Will DO's still have DO only residencies to "fall back" on if needed?

[BrianK0220]

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[Prncssbuttercup]

As far as I am aware, based on what the AOA president said at RVU to my class on Friday, MD's will have the option to apply at a DO residency. They are working out the details on how that will work as far as OMM... Please tell me which schools only have ~70% pass rates?

 

[Ost3oclast]

Short answer: NO.

Its complicated though. Although AOA residencies will be open to MD's, they MIGHT face the same bias osteopathic students do in the match when trying for these residency programs. I think the first couple of years will still show primarily osteopathic students in previously AOA programs. This is all just speculation though.

Also, dont go carib. If you think its getting tough for DO's, you havent seen anything until you have seen what the future will probably hold for carib students.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Will DO's still have DO only residencies to "fall back" on if needed with the changes in the accreditation process?

If not, does this make SGU a better option than some newer DO schools with board pass rates of ~70%?

I do not mean any disrespect to ANYONE. Thanks in advance.

no... SGU is not a better option... their board pass rates and match rates don't even touch DO schools. Even after the artificial inflation....

As far as I am aware, based on what the AOA president said at RVU to my class on Friday, MD's will have the option to apply at a DO residency. They are working out the details on how that will work as far as OMM... Please tell me which schools only have ~70% pass rates?

I think he meant USMLE pass rates. 70 is a little below the average, I believe (of those who attempt) but it isn't that far off from the pass rates a few years back and some schools may still hit this.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Short answer: NO.

Its complicated though. Although AOA residencies will be open to MD's, they MIGHT face the same bias osteopathic students do in the match when trying for these residency programs. I think the first couple of years will still show primarily osteopathic students in previously AOA programs. This is all just speculation though.

Also, dont go carib. If you think its getting tough for DO's, you havent seen anything until you have seen what the future will probably hold for carib students.

I agree. The administration of these programs is not being changed out and all of the old rules still apply.

 

[HalfListic]

Will DO's still have DO only residencies to "fall back" on if needed with the changes in the accreditation process?

If not, does this make SGU a better option than some newer DO schools with board pass rates of ~70%?

I do not mean any disrespect to ANYONE. Thanks in advance.

I can't see how this would be disrespectful to anyone, so don't worry about that.

For your questions, first, it is not yet known if current AOA residencies will be open to MDs at all (though its likely) If they are, it's seems also likely that there will not be too big of a change in a DO being able to match, it will still come down to the preparation of each student doctor.

As for Going foreign, that will remain as it is now...a viable option if you can't stay in the US. US MDs and DOs will continue to have preference for GME spots (Be they MD or DO run). But if you can't get in stateside, and still want to be a doc, I wouldn't be scared to go to one of the decent Caribbean school (SGU, Ross)

 

[Ost3oclast]

no... SGU is not a better option... their board pass rates and match rates don't even touch DO schools. Even after the artificial inflation....


I think he meant USMLE pass rates. 70 is a little below the average, I believe (of those who attempt) but it isn't that far off from the pass rates a few years back and some schools may still hit this.

I was confused about this too. I could see some DO schools having that pass rate for USMLE.

OP, research osteo schools that have higher USMLE pass rates. There are a few that have 95-96% rates. Maybe look into those? Remember though that osteo students that actually take the USMLE are a self selecting group. Not everybody takes it.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I was confused about this too. I could see some DO schools having that pass rate for USMLE.

OP, research osteo schools that have higher USMLE pass rates. There are a few that have 95-96% rates. Maybe look into those? Remember though that osteo students that actually take the USMLE are a self selecting group. Not everybody takes it.

have you ever heard of DO schools refusing to sponsor a student to take the USMLE based on COMLEX score or previous performance? Just curious. SGU does things like this in order to bolster their numbers. I don't think DO schools would care one way or the other about their USMLE pass rates but it is within the realm of possibility.

 

[Ost3oclast]

have you ever heard of DO schools refusing to sponsor a student to take the USMLE based on COMLEX score or previous performance? Just curious. SGU does things like this in order to bolster their numbers. I don't think DO schools would care one way or the other about their USMLE pass rates but it is within the realm of possibility.

I havent heard of DO schools doing that but I'm sure its a possibility. I know at AZCOM they made a big deal out of the fact that their students did so well on the USMLE. They also bragged a lot about how the majority of their class matches ACGME as well (not that it matters now).

All in all, it probably just depends on the school.

