Will poor performance from > a decade ago ruin allo chances based on GPA filters?

[TPappy]

Hi All,

Word wall, sorry, but I feel framing the question may help with peoples answers/input.

I have one of those common stories seen in the non-trad students. Long story short, I barely graduated high school (had to graduate from an alternative one in fact, mostly because I physically didn't show up to high school) and when I started off at a community college just after that my performance was excessively bad. Multiple F's, mostly in math courses which HURT my BCPM GPA. That is why I look much better for DO on account of it being BCP only. Anyway...

That was over a decade ago, I am 30 now. Shortly after CC, I transferred to a 4 year state university that is well known around here. I did very well there, got a degree in finance, graduated with honors (cum laude with 3.50 dead). The last 5-ish terms were all 3.8+ with presidents honor roll each time. I had straight A's in two and a half of mandarin courses as well. I learned how to learn, and I picked up steam as I went. I graduated with a job offer from a finance company, hated it, went to work shortly after as a business analyst for a healthcare company, and have been here for about 4 years. Made great connections with physicians, have solid volunteer and shadowing hours, and I will have great LORs from docs that I have worked with closely for years who are prominent in my area.

I recently, about 9 months ago, came back to my dream of being a physician. I happened to start that right when my son was born. Impeccably terrible timing obviously, but I have managed to balance work, home and school. I have a 4.0 so far in the Bio & Gen Chem I-II-III sequences and all the labs as well. However, the very bad performance from my late teens is hurting me now in my 30's in terms of my BCPM GPA. Over time I grew more mature and just taught myself how to learn and study and gained an appreciation for education, which I never had when I was young for a litany of reasons. No-one in my family before me had even graduated college, they tried to talk me out of college actually.

Anyway, that is a bit of backstory. Now to the essence of my question.

I know that I am not the same buffoon I was back then, and I bet that adcoms will see that. But will they even have the chance to see it? By that I mean, will software screening programs in MD applications automatically wipe me out of the pool on account of that drag on my GPA from the past?

Looking at my 4-year university undergrad (3.50-GPA) and my post-bacc (4.0-GPA so far), I would be a great candidate for most any med school. But, including 11 year old CC grades, my BCPM gpa would in the end likely be below 3.0, solely on account of pre-req maths in a community college. My BCP GPA is so far 4.0.

Thanks for making it this far all, appreciate the thoughts/time.

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[Unico]

It was my understanding that classes older than 10 years were not considered, but the seniors on this board will clarify that undoubtedly.

I had a similar story: bad high school grades, poor college grades, got a life and learned a lot from the school of hard knocks, went back to college and killed it. You have a shot, but the most important thing now is to focus on scoring high on the MCAT. If you're serious about medical school, invest in an MCAT program (or even better, private tutoring). There will be sticker shock, get used to it (medical school is not cheap).

One foot in front of the other

 

[DBC03]

Hi All,

Word wall, sorry, but I feel framing the question may help with peoples answers/input.

I have one of those common stories seen in the non-trad students. Long story short, I barely graduated high school (had to graduate from an alternative one in fact, mostly because I physically didn't show up to high school) and when I started off at a community college just after that my performance was excessively bad. Multiple F's, mostly in math courses which HURT my BCPM GPA. That is why I look much better for DO on account of it being BCP only. Anyway...

That was over a decade ago, I am 30 now. Shortly after CC, I transferred to a 4 year state university that is well known around here. I did very well there, got a degree in finance, graduated with honors (cum laude with 3.50 dead). The last 5-ish terms were all 3.8+ with presidents honor roll each time. I had straight A's in two and a half of mandarin courses as well. I learned how to learn, and I picked up steam as I went. I graduated with a job offer from a finance company, hated it, went to work shortly after as a business analyst for a healthcare company, and have been here for about 4 years. Made great connections with physicians, have solid volunteer and shadowing hours, and I will have great LORs from docs that I have worked with closely for years who are prominent in my area.

