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Dude, really?

What is wrong with you?

You show a timeline of 5.5 million years displaying about 6 degrees of temperature variation in 41,000 to 100,000 year cycles, and because of this you somehow draw the conclusion that 1-2 degrees on a 200 time year scale is ... what, exactly?

Expected?
Part of a natural cycle measured in tens of thousands of years?
Unimportant?

Between about 20,0000-100,000 years ago, glaciers covering all of Canada and the northern USA to a depth measured in kilometers.

View attachment 287433


For reference on the idiotic time scale you posted, that's here:


View attachment 287434


To be clear - and it's ridiculous that I even have to clarify this for your - I'm not suggesting that glaciers are going to cover North America soon.

I'm only suggesting that throwing out a 5.5M year temperature record (produced by the very same climate scientists you are ignoring now) as some kind of argument that explains and allows you to dismiss short term temperature changes that coincide with industrial human society is about the dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

Where did you get that I was dismissing short term temperature trends?

My point is that measurement of temperature variation over millions of years is limited by the resolution of the sampling methods, look at the graph I posted.

Today, we can measure and know temperatures on an instantaneous basis now.

One hundred years ago we had record highs and lows daily.

One thousand years ago temperatures we can guess via indirect/proxy tools with margins of error.

The farther back you go, the less temporal resolution, and greater margins of error.



You talk about 1.00-2.00 degrees of shift over 200 years, but you can't tell me with any certainty whether a similar 1.00-2.00 degree change over 200 years happened 10,000 years ago.


Check out the MWP.
 
Check out the data...


“Hansen made these remarkable comments in 1999 :

Empirical evidence does not lend much support to the notion that climate is headed precipitately toward more extreme heat and drought. The drought of 1999 covered a smaller area than the 1988 drought, when the Mississippi almost dried up. And 1988 was a temporary inconvenience as compared with repeated droughts during the 1930s “Dust Bowl” that caused an exodus from the prairies, as chronicled in Steinbeck’s Grapes of Wrath…..

in the U.S. there has been little temperature change in the past 50 years, the time of rapidly increasing greenhouse gases — in fact, there was a slight cooling throughout much of the country”




Now its your turn to dismiss the data cause it’s from a skeptic/denier Boo...


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Well when you dismiss him out of pocket because he works for an evil ‘skeptical’ institution, it becomes worthwhile to talk about his motives and integrity. I’m much more likely to dismiss someone who produces research that keeps the money rolling in and much more likely to say hmmm, this guy may have a point when he’s coming out with scientific opinions that he knows do nothing to benefit him personally or professionally.


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Yeah like the American Heart or Cancer association - or NIH-great analogy- not.

If not for these organizations many advancements would have never been reached or achieved.
 
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Yeah like the American Heart or Cancer association - or NIH-great analogy- not.

If not for these organizations many advancements would have never been reached or achieved.

I don’t understand how what you just said relates to anything I said.

Wait, I think I got it....

I said something about research money, so you mentioned research institutions and then somehow assumed I was attacking them, so you went on to say how good they are and mention the many advancements we owe to them. Is that right?


Lemme put it another way for you. What would be more convincing to you, if a researcher hired by the tobacco industry put out a study that said smoking was safe, or if they said it was harmful to your health? Which one would you instantly think had more credibility?

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Again, you guys can post all the ‘evidence’ from pro-climate change organizations, doesn’t mean that the worlds gonna melt in 12 years.

There is no such thing as a 97% consensus, and even if there was, consensus does not equal fact.

Look into where the alleged consensus comes from and tell me after if you’re comfortable repeating the tired line of ‘97% of scientist agree....’




Is there some warming going on? Sure.

Does CO2 have something to do with it? Sure.

Do humans contribute some percentage to the problem? Sure.

Is it a huge dangerous catastrophic problem? No.
Can we make much of an impact by reducing our CO2 admissions drastically? Probably not a huge impact.

