When will the gravy train end?

[WorthlessOxygen]

Am I expecting too much by wanting her to read 20 books a month?

I mean, I read way more than most of my peers growing up (rural area without cable or Internet) and generally still like reading but I'd say 20 books a month is crazy, yes

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[RxPreceptor]

Whats generation alpha? My kid (born in 2013)? This kid goes crazy when I take away her phone or force her to read. Am I expecting too much by wanting her to read 20 books a month? I don't care if its Goosebumps, just read it. Or go outside and do something in the backyard. I used to shovel a hole for 3 straight months when I was 10 because I thought I could shovel my way to China.

May God help us all…sparda29 has kids & is on team breeder…
A world with little snot nosed, A hole sparda29s running around non stop, unsupervised.

 

[Sparda29]

May God help us all…sparda29 has kids & is on team breeder…
A world with little snot nosed, A hole sparda29s running around non stop, unsupervised.

3 of them so far.

 

[RxPreceptor]

3 of them so far.

Ok, if COVID didn’t convince one that the apocalypse was near…

 

[owlegrad]

I mean that’s basically one a day if you take the weekends off. I was an avid reader as a kid but that would have been extreme even for me. If they do read that many it will almost certainly be below their reading level anyway.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Whats generation alpha? My kid (born in 2013)? This kid goes crazy when I take away her phone or force her to read. Am I expecting too much by wanting her to read 20 books a month? I don't care if its Goosebumps, just read it. Or go outside and do something in the backyard. I used to shovel a hole for 3 straight months when I was 10 because I thought I could shovel my way to China.

You should pay them a small rate per book, that would increase motivation a lot... and you get a very intelligent child out of it.

 

[Sparda29]

You should pay them a small rate per book, that would increase motivation a lot... and you get a very intelligent child out of it.

Yeah, I'm trying to do that incentive based thing. Saw that on a Patrick Bet David video.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Why such an emphasis on reading books? I was an avid reader, basically a nerd. There wasn't much else to do when I was a kid, in the stone age. Now, there are so many ways to stimulate your mind and learn, other than books. I have raised 3 kids, my oldest, now 31, never/ever read a single book (other than textbooks and required reading). He did just fine in school and in college. He is now a systems administrator at IBM, makes more than me after about 8 years. My youngest, is 15, she loves to read, we are constantly at the bookstore, buying books. To each their own.

 

[Sabril]

Why such an emphasis on reading books? I was an avid reader, basically a nerd. There wasn't much else to do when I was a kid, in the stone age. Now, there are so many ways to stimulate your mind and learn, other than books. I have raised 3 kids, my oldest, now 31, never/ever read a single book (other than textbooks and required reading). He did just fine in school and in college. He is now a systems administrator at IBM, makes more than me after about 8 years. My youngest, is 15, she loves to read, we are constantly at the bookstore, buying books. To each their own.

If nothing else, it helps with standardized tests. Which can translate to quite a bit of difference in scholarships. With our income probably none of our children qualify for need-based grants. Sure there are people who are naturally good at it but for the average student, there's no way around it except reading a lot and at a higher level than what a school typically requires.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

If nothing else, it helps with standardized tests. Which can translate to quite a bit of difference in scholarships. With our income probably none of our children qualify for need-based grants. Sure there are people who are naturally good at it but for the average student, there's no way around it except reading a lot and at a higher level than what a school typically requires.

Reading in general, probably. I highly doubt reading at that volume shows much/any improvement over a lighter level. Like another user pointed out, simply requiring X number of books potentially also helps to incentivize reading shorter/easier books too.

 

[lord999]

Reading in general, probably. I highly doubt reading at that volume shows much/any improvement over a lighter level. Like another user pointed out, simply requiring X number of books potentially also helps to incentivize reading shorter/easier books too.

There's quite a bit of research in this area on engagement versus improvement. Earlier reading is exponentially powerful for the 2-5 year old set (there is certainity around the idea of reading to children as a very high payoff to effort and the interesting questions these days is that you do not necessarily need to read "age appropriate" reading if the reader is willing to explain and contextualize. That gets you out of continually reading Frog and Toad Are Friends (although no paleo-Conservative household would be in possession of that book these days due to the subtext of those stories).

As for mid-teens, there is a reasonable minimum, but there is no consensus research on marginal ceilings. There is for second language acquisition (the earlier you get your kid to read in a different language, the better for both acquired and native language).

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

May God help us all…sparda29 has kids & is on team breeder…
A world with little snot nosed, A hole sparda29s running around non stop, unsupervised.

