Will 2011 be the year?

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PharmD RPh

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Judging by other threads on "diploma mills" and saturated markets, will 2011 be there year colleges finally realize what their students are facing and be proactive to address it? When students don't find a job and start complaining back to their COP, what will we see as the result?
 
I don't know, but my alma mater cut down enrollment for this year. The class is about 15% smaller than when I graduated. I always knew I went to a really good school and this is one more proof. Why pump out people if you can't get them jobs? And we were already one of the smallest schools, which I was astonished to learn at my first APhA meeting.
 
It's not just pharmacy.

The last "bubble" to pop was real estate, the next big one is student loans. There are going to be a lot of people owing a lot of money.............who are unemployed. It's coming.
 
It's not just pharmacy.

The last "bubble" to pop was real estate, the next big one is student loans. There are going to be a lot of people owing a lot of money.............who are unemployed. It's coming.

Completely agree, see my thread on CNBC documentary of student loan bubble. A lot of students don't want to believe this.
 
I don't know, but my alma mater cut down enrollment for this year. The class is about 15% smaller than when I graduated. I always knew I went to a really good school and this is one more proof. Why pump out people if you can't get them jobs? And we were already one of the smallest schools, which I was astonished to learn at my first APhA meeting.

That's awesome, I think there needs to be a call by APhA as well as state and other national organizations to urge all schools to do the same thing. One thing I can't seem to understand is why tuition is going up at some schools at greater than 10% per year while we're in such a bad economy and looming on the financial student loan crisis?
 
It's not just pharmacy.

The last "bubble" to pop was real estate, the next big one is student loans. There are going to be a lot of people owing a lot of money.............who are unemployed. It's coming.

Yep. New York Times ran a good article earlier this week on unemployed law students. I went onto some of the blogs mentioned in that article - law students have it so much worse than pharmacy students.
 
That's awesome, I think there needs to be a call by APhA as well as state and other national organizations to urge all schools to do the same thing. One thing I can't seem to understand is why tuition is going up at some schools at greater than 10% per year while we're in such a bad economy and looming on the financial student loan crisis?

Well, seeing as I work in the industry operating on similar principle... you price based on the "just under the max that the market will bear" and then squeeze the most you can during the limited period of time you can do it, because you know that it's going to end soon.

Additional factor for state schools - they often have no choice, if state cuts financing, they have to make up the money somewhere because they expenses are already committed - and so they raise the tuition.
 
Yes! It will be the year when November 11, 11:11 am strikes, I will send out a goofy email to all my contacts to remind them it's 11-11-11 11:11 !

:meanie:
 
Yep. New York Times ran a good article earlier this week on unemployed law students. I went onto some of the blogs mentioned in that article - law students have it so much worse than pharmacy students.

It is a lot worse for law students, indeed, but the problem is the students themselves a lot of the time. They get worthless BA degrees and then think, well, I can either go be a peon for 5-7 years and work my way up somewhere, or I can avoid real life for 3 more years and become a LAWYERRRR. The biggest problem for people is going to Third or Fourth Tier (Unranked, but lower than #100, as that's the current cut-off for Tier 2) schools in already saturated markets and competing for jobs with grads from much better schools. A great example from my wife's own experience @ SLS - The bay area is super saturated, so the few jobs that are open (Summer Associateships particularly, in 3L) will go to Stanford students first, then Berkeley, then Hastings... and whatever is left will go to McGeorge or UC Davis (none).

Pharmacy won't be quite as bad as law ever just by virtue of the fact that the weeder classes are a lot harder than the classes req'd by law school. Law students don't have to take Calculus, Physics, any Chemistry, or any Biology... so there are a lot more people, sheer numbers, that are eligible for law.

The student loan bubble will be scary but neither my wife nor I will be caught in it thanks to intelligent planning decisions over the last 5 years. When our peers were out "modeling and bottling", we were saving every dime save for one or two big ticket purchases. *shrug*

Failure to plan is planning to fail. If you go to a school that's beyond your means to repay, or if you buy a house/car that's beyond your means to pay for, then it's on you. Not me. Sadly, they drag me into it because we're a "society" or something.
 
