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Guess which group of people, presumably because of a moral rather practical objection, has a much higher % of people who oppose private employers or the ACA getting an exemption for covering birth control for female employees?

You can be insulted all you want, but the facts and the polling are what they are.


You wrote: "I don’t think that people who are conservative understand the societal implications if people don’t have access to BC and abortionS..."

It is insulting. I also think that you are wrong. Conservatives understand the implications quite well. They just choose to prioritize other things in the abortion debate. BTW, I am very pro-choice and donate to lots of pro-choice organizations.

Too many people on both sides of this and other issues demonize or infantilize people who disagree with them.
 
Except not.

i can guarantee you that @sb247 knows the data about easy access to cheap/free birth control as well as any of us here. That's not going to make him change his mind about it being one of the mandatory coverage parts of the ACA.

I'm reasonably conservative (sometimes) and I'm fully aware of the statistics regarding birth control and economics.

That's even worse. If you fully understand the societal implications of making contraception more inaccessible (unsafe abortions cause 47,000 deaths and 5 million hospitalizations worldwide) and still oppose it, then you're either a fool, a sociopath, or both.

You wrote: "I don’t think that people who are conservative understand the societal implications if people don’t have access to BC and abortionS..."

It is insulting. I also think that you are wrong. Conservatives understand the implications quite well. They just choose to prioritize other things in the abortion debate. BTW, I am very pro-choice and donate to lots of pro-choice organizations.

Too many people on both sides of this and other issues demonize or infantilize people who disagree with them.

Not that I necessarily disagree but I didn't write the bolded portion. AMEhigh did
 
Again, understanding the data doesn't mean you have to agree that insurance should be required to pay for birth control.

I didn't mention anything about insurance paying for birth control, didn't see you mention that in your response to me, so not sure where that came from.
I'm actually off to give a lecture on contraception this afternoon 🙂
 
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That's even worse. If you fully understand the societal implications of relatively inaccessible contraception (unsafe abortions cause 47,000 deaths and 5 million hospitalizations worldwide) and still oppose it, then you're either a fool, a sociopath, or both.



I didn't write the bolded portion. AMEhigh did


So, in your opinion it is impossible for a person of intelligence, education, good intentions, who is completely or almost completely antichoice to exist who is not a sociopath?
 
So, in your opinion it is impossible for a person of intelligence, education, good intentions, who is completely or almost completely antichoice to exist who is not a sociopath?

No one here is anti-choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So, in your opinion it is impossible for a person of intelligence, education, good intentions, who is completely or almost completely antichoice to exist who is not a sociopath?

The topic at hand just now is contraception. Even if you are anti-abortion, being anti-contraception (or more specifically, thinking that male and female reproductive health/contraception shouldn't be part of health insurance) is incredibly stupid or incredibly sociopathic given the societal damage lack of contraception causes, at least in my opinion.
 
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That's even worse. If you fully understand the societal implications of making contraception more inaccessible (unsafe abortions cause 47,000 deaths and 5 million hospitalizations worldwide) and still oppose it, then you're either a fool, a sociopath, or both.
Every “safe” abortion causes a death, elective abortions should be illegal
 
The topic at hand just now is contraception. Even if you are anti-abortion, being anti-contraception (or more specifically, thinking that male and female reproductive health/contraception shouldn't be part of health insurance) is incredibly stupid or incredibly sociopathic given the societal damage lack of contraception causes, at least in my opinion.

Or incredibly pro “free market”, the govt shouldn’t be dictating coverage terms
 
Every “safe” abortion causes a death, elective abortions should be illegal

Do you think birth control and other forms of contraception should be widely available/reasonably priced/covered by health insurance as to avoid women having unintended pregnancies and seeking abortions in the first place?
 
The topic at hand just now is contraception. Even if you are anti-abortion, being anti-contraception (or more specifically, thinking that male and female reproductive health/contraception shouldn't be part of health insurance) is incredibly stupid or incredibly sociopathic given the societal damage lack of contraception causes, at least in my opinion.

Fair enough. I would grudgingly allow an exemption for faith based organizations to exclude them. Not the Hobby Lobbys and Chick-Fil-As of the world.
 
Or incredibly pro “free market”, the govt shouldn’t be dictating coverage terms

So in your opinion, government shouldn't dictate terms of health insurance but they should feel free to barge into the OB's office and get between a woman and her doctor. Got it.
 