Is anyone surprised Sparda had obsessive behaviors that didn't involve socializing

 

[Dred Pirate]

Whats generation alpha? My kid (born in 2013)? This kid goes crazy when I take away her phone or force her to read. Am I expecting too much by wanting her to read 20 books a month? I don't care if its Goosebumps, just read it. Or go outside and do something in the backyard. I used to shovel a hole for 3 straight months when I was 10 because I thought I could shovel my way to China.

yours might be generation z - alpha is mid 2000's and on I think- my daughter is 4 - none of her friends have jobs yet - pathetic

 

[RXDOC1986]

yours might be generation z - alpha is mid 2000's and on I think- my daughter is 4 - none of her friends have jobs yet - pathetic

My Alpha Gen, little ankle biter ( now 15 ) is an avid reader. She is on the HS JV Tennis Team, on a dance group, runs cross country, is in 4 AP classes. She calls and schedules her two in-home tutors (we pay)! One for general studies, one for pre-calculus/calculus. Straight A's, on the Honors List.
I don't see any way to "make her do anything". I wouldn't know how to "make her" read more books.
Just a word of advice to newer Parents, offer plenty of support, provide every possible resource, be a parent, don't try to be their friend (they don't need more friends). Don't give them any BS, how tough it was when you were young (they don't care). AND things will be just fine.
Trust me, I made more than my share of parenting mistakes. I have a 32 yo and a 27 yo boys, it was never easy with them.

 

[Crn800]

Not to spoil the party or rub salt into the wound, I am in talks with two additional employers who want my service and offer me 100% remote roles, with bonus, equity, full benefits like 401k match etc. Needless to say, ever since I left pharmacy for good, my mental health and financials have improved tremendously...I am loading up tech stocks, and my wife is already looking around to buy our next rental property.

One of the new employers is actually the three letters sweatshop, believe or not. I will be on one of their data science/dev teams, playing with big data and building models which aim to squeeze as much profit as possible from frontline workers...sorry, guys.

That sounds awesome. How soon do you think a GPT-4 successor will replace your line of work though? Large tech companies are also laying off thousands recently from what I have read. Then again that might happen to us in pharmacy as well with AI, but probably not as soon.

 

[letsquitpharm]

That sounds awesome. How soon do you think a GPT-4 successor will replace your line of work though? Large tech companies are also laying off thousands recently from what I have read. Then again that might happen to us in pharmacy as well with AI, but probably not as soon.

The last time I asked chatgpt a question related to a specific web front-end question, it gave me a false answer. The generated code is a catch and miss also. If there are existing code out on the web, chatgpt has a higher chance of getting it right, otherwise it just makes something up lol.

My line of work won't be automated in at least 20 years. 70% of my time is spent on understanding the underlying question, coming up with a hypothesis, clean the dirty data, etc.

Cleaning the dirty data part alone won't be automated in at least 10+ years. If humans are having a hard time tidying nasty datasets manually, no generic programs can take care of it on its own. Computer programs are made to replace highly repetitive work but won't think for you.

Drug info work however is in danger. Anything that can be directly found on web or public database can be used to train chatgpt and its alternatives. Ask chatgpt a general drug info question to find out.

 

[Crn800]

The last time I asked chatgpt a question related to a specific web front-end question, it gave me a false answer. The generated code is a catch and miss also. If there are existing code out on the web, chatgpt has a higher chance of getting it right, otherwise it just makes something up lol.

My line of work won't be automated in at least 20 years. 70% of my time is spent on understanding the underlying question, coming up with a hypothesis, clean the dirty data, etc.

Cleaning the dirty data part alone won't be automated in at least 10+ years. If humans are having a hard time tidying nasty datasets manually, no generic programs can take care of it on its own. Computer programs are made to replace highly repetitive work but won't think for you.

Drug info work however is in danger. Anything that can be directly found on web or public database can be used to train chatgpt and its alternatives. Ask chatgpt a general drug info question to find out.

Not talking about "ChatGPT" based on the currently limited GPT 3.5 turbo, but the one based on 4 and their successors, which are very rapidly gaining accuracy and minimizing "hallucination" - or the act of making stuff up.

Furthermore, much of the reason it does make up stuff is due to lack of access to references and data sets outside its initial training data. Some models work around this (ie Bing Chat - early GPT 4 variant) as they have access to internet search and thus references (can actually read them and cite them). Then they are also adding the ability to use plugins (such as Wolfram Alpha for math which these things struggle in usually). I easily foresee them making plugins and extensions giving them access to a lot of drug info, kinetics, and medical references - which is where I agree with you that pharmacy drug info positions might be in more trouble. Possibly some other roles within pharmacy as well.

But we shall see about the 10-20 years prediction. I personally doubt the field of data science will be anywhere the same within even the next 5 years given everything thats happening now (multi modal LLMs and other stuff within just a span of a few months alone). 10 to 20 years is a very long time in tech, which is a far more agile rapidly evolving field than the slow regulated morass that is pharmacy.

 

[Emmet2301]

That sounds awesome. How soon do you think a GPT-4 successor will replace your line of work though? Large tech companies are also laying off thousands recently from what I have read. Then again that might happen to us in pharmacy as well with AI, but probably not as soon.

I work in tech. Tech companies are laying off due to financial issues and not getting enough client $$ to pay for "pet projects" not really because of GPT/AI.