 

[411309]

Let me clear something up, the OP is talking about WCU because they had like a 71% pass rate their first class. Is that bad? Honestly when you think about it's not terrible. DO schools that are just opening tend to have a little lower stats because they gamble on people that have 22-23 MCAT scores. I don't think mcat score has that much correlation to board scores but if you studied your ass off and only got a 22-23 there is a good chance youll have trouble with the boards, and im not saying this to be a douche. Also WCU's class size was only around 100 if i recall. But they also had like 4-5% attrition. Now let's compare that to a school like ross with 50% attrition or more and 90% pass rate. So only half of their class even goes on to take the boards and it's the better half; so you're either a good student or a bad one, no in between. The people that survive the boards are the people that survived jumping through all the hoops ross gave them so to them, boards arent so bad, lol. Would you rather go to a school with 4-5% attrition and a 71% pass rate or a school with 50%+ attrition and a 90% pass rate? hmmmmmm.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Let me clear something up, the OP is talking about WCU because they had like a 71% pass rate their first class. Is that bad? Honestly when you think about it's not terrible. DO schools that are just opening tend to have a little lower stats because they gamble on people that have 22-23 MCAT scores. I don't think mcat score has that much correlation to board scores but if you studied your ass off and only got a 22-23 there is a good chance youll have trouble with the boards, and im not saying this to be a douche. Also WCU's class size was only around 100 if i recall. But they also had like 4-5% attrition. Now let's compare that to a school like ross with 50% attrition or more and 90% pass rate. So only half of their class even goes on to take the boards and it's the better half; so you're either a good student or a bad one, no in between. The people that survive the boards are the people that survived jumping through all the hoops ross gave them so to them, boards arent so bad, lol. Would you rather go to a school with 4-5% attrition and a 71% pass rate or a school with 50%+ attrition and a 90% pass rate? hmmmmmm.

Not to mention the people that actually DO pass at ross or SGU usually get screwed come residency time. Even more so now if DO students start to have a bigger presence in the ACGME match.

 

[MedPR]

Will DO's still have DO only residencies to "fall back" on if needed with the changes in the accreditation process?

If not, does this make SGU a better option than some newer DO schools with board pass rates of ~70%?

I do not mean any disrespect to ANYONE. Thanks in advance.

SGU is not a better option. The top DO students will gain a lot from the new "rules" and the bottom DO students will likely get screwed as the COMLEX likely becomes more difficult and the AOA becomes more competitive.

Let me clear something up, the OP is talking about WCU because they had like a 71% pass rate their first class. Is that bad? Honestly when you think about it's not terrible. DO schools that are just opening tend to have a little lower stats because they gamble on people that have 22-23 MCAT scores. I don't think mcat score has that much correlation to board scores but if you studied your ass off and only got a 22-23 there is a good chance youll have trouble with the boards, and im not saying this to be a douche. Also WCU's class size was only around 100 if i recall. But they also had like 4-5% attrition. Now let's compare that to a school like ross with 50% attrition or more and 90% pass rate. So only half of their class even goes on to take the boards and it's the better half; so you're either a good student or a bad one, no in between. The people that survive the boards are the people that survived jumping through all the hoops ross gave them so to them, boards arent so bad, lol. Would you rather go to a school with 4-5% attrition and a 71% pass rate or a school with 50%+ attrition and a 90% pass rate? hmmmmmm.

Sorry, a 71% pass rate is terrible and comparing it to something even worse doesn't change that.

 

[411309]

I don't see how the comlex is becoming more difficult? And 70-75% is the average for first year DO schools, Paul. It's because at new schools you have a quarter that shouldnt be there that make it in because of their amazing ECs but can't cut it.

 

[488677]

This is a very good discussion.

Certain medical schools have board passing secrets that they only share with their medical students. This is why you should pick the medical school with the highest board passing rate.

Also, make sure you know what you want to go into prior to starting medical school. This way you can look at match lists to determine what medical school is best for you.

 

[SpecterGT260]

This is a very good discussion.

Certain medical schools have board passing secrets that they only share with their medical students. This is why you should pick the medical school with the highest board passing rate.

Also, make sure you know what you want to go into prior to starting medical school. This way you can look at match lists to determine what medical school is best for you.

this is usually not published. Other than seeking out students at each school I don't know how someone would go about choosing based on this.

 

[411309]

This is a very good discussion.

Certain medical schools have board passing secrets that they only share with their medical students. This is why you should pick the medical school with the highest board passing rate.

