack cocaine on the plane, I would consider it an unreasonable search and seizure, absent probable cause.
 
You don't have a right to fly on an airplane. If that is what it takes to make sure an underwear bomber DOES NOT get on a plane, I could live with it. If however, the government was using the scanner to determine if I was bringing crack cocaine on the plane, I would consider it an unreasonable search and seizure, absent probable cause.

Here are my thoughts on why this overly intrusive security is wasteful and really just a placebo anyway. This is from the SP forum:

As far as the argument that this is necessary to prevent... whatever we're trying to prevent:

‎"There has never been an explosive found on a flight from one U.S. city to another." -- TSA Administrator John Pistole.

So why the INTENSE focus on domestic screening? Why do we make women pop out prosthetic breasts and pat down little children? Why do amputees have their fake legs taken away (even though that is EXPRESSLY against TSA policy)? What's the logic? We know that grandmother in a wheelchair is probably not a threat. We KNOW that cute baby probably doesn't have an IED in his diaper. Yet, we persist in aggressive screening that wastes time and money. Anyone who thinks that taking away my slightly-too-large tube of toothpaste is keeping us safe is just drinking the Kool Aid. Bottom line.

The underwear bomber originated in the Netherlands, so what we're doing now would NOT have prevented that anyway. I think these draconian measures give us a false sense of security and divert attention and resources that could be allocated to addressing real threats to our safety. I am supportive of REASONABLE measures to keep our skies safe, but I think that taking nude pictures of passengers and full body groping is going too far and is so intrusive that it's frankly un-American.
 
Here are my thoughts on why this overly intrusive security is wasteful and really just a placebo anyway. This is from the SP forum:

You may be right. I do know that the Israeli's profile for a reason. It is antithetical to the American way of thinking. I don't know if profiling is constitutional. I would prefer we try it and let someone sue. The TSA screeners may not be doing a good job and they be unprofessional and it may be a waste of time, it's just not illegal.
 
You may be right. I do know that the Israeli's profile for a reason. It is antithetical to the American way of thinking. I don't know if profiling is constitutional. I would prefer we try it and let someone sue. The TSA screeners may not be doing a good job and they be unprofessional and it may be a waste of time, it's just not illegal.

And anyone who's taken an ethics course, or even thought about it, knows that what's legal isn't always right. When the Constitution was written, I don't think the founding fathers intended for it to be a document used to micromanage citizens. It was a document that indicated, clearly, what rights we have.

Flying on a plane is not the same as entering a secret military facility. Millions of people fly daily, and business depends on ready, expedient access to airplanes. Does the District Manager of a corporation really need to have his privy parts touched for our security?

I used to LOVE flying when I was a kid. Now I'd sooner not attend anything that I can't drive to in a reasonable amount of time.
 
And anyone who's taken an ethics course, or even thought about it, knows that what's legal isn't always right. When the Constitution was written, I don't think the founding fathers intended for it to be a document used to micromanage citizens. It was a document that indicated, clearly, what rights we have.

Flying on a plane is not the same as entering a secret military facility. Millions of people fly daily, and business depends on ready, expedient access to airplanes. Does the District Manager of a corporation really need to have his privy parts touched for our security?

I used to LOVE flying when I was a kid. Now I'd sooner not attend anything that I can't drive to in a reasonable amount of time.

We don't live in a society of "right" we live in a society of laws. As of yet, we don't bend those rules, at least not the bill of rights...
 
You are an arrogant selfish ****-*** whose need for gossip, titliation, and self amusement is more valuable than human life.

Wow. Really? This doesn't count as flaming? 🙄 How did you even draw this conclusion from what I said?
 
Wow. Really? This doesn't count as flaming? 🙄 How did you even draw this conclusion from what I said?

I draw this conclusion because you seem to feel it's right and proper for this information to be made public. It serves no public good, provides no real new information about the war in Afghanistan and by publishing the list of possible targets and their level of protection, it gave our enemies a target list with the status of there current security. Nothing good will come out of this. Nothing.

As for business leaks, I don't like gossip, but I could care less if Pfizer's internal memos are leaked.

What most of you who support the ****-**** from Australia or New Zealand is that this is death of privacy. Anything you might say or write at work may be published some day. Ain't that grand....
 
We don't live in a society of "right" we live in a society of laws. As of yet, we don't bend those rules, at least not the bill of rights...

The state does a poor job of upholding law.

Also, the notion that the federal government doesn't violate the Bill of Rights is ... incredible. This is blatantly untrue.

you seem to feel it's right and proper for this information to be made public. It serves no public good, provides no real new information about the war in Afghanistan and [...] it gave our enemies a target list with the status of there current security. Nothing good will come out of this. Nothing.