Guess which group of people, presumably because of a moral rather practical objection, has a much higher % of people who oppose private employers or the ACA getting an exemption for covering birth control for female employees?

You can be insulted all you want, but the facts and the polling are what they are.
The govt sued nuns and amish people...nuns and amish people.

It’s the force of govt that people found offensive, an employer shouldn’t be forced to buy something for an employee that they don’t want to by govt
 
Fair enough. I would grudgingly allow an exemption for faith based organizations to exclude them. Not the Hobby Lobbys and Chick-Fil-As of the world.

People shouldn’t need to claim religion to have freedom of decision
 
The govt sued nuns and amish people...nuns and amish people.

It’s the force of govt that people found offensive, an employer shouldn’t be forced to buy something for an employee that they don’t want to by govt

Should an employer be forced to hire an otherwise qualified black person or a gay person if they don't want to?
 
Do you think birth control and other forms of contraception should be widely available/reasonably priced/covered by health insurance as to avoid women having unintended pregnancies and seeking abortions in the first place?
I think that’s a free market thing that doesn’t need govt intervention.

BC is already cheap
 
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Not by govt, I prefer to let the free market crush anyone any store acting like that. I certainly won’t shop there

Right. I'm sure the South would've just come around without the National Guard there to allow black students into universities.

I think that’s a free market thing that doesn’t need govt intervention.

BC is already cheap

At the very least, I'm a bit heartened that there's at least one part of women's reproductive health of which you don't think the government should be the third person in the doctor's office.
 
Freedoms can be limited or expanded all the time. That is what elections and three branches of government are for.
You seem to falsely equate govt doing something with “govt is appropriately doing something”
 
Right. I'm sure the South would've just come around without the National Guard there to allow black students into universities.

That was the govt discrimination which under no circumstances should be allowed or tolerated.

And yes, the free market absolutely would have solved that. The entire existence of jim crow laws was because the free market actually was willing to start integrating and racists wanted govt to stop them
 
That was the govt discrimination which under no circumstances should be allowed or tolerated.

And yes, the free market absolutely would have solved that. The entire existence of jim crow laws was because the free market actually was willing to start integrating and racists wanted govt to stop them

LMAO omg. Paging @pgg and @FFP to the thread: please tell me what reasonable libertarians believe about this issue.
 
I didn't mention anything about insurance paying for birth control, didn't see you mention that in your response to me, so not sure where that came from.
I'm actually off to give a lecture on contraception this afternoon 🙂
Fair enough, although "access to X" nowadays basically means "insurance must make it free" but that's not a universal truth.

So explain to me what you mean by access to birth control.
 
Castro almost has enough donors to be at the next debate, but the poll numbers still aren’t out. I hope he reaches the threshold. Is anyone else supporting him?
 
That's even worse. If you fully understand the societal implications of making contraception more inaccessible (unsafe abortions cause 47,000 deaths and 5 million hospitalizations worldwide) and still oppose it, then you're either a fool, a sociopath, or both.
Contraception is quite cheap, it doesn't need to be mandated that insurance cover the cost of it 100%
 
Contraception is quite cheap, it doesn't need to be mandated that insurance cover the cost of it 100%

It should be covered by insurance at some nominal copay, the same as any other cheap chronic medication.

You need to read up on how Plessy v. Ferguson got started

I'm familiar with the general details of the case. What does that have to do with modern libertarians?
 
The consititution was to specifically restrict the govt from limiting freedom, not justify it


There are multiple reasonable interpretations of the Constitution. For example, on Abortion, The Conservative Justices say that the words "abortion" and "privacy" do not appear in the Constitution, hence no Constitutional protection for Abortion.


The Liberals cite the Ninth Amendment (unenumerated rights). Also that the third amendment (Quartering troops in People's homes) fourth amendment (unreasonable search and seizure). fifth amendment (right to keep silent). That a right to privacy lives in these passages...from a right to privacy you get at least some control of your own body... Thus there is a Constitutional Protection for Abortion.

I got lots of lawyers in the family. You can Imagine what our Thanksgiving was like.
 
It should be covered by insurance at some nominal copay, the same as any other cheap chronic medication.