Pharmacy won't be quite as bad as law ever just by virtue of the fact that the weeder classes are a lot harder than the classes req'd by law school. Law students don't have to take Calculus, Physics, any Chemistry, or any Biology... so there are a lot more people, sheer numbers, that are eligible for law.

Not if pharmacy schools start to accept C students. It's not that difficult to get Cs.
 
Not if pharmacy schools start to accept C students. It's not that difficult to get Cs.
C's in what? Look! I am very proud of my C in Organic II. What a waste of life that class was! Lol
 
Not if pharmacy schools start to accept C students. It's not that difficult to get Cs.

Overall, it is very sad when people with below a 3.5 GPA and below a 70 PCAT gets accepted...shows just how desperate some pharmacy schools are in filling their seats. Not very good for the profession at all and is the reason why we are in surplus today.
 
Overall, it is very sad when people with below a 3.5 GPA and below a 70 PCAT gets accepted...shows just how desperate some pharmacy schools are in filling their seats. Not very good for the profession at all and is the reason why we are in surplus today.

Enter grumpy student from diploma mill arguing..... :beat:
 
Schools will make money off of students and the government as long as they can.....

one day, the loans will be there and students will not be able to afford it.

The students have to be educated and realize the market and be responsible for themselves.

So often we like to blame others and not ourselves......
 
Schools will make money off of students and the government as long as they can.....

one day, the loans will be there and students will not be able to afford it.

The students have to be educated and realize the market and be responsible for themselves.

So often we like to blame others and not ourselves......

Off topic, but does anyone else read J Dub's post in Stewie's voice or is that me?


Anyways... I feel that loans are increasing in values due to tuition rates for schools from inflation. I think that part of the reason why some of the interest rates increase for loans is the number of people who don't pay them back/ IBR/minimum payments over 10 years, which takes a long time to get back 120-200k or more from each student who takes it (with probably thousands of students doing it every year 4 year term for various programs). If there are 10 years to pay back a loan it takes a while and there is always the chance for people to default; then it takes a while to get the money forced back from garnishing, etc. These are all things I feel they should teach in school as well as how the loans work. If the cost of tuition rates went down ever-so-slightly then the amount of loans and interest would decrease allowing for more people to pay them back.

They should also tell students how credit doesn't matter as long as you have no 90 day late balances or defaults on loans for federal loans in professional school, etc. I thought I was going to not get a loan only because of identity theft where some things went to collections that are being disputed -_- That and the loans don't go away with bankruptcy, etc.
 
Yes! It will be the year when November 11, 11:11 am strikes, I will send out a goofy email to all my contacts to remind them it's 11-11-11 11:11 !

:meanie:

yep! this is one of the bigger events of my upcoming year too!
 
Overall, it is very sad when people with below a 3.5 GPA and below a 70 PCAT gets accepted...shows just how desperate some pharmacy schools are in filling their seats. Not very good for the profession at all and is the reason why we are in surplus today.
I totally agree with you........
 
Schools will make money off of students and the government as long as they can.....

one day, the loans will be there and students will not be able to afford it.

The students have to be educated and realize the market and be responsible for themselves.

So often we like to blame others and not ourselves......

I think that's possibly the most effective solution at this particular point in time 👍


I feel that loans are increasing in values due to tuition rates for schools from inflation. I think that part of the reason why some of the interest rates increase for loans is the number of people who don't pay them back/ IBR/minimum payments over 10 years, which takes a long time to get back 120-200k or more from each student who takes it (with probably thousands of students doing it every year 4 year term for various programs).

They should also tell students how credit doesn't matter as long as you have no 90 day late balances or defaults on loans for federal loans in professional school, etc.


It's neither the problem of education against time vs loan interests nor payments vs credit worthiness.