"Nothing good will come out of this." -- I disagree.

As for the "target list" against Afghans, Pakistanis, and others who have assisted the US military: What do you expect would happen if you were to help an unwelcome foreign army invade and occupy your home country? They shouldn't be surprised to find targets on their backs.

You don't have a right to fly on an airplane. If that is what it takes to make sure an underwear bomber DOES NOT get on a plane, I could live with it.

These measures do not provide security and are nothing more than theatrics to condition people to obey the state--while Michael Chertoff and friends make a profit off the machines, of course.

Beyond that, though, let me clarify what your main point is: You're arguing that the state can read my e-mails. It can track my bank accounts. It can finger-**** my wife in the airport.

But if we lowly citizens turn the tables, if we reveal the truth about the state--that it literally tortured men to death at Abu Ghraib after coving them in human feces and electrocuting their testicles, that it stole trillions from taxpayers to give it to incompetent banksters, that it gunned down a rescue vehicle then humiliated the corpses by running over them with a tank and snickering about it--then we are the criminals? Telling the truth is a crime?

See how Bradley Manning is already losing his mind due to extreme solitary confinement and sensory deprivation in a tiny cell, without even a pillow or sheets to sleep on.
 
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Let's see how brilliant you are. Not very as you plainly claim facts not in evidence.

The state does a poor job of upholding law.

Also, the notion that the federal government doesn't violate the Bill of Rights is ... incredible. This is blatantly untrue.

Where in anything I wrote did you get the notion (clear lack of reading comprehension on your part) that I believe the government is God who commits no wrong. I definitely fear the power of the Federal government is too large. The government has violated the law of the country many times. So what, that's not what we are discussing here.





As for the "target list" against Afghans, Pakistanis, and others who have assisted the US military: What do you expect would happen if you were to help an unwelcome foreign army invade and occupy your home country? They shouldn't be surprised to find targets on their backs.
Again, you show complete disregard for the facts. The list in question is not human assets, but physical assets. Embassys, bases, Federal buildings in the US. Real locations and the security status of each one. With the release of this list, all lines were crossed. If you leak information and it tweaks the government, so be it. When you endanger human beings, there is no justification.



These measures do not provide security and are nothing more than theatrics to condition people to obey the state--while Michael Chertoff and friends make a profit off the machines, of course.

Beyond that, though, let me clarify what your main point is: You're arguing that the state can read my e-mails. It can track my bank accounts. It can finger-**** my wife in the airport.
Whether or not it provides security or not is not for me to say. The Constitution does not allow profiling which is why the searches are random. Until the Supreme court allows profiling, this is the way we do things. And of course, nobody gets finger-******.


But if we lowly citizens turn the tables, if we reveal the truth about the state--that it literally tortured men to death at Abu Ghraib after coving them in human feces and electrocuting their testicles, that it stole trillions from taxpayers to give it to incompetent banksters, that it gunned down a rescue vehicle then humiliated the corpses by running over them with a tank and snickering about it--then we are the criminals? Telling the truth is a crime?
All of those truths came out without Wiki leaks so have still not provided any justification for what Assange did. In fact, if you spend the time to look carefully, the US Government announced the investigation at Abu Ghraib before it was ever published in the media. No lowly US citizens did anything to bring this about. The US had a commission investigate the activities, published a report and charges people with crimes. I never maintain that the US Government never did anything wrong at anytime in US history. None of these arguments you have laid out support the release of diplomatic cables.


See how Bradley Manning is already losing his mind due to extreme solitary confinement and sensory deprivation in a tiny cell, without even a pillow or sheets to sleep on.
That would be his problem. He download the files and gave them to someone to publish. He knew it was illegal and he is paying the price. The thing that separates the Mannings and the Assanges of the world is that they do things they know to be illegal and they expect no consequences. The real heros of the world are willing to suffer the consequences personally in order to achieve a greater good. The difference between a hero and a Narcissist.
 
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Well now, the shoe is on the other foot and it's not too comfortable. It seems Julian (the self righteous ****-head) Assnage is not happy that somebody leaked his arrest reports to the press. What a shame. Something about people in glass houses and stones....

WikiLeaks boss Julian Assange turns on everyone



He accused his media partners at The Guardian newspaper, which worked with him to make the embarrassing leaks public, of unfairly tarnishing him by revealing damaging details of the sex assault allegations he faces in Sweden.
Mr Assange is understood to be particularly angry with a senior reporter at the paper and former friend for "selectively publishing" incriminating sections of the police report, although The Guardian made clear that the WikiLeaks founder was given several days to respond.
 
It can't be said often enough:

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
 
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