I'm familiar with the general details of the case. What does that have to do with modern libertarians?
No medicine “should” be required coverage regardless of cost
 
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Sorry dude but with a position like that your beliefs are utterly cartoonish, impractical, and irrelevant to any pertinent discussion of health insurance and associated coverage.
Like all things, insurance coverage should be market based. Customers decide if the cost is worth the coverage, that’s it
 
Fair enough, although "access to X" nowadays basically means "insurance must make it free" but that's not a universal truth.

So explain to me what you mean by access to birth control.

Other than condoms and spermicide right now you need a prescription for birth control (people are working on POPs being OTC) and obviously one can’t do a tubal or vasectomy on themselves. There are conservative institutions and doctors that won’t prescribe or do those procedures, thus patient’s don’t have access. Yes the Catholic Church is free to do whatever they want, but when they start taking over health care systems and patients have nowhere else to turn, especially when you add in the complication of insurance only having certain places be "in-network" it makes patient lives more difficult.

Yes I know that physicians and other medical providers and pharmacists should be able to write or not write whatever prescriptions they want and fill or not fill whatever prescriptions they want, but I think limiting that access which has shown to be beneficial for society as a whole is problematic.

Conservatives protest outside of healthcare centers all the time that provide reproductive healthcare yelling vile and horrific things at patients and medical staff. I know people will say that doesn’t reduce access, but I’ve definitely seen it have an impact.

And on another page someone asked about violence and threats and I linked the most recent reports about violence and threats at reproductive healthcare centers. The latest reports show it has increased in the past 2 years. Sometimes those centers have to close down or limit their hours or hire extra security. That all limits access.

So those are just a couple of examples.
 
So conservative leaning people are free to do whatever they think is best for themselves, but my problem is when that infringes on everyone/society as I gave in my examples above. I’m not forcing people to swallow birth control if they don’t want it and I don’t think I should refuse a birth control prescription if someone wants it (obviously assuming there are no contraindications), regardless of my personal feelings. Patients make medical decisions I don’t agree with pretty regularly, but as long as it’s a safe choice I don’t block them from that access by not writing a lisinopril prescription.
 
There are multiple reasonable interpretations of the Constitution. For example, on Abortion, The Conservative Justices say that the words "abortion" and "privacy" do not appear in the Constitution, hence no Constitutional protection for Abortion.


The Liberals cite the Ninth Amendment (unenumerated rights). Also that the third amendment (Quartering troops in People's homes) fourth amendment (unreasonable search and seizure). fifth amendment (right to keep silent). That a right to privacy lives in these passages...from a right to privacy you get at least some control of your own body... Thus there is a Constitutional Protection for Abortion.

I got lots of lawyers in the family. You can Imagine what our Thanksgiving was like.

Privacy is a circular argument for abortion. Even if you grant that the right to privacy exists, applying privacy to the discussion of pregnant woman vs fetus presupposes that the fetus isn’t a person.

I don’t know at what point products of conception become people but I don’t buy the privacy argument for abortion at all gestational ages. It’s hard to argue that a blastocyst is a person but it’s even harder to argue that a viable fetus is not.
 
I'm familiar with the general details of the case. What does that have to do with modern libertarians?
The government (SCOTUS) upheld segregation that a committee of citizens wanted to get rid of. The government, from the state of Louisiana all the way to the SCOTUS, was in the wrong and upheld the injustice.
 
Privacy is a circular argument for abortion. Even if you grant that the right to privacy exists, applying privacy to the discussion of pregnant woman vs fetus presupposes that the fetus isn’t a person.

That is exactly what what seven Supreme court justices found in 1973. At least for the first trimester.
 
Other than condoms and spermicide right now you need a prescription for birth control (people are working on POPs being OTC) and obviously one can’t do a tubal or vasectomy on themselves. There are conservative institutions and doctors that won’t prescribe or do those procedures, thus patient’s don’t have access. Yes the Catholic Church is free to do whatever they want, but when they start taking over health care systems and patients have nowhere else to turn, especially when you add in the complication of insurance only having certain places be "in-network" it makes patient lives more difficult.

Yes I know that physicians and other medical providers and pharmacists should be able to write or not write whatever prescriptions they want and fill or not fill whatever prescriptions they want, but I think limiting that access which has shown to be beneficial for society as a whole is problematic.

Conservatives protest outside of healthcare centers all the time that provide reproductive healthcare yelling vile and horrific things at patients and medical staff. I know people will say that doesn’t reduce access, but I’ve definitely seen it have an impact.