The problem here is at all, being able to land a job that will enable you reconcile those student loans after graduation, regardless of interest spikes (which is nearly inevitable anyway).

And just like J Dub said, education against the current & likely future trends of a job market is the key. Do it & let the students be responsible for their own decisions.
 
How are students to blame when all we want is to get a good education, get a good job that we love, and enjoy life?

It is people who are out to suck everyone else dry at no expense to themselves that are to blame.

You think these so called "diploma mills" will care once the bubble bursts? They will have gotten the money. There will still be students trying to become pharmacists. and will the schools even care if their students can't find a job?
 
Yes! It will be the year when November 11, 11:11 am strikes, I will send out a goofy email to all my contacts to remind them it's 11-11-11 11:11 !

:meanie:

Won't have a chance. Yesterday, deep within the bowels of the NYC subway system, I was assured that the end of the world will happen on May 21, 2011. 😀
 
Overall, it is very sad when people with below a 3.5 GPA and below a 70 PCAT gets accepted...shows just how desperate some pharmacy schools are in filling their seats. Not very good for the profession at all and is the reason why we are in surplus today.

Careful SHC: Your snobbery is showing... and that's EXACTLY what we need to weed out of our profession.. Those who, instead of acknowledging that Pharmacy is a servant-profession, would turn their noses up at those who aren't academically brilliant, but have the ability to become capable and competent practitioners. I did HORRIBLY on the PCAT and I've evolved into a better practitioner than the straight A, 99 score PCAT students (one of whom flunked out, another who should have) who load and dump the material just to get thru the curriculum to claim a fat paycheck. So check yourself before you start judging abilities based on biased testing. Not everyone is good at standardized testing-- doesn't make you a genius just because you are, or better, OR more capable.
 
Careful SHC: Your snobbery is showing... and that's EXACTLY what we need to weed out of our profession.. Those who, instead of acknowledging that Pharmacy is a servant-profession, would turn their noses up at those who aren't academically brilliant, but have the ability to become capable and competent practitioners. I did HORRIBLY on the PCAT and I've evolved into a better practitioner than the straight A, 99 score PCAT students (one of whom flunked out, another who should have) who load and dump the material just to get thru the curriculum to claim a fat paycheck. So check yourself before you start judging abilities based on biased testing. Not everyone is good at standardized testing-- doesn't make you a genius just because you are, or better, OR more capable.

I agree completely. I had very high PCAT scores and pre-pharm grades (people can search my posts from 2005 if they doubt the veracity of this) but I don't think it makes me better than anyone else. I have been "just ok" as a pharmacy student. Not great and not bad. So grades/scores aren't everything. There are plenty of people who don't have top grades or scores that can become great pharmacists. There are many people with good grades and scores who lack a lick of common sense. Those people are no fun to work with. 👎
 
Overall, it is very sad when people with below a 3.5 GPA and below a 70 PCAT gets accepted...shows just how desperate some pharmacy schools are in filling their seats. Not very good for the profession at all and is the reason why we are in surplus today.

I have seen several pharmacy students who graduated with honors not be able handle retail pharmacy. Pharmacy is about personality and being able to handle several task under pressure, which doesn't correlate to GPA.
Besides, I don't want to see another 4.0 Pharm D snob who is too good to operate drive through or count 30 atenolol....
 
Careful SHC: Your snobbery is showing... and that's EXACTLY what we need to weed out of our profession.. Those who, instead of acknowledging that Pharmacy is a servant-profession, would turn their noses up at those who aren't academically brilliant, but have the ability to become capable and competent practitioners. I did HORRIBLY on the PCAT and I've evolved into a better practitioner than the straight A, 99 score PCAT students (one of whom flunked out, another who should have) who load and dump the material just to get thru the curriculum to claim a fat paycheck. So check yourself before you start judging abilities based on biased testing. Not everyone is good at standardized testing-- doesn't make you a genius just because you are, or better, OR more capable.

