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Has anybody flipped and changed their mind since 2016? I don’t know a single person.
"To err is human, to persist in error is diabolical." (Seneca)Has anybody flipped and changed their mind since 2016? I don’t know a single person.
Compare the net worth of the Clintons and Obamas prior to presidency and after the presidency. How do they become ultra rich on a presidents salary?
Corrupt-anyone who reaches that level in any field has likely become somewhat corrupt in a purist sense. In that regard, he is no different. Shady business deals could likely be uncovered in his past. However, name any candidate and tell me they have not been corrupt in the past. Sadly, those are the ones who rise to the top. So, I will give you that one as likely having some truth to it. he is just like the people that he runs with and against. Washington is a dirty place. Those who completely comply with the rules get thrown out like yesterday's garbage.
You have basically said that anyone who is white and voted for Trump is a racist. Why is it that people who are liberal refuse to consider the possibility that there can exist a different opinion than their own, and frequently respond to those who differ with acts of violence?
Racist-I have not seen evidence of this existing more than in the general public, as noted above. When you really think about it, everyone is racist to some degree with their inherent biases based on a whole host of influences in their lives. We all struggle to minimize these biases, but they are still there.
I have never met a Trump supporter that believes he is without fault as you stated (likely hyperbole on your part, but still).
All candidates are flawed. Trump is a narcissist and I would never want to hang out with him. However, his stance on illegal immigrants is simply enforcing the same ideas that all presidents before him have publically stated and then backed down on. Illegal immigrants has the word illegal in the name. In addition, anti-semitism should not be tolerated by a sitting elected official. Him calling them out for their stances is supporting American ideals. He could always use some guidance in grace and etiquette and he has a tendency to be unfiltered. But I do not get the impression he is un-American. I suspect that, if you visited the war torn and corrupt countries that are run by radical muslims and drug lords, you may have the same opinion of those locations. Maybe you would choose to keep your opinions to yourself, but you have a President whose every word is recorded and broadcast, for better or worse. Sometimes, he broadcasts them himself through Twitter. I have done medical and humanitarian mission work in many impoverished countries. I like helping the impoverished receive help that they would not otherwise receive. There are always very sad cases where I wish I could just bring a dozen or so home to live with me so I could help them. It is just not practical and it is highly illegal. People have to go through proper channels. When did that become such a bad thing?
Let's examine all of your opinions word by word-
Ignorant-likely, he is of above average intelligence as a businessman and as a politician. If you are honest, you will admit that someone cannot rise to his level of success and be ignorant. I think you likely mean that his opinions differ from yours. That does not mean he is ignorant. It just means you disagree with his priorities and opinions.
Unqualified-depending on if you want a run of the mill politician doing the same old stuff. If that is what you desire, maybe he is unqualified. The American people decided that they wanted to try something different and maybe they think he is more qualified by virtue of the fact that he is not a career politician.
Buffoon-I will give you that he is rougher around the edges than most ( a lot rougher ), but he is not stupid. I generally feel that he knows exactly what he is doing when he chooses to say things that will make the CNN crowd go ballistic. He really doesn't seem to care how they respond and does not care if they disagree. I find that kind of refreshing, since I rarely disagree with mainstream news and politics and socialistic liberal policies. He seems to find joy in pushing the buttons of those who dislike him. I find that very interesting.
We have to preserve the U.S. in order to be able to assist other countries. The old airplane rule, apply the oxygen to yourself before you try to assist others.
Trump is finally standing up to the world
I don't know anyone who supported Trump that now opposes him. Nobody is supporting Walsh or Sanford to oppose him on the Republican side, and several state GOP parties have already announced they'll omit their primaries/caucuses in 2020. A lot of those who voted Hillary last time will be voting for Trump in 2020. And c'mon - really - 20+ Democratic clowns in the race, and not a reasonable centrist remotely worth considering in the whole bunch. They're all in a battle to see how far left they can go.Has anybody flipped and changed their mind since 2016? I don’t know a single person.
C'mon man you're not even close
Do you mean the way he stood up to Putin, Kim Jong Un, Duterte, Erdogan?
"To err is human, to persist in error is diabolical." (Seneca)
I respect your opinion. Thanks for sharing in a civilized manner.Agreed which is why I scratch my head on those who oppose Trump as much or more then they did when he ran vs Clinton.
He has been doing a great job. Based on what the majority where saying in 2016 we should be in a economic depression and in the middle of WWIII.