I recently, about 9 months ago, came back to my dream of being a physician. I happened to start that right when my son was born. Impeccably terrible timing obviously, but I have managed to balance work, home and school. I have a 4.0 so far in the Bio & Gen Chem I-II-III sequences and all the labs as well. However, the very bad performance from my late teens is hurting me now in my 30's in terms of my BCPM GPA. Over time I grew more mature and just taught myself how to learn and study and gained an appreciation for education, which I never had when I was young for a litany of reasons. No-one in my family before me had even graduated college, they tried to talk me out of college actually.

Anyway, that is a bit of backstory. Now to the essence of my question.

I know that I am not the same buffoon I was back then, and I bet that adcoms will see that. But will they even have the chance to see it? By that I mean, will software screening programs in MD applications automatically wipe me out of the pool on account of that drag on my GPA from the past?

Looking at my 4-year university undergrad (3.50-GPA) and my post-bacc (4.0-GPA so far), I would be a great candidate for most any med school. But, including 11 year old CC grades, my BCPM gpa would in the end likely be below 3.0, solely on account of pre-req maths in a community college. My BCP GPA is so far 4.0.

Thanks for making it this far all, appreciate the thoughts/time.

I'm feeling your pain and I had only one year of bad grades. I could take another four years with 4.0 and only raise my GPA by about .25

I'd love to hear that they just completely disregard old grades, but I'm not sure how it really works. My guess is that it depends on the medical school. I am only applying allo, but my advisor seemed very concerned about a D I received in linear algebra back in 2000. And now she's head of admissions at a very well-respected medical school. I haven't contacted her since she changed positions, but I might reach out and just test the waters. It seemed she was more concerned that other schools would be concerned, so I cannot say how she would view that grade now in the light of my post-bac experience.

Again, my guess is that it varies by school. Some schools will heavily weight your newer grades while others may consider the entire package.

At least your GPA continued to go up!

 

[xffan624]

Hi All,

Word wall, sorry, but I feel framing the question may help with peoples answers/input.

I have one of those common stories seen in the non-trad students. Long story short, I barely graduated high school (had to graduate from an alternative one in fact, mostly because I physically didn't show up to high school) and when I started off at a community college just after that my performance was excessively bad. Multiple F's, mostly in math courses which HURT my BCPM GPA. That is why I look much better for DO on account of it being BCP only. Anyway...

That was over a decade ago, I am 30 now. Shortly after CC, I transferred to a 4 year state university that is well known around here. I did very well there, got a degree in finance, graduated with honors (cum laude with 3.50 dead). The last 5-ish terms were all 3.8+ with presidents honor roll each time. I had straight A's in two and a half of mandarin courses as well. I learned how to learn, and I picked up steam as I went. I graduated with a job offer from a finance company, hated it, went to work shortly after as a business analyst for a healthcare company, and have been here for about 4 years. Made great connections with physicians, have solid volunteer and shadowing hours, and I will have great LORs from docs that I have worked with closely for years who are prominent in my area.

I recently, about 9 months ago, came back to my dream of being a physician. I happened to start that right when my son was born. Impeccably terrible timing obviously, but I have managed to balance work, home and school. I have a 4.0 so far in the Bio & Gen Chem I-II-III sequences and all the labs as well. However, the very bad performance from my late teens is hurting me now in my 30's in terms of my BCPM GPA. Over time I grew more mature and just taught myself how to learn and study and gained an appreciation for education, which I never had when I was young for a litany of reasons. No-one in my family before me had even graduated college, they tried to talk me out of college actually.

Anyway, that is a bit of backstory. Now to the essence of my question.

I know that I am not the same buffoon I was back then, and I bet that adcoms will see that. But will they even have the chance to see it? By that I mean, will software screening programs in MD applications automatically wipe me out of the pool on account of that drag on my GPA from the past?