I used to work on something called "low code". Basically making a full web or desktop app by drag and drop. It was supposed to revolutionize the industry and put devs/engineers out of work. But it failed to do that. Why? Because every company/group wanted customized software to their business process that these "drag and drop" software couldn't match.

I'm not too worried about GPT. If anything, it'll just become a tool we need to learn and work with.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Not talking about "ChatGPT" based on the currently limited GPT 3.5 turbo, but the one based on 4 and their successors, which are very rapidly gaining accuracy and minimizing "hallucination" - or the act of making stuff up.

Furthermore, much of the reason it does make up stuff is due to lack of access to references and data sets outside its initial training data. Some models work around this (ie Bing Chat - early GPT 4 variant) as they have access to internet search and thus references (can actually read them and cite them). Then they are also adding the ability to use plugins (such as Wolfram Alpha for math which these things struggle in usually). I easily foresee them making plugins and extensions giving them access to a lot of drug info, kinetics, and medical references - which is where I agree with you that pharmacy drug info positions might be in more trouble. Possibly some other roles within pharmacy as well.

But we shall see about the 10-20 years prediction. I personally doubt the field of data science will be anywhere the same within even the next 5 years given everything thats happening now (multi modal LLMs and other stuff within just a span of a few months alone). 10 to 20 years is a very long time in tech, which is a far more agile rapidly evolving field than the slow regulated morass that is pharmacy.

Data science wasn't even a thing more than a decade ago. Statisticians or SAS programmers, aka clinical/statistical programmers, have been around for a long long time before tech invented the terms like data science or data engineering, and they are not jobless because of open-source programming languages Python, R, Scala, etc. SAS have been around since 1960s/1970s. It's still very relevant in certain industries, like healthcare, pharma, finance and government. Unlike data scientists in tech, who faced round after rounds of layoffs lately, SAS programmers' job are very stable and high-paying (up to $100/hr contract or $150k+ if salaried for someone with a bachelor and 5yr exp), which can match most tech company offers already. Their jobs are not going away anytime soon in the foreseeable future btw. Recruiters will call you everyday and beg you to consider new opportunities specifically for the ancient dinosaur SAS, not Python, R, Scala, PySpark, Julia or other fancy new tech.

I am not scared of GPT-4 and anything upcoming. General AI can hardly handle all niche tasks. I wish Open AI can come up with something that can automatically clean & merge all datasets, perform exploratory data analysis as needed, propose and run nonlinear mixed effects models, develop and compare covariate models, run simulations on all "what-if" scenarios based on the final model.

 

[lord999]

I can’t wait for ChatGPT babysitters and seniorsitters.

Seriously, another dunk in the AI promises septic tank. AI promises the same …stuff…every decade to new suckers. It turns out the same way every time. Why don’t we learn?

I’m not afraid of AI taking any of my jobs, because people cost less than AI for most of my work. I’d love to see AI pharmacists get CVS sued like Theradoc did for Intermountain.

I would like AI postal service though.

The real test for pervasively passable AI given from my professors is unprintable and bannable here. The indirect way of saying it is if AI emergent behavior becomes self sufficient to the degree that no one would care about the the difference in personal lives and can outmaneuver management, it will be good enough for jobs. Chobits is the PG rated version of this idea.

 

[Crn800]

Data science wasn't even a thing more than a decade ago. Statisticians or SAS programmers, aka clinical/statistical programmers, have been around for a long long time before tech invented the terms like data science or data engineering, and they are not jobless because of open-source programming languages Python, R, Scala, etc. SAS have been around since 1960s/1970s. It's still very relevant in certain industries, like healthcare, pharma, finance and government. Unlike data scientists in tech, who faced round after rounds of layoffs lately, SAS programmers' job are very stable and high-paying (up to $100/hr contract or $150k+ if salaried for someone with a bachelor and 5yr exp), which can match most tech company offers already. Their jobs are not going away anytime soon in the foreseeable future btw. Recruiters will call you everyday and beg you to consider new opportunities specifically for the ancient dinosaur SAS, not Python, R, Scala, PySpark, Julia or other fancy new tech.

I am not scared of GPT-4 and anything upcoming. General AI can hardly handle all niche tasks. I wish Open AI can come up with something that can automatically clean & merge all datasets, perform exploratory data analysis as needed, propose and run nonlinear mixed effects models, develop and compare covariate models, run simulations on all "what-if" scenarios based on the final model.

As someone who has seen tech evolve after the 2000 bubble burst and web 1.0 and 2.0, Ive seen lots of trends come and go. All the web 1.0 people back in the late 90s who lost their jobs in 2000 and 2001, only for things to recover and bloom again years later. Silly fears like Y2K and everyone thinking tech jobs will all go overseas (the latter an actual valid fear early 2000s). It can just as easily turn into a job drought in the future again, and I think it's quite arrogant to claim you'll be able to predict things out 10 to 20 years. We simply don't know. Data science as it's known today is very different than back decades ago, and will very likely be very different in the future.