Turns out the whole Russian collusion was really just an insurance policy by our own political/intelligence community in hopes of impeachment to cover up then spying on a citizen of the United States running for presidency to undermine his campaign.
And I respect the fact that you’ve been so respectful as well. Thanks GernI respect your opinion. Thanks for sharing in a civilized manner.
Hard to know.Has anybody flipped and changed their mind since 2016? I don’t know a single person.
Hard to know.
One of the hardest things to gauge about President Trump's support is that so many of his supporters are quiet about it. Call it shame or fatigue defending themselves or whatever, there's no doubt that a lot of people voted for him quietly.
For all the focus on the MAGA-hat-wearing core supporters, he didn't win with just their votes. He outperformed polls and unexpectedly won in 2016. The most optimistic pre-election predictions for him were from 538 and even they put his probability of winning somewhere around 30%; most other pollsters and analysts put his odds around half that. And of course you have Rachel Maddow's epic election night meltdown that began with gleeful declarations of the impossibility of a Trump victory.
So. Given that all of those people were quiet about their support in 2016, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they're quiet about changing their mind. Or maybe they're vocally anti-Trump now. We'll never know that they changed their minds.
Also, participants in discussions rarely change their minds (Mikkel and vector2 aren't likely to flip their votes) but for every participant there are 10 or 50 or 100 observers. And some of them change their minds. True undecideds in swing states are a small and thinning slice of America, but they're real, and they matter. And so do these discussions.
I think you're mostly right, though I would be more specific and argue that Trump got elected because of a vacant Supreme Court seat. Not so much his platform, but the assurance that he'd appoint someone diametrically opposed to the Kagan/Sotomayer clone Hillary Clinton would've appointed. That's the main reason evangelicals got on board, gave him money, raised funds. If even 10% of them had merely stayed home on election day, he'd have lost.I think a lot of Democrats make a mistake by assuming that Trump was elected by people who care about his character, like Republicans voted for Bush.
Trump got elected for his platform.
No.If you want to wash your hands of our historical role and say whatevs then fine; but keep your mouth shut when people flock to our border.
For all those saying Trump is clearly going to win re-election, let me just point out that he lost the popular vote by a large margin and won the election by less than 100k votes in three key states. Should he lose just one of theses states then he is done.
As for his policies people are kidding themselves if they think any of this is good. He is an absolute ***** in the realm of foreign policy
cozying up to dictators is dangerous territory....unless of course you want to create a dictatorship.
His trade policies are equally disastrous and a trade war with China is only going to hurt us in the long run.
He has destroyed the farming economy in the Midwest. Loan defaults in the agricultural sector are at a 20 year high. The midwestern farmers are people he needs to win re-election. While China is a problem, this isn’t how you fix their manipulation of the system.
For all the fiscal conservatives who voted for him, how do you feel about ballooning debt and corporate handouts? Because that is about all you have gotten under Trumps financial management.
A tax break the economy didn’t need. Predictions of economic growth that were not realistic and deregulation at the expense of the environment.
Hell, his environmental deregulation is going against market forces and attempting to pick winners and losers (see coal policy, renewable energy, gas mileage standards).
With regards to immigration, one thing that I would like to point out to some here (and something I wish the majority of Americans understood) is that this is merely the chickens coming home to roost. The US has a nearly 80 year history of backing dictators and destroying the political opposition in many Central American countries. Our policy in the late 80-early 90s led to the creation of MS13. If you want to wash your hands of our historical role and say whatevs then fine; but keep your mouth shut when people flock to our border.
Wrong. Trump won 304 to 227.
He would have to lose two of Wisconsin/Michigan/Pennsylvania.
So you think Obama's foreign policy was smart?
Iran, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, North Korea.
All disasters that Obama accelerated over his 8 years.
Yeah, because our previous policy with North Korea worked so well.
China's manufacturing has increased and taken business away from the US and our allies over the last 30 years.
I suppose you want China, a communist dictatorship, to be the biggest world economic and military power.
China pigs are not needing feed from the US because of viral infection. You should educate yourself on this.
Record employment and record low unemployment. Stock market at all time highs. Economic policy that will propel the US to economic prosperity for generations if allowed to continue.
So you're in favor of higher taxes and more crushing regulation against employers.
You need to balance environmental concerns with economic concerns of poor Americans.