Looking at my 4-year university undergrad (3.50-GPA) and my post-bacc (4.0-GPA so far), I would be a great candidate for most any med school. But, including 11 year old CC grades, my BCPM gpa would in the end likely be below 3.0, solely on account of pre-req maths in a community college. My BCP GPA is so far 4.0.

Thanks for making it this far all, appreciate the thoughts/time.

What is your uGPA including the older grades?

Grades do not expire and they will be calculated in the total unless you participate in a very specific Texas based program.

 

[gyngyn]

It was my understanding that classes older than 10 years were not considered, but the seniors on this board will clarify that undoubtedly.

No, all grades are considered.
TX allows a "fresh start" for their IS applicants.
There have been schools that consider the last "x" hours (MI, AZ), esp. for IS applicants.
Almost all schools do look at trend.
Many schools have a numerical cut-off.

 

[TPappy]

What is your uGPA including the older grades?

Grades do not expire and they will be calculated in the total unless you participate in a very specific Texas based program.

I am not 100% sure on how AAMC calculates it, I made an excel calculator based on what I found. Here is the gist:

CC - 2006-2007-ish - 56 credit hours: 2.31gpa
4-Year Uni 2009-2013 - 105 credit hours- : 3.50gpa
Post-Bacc 2016 to present - 50 credit hours: 4.0gpa

Cum. Overall GPA - 3.30
Cum. BCP - 4.0
Cum. BCPM - 3.09

If you look only at 4-year university and post bacc stats would be:

Cum. Overall GPA - 3.66
Cum. BCP - 4.0
Cum. BCPM - 4.0

Hurts to read that as I type it. Being an idiot at 19 ruined things for me as an adult at 30.

To me, it looks like I should only apply DO. Why waste the money on MD apps, even in state, if math 080/089/090/095/103 at a community college wrecked my BCPM.

 

[TPappy]

No, all grades are considered.
TX allows a "fresh start" for their IS applicants.
There have been schools that consider the last "x" hours (MI, AZ), esp. for IS applicants.
Almost all schools do look at trend.
Many schools have a numerical cut-off.

Thank you gyngyn - followup question, when you say especially for in-state for those MI/AZ schools, does that mean only for IS applicants? Is that decided upon on a case by case basis?

I posted my grades from the past above, could you maybe give me your input on how I would look based on those? Will I get hard filtered out at some allopathic schools based on my BCPM gpa that includes those old CC grades?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you gyngyn - followup question, when you say especially for in-state for those MI/AZ schools, does that mean only for IS applicants? Is that decided upon on a case by case basis?

I posted my grades from the past above, could you maybe give me your input on how I would look based on those? Will I get hard filtered out at some allopathic schools based on my BCPM gpa that includes those old CC grades?

Focused gpa is a characteristic of some public schools for IS applicants.

Trend review is a common characteristic, though.

 

[xffan624]

Thank you gyngyn - followup question, when you say especially for in-state for those MI/AZ schools, does that mean only for IS applicants? Is that decided upon on a case by case basis?

I posted my grades from the past above, could you maybe give me your input on how I would look based on those? Will I get hard filtered out at some allopathic schools based on my BCPM gpa that includes those old CC grades?

Most schools don't cutoff at 3.3 so you will not get auto rejected. Whether you will get interviews and/or accepted depends on the quality of the rest of the application. A strong MCAT cannot completely overcome a weak GPA but it certainly helps along with a significant trend of improvement (which you have). After that, it's about crafting a coherent application that makes schools want to take you with the assurance that the academics are not a concern. First worry about rocking the MCAT and then decide whether you should eliminate MD schools from your list. A strong one will keep them in play.

 

[GreenDuck12]

I would be surprised if you are auto screened with a 3.3 cGPA but the 3.09 sGPA might be another story. Depending on your MCAT, I think you'd be a great candidate for osteopathic medical schools. That being said, If I were in your shoes, I would apply to a mix of osteopathic and allopathic programs (depending on MCAT). Who knows; perhaps you will impress someone on the committee. While numbers are important, it is only part of the equation.