Should we make drastic policy changes and regulations that harm business and restrict the use of the only economical, efficient fuel source that we have? No


Should we strive for clean energy and reducing CO2 admissions? Of course, but not at the expense of the above.


As so often is the case in this upside down world, the side demonized as being hysterical is the more rational position, and the so called consensus is the extreme position.



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Again, you guys can post all the ‘evidence’ from pro-climate change organizations, doesn’t mean that the worlds gonna melt in 12 years.

There is no such thing as a 97% consensus, and even if there was, consensus does not equal fact.

Look into where the alleged consensus comes from and tell me after if you’re comfortable repeating the tired line of ‘97% of scientist agree....’




Is there some warming going on? Sure.

Does CO2 have something to do with it? Sure.

Do humans contribute some percentage to the problem? Sure.

Is it a huge dangerous catastrophic problem? No.
Can we make much of an impact by reducing our CO2 admissions drastically? Probably not a huge impact.

Should we make drastic policy changes and regulations that harm business and restrict the use of the only economical, efficient fuel source that we have? No


Should we strive for clean energy and reducing CO2 admissions? Of course, but not at the expense of the above.


As so often is the case in this upside down world, the side demonized as being hysterical is the more rational position, and the so called consensus is the extreme position.



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I didn’t know NASA, the National Academy of Science and AAAS are “pro-climate change” organizations. I post links to actual scientific organizations and you post links to editorials from the WSJ and National Review.
 
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I didn’t know the National Academy of Science and AAAS are “pro-climate change” organizations.

Do they support the idea of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change?

Read the links I posted and tell me if you still believe there is a consensus.

Or ignore facts that counter yours and bury your head. The choice is yours.


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“There are no experimental data to support the hypothesis that in- creases in human hydrocarbon use or in atmospheric carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are causing or can be expected to cause unfavorable changes in global temperatures, weather, or landscape. There is no reason to limit human production of CO2, CH4, and other minor greenhouse gases as has been proposed (82,83,97,123).

We also need not worry about environmental calamities even if the current natural warming trend continues. The Earth has been much warmer during the past 3,000 years without catastrophic ef- fects. Warmer weather extends growing seasons and generally im- proves the habitability of colder regions.

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.

The United States and other countries need to produce more en- ergy, not less. The most practical, economical, and environmentally sound methods available are hydrocarbon and nuclear technologies.
Human use of coal, oil, and natural gas has not harmfully warmed the Earth, and the extrapolation of current trends shows that it will not do so in the foreseeable future. The CO2 produced does, how- ever, accelerate the growth rates of plants and also permits plants to grow in drier regions. Animal life, which depends upon plants, also flourishes, and the diversity of plant and animal life is increased.
Human activities are producing part of the rise in CO2 in the at- mosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere, where it is available for con- version into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush envi- ronment of plants and animals as a result of this CO2 increase. Our children will therefore enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life than that with which we now are blessed.”


The above is the conclusion from the Oregon Institute of a Science and Medicine and has evidence from 132 scientific research references.




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Do they support the idea of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change?

Read the links I posted and tell me if you still believe there is a consensus.

Or ignore facts that counter yours and bury your head. The choice is yours.


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Did YOU read them? The National Review says the consensus is closer to 75% in favor of anthropogenic climate change.
 
Did you read them? The National Review says the consensus is closer to 75% in favor of anthropogenic climate change.

Yeah, I did. Did you? Don’t think you could’ve read all I posted in the two minutes you had between posts...

Seems like you read the first few paragraphs of the National review article and then as soon as you saw a number that you think invalidated my position, you came back to frantically post in ignorance.

There is a big difference between acknowledging some amount of anthropogenic rise in CO2 (which most scientists - and myself - do) and believing the climate hysteria and demanding radical political, social, industrial, and economic changes. There’s a huge overestimation of the problem by climate models that have never proved their ability to be predictive, and a huge overestimation of how much we can impact whatever amount of warming that’s going on by cutting CO2 emissions.