Obama picked winners and losers to great fail. Read up on Solyndra for example.
Wow. Just wow.
So you're saying that we have no right as a country to enforce our borders, and we deserve any badness that comes our way as a result.
If that's your ideal immigration policy for 2020.........................
Trumps policy is schizophrenic. He alienated most of our allies and is cozying up to dictators. You call that progress. And all you have is “well Obama did this.” Excellent defense. And N Korea has expanded its nuclear capability under Trump. They likely have ICBM technology capable of reaching all of the US (see July announcement on this). Trump gave them credibility by agreeing to meetings and state visits; this was a huge mistake.
I am a Democrat and I don’t want open borders or mass migrations.
There ya go. Most folks are smart enough to pick the crazy capitalist over the crazy socialist..I think a lot of Democrats make a mistake by assuming that Trump was elected by people who care about his character, like Republicans voted for Bush.
Trump got elected for his platform.
There it is. You nailed it.There ya go. Most folks are smart enough to pick the crazy capitalist over the crazy socialist..
If you don't want open borders or mass migration, you need enforcement of our law and a border wall. You should vote for Trump. Beto already promised to destroy existing border wall.
By ‘Wall’ Trump meant a virtual wall, aka a worker ID card with severe employer consequences for hiring illegals. By steel or concrete he meant the mental image of a steel or concrete wall that knowledge of an effective worker ID would create in the minds of would-be illegal immigrants.You do realize the wall is a boondoggle right? Seriously you do realize the vast majority enter legally and overstay their visa. How’s that wall gonna stop that?
Seriously you do realize the vast majority enter legally and overstay their visa.
By ‘Wall’ Trump meant a virtual wall, aka a worker ID card with severe employer consequences for hiring illegals. By steel or concrete he meant the mental image of a steel or concrete wall that knowledge of an effective worker ID would create in the minds of would-be illegal immigrants.
I don't believe for a second that he ever spoke in such abstract terms. Come on, really, he's not a person known for layered use of metaphors.By ‘Wall’ Trump meant a virtual wall, aka a worker ID card with severe employer consequences for hiring illegals. By steel or concrete he meant the mental image of a steel or concrete wall that knowledge of an effective worker ID would create in the minds of would-be illegal immigrants.
There ya go. Most folks are smart enough to pick the crazy capitalist over the crazy socialist..
Right. It’s what I think he should have meant but definitely not what I think he actually meant.This is sarcasm right? Seriously you don’t really believe this right?
I keep saying:
There are many who are not fans of Trump and actually believe he’s probably a racist (and definitely a narcissistic ass****).... yet given policies laid out by dems will vote for him. These people FAR outweigh his vocal supporters.
I think he blundered on the family separation issue but overall he’s winning on immigration.... most Americans agree we can’t just have open borders. As much as the dems say they aren’t for that - they are doing a piss-poor job of articulating how you stop the flood while Trump has made actual major progress recently.
In trade no president has ever stood up to China before in a major way when they clearly gamed the system. Can’t tell where we’ll end up but he is making a stand.
In in UN it’s true that finally countries are paying more for defense of their own security... as we should have demanded years ago. Maybe it did take someone “not being diplomatic.”
For Israel there has been zero progress for 50 years and just more bloodshed while the UN is blatantly anti-semitic. Maybe we just have to not care what the world thinks, pick the side of our ally (Israel) and stop pretending to be an arbiter of a peace that clearly will never work when the terrorists are lobbing rockets.
For Iran he ripped up a joke of a deal which basically just funded a terrorist nation in exchange for kicking the can down the road 5-10 years.
I do hate how he handles Russia and the election tampering stuff... so I don’t agree with all his policies.
That being said, I think warren/sanders and most of the dems are absolutely crazy and will destroy our economy and nation with their policies.
I would vote Biden over Trump but if it comes down to voting for a racist with many policies I agree with... versus a person who I think Has crazy policies and no rational way to pay for it... guess who I’m voting for?
I don't believe for a second that he ever spoke in such abstract terms. Come on, really, he's not a person known for layered use of metaphors.
A physical wall from one ocean to the other is a stupid idea because it won't work. That's the only argument that needs to be made against it. No one needs to delve into the weeds of cost or derail their argument with cries of racism or fairness. It's a stupid idea because it won't work.