And on another page someone asked about violence and threats and I linked the most recent reports about violence and threats at reproductive healthcare centers. The latest reports show it has increased in the past 2 years. Sometimes those centers have to close down or limit their hours or hire extra security. That all limits access.

So those are just a couple of examples.
OK.

I think you'll find many conservatives are 100% OK with OCPs (and I'd include Nuvaring and the patch in that category) going OTC. I know I am, and I suspect SB is of a similar mind. That said, I think physician autonomy is vitally important outside of emergency situations and even though I routinely disagree with some of the nonsense I see other doctors doing the potential problems with forcing them to treat people in a way they disagree with is not at all worth it. I personally think that if you aren't OK with birth control you shouldn't, for example, go into a field where that shows up a lot (OB, FM, urology) but I am not OK with barring someone from that field because they don't want to participate in contraception.

I agree that the protesters outside PP and other places are incredibly distasteful and I too wish they would go away. But that's 1st amendment stuff right there and I am always very hesitant to put any restrictions on that. The violence is inexcusable and should be punished appropriately.
 
So conservative leaning people are free to do whatever they think is best for themselves, but my problem is when that infringes on everyone/society as I gave in my examples above. I’m not forcing people to swallow birth control if they don’t want it and I don’t think I should refuse a birth control prescription if someone wants it (obviously assuming there are no contraindications), regardless of my personal feelings. Patients make medical decisions I don’t agree with pretty regularly, but as long as it’s a safe choice I don’t block them from that access by not writing a lisinopril prescription.
And that's fine (I practice the same way, FWIW), but compelling doctors to practice against their conscience is very troubling.
 
The government (SCOTUS) upheld segregation that a committee of citizens wanted to get rid of. The government, from the state of Louisiana all the way to the SCOTUS, was in the wrong and upheld the injustice.

sb made the assertion (falsely, imo) that the "free market" would have somehow sorted out the injustices of the civil rights era. Similarly though, the Plessy v Ferguson decision did not come out of a vacuum. The government of LA, the US, the composition of SCOTUS, and indeed the "free market" of that time was a reflection of the majority's desires. The "free market" of essentially the whole nation at the turn of the century and most of the south in the civil rights era undoubtedly preferred the white majority having access to the best jobs, education, housing, medical care, and infrastructure of the respective times.

Like it or not, it took an external influence that limited the freedom of people to be racist to allow for the dissolution of Jim Crow and other policies that were unjust. The idea that the "free market" would've ended Jim Crow on its own is pure conjecture and likely fantasy.
 
Other than condoms and spermicide right now you need a prescription for birth control (people are working on POPs being OTC) and obviously one can’t do a tubal or vasectomy on themselves. There are conservative institutions and doctors that won’t prescribe or do those procedures, thus patient’s don’t have access. Yes the Catholic Church is free to do whatever they want, but when they start taking over health care systems and patients have nowhere else to turn, especially when you add in the complication of insurance only having certain places be "in-network" it makes patient lives more difficult.

Yes I know that physicians and other medical providers and pharmacists should be able to write or not write whatever prescriptions they want and fill or not fill whatever prescriptions they want, but I think limiting that access which has shown to be beneficial for society as a whole is problematic.

Conservatives protest outside of healthcare centers all the time that provide reproductive healthcare yelling vile and horrific things at patients and medical staff. I know people will say that doesn’t reduce access, but I’ve definitely seen it have an impact.

And on another page someone asked about violence and threats and I linked the most recent reports about violence and threats at reproductive healthcare centers. The latest reports show it has increased in the past 2 years. Sometimes those centers have to close down or limit their hours or hire extra security. That all limits access.

So those are just a couple of examples.
Just end certificate of need laws. The catholics can their thing amd so can anyone else
 
sb made the assertion (falsely, imo) that the "free market" would have somehow sorted out the injustices of the civil rights era. Similarly though, the Plessy v Ferguson decision did not come out of a vacuum. The government of LA, the US, the composition of SCOTUS, and indeed the "free market" of that time was a reflection of the majority's desires. The "free market" of essentially the whole nation at the turn of the century and most of the south in the civil rights era undoubtedly preferred the white majority having access to the best jobs, education, housing, medical care, and infrastructure of the respective times.

Like it or not, it took an external influence that limited the freedom of people to be racist to allow for the dissolution of Jim Crow and other policies that were unjust. The idea that the "free market" would've ended Jim Crow on its own is pure conjecture and likely fantasy.

