Will my lack of "university" classes stop me from getting into med school?

[Kiki2011]

So, I graduated from high school in 2009 (WOOT) and will graduating from the University of Denver in 2011 with a B.A. in Psychology with a minor in Env. Science and Chemistry. Problem: I am trying to get into medical school with only 1 year worth of classes, none of which are science classes. My high school was a governor's school (focusing on Environmental Science), basically meaning that you have to apply, take a series of tests, and if you're lucky, get accepted. My governor's school allowed me to take strictly college classes for 3 years (through the local community college) and I came out with every pre-req for medical school completed EXCEPT for Organic Chemistry. I tried to take Organic Chemistry this year, and got a D- in one quarter, and had to drop the second quarter. I literally put in about 2 hours a night for the class, and even tried to find a tutor, but it just didn't click. I will be retaking both classes this summer. I won't be taking the MCAT until July, and I'm sure I'll do well on it. I got a 3.9 GPA first quarter, and REALLY low GPA due to my D- in Organic Chemistry and a C in Italian second quarter, and a 3.9 GPA again this quarter. My concern is that whatever medical school I apply to will think that I can't handle "real university classes" because I took most of my pre-reqs at my governor's school and couldn't even pass Organic Chemistry. All the classes on my transcripts so far are from my gen-ed classes and psych classes. I work in a research lab, volunteer at the hospital, and so much more. Are my chances of getting into medical going to be lowered by the fact that most of my science classes won't be taken until next year? Do you think that my age (I'll be 19 when I graduate) put off some medical schools? Would you guys suggest going into a pre-health certificate program or MS program in order to improve my credentials? I really don't want to do that, but do you believe I at least have a chance of matriculating into the class of 2011? (WOW I wrote a lot! Sorry)

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[Catalystik]

I share your concerns. It is highly unlikely a med school will take a chance on you given the scenario you outline. I recommend against applying this summer. Given the D- and the W, besides acing OChem I & 2 to prove yourself, I'd make a point of taking Biochem at the university level as well as multiple upper-level science classes over the next year. You'll need great grades in everything to reassure adcomms that you have a chance of surviving their science-intense curriculum. Your GPA needs to be your first priority. ECs can be acquired later in the game.

I took OChem I & 2 over the summer. Do not plan to have a lot of time to study for the MCAT, or continue volunteering, or to have any fun. I would delay the MCAT into September, since you won't need the score this year anyway. If it doesn't go well, you have January through April for retakes.

Med schools don't discriminate against you for age. They will discriminate against you if your activities and choices don't reflect maturity. Good time management and setting the proper priorities are things you need to demonstrate. Taking responsibility and having successful leadership activities are others.

Don't rush into this, or it will end badly.

 

[ThaliaNox]

I see your description and I have to admit that some alarm bells go off. You took most of your sciences in high school, and the one class you take at an actual university you really struggle with. It makes me question the rigor of your science classes during high school and makes me wonder about your preparation for the challenges of med school classes.

Your age and experiences will also be possible issues. You may have been active with ECs for one year, (high school doesn't count) but most applicants will have 3+ years of activities. I don't see you being ready to apply this summer. I would take the next year to prove you can master the sciences and to beef up your ECs. Nobody will be impressed if you rush through things.

 

[theWUbear]

Of course high school counts for EC's if someone's ~1 year out of high school and applying.

The deal with average applicant not using high school EC's has to do with amount of time since HS

 

[ThaliaNox]

Of course high school counts for EC's if someone's ~1 year out of high school and applying.

The deal with average applicant not using high school EC's has to do with amount of time since HS

You'd be suprised. Why does a non-trad get to count everything since high school, in that case? Many non-trads have a decade or more of life experiences to count. Even folks who graduate in three years often have trouble applying to med school because of lack of experiences since high school. I'm not saying that the "no high school activities" is an absolute rule, but most schools do not consider these activities, regardless of the age of the applicant. I don't agree with the policy, but it is what it is.

 

[Kiki2011]

I actually have been doing A LOT of volunteering and such in college since I haven't been working, so that is not a problem for me. I do, however, find myself asking the same questions that you guys are asking, which is "Can I do it?" But, I have excelled in all of my other classes, so I'm not going to convince myself that I'm not smart enough to get into medical school just because I had bad luck in one class, especially one that a lot of people struggle in. I was thinking that I would retake O Chem I and send that grade in with my transcripts, and also apply to the M.S. program and Eastern Virginia Medical School. I'm also caught between getting my psy.d in Clinical Psychology and going to medical school, so I think that the extra year of school will help me decide which route I want to take. EVMS also has a clinical psychology program, which is GREAT.