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Yeah, I did. Did you? Don’t think you could’ve read all I posted in the two minutes you had between posts...

There is a big difference between acknowledging some amount of anthropogenic rise in CO2 (which most scientists - and myself - do) and believing the climate hysteria and demanding radical political, social, industrial, and economic changes. There’s a huge overestimation of the problem by climate models that have never proved their ability to be predictive, and a huge overestimation of how much we can impact whatever amount of warming that’s going on by cutting CO2 emissions.




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I read fast.

This is directly copy pasted from the National Review article you linked.

“In 2004, University of California-San Diego professor Naomi Oreskesreported that, of 928 scientific abstracts from papers published by refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, “75% . . . either explicitly or implicitly accept[ed] the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.”
 
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I read fast.

This is directly copy pasted from the National Review article you linked.

“In 2004, University of California-San Diego professor Naomi Oreskesreported that, of 928 scientific abstracts from papers published by refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, “75% . . . either explicitly or implicitly accept[ed] the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.”

Did you read the rest of the article, or just stop right there?

Did you read the article by Dr Spencer?

I know you’re just itching to come back and attack, but do yourself a favor and read everything I linked. Shouldn’t take you very long being such a fast reader.

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Did you read the rest of the article, or just stop right there?

Did you read the article by Dr Spencer?

I know you’re just itching to come back and attack, but do yourself a favor and read everything I linked. Shouldn’t take you very long being such a fast reader.

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You are doing some serious projection.
 
Do I really need to copy and paste the other poignant points for you here? I thought you read everything...


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Humor me....what are you talking about?

To me the thesis of the article is that there is a consensus among scientists that anthropogenic climate change is real but the consensus is less than 97%. What’s your take?
 
Humor me....what are you talking about?

To me the thesis of the article is that there is a consensus among scientists that anthropogenic climate change is real but the consensus is less than 97%. What’s your take?

Of note to me....

“A 2012 poll of American Meteorological Society members also reported a diversity of opinion. Of the 1,862 members who responded (a quarter of the organization), 59 percent stated that human activity was the primary cause of global warming”

“only 22 percent thought that “all” or a “large” amount of the harm could be prevented “through mitigation and adaptation measures.”

“David Legates, a University of Delaware professor who formerly headed the university’s Center for Climatic Research, recreated Cook’s study, he found that “only 41 papers — 0.3 percent of all 11,944 abstracts or 1.0 percent of the 4,014 expressing an opinion, and not 97.1 percent,” endorsed what Cook claimed. Several scientists whose papers were included in Cook’s initial sample also protested that they had been misinterpreted. “Significant questions about anthropogenic influences on climate remain,” Legates concluded.”

“Ms. Oreskes's definition of consensus covered "man-made" but left out "dangerous"—and scores of articles by prominent scientists such as Richard Lindzen, John Christy, Sherwood Idso and Patrick Michaels, who question the consensus, were excluded. The methodology is also flawed. A study published earlier this year in Nature noted that abstracts of academic papers often contain claims that aren't substantiated in the papers.” (Ms Oreskes reviewed abstracts, not full papers)

“The survey's questions don't reveal much of interest. Most scientists who are skeptical of catastrophic global warming nevertheless would answer "yes" to both questions. The survey was silent on whether the human impact is large enough to constitute a problem. Nor did it include solar scientists, space scientists, cosmologists, physicists, meteorologists or astronomers, who are the scientists most likely to be aware of natural causes of climate change.”

“Surveys of meteorologists repeatedly find a majority oppose the alleged consensus. Only 39.5% of 1,854 American Meteorological Society members who responded to a survey in 2012 said man-made global warming is dangerous.”

So my take? There is no consensus. Most people agree man has some effect on the climate, but there is FAR from a consensus on whether that effect is significant, whether the resultant climate change is dangerous, and whether any significant change can be made by cutting CO2 emissions.