Best of luck to you.

I am not 100% sure on how AAMC calculates it, I made an excel calculator based on what I found. Here is the gist:

CC - 2006-2007-ish - 56 credit hours: 2.31gpa
4-Year Uni 2009-2013 - 105 credit hours- : 3.50gpa
Post-Bacc 2016 to present - 50 credit hours: 4.0gpa

Cum. Overall GPA - 3.30
Cum. BCP - 4.0
Cum. BCPM - 3.09

If you look only at 4-year university and post bacc stats would be:

Cum. Overall GPA - 3.66
Cum. BCP - 4.0
Cum. BCPM - 4.0

Hurts to read that as I type it. Being an idiot at 19 ruined things for me as an adult at 30.

To me, it looks like I should only apply DO. Why waste the money on MD apps, even in state, if math 080/089/090/095/103 at a community college wrecked my BCPM.

 

[RocuROMANium]

I am in a similar boat as you except for I am way worse off. If over 60 credit hours I average a GPA of 3.87 I can raise my cGPA to a 3.0. This is quite a daunting task, but necessary, and because of this I got extremely worried about autoscreens. As impressive as it would be to average a GPA of at least 3.87 or higher over 60 credits it still wouldn't make a difference if medical schools had autoscreens higher than 3.0. I even mentioned this in another thread and an SDN member who has successfully beaten the odds to get into medical school told me to go to medical school websites and read the requirements while analyzing the language to see if that particular school autoscreens. For example, if Harvard says that having a cGPA of 3.2 or higher is a MINIMUM requirement then they most likely have an autoscreen for GPA's less than 3.2. Another example, Emory has a minimum requirement of 500 or greater on the MCAT so if your MCAT is less than 500 Emory will screen you out without looking at anything else on your application. To be honest, this does sound like common sense.

So I have gone to approximately 50 different medical school websites (using MSAR) and searched for these supposed autoscreens. I found that most schools truly do use a "Holistic" review process meaning that regardless of your numerical scores they will take your application into consideration. In fact, a lot of schools specifically write that they do not autoscreen. Of the 50 medical schools I looked into only 10 had autoscreens, most of them being a minimum cGPA of 3.0 or some low MCAT score of 500 or less. As a result, you would be just fine if this is all true (and fine equals not getting autoscreened which definitely doesn't mean fine like getting interviewed or accepted) *Disclaimer* of course this is all considering that these medical schools truly don't autoscreen if they don't write minimum requirements on their site. I have no proof that this is all accurate but it does make logical sense from all of the research I have done and all of the people I have talked to.

 

[TPappy]

I am in a similar boat as you except for I am way worse off. If over 60 credit hours I average a GPA of 3.87 I can raise my cGPA to a 3.0. This is quite a daunting task, but necessary, and because of this I got extremely worried about autoscreens. As impressive as it would be to average a GPA of at least 3.87 or higher over 60 credits it still wouldn't make a difference if medical schools had autoscreens higher than 3.0. I even mentioned this in another thread and an SDN member who has successfully beaten the odds to get into medical school told me to go to medical school websites and read the requirements while analyzing the language to see if that particular school autoscreens. For example, if Harvard says that having a cGPA of 3.2 or higher is a MINIMUM requirement then they most likely have an autoscreen for GPA's less than 3.2. Another example, Emory has a minimum requirement of 500 or greater on the MCAT so if your MCAT is less than 500 Emory will screen you out without looking at anything else on your application. To be honest, this does sound like common sense.

So I have gone to approximately 50 different medical school websites (using MSAR) and searched for these supposed autoscreens. I found that most schools truly do use a "Holistic" review process meaning that regardless of your numerical scores they will take your application into consideration. In fact, a lot of schools specifically write that they do not autoscreen. Of the 50 medical schools I looked into only 10 had autoscreens, most of them being a minimum cGPA of 3.0 or some low MCAT score of 500 or less. As a result, you would be just fine if this is all true (and fine equals not getting autoscreened which definitely doesn't mean fine like getting interviewed or accepted) *Disclaimer* of course this is all considering that these medical schools truly don't autoscreen if they don't write minimum requirements on their site. I have no proof that this is all accurate but it does make logical sense from all of the research I have done and all of the people I have talked to.