 

[zombymush]

Really, only 2 hours a night on Orgo? I remember back in sophomore year, every time I sit down with my orgo notes/textbook, I re-emerge from my desk 5 to 8 hours later. Maybe it's just because I like to take it slow... O_O;; haha.

 

[ThaliaNox]

Really, only 2 hours a night on Orgo? I remember back in sophomore year, every time I sit down with my orgo notes/textbook, I re-emerge from my desk 5 to 8 hours later. Maybe it's just because I like to take it slow... O_O;; haha.

I actually thought just this as well! 2 hours per night in a science class is not unusual at all. Classes where I got Bs I can remember studying for hours daily... If I'd been getting a D, I would have buried myself in the books.

To put this into perspective, I just spent like four hours studying for pharmacology, so it certainly doesn't stop in med school.

 

[foofish]

So, I graduated from high school in 2009 (WOOT) and will graduating from the University of Denver in 2011 with a B.A. in Psychology with a minor in Env. Science and Chemistry. Problem: I am trying to get into medical school with only 1 year worth of classes, none of which are science classes. My high school was a governor's school (focusing on Environmental Science), basically meaning that you have to apply, take a series of tests, and if you're lucky, get accepted. My governor's school allowed me to take strictly college classes for 3 years (through the local community college) and I came out with every pre-req for medical school completed EXCEPT for Organic Chemistry. I tried to take Organic Chemistry this year, and got a D- in one quarter, and had to drop the second quarter. I literally put in about 2 hours a night for the class, and even tried to find a tutor, but it just didn't click. I will be retaking both classes this summer. I won't be taking the MCAT until July, and I'm sure I'll do well on it. I got a 3.9 GPA first quarter, and REALLY low GPA due to my D- in Organic Chemistry and a C in Italian second quarter, and a 3.9 GPA again this quarter. My concern is that whatever medical school I apply to will think that I can't handle "real university classes" because I took most of my pre-reqs at my governor's school and couldn't even pass Organic Chemistry. All the classes on my transcripts so far are from my gen-ed classes and psych classes. I work in a research lab, volunteer at the hospital, and so much more. Are my chances of getting into medical going to be lowered by the fact that most of my science classes won't be taken until next year? Do you think that my age (I'll be 19 when I graduate) put off some medical schools? Would you guys suggest going into a pre-health certificate program or MS program in order to improve my credentials? I really don't want to do that, but do you believe I at least have a chance of matriculating into the class of 2011? (WOW I wrote a lot! Sorry)

Well, if you got a D- in the first actual university science class you took, that tells me that right now you *can't* handle "real university classes." You're retaking them this summer, but keep in mind many med schools prefer applicants not take prereq courses over the summer...specifically because there's not always taught by the regular faculty and are considered to be easier/less rigorous than fall/spring courses. Since the big question so far is whether you can handle university courses, doing well this summer wouldn't be as helpful as doing well in the fall/spring. Just a thought.

I'm also not sure how you're sure you'll do very well on the MCAT, particularly as it tests orgo and it's unclear to me whether or not you've already taken the other premed prereqs. (You say you've done all the other prereqs, but then you say you're taking all of your science classes next year and so far have only done gen eds and psych?) Trying to study for the MCAT and a retake of Orgo I&II at the same time also sounds like a set-up for disaster. It can be done, but it sound like part of the problem last time was that you didn't put enough time into studying...try not to make that mistake again.

In order to join the class of 2011, you need to start applying in a month or two...did you mean class of 2012? Many (if not all) med schools won't consider someone who has below a C in a premed prerq, so that will hurt your chances this round. <edit for me misreading the OP post>

I would check in with your premed advisor...some schools, like mine, frown against students taking their prereqs at a CC, which could also work against you in applying particularly with the stumble once you got to a 4-year university. The bias, be it deserved or not, against CC is about consistency in the quality/difficulty of courses, so not doing well at the university can raise the question of whether the As at CC were because of your own ability or because the course was easy. Taking more classes at your university and doing well in them can help eliminate that red flag.

Personally, I'd hold off on applying until you have a solid MCAT score and solid grades in the premed prereqs. But that's just me, and I would talk to your school's premed advisor who would be more familiar with your situation.