AKA, there is no consensus that climate change is dangerous and needs to be addressed through drastic measures.

Did you interpret everything differently? If so, please, enlighten me on what I’m missing.



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Of note to me....

“A 2012 poll of American Meteorological Society members also reported a diversity of opinion. Of the 1,862 members who responded (a quarter of the organization), 59 percent stated that human activity was the primary cause of global warming”

“only 22 percent thought that “all” or a “large” amount of the harm could be prevented “through mitigation and adaptation measures.”

“David Legates, a University of Delaware professor who formerly headed the university’s Center for Climatic Research, recreated Cook’s study, he found that “only 41 papers — 0.3 percent of all 11,944 abstracts or 1.0 percent of the 4,014 expressing an opinion, and not 97.1 percent,” endorsed what Cook claimed. Several scientists whose papers were included in Cook’s initial sample also protested that they had been misinterpreted. “Significant questions about anthropogenic influences on climate remain,” Legates concluded.”

“Ms. Oreskes's definition of consensus covered "man-made" but left out "dangerous"—and scores of articles by prominent scientists such as Richard Lindzen, John Christy, Sherwood Idso and Patrick Michaels, who question the consensus, were excluded. The methodology is also flawed. A study published earlier this year in Nature noted that abstracts of academic papers often contain claims that aren't substantiated in the papers.” (Ms Oreskes reviewed abstracts, not full papers)

“The survey's questions don't reveal much of interest. Most scientists who are skeptical of catastrophic global warming nevertheless would answer "yes" to both questions. The survey was silent on whether the human impact is large enough to constitute a problem. Nor did it include solar scientists, space scientists, cosmologists, physicists, meteorologists or astronomers, who are the scientists most likely to be aware of natural causes of climate change.”

“Surveys of meteorologists repeatedly find a majority oppose the alleged consensus. Only 39.5% of 1,854 American Meteorological Society members who responded to a survey in 2012 said man-made global warming is dangerous.”

So my take? There is no consensus. Most people agree man has some effect on the climate, but there is FAR from a consensus on whether that effect is significant, whether the resultant climate change is dangerous, and whether any significant change can be made by cutting CO2 emissions.

AKA, there is no consensus that climate change is dangerous and needs to be addressed through drastic measures.

Did you interpret everything differently? If so, please, enlighten me on what I’m missing.



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I encourage you read the links I posted. I don’t know how you can say there is no scientific consensus.

Since you’re referencing the American Meteorological Society, here is their current statement on climate change.


“Why is climate changing?
Climate—the statistical description (both mean and variability) of the atmosphere–ocean–land–cryosphere system over a few decades—is characterized by the balance of incoming and outgoing energy, which strongly depends on the composition of the atmosphere. Consequently, climate can be affected by human-induced changes in atmospheric composition (greenhouse gases and aerosols) and land surface use/cover. Climate is also influenced by natural variability, which includes decadal to multi-decadal fluctuations of ocean circulation and temperature in the Atlantic and Pacific basins.

Anthropogenic (i.e., human-induced) climate change cannot be accurately characterized from linear trends over short periods, as these trends will likely have contributions from the incomplete cycles of natural decadal to multi-decadal variability. However, many of the above-noted changes in the past 120 years cannot be fully accounted for by natural climate variability such as the decadal to multi-decadal fluctuations of ocean circulation and temperature in the Atlantic and Pacific basins. Scientific evidence indicates that the leading cause of climate change in the most recent half century is the anthropogenic increase in the concentration of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide (CO2), chlorofluorocarbons, methane, tropospheric ozone, and nitrous oxide.