I tend to vote Republican, but I did not vote for Trump last election. I voted for one of the alternatives. Every time something good happens in the country to make me consider voting for Trump, he says or does something that pushes me back to one of those alternatives. I do not believe he has a mastermind strategy that we just do not see. I think it is easy to see that most of it is simply inconsistent. Except for the China policy. That is a chance to do some good. I cannot see Biden, Warren, or Sanders standing up to China in any way. I think they would shrivel up, or in Sander's case, apologize to China and give them half of our wealth.
For dealing with China, our economy is roaring, which is the only time that one can engage in a trade war. Just as in the 1980s when we outspent the USSR and helped cause their collapse, we are in a position where we can out-tariff China and cause their economy to collapse. The 1980s spending was not good for our national debt, but it did accomplish the collapse of the USSR. Our current spending makes the 1980s look like extreme fiscal responsibility. But due to the great economy, this could be the only time that we can actually get positive world change with regard to China. It would also help China, in the long run.
I agree that it’s a stupid idea. What Democrats don’t understand is that many people who will vote for Trump think along these lines “meh... the wall seems dumb but at least he acknowledges that we can’t have open borders and is trying to do something about it. And his policy requiring application for asylum in countries you pass through before applying here is working. Meanwhile the democrats are proposing my tax dollars go to paying for free illegal healthcare and many of them are for abolishing ICE and making violating our border no longer illegal.... hmm, who should I vote for??? Not hard. ”
Given that choice Trump scores a huge win in that category. If on the other hand Dems were saying “the wall is a colossal waste of money.... we propose strict employer enforcement with punishment for violators, streamlining the legal immigration process and smart technological barriers to illegal crossings .... well, maybe they would be winning.
As it stands, Trump has successfully painted them as the party of open borders because their policies read like the illegals are their sole constituents!
Claims that a wall alone is ineffective are based on intellectual dishonesty or myopia. A physical barrier is virtually always significantly effective (see Hungary, Israel, China, etc.). But, yes, E-Verify, visa enforcement, ending chain migration, and termination of birthright citizenship all should be parts of comprehensive immigration reform.
This thread is already pretty wild. So I’m just gonna throw this out there.
When did it become “anti-Semitic” to questions the actions of Israel?
I don’t give a flying F that they're Jewish.
They could be purple Martians. They have done horrendous things and simply just play the 20th century victim card and accuse you of hating Jews if you say anything.
Edit: to make my point clearer. The Chinese government is basically an authoritative oligarchy of dickbags. I don’t think we have even scratched the surface of the degree of oppression of that country because of their world class censorship and propaganda. But if I say that no one calls me “anti-Chinese” or accuses me of hating Chinese people. Stark contrast to my comments about Israel.
Are you kidding?
In the 1930s and 1940s, millions of Jews were killed, but a lot of the world turned a blind eye.
For the last 1000+ years, there has been a group of people with an ideology that approved of that event. They also want to go farther than that.
The BDS movement, which Tlaib and Omar support, has the express purpose of strangulating the only Jewish country in the entire world.
The "criticism" of Israel is fundamentally fueled by hatred of the Jewish people.
P.S., you should be absolutely ashamed of saying they're playing the "victim card" when they lost millions of people in death camps and their existence is threatened even today.
Stalin and Mao agree with you. The outcomes were different than your prediction.If only people realized that religion is bull**** these things would never happen again on a large or small scale.
I was suggesting religion would end through education not eradication.Stalin and Mao agree with you. The outcomes were different than your prediction.
I was suggesting religion would end through education not eradication.
if there weren't the religious angle, they would find some different brainwash. Stupid people always like to "think" in black and white, and to be told stories. Like stupid little children. No real difference.If only people realized that religion is bull**** these things would never happen again on a large or small scale.
Are you saying that the better educated you are, the less you'll be satisfied with religion?
For me personally, the more I've been through education, the more I have been satisfied by my faith.
Education won’t cure gullibility but it will remove religion from many logical, critical thinkers.
I’m not saying religious people generally aren’t critical thinkers, most aren’t, but the rest are critical thinkers in every aspect of their lives except religion.
(Unless you have personal experience with a deity in which case visiting a psychiatrist would probably be more beneficial than a religious leader.)
Education would significantly decrease population religiosity.
Education would significantly decrease population religiosity.
Depends on what kind of religiosity you're talking about.
I know many "well-educated" who go beyond logic and science in their attitudes toward GMOs and vaccines for instance.
Religiosity exists in people who think science can answer all questions, even philosophical ones.