 

[ThaliaNox]

Also, do the high school courses transfer to your college transcript with letter grades or just as credit? This can significantly impact your gpa (and whether the prereqs you may/may not have taken in HS "count"). For instance, AP courses get counted as credits on college transcripts and do go on your AMCAS app, but since they don't convert to letter grades they do not go into your GPA and are generally not counted as premed prereq credit. Be careful that your HS classes actually do count in your GPA, otherwise your GPA is much lower with that D- than you think.

I agree with much of what you said, foofish, but this paragraph has a couple issues. The OP has stated that they took classes at a CC while in high school. Even if these classes did not transfer to her new university as GPA credits, her CC GPA still counts. Only AP classes taken during high school do not have a GPA attached to them, since they are classified as high school classes.

For example, I took a intro nursing class my junior year of high school as a dual-enrolled student at the local CC. The class did not transfer at all to my four year university, but the A I got in that class was calculated into my AMCAS GPA.

 

[foofish]

I agree with much of what you said, foofish, but this paragraph has a couple issues. The OP has stated that they took classes at a CC while in high school. Even if these classes did not transfer to her new university as GPA credits, her CC GPA still counts. Only AP classes taken during high school do not have a GPA attached to them, since they are classified as high school classes.

For example, I took a intro nursing class my junior year of high school as a dual-enrolled student at the local CC. The class did not transfer at all to my four year university, but the A I got in that class was calculated into my AMCAS GPA.

I agree that CC credits count, I just didn't see the OP explicitly state these were true CC courses...as I had said, I'm not familiar with the program, and was just asking whether these were true college courses since AP classes are also considered "college courses" (which is why you get credit) but not actually true college classes in the way a CC/university course is. Thanks for pointing that out.

In that case, the OP should still contact an advisor as adcoms often frown upon applicants taking all or most of their premed courses at a CC. For my school's adcom, taking all the prereqs at the CC would be a red flag (especially with the problem of getting a D- in orgo once the OP got to a university), but other schools might have more relaxed requirements so it may/may not be a problem elsewhere.

 

[Kiki2011]

Well, if you got a D- in the first actual university science class you took, that tells me that right now you *can't* handle "real university classes." You're retaking them this summer, but keep in mind many med schools prefer applicants not take prereq courses over the summer...specifically because there's not always taught by the regular faculty and are considered to be easier/less rigorous than fall/spring courses. Since the big question so far is whether you can handle university courses, doing well this summer wouldn't be as helpful as doing well in the fall/spring. Just a thought.

I'm also not sure how you're sure you'll do very well on the MCAT, particularly as it tests orgo and it's unclear to me whether or not you've already taken the other premed prereqs. (You say you've done all the other prereqs, but then you say you're taking all of your science classes next year and so far have only done gen eds and psych?) Trying to study for the MCAT and a retake of Orgo I&II at the same time also sounds like a set-up for disaster. It can be done, but it sound like part of the problem last time was that you didn't put enough time into studying...try not to make that mistake again.

In order to join the class of 2011, you need to start applying in a month or two...did you mean class of 2012? Many (if not all) med schools won't consider someone who has below a C in a premed prerq, so that will hurt your chances this round. <edit for me misreading the OP post>

I would check in with your premed advisor...some schools, like mine, frown against students taking their prereqs at a CC, which could also work against you in applying particularly with the stumble once you got to a 4-year university. The bias, be it deserved or not, against CC is about consistency in the quality/difficulty of courses, so not doing well at the university can raise the question of whether the As at CC were because of your own ability or because the course was easy. Taking more classes at your university and doing well in them can help eliminate that red flag.

Personally, I'd hold off on applying until you have a solid MCAT score and solid grades in the premed prereqs. But that's just me, and I would talk to your school's premed advisor who would be more familiar with your situation.

I don't think that my Organic Chemistry class would be an appropriate demonstration for how I would do in other science classes. I am not the only one that has struggled in the class. Again, I took all of my pre reqs in governor's school. Also again, I am an Environmental Science minor, and haven't started the classes for my minor yet, hence my taking many summer classes next year. I am also sure that I can handle medical school because governor's school was BRUTAL. They didn't care if you passed or failed, and it was up to you to get the material taught or fail. Another thing is that I don't think that studying 2 hours a day for a class that we attend less than 3 hours a week is not too little studying (especially for someone who is taking 20 quarter hours and trying to graduate 2 years early). I worked my butt off, and I know that I tried as hard as I possibly could. I'm not trying to sound defensive (I'm sure I do). I'm just trying to straighten some things out.

However, you wonderful people have convinced me to (sadly and realistically) put off medical school for another year. I will instead apply for the one year M.S. program at Eastern Virginia Medical School and hopefully improve my credentials and apply to EVMS the next year. Thank you!