The generative AI stuff definitely feels like the real deal in terms of disruption potential as compared to the stuff before.

Now I'm not saying that we will see a huge replacement of tech workers, but certainly junior engineers will be impacted. More advanced, experienced, and capable senior people not so much.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Data science was definitely a thing more than 5 years ago. As someone who has seen tech evolve after the 2000 bubble burst and web 1.0 and 2.0, Ive seen lots of trends come and go. All the people back in the late 90s who lost their jobs in 2000 and 2001, only for things to recover and bloom again years later. Silly fears like Y2K and everyone thinking tech jobs will all go overseas (the latter an actual valid fear early 2000s).

The generative AI stuff definitely feels like the real deal in terms of disruption potential as compared to the stuff before.

Now I'm not saying that we will see a huge replacement of tech workers, but certainly junior engineers will be impacted. More advanced, experienced, and capable senior people not so much.

I can recall the first emergence of buzzwords like data science and data engineering in social media when I was still an undergrad. Retrospectively speaking, many biostatisticians, who are often stats/biostats PhDs in pharma, pivoted to "data science" teams in tech back then due to generous compensation packages.

The actual impact of chatgpt on workforce remains to be seen. Before it replaces tech workers, creative writers, document review lawyers, etc will first feel the brunt before all of us do.

 

[Gombrich12]

The actual impact of chatgpt on workforce remains to be seen. Before it replaces tech workers, creative writers, document review lawyers, etc will first feel the brunt before all of us do.

I assume it's already lowering the amount of job openings. It's imperceptible right now but I bet in a year there will be signs of changes in the labor market from the GPT tools. For doing simple tasks in domains you are rusty or unfamiliar with it is a minimum 2x speed up. Removing that kind of friction from day to day work is huge.

 

[Sparda29]

I can’t wait for ChatGPT babysitters and seniorsitters.

Seriously, another dunk in the AI promises septic tank. AI promises the same …stuff…every decade to new suckers. It turns out the same way every time. Why don’t we learn?

I’m not afraid of AI taking any of my jobs, because people cost less than AI for most of my work. I’d love to see AI pharmacists get CVS sued like Theradoc did for Intermountain.

I would like AI postal service though.

The real test for pervasively passable AI given from my professors is unprintable and bannable here. The indirect way of saying it is if AI emergent behavior becomes self sufficient to the degree that no one would care about the the difference in personal lives and can outmaneuver management, it will be good enough for jobs. Chobits is the PG rated version of this idea.

The military is probably the best place to test out AI. Have the AI control drones. I would welcome the rise of Skynet.

 

[letsquitpharm]

I assume it's already lowering the amount of job openings. It's imperceptible right now but I bet in a year there will be signs of changes in the labor market from the GPT tools. For doing simple tasks in domains you are rusty or unfamiliar with it is a minimum 2x speed up. Removing that kind of friction from day to day work is huge.

Even if there's a sizable reduction in # of new job openings, it probably won't be due to chatgpt. The macroeconomic environment just isn't so good.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Also, the proportion of women has been increasing, they make up almost 70% of the P1 class. How many of them will go part time or quit if they have kids? I can't imagine what the cost of childcare will be in 6 years, but working as a pharmacist may not make sense if you have multiple kids who require daycare.

This, reality is most women at least want to cut back on their hours when their children are young. I did (both--I wanted to, and so I could, so I did.) Most female pharmacist do return full-time to the workforce, but not all. While this is very hard to quantify--what percentage of female pharmacists will work full-time, what percentage will quit work completely, what percentage will decrease to 2 - 4 days/week.....there is no doubt that the high percentage of female pharmacists does affect the availability of pharmacists in the workforce at any given time.

Totally agree with you on this. I've seen so many people get terminal illness in their 50s. I rather spend most of my saving now to create memories & experiences while I can still fully enjoy it. There is no point of sitting on millions of dollar in your 70s and your main diet is medication and your daily activity is doctor appointments.

This. Completely this.
I could have, and probably should (and should be) saving more....but I don't regret working less hours when my children were young. I don't regret turning down overtime now just because I want to play video games or veg out. I don't regret spending more than I saved on a variety of useless things and experiences, just because I wanted the useless things and experiences at the time. That said.....I did make it a priority to pay off my (relatively modest) house, I made/will make sure my children graduate college debt-free, and I do have a moderate 401-b/401-k. But I am no where close in being a millionaire in my assets, as Dave Ramsey and some of the pharmacists here seem to think I should be, in my Gen-X years.
I figure, most likely my taste for fine foods and wines will keep diminishing the older I get, as will my tolerance and physical health....so if I end up in my elder years with a meager, minimum wage income in my paid off house, so be it. Any of us could die tomorrow, while we should plan for elder age, I think its foolish to put off living and enjoying life tomorrow, just to have numbers in the bank.