Also, make sure you know what you want to go into prior to starting medical school. This way you can look at match lists to determine what medical school is best for you.

this is terrible advice, lol. pass rates dont mean anything because several schools make you take a test and obtain a certain score before you can even take the real deal. not to mention who cares if you have a 90% pass rate but all the scores are mediocre vs a school with a 71% pass rate and nothing but high scores of those 71%?

and no one REALLY knows what they want to be before med school, they have an educated guess at best.

 

[411309]

for the record you choose the school that will give you the most tools for success and fits your personality the best, you dont go by the highest pass rates, lol.

 

[488677]

for the record you choose the school that will give you the most tools for success and fits your personality the best, you dont go by the highest pass rates, lol.

Are you implying that passing and matching are dependent on the individual?

Hm...

 

[411309]

Are you implying that passing and matching are dependent on the individual?

Hm...

yes...at ACOM for example you have two entire months to study for boards+what you have learned from preclinical education. this is dependent on you and what you do in those two months. and if you get a nice score chances are youll have some nice options.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Are you implying that passing and matching are dependent on the individual?

Hm...

are you implying that they aren't? Why don't you go ahead and give me more assurance on how I will be ok if I just work hard 🙄

Schools don't really impart boards testing secrets in order to get their students out there. In fact, most top schools leave boards largely up to the individual, provide a solid base of education, but insist they "do not teach for the boards". We have plenty of materials but it isn't like there is some deeper knowledge that makes students at my school match better than others or vice versa.

 

[411309]

are you implying that they aren't? Why don't you go ahead and give me more assurance on how I will be ok if I just work hard 🙄

Schools don't really impart boards testing secrets in order to get their students out there. In fact, most top schools leave boards largely up to the individual, provide a solid base of education, but insist they "do not teach for the boards". We have plenty of materials but it isn't like there is some deeper knowledge that makes students at my school match better than others or vice versa.

pretty much what he said, its your job to open up a book and review the material if you don't do it the right way then yeah it's probably your fault, lol.

 

[SpecterGT260]

pretty much what he said, its your job to open up a book and review the material if you don't do it the right way then yeah it's probably your fault, lol.

what HE said or what ME said?

because The Aspiring One was saying that certain schools teach you ancient ninja moves to pass boards and have secret hand shakes with certain specialties so you need to go somewhere based on boards scores.... which is also an unpublished number so...... He also seemed incredulous about you suggesting that passing and matching has more to do with the individual than the school in most cases.

 

[Vita]

I'm a 4th year DO student. My mother is a director of a dual program (she is a DO as well) in Family Medicine. I can tell you just from the DOs that I know (which are a lot) that the field in general is very tight, and will likely have a huge bias towards MDs in their programs.

The reason I think this is because many of these older DOs trained in a time when they faced true discrimination for their degree. They still have a lot of rhetoric that they pass down to us that has a very "us versus them" feel to it. Being a DO is kinda like being in a club - there aren't as many of us, so we tend to gravitate towards other DOs.

I am applying to MD only Pediatrics residency this year. Even on my residency interviews, I can see the programs strategically placing me with DO residents at lunch/dinner, having DO faculty interview me, etc. My roommate is applying to MD Psych and has had a letter written to her from a DO on faculty at one of the schools. Even though these programs are ACGME (MD) accredited, they know that having DOs in their class/ on their faculty attracts DO students.

So, tangent aside, no - I don't think going Caribbean will ever be the better idea. It hasn't been for many years, and will only get worse with the new schools opening. I'd like to see the match rates of DO students or USMD students who fail a step and still go on to match. Although their options for specialty are limited, they still have a decent chance at matching in SOMETHING.

 

[HalfListic]

Just wanted to jump in and write a few things:


-70% pass rate, even for a new school, is bad. Even if its average, the school should feel bad. They have either taught poorly, or admitted too many unprepared/unmotivated individuals. Pass rates should be in the 90's% for any med school.

-Thant being said, its absolutely horrible advice to choose a school based on pass rates. This is nearly universally understood so its not really even a point of debate.

-Your ability to pass is fully on you...your school can enhance (and maybe, rarely, detract) your efforts to destroy your boards, but passing and performance is on you.

 

[MedPR]

I don't see how the comlex is becoming more difficult? And 70-75% is the average for first year DO schools, Paul. It's because at new schools you have a quarter that shouldnt be there that make it in because of their amazing ECs but can't cut it.

I assume they're going to write COMLEX differently (more like USMLE) with this new ACGME/AOA merger thing.