 

[ThaliaNox]

I don't think that my Organic Chemistry class would be an appropriate demonstration for how I would do in other science classes. I am not the only one that has struggled in the class. Again, I took all of my pre reqs in governor's school. Also again, I am an Environmental Science minor, and haven't started the classes for my minor yet, hence my taking many summer classes next year. I am also sure that I can handle medical school because governor's school was BRUTAL. They didn't care if you passed or failed, and it was up to you to get the material taught or fail. Another thing is that I don't think that studying 2 hours a day for a class that we attend less than 3 hours a week is not too little studying (especially for someone who is taking 20 quarter hours and trying to graduate 2 years early). I worked my butt off, and I know that I tried as hard as I possibly could. I'm not trying to sound defensive (I'm sure I do). I'm just trying to straighten some things out.

However, you wonderful people have convinced me to (sadly and realistically) put off medical school for another year. I will instead apply for the one year M.S. program at Eastern Virginia Medical School and hopefully improve my credentials and apply to EVMS the next year. Thank you!

I wish you the best in the future! If you can get great grades in your future science classes, you can prove that you do have what it takes and that your D in organic was a fluke, not because you can't handle college classes.

 

[runawayclock]

Not to sound harsh but:

1.

I don't think that my Organic Chemistry class would be an appropriate demonstration for how I would do in other science classes. I am not the only one that has struggled in the class.

This is true of ANY science course. Orgchem is difficult, but not especially so.

2.

Again, I took all of my pre reqs in governor's school. [...] I am also sure that I can handle medical school because governor's school was BRUTAL. They didn't care if you passed or failed, and it was up to you to get the material taught or fail.

I'm not really familiar with what a governor's school is, and if the adcom isn't either, this will not really mean much. They didn't care if you passed or failed? Welcome to 90% of 800-people college classes. That's not brutal, that's just what happens.

But OP, you sound way more motivated and focused than I was when I started college. Good luck on the rest of your courses! I'm sure when you do apply, you'll get in.

 

[Kiki2011]

I wish you the best in the future! If you can get great grades in your future science classes, you can prove that you do have what it takes and that your D in organic was a fluke, not because you can't handle college classes.

Not to sound harsh but:

1.

This is true of ANY science course. Orgchem is difficult, but not especially so.

2.

I'm not really familiar with what a governor's school is, and if the adcom isn't either, this will not really mean much. They didn't care if you passed or failed? Welcome to 90% of 800-people college classes. That's not brutal, that's just what happens.

But OP, you sound way more motivated and focused than I was when I started college. Good luck on the rest of your courses! I'm sure when you do apply, you'll get in.

Runawayclock, you didn't sound harsh, just straight-forward and not interested in sugar-coating things. I think that's something I needed to hear.
Thanks to both of you. I really appreciate everyone's advice on here that stopped me from making a huge mistake and rushing into something that shouldn't be rushed into. I wish everyone else the best of luck as well!

 

[foofish]

I don't think that my Organic Chemistry class would be an appropriate demonstration for how I would do in other science classes. I am not the only one that has struggled in the class. Again, I took all of my pre reqs in governor's school. Also again, I am an Environmental Science minor, and haven't started the classes for my minor yet, hence my taking many summer classes next year. I am also sure that I can handle medical school because governor's school was BRUTAL. They didn't care if you passed or failed, and it was up to you to get the material taught or fail. Another thing is that I don't think that studying 2 hours a day for a class that we attend less than 3 hours a week is not too little studying (especially for someone who is taking 20 quarter hours and trying to graduate 2 years early). I worked my butt off, and I know that I tried as hard as I possibly could. I'm not trying to sound defensive (I'm sure I do). I'm just trying to straighten some things out.

However, you wonderful people have convinced me to (sadly and realistically) put off medical school for another year. I will instead apply for the one year M.S. program at Eastern Virginia Medical School and hopefully improve my credentials and apply to EVMS the next year. Thank you!

I just really meant that with the Orgo grades that's how it appears, not necessarily that it's 100% true. The transition to college can be tough, and it might just be that you picked the wrong class to start out with. That said, yes, plenty of people struggle with orgo, but plenty of people also do well...there's a reason orgo is known as the "weed out" class for med school hopefuls.

I think you're making a sound decision. Keep doing well, rock orgo the next time you take it and do well on the MCAT...all that will help adcoms believe that the orgo grade was just a fluke and not a true predictor of your abilities. Good luck!