Other than water vapor, the most prevalent greenhouse gas is CO2, whose concentration is rising mainly from fossil fuel combustion, cement production, and deforestation. About half the anthropogenic CO2 input into the atmosphere has remained in the atmosphere, and the rest has been taken up by the oceans and terrestrial biosphere (i.e., soil and plants on land)—the two CO2reservoirs with which the atmosphere routinely exchanges large amounts of CO2, seasonally. Once introduced, the CO2 can reside in the atmosphere for 1000 years or more before it is removed by natural processes, with more than 50% of the introduced CO2 remaining in the atmosphere for at least 50 years and roughly 30% remaining for at least 100 years.


Water vapor is another important greenhouse gas, but unlike CO2, it responds quickly to temperature change. For this reason, it mostly acts as a feedback, amplifying the response of the climate system to changes in radiative forcing, for instance from long-lived greenhouse gases like CO2.


A third important greenhouse gas is methane, which is produced both naturally, primarily by emissions from wetlands and wildlife, and from human activities such as agriculture, landfills, and fossil fuel extraction processes, with the human activities responsible for the majority of emissions today. For example, methane is a by-product of the hydraulic fracturing (fracking) process for extracting oil and natural gas from underground. Methane is shorter-lived and much less abundant than CO2 but a much more effective greenhouse gas per molecule, with more than 30 times the warming potential of CO2 by weight when compared over a 100-year period. The concentration of methane in the atmosphere was less than 800 parts per billion before the industrial revolution and is now measured at over 1,800 parts per billion. As the climate changes, the production of natural methane will likely increase, for example, due to thawing of previously frozen carbon-rich soils in the permafrost zones of the high-latitude continents and the possible mobilization of methane trapped in hydrate form in oceanic sediment.


Human activity also affects climate through changes in the number and physical properties of tiny (nano- to micrometer diameter) solid particles and liquid droplets suspended in the atmosphere, known collectively as atmospheric aerosols, e.g., dust and sulfates from air pollution. Aerosols modify both visible and infrared radiation and can influence the spatial distribution of clouds and precipitation. Most aerosols originating from human activity act to cool the planet, partly counteracting the greenhouse warming. However, the time span in which aerosols remain suspended in the troposphere is much shorter than for greenhouse gases such as CO2. Stratospheric aerosols generated by occasional large sulfur-rich volcanic eruptions can reduce the global surface temperature for a few years.



Changes in land surface use from agriculture, irrigation, deforestation, and urbanization also influence the surface exchange of water and energy with the atmosphere, generating regional climate change.”



“Barring large increases in volcanic activity or decreases in solar energy output, reducing the amount of greenhouse gas emitted by human activity and/or accelerating the removal of these gases from the atmosphere is the only way to avoid much of the projected warming and its associated global-scale effects on sea level rise, precipitation and heat extremes, and ecosystem health. Adaptation could ameliorate at least some of the impacts of projected climate change on economies and human health.”
 
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I encourage you read the links I posted. I don’t know how you can say there is no scientific consensus.

Since you’re referencing the American Meteorological Society, here is their current statement on climate change.
/[/URL]

I think I pretty clearly stated in my previous post why there is no scientific consensus. And it’s pretty irrefutable evidence. It shows that there is clearly a LARGE body of scientists that don’t accept the climate hysteria. If you have evidence that somehow shows that the number I showed you are wrong, please show me. But I don’t know how you can disprove what I said. There is no 97% consensus, nor anywhere close to that number.

Then you posted a large statement by the Meteorological society that didn’t disagree with anything I said. What was the point of that? Nowhere in your statement did it claim that current climate change is dangerous, entirely man made, or correctable. Which are the three contentions I have with climate alarmists.


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I think I pretty clearly stated in my previous post why there is no scientific consensus. And it’s pretty irrefutable evidence. It shows that there is clearly a LARGE body of scientists that don’t accept the climate hysteria. If you have evidence that somehow shows that the number I showed you are wrong, please show me. But I don’t know how you can disprove what I said. There is no 97% consensus, nor anywhere close to that number.

Then you posted a large statement by the Meteorological society that didn’t disagree with anything I said. What was the point of that? Nowhere in your statement did it claim that current climate change is dangerous, entirely man made, or correctable. Which are the three contentions I have with climate alarmists.