Yes, but you have to have a certain base level of intelligence. Grades and standardized tests are a way to measure this. They are also very good predictors of how someone will handle the rigors of pharmacy school. Why should someone who doesn't have the motivation or drive to get good grades get into pharmacy school? I do not buy this I am really smart but do not take tests well argument. If you were so smart then you would figure out what you need to do to get high grades and score well on standardized tests.

I think what this poster was referring to was the new for profit schools lowering their standards in order to fill up their classes. I do agree that this is not good for the profession.
 
I have seen several pharmacy students who graduated with honors not be able handle retail pharmacy. Pharmacy is about personality and being able to handle several task under pressure, which doesn't correlate to GPA.
Besides, I don't want to see another 4.0 Pharm D snob who is too good to operate drive through or count 30 atenolol....

Okay, you are comparing apples to oranges here. There is nothing in pharmacy school that prepares you for retail pharmacy. Because retail pharmacy has nothing to do with what you learned in pharmacy school.

Being able to work under pressure in the worst possible conditions is not something you can teach nor can be predicted by GPA or standardised test scores.

You just summed up all that is wrong with retail pharmacy right here with this statement. Thats why I got a Doctorate of Pharmacy degree so I can operate the drive through.
Besides, I don't want to see another 4.0 Pharm D snob who is too good to operate drive through or count 30 atenolol....
 
Yes, but you have to have a certain base level of intelligence. Grades and standardized tests are a way to measure this. They are also very good predictors of how someone will handle the rigors of pharmacy school. Why should someone who doesn't have the motivation or drive to get good grades get into pharmacy school? I do not buy this I am really smart but do not take tests well argument. If you were so smart then you would figure out what you need to do to get high grades and score well on standardized tests.

I think what this poster was referring to was the new for profit schools lowering their standards in order to fill up their classes. I do agree that this is not good for the profession.

Unfortunately, it's not what you're willing to "buy". If you grew up speaking proper english all your life, the verbal section of the SAT/PCAT/MCAT SHOULD be a breeze-- biased. If you weren't privileged enough to come from a coddled pedigree where you had all the finest tutors, parents who were professionals, etc, and you only spoke what remotely resembled the english language at home then you may not do as well on the verbal section-- biased. Math and Science are skills you acquire as an individual through education, and has little to do with differences in upbringing-- so those are unbiased measures on standardized tests. The fact remains, yes the BEST predictor we have are grades and standardized test scores, BUT that's only a prediction (CONTRAST the student X who was groomed by MD or PharmD parents and lived an easy life that should make straight A's and if they could afford the $1000 for the Kaplan review, that should get a 99 PCAT score WITH the student Y, the single parent who has the aptitude, but not the support and so makes a B or C here and there, but definitely NOT str8 A's.. so his/her B in my opinion outweighs student X's A-- in my opinion, because student Y has shown perserverence AND dedication, both of which are fine qualities in a pharmacist). It's easy to sit back and pass judment when you don't have all the facts. Like I told you, I know some str8 A students who flunked out or should have been kicked out.. and I also know some that joined the "C's get PharmD's" track as soon as they got accepted-- neither did I subscribe to. Was I a straight A student? No-- a 3.6 at best... PCAT of a 99? Nope.. I think I got a 70 or less. Pharmacy school: I carry about a 3.25-- rotations are actually pulling me down since I keep missing an A by a point or so.. but my point is that I was encouraged from my very first rotation to seek a residency. This was a clinical rotation. I was told "a residency program would benefit from having you as a resident", but in your world I don't even belong in pharmacy school? Hmmm... that's interesting.

P.S. I agree-- they need to follow the Med School model and allow the APhA or whatever organization dictate supply and demand within the profession and determine how many programs can open up. It's ridiculous.. My PharmD mill school (I admit its one) is opening a satellite to "ease the shortage" in the Asheville area--- right!! The university must need more money and just like everyone else has been for years-- it's easy to make a quick buck off the pharmacy profession. I predict that at this rate soon we will have 1 pharmacy school for every job site... you don't like your pharmacists, wait until your school graduates you a fresh new batch the next year and replace 'em.