Jim crow was a racist govt response to the people beginning to integrate on their own
 
sb made the assertion (falsely, imo) that the "free market" would have somehow sorted out the injustices of the civil rights era. Similarly though, the Plessy v Ferguson decision did not come out of a vacuum. The government of LA, the US, the composition of SCOTUS, and indeed the "free market" of that time was a reflection of the majority's desires. The "free market" of essentially the whole nation at the turn of the century and most of the south in the civil rights era undoubtedly preferred the white majority having access to the best jobs, education, housing, medical care, and infrastructure of the respective times.

Like it or not, it took an external influence that limited the freedom of people to be racist to allow for the dissolution of Jim Crow and other policies that were unjust. The idea that the "free market" would've ended Jim Crow on its own is pure conjecture and likely fantasy.
Its obviously conjecture as I don't possess a time machine to rewrite history and see what happens.

That said, I think you underestimate people. The CRA was passed because there was enough popular support to end segregation. It was passed when it was because of ever increasing support for doing that. I can't prove that segregation would have largely ended given enough time, but I feel pretty confident it would have become a minority viewpoint. There would still be white-only establishments (because some people will always be racist a-holes), but I feel pretty confident saying they would be in the minority.
 
Its obviously conjecture as I don't possess a time machine to rewrite history and see what happens.

That said, I think you underestimate people. The CRA was passed because there was enough popular support to end segregation. It was passed when it was because of ever increasing support for doing that. I can't prove that segregation would have largely ended given enough time, but I feel pretty confident it would have become a minority viewpoint. There would still be white-only establishments (because some people will always be racist a-holes), but I feel pretty confident saying they would be in the minority.

Somewhere in the vicinity of 30% of the House and Senate opposed the Civil Rights Act, and that's taking into account sympathy votes due to Kennedy being assassinated the year prior. While I am an optimist about people, my conjecture is that people only "came around" to desegregation after it was forced on them by the govt. Once whites were forced to interact with blacks in ways they never had to before, they realized that they were also just human beings. The same can be said of how society viewed gays and gay marriage. Once workplace protections started being strengthened in the late 90s and 00s, gay people essentially said "you know what, f you, I'm coming out and I don't care what you think," and seeing an out person became a commonplace affair in day to day society. Then finally, most people realized that gays are human beings just like anyone else.

Jim crow was a racist govt response to the people beginning to integrate on their own


------
The Libertarian Civil Rights Paradox
As the Republican Party descends into a white nationalist death-spiral, many longtime Republicans are scrambling to find alternatives. Meanwhile, the Libertarian Party has nominated two popular former Republican Governors to head a ticket that will compete in all 50 states.

Many longtime Republicans are eyeing the Libertarian ticket as a place to throw away an otherwise odious vote. Beyond this election, it might make sense for disillusioned Republicans to give the Libertarians a more serious look, but only after wrestling with some of the party’s more troubling problems.

Two major policy obstacles block Libertarians from mainstream credibility. The first is their refusal to grapple with real-world economics, waving an ‘invisible hand’ over every problem and declaring it fixed. Worse though is their strange civil rights conundrum. Paradoxically, the party of ‘liberty’ would tear down every protection against racial discrimination. Republicans troubled by their party’s white nationalism will find little relief among present-day Libertarians.

The long, sad decline of the Republican Party as the primary vehicle of black political expression corresponds closely to the rise of libertarian philosophy as a force inside the GOP. If a liberty-minded third party is going to rise as a challenger to the two major parties, it will first have to absorb some troubling lessons from the civil rights era.

Republicans began embracing libertarian ideas about a decade before the Libertarian Party was formed. Barry Goldwater embraced individual liberty as a paramount political value in the early ‘60’s. Libertarians formed a separate political party in the early 70’s when a small core of anti-war conservatives broke from the Soviet hawks over Vietnam, but the two movements never fully disentangled from each other.

To this day figures like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson move easily between Libertarian and Republican circles because the boundaries are muddy. The libertarian movement today is still the heir of the Goldwater Republicans. It was Goldwater who launched the Republican shift toward libertarianism and it was under Goldwater that libertarian thinking flunked its first big test of real-world effectiveness.