First off, I feel you on the struggle. It's hard, but it sounds like you are dedicated, so that is awesome.

Second, that you for all that information, and it does make logical sense to me as well. I hope that for our sake that our apps get to people who have a good eye. It is hard for them I am sure, since there are so many stellar applicants out there.

As an aside, I saw your username, I am very allergic to dilaudid haha. Just throwing that out there as a non-sequitur.

I hope you can do well. Have you looked into SMPs much? I am still just starting to look into them to see if they are appropriate for my situation.

 

[RocuROMANium]

First off, I feel you on the struggle. It's hard, but it sounds like you are dedicated, so that is awesome.

Second, that you for all that information, and it does make logical sense to me as well. I hope that for our sake that our apps get to people who have a good eye. It is hard for them I am sure, since there are so many stellar applicants out there.

As an aside, I saw your username, I am very allergic to dilaudid haha. Just throwing that out there as a non-sequitur.

I hope you can do well. Have you looked into SMPs much? I am still just starting to look into them to see if they are appropriate for my situation.

Haha well I hope you never need it anyways because that usually means you're in a ton of pain. SMP's are used as a last result so my plan A is to get my GPA to a 3.0 and do well on the MCAT. Plan B is I would do a year of SMP after that. IMO I think you have "proven that the you of now is not the the you of the past" as Goro would say regarding GPA so, after you finish most or all of your pre-reqs, you should take the MCAT when your practice scores are greater than or equal to 510. A score of 515 is safe but I have no idea of what your capabilities are for standardized exams.

 

[TPappy]

Focused gpa is a characteristic of some public schools for IS applicants.

Trend review is a common characteristic, though.

One last question, gyngyn, perhaps you know...

There is something at my old community college that allows me to set aside past grades, IE the grade remains on the transcript, but they will not include it in calculating my GPA for that term. To your knowledge, does AMCAS use the GPA on the schools transcript, because that will change, or do they calculate it on their own? Does that make sense?

For reference, I was in a bad accident in CC, I was in a coma for a short time, and had a pretty moderate-severe TBI that had some effects I still have to work around/with to this day.

 

[DBC03]

One last question, gyngyn, perhaps you know...

There is something at my old community college that allows me to set aside past grades, IE the grade remains on the transcript, but they will not include it in calculating my GPA for that term. To your knowledge, does AMCAS use the GPA on the schools transcript, because that will change, or do they calculate it on their own? Does that make sense?

For reference, I was in a bad accident in CC, I was in a coma for a short time, and had a pretty moderate-severe TBI that had some effects I still have to work around/with to this day.

Oh, how I wish they used the school one! I'm pretty sure they calculate it - you just provide the grades. And if you have grade forgiveness (ie you took the course a second time and they replaced the grade - not sure if that is what you're talking about) you have to provide both grades. I have some friends who are happy about grade forgiveness, but I don't think they realize this rule. Sometimes I wish my school let me do that. On the other hand, I can't imagine taking linear algebra a second time (I got a D).

Bummer about the accident. That is something that is incredibly difficult to get past.

 

[TPappy]

Oh, how I wish they used the school one! I'm pretty sure they calculate it - you just provide the grades. And if you have grade forgiveness (ie you took the course a second time and they replaced the grade - not sure if that is what you're talking about) you have to provide both grades. I have some friends who are happy about grade forgiveness, but I don't think they realize this rule. Sometimes I wish my school let me do that. On the other hand, I can't imagine taking linear algebra a second time (I got a D).

Bummer about the accident. That is something that is incredibly difficult to get past.