BUT, I do think that pharmacists are too much creatures of habits. I am struggling to get this one position after graduating, which I really hope I get.. but if I don't, I think I will just have to try to forge my own path. They want us to become more clinical and open ambulatory care clinics and work in multidisciplanary practices, and the AMA endorses this.. I think we need to stop relying on "retail" and "hospital" and forge our own paths. Reimburement is low at this point, but you can't tell me you're not inventive enough to sell the idea of optomizing a practice's "trouble patients" medication therapy to a physician who is at wits end with his patients lack of progress... We have the skills... we need to use them. A med school friend of mine was very frank when he said they only know certain handful of drugs, the rest the rely on our recommendations for.
 
Unfortunately, it's not what you're willing to "buy". If you grew up speaking proper english all your life, the verbal section of the SAT/PCAT/MCAT SHOULD be a breeze-- biased. If you weren't privileged enough to come from a coddled pedigree where you had all the finest tutors, parents who were professionals, etc, and you only spoke what remotely resembled the english language at home then you may not do as well on the verbal section-- biased. Math and Science are skills you acquire as an individual through education, and has little to do with differences in upbringing-- so those are unbiased measures on standardized tests. The fact remains, yes the BEST predictor we have are grades and standardized test scores, BUT that's only a prediction (CONTRAST the student X who was groomed by MD or PharmD parents and lived an easy life that should make straight A's and if they could afford the $1000 for the Kaplan review, that should get a 99 PCAT score WITH the student Y, the single parent who has the aptitude, but not the support and so makes a B or C here and there, but definitely NOT str8 A's.. so his/her B in my opinion outweighs student X's A-- in my opinion, because student Y has shown perserverence AND dedication, both of which are fine qualities in a pharmacist). It's easy to sit back and pass judment when you don't have all the facts. Like I told you, I know some str8 A students who flunked out or should have been kicked out.. and I also know some that joined the "C's get PharmD's" track as soon as they got accepted-- neither did I subscribe to. Was I a straight A student? No-- a 3.6 at best... PCAT of a 99? Nope.. I think I got a 70 or less. Pharmacy school: I carry about a 3.25-- rotations are actually pulling me down since I keep missing an A by a point or so.. but my point is that I was encouraged from my very first rotation to seek a residency. This was a clinical rotation. I was told "a residency program would benefit from having you as a resident", but in your world I don't even belong in pharmacy school? Hmmm... that's interesting.

P.S. I agree-- they need to follow the Med School model and allow the APhA or whatever organization dictate supply and demand within the profession and determine how many programs can open up. It's ridiculous.. My PharmD mill school (I admit its one) is opening a satellite to "ease the shortage" in the Asheville area--- right!! The university must need more money and just like everyone else has been for years-- it's easy to make a quick buck off the pharmacy profession. I predict that at this rate soon we will have 1 pharmacy school for every job site... you don't like your pharmacists, wait until your school graduates you a fresh new batch the next year and replace 'em.

BUT, I do think that pharmacists are too much creatures of habits. I am struggling to get this one position after graduating, which I really hope I get.. but if I don't, I think I will just have to try to forge my own path. They want us to become more clinical and open ambulatory care clinics and work in multidisciplanary practices, and the AMA endorses this.. I think we need to stop relying on "retail" and "hospital" and forge our own paths. Reimburement is low at this point, but you can't tell me you're not inventive enough to sell the idea of optomizing a practice's "trouble patients" medication therapy to a physician who is at wits end with his patients lack of progress... We have the skills... we need to use them. A med school friend of mine was very frank when he said they only know certain handful of drugs, the rest the rely on our recommendations for.

Are you at UNC? I don't think Campbell or Wingate are doing one right now. While it does suck that they are opening a satellite campus, I do commend Erskine Bowles for the fact that he rejected the opening of another pharmacy school completely. It bothered a lot of people but looking at it now I think a lot of people are grateful.
 
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