The proposed Civil Rights Act of 1964 presented libertarian philosophy with a wrenching choice. In theory, libertarians loathed racial discrimination, but breaking Jim Crow would demand a sweeping expansion of Federal power that would intervene deeply into private life. The dilemma was that African Americans’ repression rose not so much from government as from the culture, ignorance and bigotry of their white neighbors.

The Civil Rights Acts proposed to do something that libertarian ideology insisted was impossible –expand personal freedom by expanding central government power. Goldwater made a fateful decision to break from the core of the Republican Party and oppose the 1964 Civil Rights Act. His decision alienated the black community and shined a glaring light on a fatal weakness in libertarian theory.

Libertarianism protects personal liberty from being impaired by government. It creates weak states on the assumption that personal freedom will bloom in the absence of government intrusion.

The black experience is a living reminder that government is not alone as a potential threat to personal liberty. It is possible, as in the Jim Crow South, to build a government so weak that no one’s personal liberties can be protected.

The libertarianism Goldwater embraced had its eyes fixed firmly on Communism. In the fight against the tyranny of a totalitarian ideology, the right failed to recognize that tyranny can flourish under a weak state. Goldwater-era libertarians watched Medgar Evers’ funeral without recognizing small government oppression at work. They have never acknowledged that glitch.


The high-minded pursuit of personal freedom from government made Goldwater an accidental hero for segregationists. In the most noxious irony of the 1964 election, Goldwater as the standard-bearer of “personal liberty” earned the endorsement of segregationist Democrat Strom Thurmond and became the first Republican to win the Deep South since Reconstruction.

Goldwater’s awkward alliance with racists launched a troubling trend. By elevating ideology over experience, the party of Lincoln was forging a strange new path. Modern Republicans troubled by their party’s racism are eyeing the Libertarian Party as an alternative. Ironically, it was Republicans’ flirtation with libertarianism that destroyed our traditional role as a political outlet for minorities. It was libertarian policy and rhetoric that converted the South into a Republican stronghold.

A political platform built on “small government” works only when it is tempered by a respect for the very important role that good government plays in guaranteeing freedom. It might be possible to develop a libertarian platform that addresses the paradox of small government tyranny, but the first step is simply acknowledging the paradox.

Government intervention has been a critical component in the fight for civil rights. Many hard-working, successful African Americans got their start on the economic ladder with progressive hiring and promotion policies at the Post Office or other Federal agencies. Federal troops played a decisive role in desegregating public schools and universities in the South. It was a muscular, activist Federal government that gave African-Americans their first opportunities to participate in the American Dream. Sometimes, liberty needs government.

Extreme anti-government rhetoric devoid of nuance or constraint creates well-justified fear in minority communities. Libertarian values have historically failed them, leaving them exposed to terrifying oppression. Libertarians cannot continue to clumsily paint government as a fount of endless evil and hope to appeal to minority communities whose own family stories render that message hollow.

For libertarians to become an outlet for frustrated Republicans and Democrats, they must develop a more nuanced, realistic vision of small government. Smaller government may be a fine prescription for personal liberty and economic success, but only if it remains strong enough to protect basic civil rights.


--------------------
 
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OK.

I think you'll find many conservatives are 100% OK with OCPs (and I'd include Nuvaring and the patch in that category) going OTC. I know I am, and I suspect SB is of a similar mind. That said, I think physician autonomy is vitally important outside of emergency situations and even though I routinely disagree with some of the nonsense I see other doctors doing the potential problems with forcing them to treat people in a way they disagree with is not at all worth it. I personally think that if you aren't OK with birth control you shouldn't, for example, go into a field where that shows up a lot (OB, FM, urology) but I am not OK with barring someone from that field because they don't want to participate in contraception.

I agree that the protesters outside PP and other places are incredibly distasteful and I too wish they would go away. But that's 1st amendment stuff right there and I am always very hesitant to put any restrictions on that. The violence is inexcusable and should be punished appropriately.

Ok. You asked for examples and I provided them. I’m sorry if my post was offensive, I was only talking about conservatives that block access like in my example above (or other examples). These aren’t theoretical things, but things that are happening in people’s lives. So even if it’s 5% of conservatives (I honestly don’t know the number), those 5% are affecting people. Catholic hospitals are the main hospital in a lot of areas. Reproductive healthcare centers are shut down due to those views.