BLEH. Damn. I figured as much, I will always include the grades, but was hoping that would help some. Essentially the school looks at circumstances, like the accident, and just doesn't use it to calculate your GPA anymore. Not technically grade replacement per se.

It was hard to get past. It was an odd inflection point for me though, I started to become a better and more serious student at that point. You can actually see my upward trend start just after recovery. The issues that persist now aren't debilitating like some people have, nothing severe, but mildly frustrating more than anything.

 

[gyngyn]

One last question, gyngyn, perhaps you know...

There is something at my old community college that allows me to set aside past grades, IE the grade remains on the transcript, but they will not include it in calculating my GPA for that term. To your knowledge, does AMCAS use the GPA on the schools transcript, because that will change, or do they calculate it on their own? Does that make sense?

For reference, I was in a bad accident in CC, I was in a coma for a short time, and had a pretty moderate-severe TBI that had some effects I still have to work around/with to this day.

AMCAS includes all grades, even if the school calculates them differently.
You can contact your school to see if they will withdraw you post hoc.

 

[libertyyne]

Your mcat performance and quality of the rest of your app will be the determining factor here. If you hail from a lucky state I don't see why a 3.3 with a strong MCAT would not make the cut.

 

[Gauss44]

For which medical schools would grades from a decade ago matter least? My recollection is that there were a few that would recalculate GPA for even out of state applicants. Yes, this info. is probably in the MSAR and on their website, but if you wanted to check every US medical school, looking up every single one would be a huge undertaking. So, maybe it would be better if you know of one to just say what it is? I think University of Washington was one. Not sure if it still is. Not sure what other restrictions they have. What other schools?

 

[kraskadva]

@TPappy
Search around here for @Goro 's list of schools that reward reinvention - with some personalization it worked out pretty well for me.
Also look up the AMCAS GPA calculator that's floating around here (an excel sheet, prob similar to what you made) or go on the AAMC website and make sure yours is correct. It's not a secret how they calculate grades, most folks just don't bother to go read it on their website.
No grades are ignored in the calculations, but some schools may choose to disregard the past. Many will not. When you look in the MSAR for individual schools, eyeball the 10th percentiles as much as the medians for GPA and MCAT. If your numbers are between those two points, then you have a shot.

n=1, but I started out with a whole degree at 2.6, did a whole 'nother a decade later at 3.9 and managed to only get my cGPA to 3.1 (below everybody's 10th %ile). Still got 2 acceptances this cycle (1MD, 1DO) + a MD waitlist.
So it's possible, but it takes a carefully crafted application and more to boast of then just a bump in grades. Make sure you have all the boxes checked (shadowing, volunteering, solid essays, etc.), in addition to whatever non-trad mojo you bring to the table.
Best of luck.

 

[Goro]

@TPappy
Search around here for @Goro 's list of schools that reward reinvention - with some personalization it worked out pretty well for me.
Also look up the AMCAS GPA calculator that's floating around here (an excel sheet, prob similar to what you made) or go on the AAMC website and make sure yours is correct. It's not a secret how they calculate grades, most folks just don't bother to go read it on their website.
No grades are ignored in the calculations, but some schools may choose to disregard the past. Many will not. When you look in the MSAR for individual schools, eyeball the 10th percentiles as much as the medians for GPA and MCAT. If your numbers are between those two points, then you have a shot.

n=1, but I started out with a whole degree at 2.6, did a whole 'nother a decade later at 3.9 and managed to only get my cGPA to 3.1 (below everybody's 10th %ile). Still got 2 acceptances this cycle (1MD, 1DO) + a MD waitlist.
So it's possible, but it takes a carefully crafted application and more to boast of then just a bump in grades. Make sure you have all the boxes checked (shadowing, volunteering, solid essays, etc.), in addition to whatever non-trad mojo you bring to the table.
Best of luck.

Can you share where you got your IIs and accepts? It always helps to know who is rewarding reinvention. PM me, please!