I don't know about you but the pharmacists I've worked with in their 40s-50s are stereotyped as slow and lazy, the younger ones often have to pick up their slack. Not saying all of them are like this of course but that's how many of them are viewed. I'm sure I'll be the same way when I'm close to retirement.

Being older and looking back on a long work history in a variety of settings, I think its roughly equivalent. There are slow and lazy pharmacists in every age group, and that never changes. I think the only difference with age, is young pharmacists are more likely to feel guilty/know its societally frowned on, to be slow and lazy, so they will try to hide it or make up for it (buying pizza for the techs!)....while the older pharmacists are more likely to not give a d*mn so they are out in the open about it. So it might seem at first glance that the older pharmacists are more slow and lazy, but look again, and I think everyone will seem it is the same.

Why such an emphasis on reading books? I was an avid reader, basically a nerd. There wasn't much else to do when I was a kid, in the stone age. Now, there are so many ways to stimulate your mind and learn, other than books. I have raised 3 kids, my oldest, now 31, never/ever read a single book (other than textbooks and required reading). He did just fine in school and in college. He is now a systems administrator at IBM, makes more than me after about 8 years. My youngest, is 15, she loves to read, we are constantly at the bookstore, buying books. To each their own.

I agree. I did nothing but read when I was younger in the pre-computer age. Now the majority of my reading is when I have to for work or CE. Of course, I am reading on-line a lot, news articles & blogs, and message boards.....but there is so much to do, I don't have the time, or inclination, to just just read a book like I used to.

 

[RXDOC1986]

The gravy train will continue to eternity hehe. The train is certainly crowded now. A lot of us are disappointed with the quantity & quality of the gravy they get (after paying a hefty price for the train ticket). Sure, technology will probably removes some seats (seem like the Retail cart will be remodeled) but Supply & Demand will balance things out. Will technology make our job obsolete? Maybe in a far future but not now. You see, we currently have the technology to fly any airplane without the pilot in the cockpit but the airlines still pay their pilots 200k- 400k annual salary (and they staff 2-3 pilots per flight)!! Do pilots get their pay reduced because they mainly just program the flight plan & press buttons in the cockpit? I don't see it yet. Why dont the airlines replace pilots with "aircraft maintenance technician" who can also do all those tasks really well? We are just not ready to remove the "human touch" from any job that may need a "human judgement " yet! So if I still see "pilots" flying planes, I am not worried about my pharmacist pay hehe !

This pilot mega salaries are a myth. My brother in-law is a commercial pilot. Like him, most every pilot, begins as an Army, Navy, Airforce veteran. They put in many years climbing the aeronautics ladder. They "qualify" into big-boy jetliners in their late 50s. Then they are in Forced retirement by 62 (just raised to 65). The window of making low $200K is a few short years. The rest of their career, they make sub-$100K

Pilot · Average Pay ·
$41,809 per year
Top paying companies

• T
  Tradewind Aviation
  $163,718
• 
  American Airlines
  $156,797
• 
  U.S. Department of the Navy
  $150,619
• 
  US Department of Transportation
  $121,712
• T
  The Rockhill Group
  $103,204

Data from: Indeed.com

 

[RN2RPh]

This pilot mega salaries are a myth. My brother in-law is a commercial pilot. Like him, most every pilot, begins as an Army, Navy, Airforce veteran. They put in many years climbing the aeronautics ladder. They "qualify" into big-boy jetliners in their late 50s. Then they are in Forced retirement by 62 (just raised to 65). The window of making low $200K is a few short years. The rest of their career, they make sub-$100K

Pilot · Average Pay ·
$41,809 per year
Top paying companies

• T
  Tradewind Aviation
  $163,718
• 
  American Airlines
  $156,797
• 
  U.S. Department of the Navy
  $150,619
• 
  US Department of Transportation
  $121,712
• T
  The Rockhill Group
  $103,204

Data from: Indeed.com

I also know a few airline pilots (they were my flight intructors) and this is their typical career path as a civilian:
_ They graduate from college as a flight instructor (CFI) at ~ 22 year old (yo) with ~ 250-300 flight hours (FH)
_ They spend ~ 3 years teaching as CFI (~500 FH/yr). Once they get ~ 1500 FH, they obtain their Airline Transport Pilot License (ATP) (~25 yo)
_ With an ATP, they start as First Officer (FO) at a regional airline (Horizon, Mesa,...). Then get upgraded to Captain (CPT) after 2-3 years (they fly ~ 1000 FH/year) (~28 yo)
_ Then usually after ~5 years at regional, they eventually get to the Major Airlines (Alaska, Southwest, Delta...) (~30 yo). Again they start as FO and likely flying single aisle aircrafts (Boeing 737 or Airbus A320). They spend ~10 year as FO before getting upgraded to CPT (~40 yo)

For military pilot, they have a 10 years service commitment after earning their wings. So if someone get commissioned at 22 yo, then ~ 2 more year for pilot training, they gotta wait until ~34-35 yo to become civilian again. However, these pilots usually go straight to major airlines after leaving service.