People don’t have a choice of which doctors and hospitals they go to. So I’m sure someone will argue that people don’t deserve healthcare but I think that’s extreme obviously. So access to birth control and abortion is certainly limited by people’s personal views which in my opinion is a disregard to society as a whole since reproductive choice statistically benefits society as a whole.

Adding: if there’s only 1 hospital in your community and you want a job as a physician you might be "forced" to work there. So if your employer doesn’t allow you to do vasectomies even if you want to that’s how access is limited.
 
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Ok. You asked for examples and I provided them. I’m sorry if my post was offensive, I was only talking about conservatives that block access like in my example above (or other examples). These aren’t theoretical things, but things that are happening in people’s lives. So even if it’s 5% of conservatives (I honestly don’t know the number), those 5% are affecting people. Catholic hospitals are the main hospital in a lot of areas. Reproductive healthcare centers are shut down due to those views.

People don’t have a choice of which doctors and hospitals they go to. So I’m sure someone will argue that people don’t deserve healthcare but I think that’s extreme obviously. So access to birth control and abortion is certainly limited by people’s personal views which in my opinion is a disregard to society as a whole since reproductive choice statistically benefits society as a whole.
People by and large absolutely have a choice of doctors (and, quite frequently, hospitals).

But that aside, if you'll recall this all started because you insultingly suggested that conservatives who oppose easy access to birth control/abortions don't understand the implications of restricting birth control. That is, at least to some extent, false.

The rest was discussing what you meant by easy access to which I personally agree with you but am unwilling to force any physician to act against their conscience. To do otherwise can have horrific consequences (not saying it has to, just that historically it has at various times).
 
Somewhere in the vicinity of 30% of the House and Senate opposed the Civil Rights Act, and that's taking into account sympathy votes due to Kennedy being assassinated the year prior. While I am an optimist about people, my conjecture is that people only "came around" to desegregation after it was forced on them by the govt. Once whites were forced to interact with blacks in ways they never had to before, they realized that they were also just human beings. The same can be said of how society viewed gays and gay marriage. Once workplace protections started being strengthened in the late 90s and 00s, gay people essentially said "you know what, f you, I'm coming out and I don't care what you think," and seeing an out person became a commonplace affair in day to day society. Then finally, most people realized that gays are human beings just like anyone else.
That's certainly possible, but again no way to be sure.

Well, except the number of states that don't have workplace protections for LGBT people. But acceptance has still grown markedly in those states.
 
Somewhere in the vicinity of 30% of the House and Senate opposed the Civil Rights Act, and that's taking into account sympathy votes due to Kennedy being assassinated the year prior. While I am an optimist about people, my conjecture is that people only "came around" to desegregation after it was forced on them by the govt. Once whites were forced to interact with blacks in ways they never had to before, they realized that they were also just human beings. The same can be said of how society viewed gays and gay marriage. Once workplace protections started being strengthened in the late 90s and 00s, gay people essentially said "you know what, f you, I'm coming out and I don't care what you think," and seeing an out person became a commonplace affair in day to day society. Then finally, most people realized that gays are human beings just like anyone else.




------
The Libertarian Civil Rights Paradox
As the Republican Party descends into a white nationalist death-spiral, many longtime Republicans are scrambling to find alternatives. Meanwhile, the Libertarian Party has nominated two popular former Republican Governors to head a ticket that will compete in all 50 states.

Many longtime Republicans are eyeing the Libertarian ticket as a place to throw away an otherwise odious vote. Beyond this election, it might make sense for disillusioned Republicans to give the Libertarians a more serious look, but only after wrestling with some of the party’s more troubling problems.

Two major policy obstacles block Libertarians from mainstream credibility. The first is their refusal to grapple with real-world economics, waving an ‘invisible hand’ over every problem and declaring it fixed. Worse though is their strange civil rights conundrum. Paradoxically, the party of ‘liberty’ would tear down every protection against racial discrimination. Republicans troubled by their party’s white nationalism will find little relief among present-day Libertarians.

The long, sad decline of the Republican Party as the primary vehicle of black political expression corresponds closely to the rise of libertarian philosophy as a force inside the GOP. If a liberty-minded third party is going to rise as a challenger to the two major parties, it will first have to absorb some troubling lessons from the civil rights era.

Republicans began embracing libertarian ideas about a decade before the Libertarian Party was formed. Barry Goldwater embraced individual liberty as a paramount political value in the early ‘60’s. Libertarians formed a separate political party in the early 70’s when a small core of anti-war conservatives broke from the Soviet hawks over Vietnam, but the two movements never fully disentangled from each other.