So you're saying that 70-75% isn't terrible because it's the norm for new DO schools? Yet you say that the high attrition rates at CaribMD are terrible even those that's their norm.

 

[411309]

Just wanted to jump in and write a few things:


-70% pass rate, even for a new school, is bad. Even if its average, the school should feel bad. They have either taught poorly, or admitted too many unprepared/unmotivated individuals. Pass rates should be in the 90's% for any med school.

-Thant being said, its absolutely horrible advice to choose a school based on pass rates. This is nearly universally understood so its not really even a point of debate.

-Your ability to pass is fully on you...your school can enhance (and maybe, rarely, detract) your efforts to destroy your boards, but passing and performance is on you.

it's pretty clear which of those it is. A new school with regional bias is always going to have a decent amount of lower end stats. this happens with most new schools

 

[488677]

I assume they're going to write COMLEX differently (more like USMLE) with this new ACGME/AOA merger thing.

So you're saying that 70-75% isn't terrible because it's the norm for new DO schools? Yet you say that the high attrition rates at CaribMD are terrible even those that's their norm.

it's pretty clear which of those it is. A new school with regional bias is always going to have a decent amount of lower end stats. this happens with most new schools

Oh.

I wrote my last post taking into consideration the new ACGME changes. With all the MDs taking all of the former AOA ROADS residencies from us, I guess I was trying to say it was dependent on DO schools to get us into the residencies left over (i.e. primary care residencies at community based hospitals).

Basically, osteopathic schools get us family practice residencies, and it is up to the individual to get a specific family practice residency at a community hospital.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Oh.

I wrote my last post taking into consideration the new ACGME changes. With all the MDs taking all of the former AOA ROADS residencies from us, I guess I was trying to say it was dependent on DO schools to get us into the residencies left over (i.e. primary care residencies at community based hospitals).

Basically, osteopathic schools get us family practice residencies, and it is up to the individual to get a specific family practice residency at a community hospital.

weren't you ranting just like 2 days ago about how the changes are going to foster in a new golden era of DOs in MD programs?

 

[HalfListic]

it's pretty clear which of those it is. A new school with regional bias is always going to have a decent amount of lower end stats. this happens with most new schools

I'm not speaking to any one school in situation, just a general statement about pass rates.

I'm also a strong believer of not caring what the past has held, or accepting something just because its the norm (I'm not saying you are either, just clarifying the source of my previous comments).

So, even if you are a new school, you have plenty of qualified students to draw from, so I'd say that if a schools pass rate were poor due to a lower quality selection of students, thats is most assuredly the schools fault, again, because there are plenty of qualified applicants each year.

So, even "lower end stats" students are pretty bright people and have the capacity to pass boards. Thus, the average failure rate of ANY school of ANY age should be mostly representative of extenuating circumstances and very few who just aren't capable of passing. I can't think of any situation where this should be significantly greater than 10% of your admitted students and it really should be less than that. (which it is at most schools)

 

[SpecterGT260]

it's pretty clear which of those it is. A new school with regional bias is always going to have a decent amount of lower end stats. this happens with most new schools

I can't tell where you sit on this, smalls... You seem to be agreeing with the guy who was disagreeing with you. Care to respond to my earlier post to you?

 

[HalfListic]

Oh.

I wrote my last post taking into consideration the new ACGME changes. With all the MDs taking all of the former AOA ROADS residencies from us, I guess I was trying to say it was dependent on DO schools to get us into the residencies left over (i.e. primary care residencies at community based hospitals).

Basically, osteopathic schools get us family practice residencies, and it is up to the individual to get a specific family practice residency at a community hospital.

I still refuse to believe you are this dumb.

You are a great troll, though...you play the part of ignorance well. Too well.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I still refuse to believe you are this dumb.

You are a great troll, though...you play the part of ignorance well. Too well.

yeah I dunno.... I don't get the point in people coming in and trolling with any level of complexity.

 

[HalfListic]

I still refuse to believe you are this dumb.

You are a great troll, though...you play the part of ignorance well. Too well.

yeah I dunno.... I don't get the point in people coming in and trolling with any level of complexity.

(this was my fancy way of calling this dude an idiot without being too direct...I've dismissed him so many times, I felt the need to be creative this time 😉 )

 

[SpecterGT260]

(this was my fancy way of calling this dude an buttgopher without being too direct...I've dismissed him so many times, I felt the need to be creative this time 😉 )

oh whoops. Yeah "troll" gets tossed around here so much I don't always follow. Way to be 👍

 

[488677]

I still refuse to believe you are this dumb.