For pay scale, you can go to airlinepilotcentral.com and check. Below is just an example from American Airline (update in 2021) (American Airlines | AirlinePilotCentral.com):

As a general rule, you add 000 after their hourly rate to find their annual pay (as they fly ~1000 hr/year). So if you make Captain (aka "the Left seat") in your 40s, you have ~20 years to earn big bucks. True, airline pilots don't make 100k+ as RPh in their 20s, they catch up with us once they reach Major Airline (see below for FO pay scale from American Airline):

With a lot of pilots retired during the pandemic, now is a good time to become an airline pilot. Your pay is better and your upgrade time is shorter.

 

[RXDOC1986]

I also know a few airline pilots (they were my flight intructors) and this is their typical career path as a civilian:
_ They graduate from college as a flight instructor (CFI) at ~ 22 year old (yo) with ~ 250-300 flight hours (FH)
_ They spend ~ 3 years teaching as CFI (~500 FH/yr). Once they get ~ 1500 FH, they obtain their Airline Transport Pilot License (ATP) (~25 yo)
_ With an ATP, they start as First Officer (FO) at a regional airline (Horizon, Mesa,...). Then get upgraded to Captain (CPT) after 2-3 years (they fly ~ 1000 FH/year) (~28 yo)
_ Then usually after ~5 years at regional, they eventually get to the Major Airlines (Alaska, Southwest, Delta...) (~30 yo). Again they start as FO and likely flying single aisle aircrafts (Boeing 737 or Airbus A320). They spend ~10 year as FO before getting upgraded to CPT (~40 yo)

For military pilot, they have a 10 years service commitment after earning their wings. So if someone get commissioned at 22 yo, then ~ 2 more year for pilot training, they gotta wait until ~34-35 yo to become civilian again. However, these pilots usually go straight to major airlines after leaving service.

For pay scale, you can go to airlinepilotcentral.com and check. Below is just an example from American Airline (update in 2021) (American Airlines | AirlinePilotCentral.com):
View attachment 369437
As a general rule, you add 000 after their hourly rate to find their annual pay (as they fly ~1000 hr/year). So if you make Captain (aka "the Left seat") in your 40s, you have ~20 years to earn big bucks. True, airline pilots don't make 100k+ as RPh in their 20s, they catch up with us once they reach Major Airline (see below for FO pay scale from American Airline):
View attachment 369438
With a lot of pilots retired during the pandemic, now is a good time to become an airline pilot. Your pay is better and your upgrade time is shorter.

I appreciate the above information. The only part I disagree with is the absolute "when", it should be a big "if". The progression outlined above is for a very small percentage. It's like saying every high school athlete, given 5-10 years, goes right into the NFL, making millions.

 

[RN2RPh]

I appreciate the above information. The only part I disagree with is the absolute "when", it should be a big "if". The progression outlined above is for a very small percentage. It's like saying every high school athlete, given 5-10 years, goes right into the NFL, making millions.

If someone want to become a test pilot or fly for the Blue Angels, then yes, it should be a big "If". However, when it comes to general or commercial aviation, it is just a big "when". True, not all students pilots will have the same typical career path and end up at the Major Airlines /Cargo, but the majority of them will. Typically, the more flight hours you have the more chance you will get hire. So as long as you keep flying, you will eventually accumulate enough hours. Also, unlike trying for the NFL (or test pilot school), you don't need to be the most talented pilot.
In the world of professional pilots, "seniority" is everything. It is very uncommon for a pilot to switch employer laterally. Once you get hired by a major airline, you stick with it until you retire. So if you are a regional pilot trying to get to American Airline, you will only compete with other regional pilots; you will not compete with pilots from Delta, Southwest, Alaska...

 

[mentos]

If someone want to become a test pilot or fly for the Blue Angels, then yes, it should be a big "If". However, when it comes to general or commercial aviation, it is just a big "when". True, not all students pilots will have the same typical career path and end up at the Major Airlines /Cargo, but the majority of them will. Typically, the more flight hours you have the more chance you will get hire. So as long as you keep flying, you will eventually accumulate enough hours. Also, unlike trying for the NFL (or test pilot school), you don't need to be the most talented pilot.
In the world of professional pilots, "seniority" is everything. It is very uncommon for a pilot to switch employer laterally. Once you get hired by a major airline, you stick with it until you retire. So if you are a regional pilot trying to get to American Airline, you will only compete with other regional pilots; you will not compete with pilots from Delta, Southwest, Alaska...

Are pilots away from home most of the time? Would they be away from their families for most of the week?

 

[PharmDminus]

Are pilots away from home most of the time? Would they be away from their families for most of the week?

from what ive read they are gone 10-12 nights per month on average

 

[RN2RPh]

Are pilots away from home most of the time? Would they be away from their families for most of the week?