To this day figures like Ron Paul or Gary Johnson move easily between Libertarian and Republican circles because the boundaries are muddy. The libertarian movement today is still the heir of the Goldwater Republicans. It was Goldwater who launched the Republican shift toward libertarianism and it was under Goldwater that libertarian thinking flunked its first big test of real-world effectiveness.

The proposed Civil Rights Act of 1964 presented libertarian philosophy with a wrenching choice. In theory, libertarians loathed racial discrimination, but breaking Jim Crow would demand a sweeping expansion of Federal power that would intervene deeply into private life. The dilemma was that African Americans’ repression rose not so much from government as from the culture, ignorance and bigotry of their white neighbors.

The Civil Rights Acts proposed to do something that libertarian ideology insisted was impossible –expand personal freedom by expanding central government power. Goldwater made a fateful decision to break from the core of the Republican Party and oppose the 1964 Civil Rights Act. His decision alienated the black community and shined a glaring light on a fatal weakness in libertarian theory.

Libertarianism protects personal liberty from being impaired by government. It creates weak states on the assumption that personal freedom will bloom in the absence of government intrusion.

The black experience is a living reminder that government is not alone as a potential threat to personal liberty. It is possible, as in the Jim Crow South, to build a government so weak that no one’s personal liberties can be protected.

The libertarianism Goldwater embraced had its eyes fixed firmly on Communism. In the fight against the tyranny of a totalitarian ideology, the right failed to recognize that tyranny can flourish under a weak state. Goldwater-era libertarians watched Medgar Evers’ funeral without recognizing small government oppression at work. They have never acknowledged that glitch.


The high-minded pursuit of personal freedom from government made Goldwater an accidental hero for segregationists. In the most noxious irony of the 1964 election, Goldwater as the standard-bearer of “personal liberty” earned the endorsement of segregationist Democrat Strom Thurmond and became the first Republican to win the Deep South since Reconstruction.

Goldwater’s awkward alliance with racists launched a troubling trend. By elevating ideology over experience, the party of Lincoln was forging a strange new path. Modern Republicans troubled by their party’s racism are eyeing the Libertarian Party as an alternative. Ironically, it was Republicans’ flirtation with libertarianism that destroyed our traditional role as a political outlet for minorities. It was libertarian policy and rhetoric that converted the South into a Republican stronghold.

A political platform built on “small government” works only when it is tempered by a respect for the very important role that good government plays in guaranteeing freedom. It might be possible to develop a libertarian platform that addresses the paradox of small government tyranny, but the first step is simply acknowledging the paradox.

Government intervention has been a critical component in the fight for civil rights. Many hard-working, successful African Americans got their start on the economic ladder with progressive hiring and promotion policies at the Post Office or other Federal agencies. Federal troops played a decisive role in desegregating public schools and universities in the South. It was a muscular, activist Federal government that gave African-Americans their first opportunities to participate in the American Dream. Sometimes, liberty needs government.

Extreme anti-government rhetoric devoid of nuance or constraint creates well-justified fear in minority communities. Libertarian values have historically failed them, leaving them exposed to terrifying oppression. Libertarians cannot continue to clumsily paint government as a fount of endless evil and hope to appeal to minority communities whose own family stories render that message hollow.

For libertarians to become an outlet for frustrated Republicans and Democrats, they must develop a more nuanced, realistic vision of small government. Smaller government may be a fine prescription for personal liberty and economic success, but only if it remains strong enough to protect basic civil rights.


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Your article is crap, jim crow was the govt being racist and no libertarian that I know would be ok with that
 
That's certainly possible, but again no way to be sure.

Well, except the number of states that don't have workplace protections for LGBT people. But acceptance has still grown markedly in those states.

Depends on how much you want to quibble about the definition of markedly. TX and LA don't have state LGBT employment discrimination laws, but there's a big difference in cultural acceptance between Austin/New Orleans and rural East TX/Northwest LA. Obergefell vs. Hodges overturned a same-sex marriage ban that was still wildly popular in LA even in 2014-2015. And guess what, I'm sure in TX, LA, and other highly conservative places, people realized that the world wasn't going to spontaneously erupt in a fireball if a woman got a marriage certificate and held hands with her wife in public.
 
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