You are a great troll, though...you play the part of ignorance well. Too well.

Ignorant? Apparently you do not listen to the experts (users with more than 5,000 posts) at pre-allo enough.

 

[411309]

I can't tell where you sit on this, smalls... You seem to be agreeing with the guy who was disagreeing with you. Care to respond to my earlier post to you?

my point is, if a student does bad on the boards its their fault. new schools have lower pass rates because they accept a lot of students that wont prepare for the boards the right way. the school helps them the best they can, but ultimately it's the student's fault for faiing. I see what you're saying that it is kinda the schools fault for accepting but hey if they're taking a chance on you then you should be willing to up your game

 

[SpecterGT260]

my point is, if a student does bad on the boards its their fault. new schools have lower pass rates because they accept a lot of students that wont prepare for the boards the right way. the school helps them the best they can, but ultimately it's the student's fault for faiing. I see what you're saying that it is kinda the schools fault for accepting but hey if they're taking a chance on you then you should be willing to up your game

i.... I wasnt saying that at all. Look back at what you quoted of mine and what I quoted from Aspiring... He was saying nothing that you or I are saying now. Once again, we agree 😉

 

[SpecterGT260]

Ignorant? Apparently you do not listen to the experts (users with more than 5,000 posts) at pre-allo enough.

flattery will get you everywhere 😍

 

[michow87]

I don't know if this is known yet, but Caribbean med students have to pass a certain exam before they are allowed to take the Step 1 and move forward in their medical education. just adding some info to convo

 

[488677]

flattery will get you everywhere 😍

You still never told me if I should go MD or DO!!!

 

[SpecterGT260]

You still never told me if I should go MD or DO!!!

I told you, go Pod.

 

[K31]

DO schools seem to be doing a lot better preparing their students for Step 1. Looking at the data, the DO pass rate went from 69% in 2001 to 88% in 2011. And it doesn't seem to be selection--the number of DO students taking the test went from 774 to 2211 over the same time period.

Certain medical schools have board passing secrets that they only share with their medical students. This is why you should pick the medical school with the highest board passing rate.

As someone at a school with an insane Step 1 average, I can tell you there aren't special high score secrets they share with us. It's mostly selecting for good test-takers: high MCAT average=high Step 1 average.

 

[488677]

Ignorant? Apparently you do not listen to the experts (users with more than 5,000 posts) at pre-allo enough.

EDIT: 10,000 posts

...but I will still consider your opinion on if I should go MD or DO.

 

[HalfListic]

my point is, if a student does bad on the boards its their fault. new schools have lower pass rates because they accept a lot of students that wont prepare for the boards the right way. the school helps them the best they can, but ultimately it's the student's fault for faiing. I see what you're saying that it is kinda the schools fault for accepting but hey if they're taking a chance on you then you should be willing to up your game

This may be true, but having a failure rate of ~30% is just a waste of resources and time. So, while each individual failure is each individuals fault, the low pass rate is the bigger tragedy and responsibility rests with the schools.

I think we agree on fault though, but I just wanted to stress the idea that NO school should ever be this low. All med schools need to accept qualified students. Regional bias should probably be done away with anyway, if it were to interfere with quality this poorly. If a community is lacking in Dr's, the community should incentivise doctors to stay or move there (better pay, tax rates, etc)...schools shouldn't settle for lower pass rates to have a higher potential of students staying in the area after training.

 

[488677]

I told you, go Pod.

Again...I'm AWFUL with kids!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Again...I'm AWFUL with kids!

You may be right, Listic... no longer sure if this is a matter of too much free time or too little IQ.

 

[Ost3oclast]

You may be right, Listic... no longer sure if this is a matter of too much free time or too little IQ.

Yea, i've been following this thread with a touch of skepticism myself....now I see whats going on with him.

 

[488677]

You may be right, Listic... no longer sure if this is a matter of too much free time or too little IQ.

Definitely too much free time. I cannot believe I've racked up 100+ posts in only a couple of months! Maybe I should take some time off SDN, or go outside, or make a friend.

What do you think, Specter?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yea, i've been following this thread with a touch of skepticism myself....now I see whats going on with him.

I think it is honestly both....... an either/or restriction seems to not really do this justice.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Definitely too much free time. I cannot believe I've racked up 100+ posts in only a couple of months! Maybe I should take some time off SDN, or go outside, or make a friend.

What do you think, Specter?

Definitely make friends. Try hard.