It depends on your seniority & where you live. Each pilot has a base. It is where you begin & end you trip. If you live in LA and your base is Dallas, you have to commute to work. Imagine your trip start early in the morning in Dallas => you have to fly in the night before (and pay for your own hotel). It is the same if your trip end late at night & there is no flight back to LA => you have to pay for your hotel until you can fly home the next morning. So a typical trip with 2-3 nights away from base can turn into a 5 nights away from home. On the other hand, if you live in Dallas and you are senior enough to secure nice schedule, you can drive to your base airport in the morning, fly somewhere, and go back home at night.

 

[mentos]

It depends on your seniority & where you live. Each pilot has a base. It is where you begin & end you trip. If you live in LA and your base is Dallas, you have to commute to work. Imagine your trip start early in the morning in Dallas => you have to fly in the night before (and pay for your own hotel). It is the same if your trip end late at night & there is no flight back to LA => you have to pay for your hotel until you can fly home the next morning. So a typical trip with 2-3 nights away from base can turn into a 5 nights away from home. On the other hand, if you live in Dallas and you are senior enough to secure nice schedule, you can drive to your base airport in the morning, fly somewhere, and go back home at night.

That sounds terrible for raising a family.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Pharmacist pay and work conditions have gone downhill since 2005 or so. Sure there are the occasional high paying unicorn jobs in CA and similar places that offer annual raises to keep up with inflation, but those are the exception not the rule. For the most part pharmacist pay has been stagnant for the past ten years or so especially compared to inflation these past few years. The pandemic created some opportunities for high pay but that was a black swan event.

All basic expenses like insurance, property taxes, childcare, car maintenance, groceries, gas, utilities, etc have gone up significantly in just two years with no end in sight. My electric and gas bills have doubled from a year ago with the same amount of use. Each year our salaries will die by a thousand cuts.

The bean counters will do everything they can to decrease pharmacists pay. Technician responsibilities will increase, hours will be cut etc. Pharmacists will reach a breaking point when work conditions and low pay just aren't worth it anymore.

I'm gonna be working another 30 years or so and I can't imagine my pay holding up for very long. How much longer do we have until the gravy train stops? I can see myself looking for another career within ten years due to stagnant or declining pay.

There are remote workers doing 2-3 full time jobs simultaneously, each job pays 200k+. I wish we had that opportunity.

I think this is a very important, timely thread, that was unfortunately derailed, straight into a ditch, BlueAngels??????

Back to the basic premise:

gra·vy train
[ˈɡrāvē ˌtrān]

NOUN
INFORMAL

1. used to refer to a situation in which someone can make a lot of money for very little effort:
   "come to Hollywood and get on the gravy train"
   SIMILAR:
   child's play
   five-finger exercise
   gift
   walkover
   nothing
   sinecure

2. gravy train​

   noun Slang. a position in which a person or group receives excessive and unjustified money or advantages with little or no effort: The top executives were on the gravy train with their huge bonuses.
3. 
   
   SORRY, but our profession has never met the criteria of ever being on this train. Maybe for some pharmacist, for me, it has been decades of hard work and dedication, in multiple settings, for which I was fairly compensated. BUT never "a lot of money for very little effort" Which one of us, here, fits that description?

 

[RxPreceptor]

That sounds terrible for raising a family.

**** family Breeder…how About helicopter pilots though? 🤪 More in line with your approach to breeding, I mean parenting, I mean controlling every aspect of your kids’ lives/attempting to fulfill your unmet/failed accomplishments in life

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

SORRY, but our profession has never met the criteria of ever being on this train. Maybe for some pharmacist, for me, it has been decades of hard work and dedication, in multiple settings, for which I was fairly compensated. BUT never "a lot of money for very little effort" Which one of us, here, fits that description?

Right here. Nobody would ever work anywhere else if they knew how little effort we expend here.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Right here. Nobody would ever work anywhere else if they knew how little effort we expend here.

That has to be one short train, you and the unicorns and rainbows, going down the road.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

**** family Breeder…how About helicopter pilots though? 🤪 More in line with your approach to breeding, I mean parenting, I mean controlling every aspect of your kids’ lives/attempting to fulfill your unmet/failed accomplishments in life

Yikes. I have no intention of ever having kids but I thought that sounded pretty rough on the whole home life.

 

[RN2RPh]

I think this is a very important, timely thread, that was unfortunately derailed, straight into a ditch, BlueAngels??????

Back to the basic premise:

gra·vy train
[ˈɡrāvē ˌtrān]

NOUN
INFORMAL

1. used to refer to a situation in which someone can make a lot of money for very little effort:
   "come to Hollywood and get on the gravy train"
   SIMILAR:
   child's play
   five-finger exercise
   gift
   walkover
   nothing
   sinecure

2. gravy train​

   noun Slang. a position in which a person or group receives excessive and unjustified money or advantages with little or no effort: The top executives were on the gravy train with their huge bonuses.
3. 
   
   SORRY, but our profession has never met the criteria of ever being on this train. Maybe for some pharmacist, for me, it has been decades of hard work and dedication, in multiple settings, for which I was fairly compensated. BUT never "a lot of money for very little effort" Which one of us, here, fits that description?

Then what profession qualify for that criteria ?

 

[RN2RPh]

Right here. Nobody would ever work anywhere else if they knew how little effort we expend here.

Another one here. A hidden gem in the pharmacy world. Getting paid above average for a job that requires less efforts than the average.
Oh and when I got paid my RPh rate for just drawing vaccine, I was definitely on a gravy train.

 

[mentos]

I think this is a very important, timely thread, that was unfortunately derailed, straight into a ditch, BlueAngels??????

Back to the basic premise:

gra·vy train
[ˈɡrāvē ˌtrān]

NOUN
INFORMAL

1. used to refer to a situation in which someone can make a lot of money for very little effort:
   "come to Hollywood and get on the gravy train"
   SIMILAR:
   child's play
   five-finger exercise
   gift
   walkover
   nothing
   sinecure

2. gravy train​

   noun Slang. a position in which a person or group receives excessive and unjustified money or advantages with little or no effort: The top executives were on the gravy train with their huge bonuses.
3. 
   
   SORRY, but our profession has never met the criteria of ever being on this train. Maybe for some pharmacist, for me, it has been decades of hard work and dedication, in multiple settings, for which I was fairly compensated. BUT never "a lot of money for very little effort" Which one of us, here, fits that description?

Let's be honest, retail pharmacy used to be easy before they cut hours every year, especially if you were lucky enough to work in a grocery store or Target. Remember that Walgreens tech that worked as a fake pharmacist for 12 years? There wouldn't be over 100 pharmacy schools and 15k PharmDs per year if it was difficult and didn't pay well.

 

[mentos]

**** family Breeder…how About helicopter pilots though? 🤪 More in line with your approach to breeding, I mean parenting, I mean controlling every aspect of your kids’ lives/attempting to fulfill your unmet/failed accomplishments in life

Is that what you say to your parents?

 

[Splenda88]

Then what profession qualify for that criteria ?

Probably medicine. I got a pretty ok hospital medicine job. I work 7 days on/off (or ~70 hrs every other week) for a salary of 330k/yr; they just announced that we will likely get 20k raise starting July.

I hope that gravy train will last for another 10 yrs. I have a feeling that the healthcare system will not be sustainable after 10 yrs.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Is that what you say to your parents?

Like totally

But seriously resent my parents, live a solid 1,000 miles away and don’t even talk to them…probably had something to do with them trying to control every aspect of my life and brainwash me with their personal biases (politics, religion) that makes me resent them so much

 

[RxPreceptor]

Yikes. I have no intention of ever having kids but I thought that sounded pretty rough on the whole home life.

I am just having some fun with @mentos and team breeder vs team non breeder. I mean it feels like it’s been a while since we’ve clashed ideologies

 

[Splenda88]

Like totally

But seriously resent my parents, live a solid 1,000 miles away and don’t even talk to them…probably had something to do with them trying to control every aspect of my life and brainwash me with their personal biases (politics, religion) that makes me resent them so much

Your parents are probably conservative (I am a center right). I have noticed that more about conservative people than liberal.

 

[JustFillIt]

I think it is important to note that we are in an interesting time in history where there are a GREAT NUMBER of professions which are under pressure over the next 5 years and beyond.

AI will has massive applications and the possibilities are endless here.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

I think this is a very important, timely thread, that was unfortunately derailed, straight into a ditch, BlueAngels??????

Back to the basic premise:

gra·vy train
[ˈɡrāvē ˌtrān]

NOUN
INFORMAL

1. used to refer to a situation in which someone can make a lot of money for very little effort:
   "come to Hollywood and get on the gravy train"
   SIMILAR:
   child's play
   five-finger exercise
   gift
   walkover
   nothing
   sinecure

2. gravy train​

   noun Slang. a position in which a person or group receives excessive and unjustified money or advantages with little or no effort: The top executives were on the gravy train with their huge bonuses.
3. 
   
   SORRY, but our profession has never met the criteria of ever being on this train. Maybe for some pharmacist, for me, it has been decades of hard work and dedication, in multiple settings, for which I was fairly compensated. BUT never "a lot of money for very little effort" Which one of us, here, fits that description?

I'm a CS pharmacist working for META bro
I went to coding boot camp bro
Now I get paid 500k bro
I get to WFH bro
I get SBC bro
I get unlimited PTO bro
Now that's a gravy train bro

 

[projektreverb]

I'm a CS pharmacist working for META bro
I went to coding boot camp bro
Now I get paid 500k bro
I get to WFH bro
I get SBC bro
I get unlimited PTO bro
Now that's a gravy train bro

Next year it’ll be a million billion trillion bro