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I give up. Happy Thanksgiving.
 
I give up. Happy Thanksgiving.

That’s fine, I wasn’t expecting to change your mind. Happy Thanksgiving to you too.


But for anyone reading silently, just take note of the fact that Vector could provide no rebuttal to any of the facts that I posted that absolutely destroy the notion of some kind of 97-98% consensus that climate change is man made, dangerous, and controllable by reduction of CO2 emission. Not one specific critique of any fact. Just claims of “cmon, how can you not believe in a consensus?!?” and a lengthy post from the meteorological society that had a lot of science in it, but again, disputed nothing. Do your own research. Don’t just follow the herd and headlines.

Cheers


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It's funny that all these dimwits like Matty think they have a right to flippantly (not rigorously) dismiss people who do this for a living and publish climate science in peer-reviewed journals. It's like getting diagnosed with SCC and then going into the tumor board and telling everyone that huffing essence of jojoba oil is equivalent to surgery, chemo, and rads. People love experts when they can tangibly feel that their life is imminently on the line. Unfortunately, cognitive dissonance is much stronger when the train wreck is moving slower and subject to extreme politicization.

Yes, you can find some crackpot scientists with some kind of bonafides who are climate deniers. You can also find some people with real credentials who deny the efficacy of antibiotics, vaccines, and fluoridation. None of these people present a good case to ignore the very real consensus.

Look at this climate denier article which seeks to “demolish” the “97%” figure:

——
“ Given these results, it is clear that support among scientists for human-caused climate change is below 97%. Most studies including specialties other than climatologists find support in the range of 80% to 90%. The 97% consensus of scientists, when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.

In the strict sense, the 97% consensus is false, even when limited to climate scientists. The 2016 Cook review found the consensus to be “shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists.” One survey found it to be 84%. Continuing to claim 97% support is deceptive. I find the 97% consensus of climate scientists to be overstated.”

——

Lol, this guy is trying to prove his point by saying the consensus, at worst, is 80%. Anyone who knows anything about science knows that getting 80% of scientists to agree to something might as well be the same as saying accepted fact. Hell, you can’t even get 80% of doctors and nutrition researchers to agree whether something relatively facile to measure like calories are more important than macronutrient composition.


Regardless, barring everything I just posted, pgg already made the best point about this topic earlier in the thread. Even if you don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change, why is god’s name wouldn’t you want to decrease the pollution that dirties our rivers and oceans and makes the air more difficult to breathe? It still blows my mind sometimes that Republicans used to be champions of conservation and Nixon was the one who started the EPA
 
It's funny that all these dimwits like Matty think they have a right to flippantly (not rigorously) dismiss people who do this for a living and publish climate science in peer-reviewed journals. It's like getting diagnosed with SCC and then going into the tumor board and telling everyone that huffing essence of jojoba oil is equivalent to surgery, chemo, and rads. People love experts when they can tangibly feel that their life is imminently on the line. Unfortunately, cognitive dissonance is much stronger when the train wreck is moving slower and subject to extreme politicization.

Yes, you can find some crackpot scientists with some kind of bonafides who are climate deniers. You can also find some people with real credentials who deny the efficacy of antibiotics, vaccines, and fluoridation. None of these people present a good case to ignore the very real consensus.

Look at this climate denier article which seeks to “demolish” the “97%” figure:

——
“ Given these results, it is clear that support among scientists for human-caused climate change is below 97%. Most studies including specialties other than climatologists find support in the range of 80% to 90%. The 97% consensus of scientists, when used without limitation to climate scientists, is false.

In the strict sense, the 97% consensus is false, even when limited to climate scientists. The 2016 Cook review found the consensus to be “shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists.” One survey found it to be 84%. Continuing to claim 97% support is deceptive. I find the 97% consensus of climate scientists to be overstated.”

——

Lol, this guy is trying to prove his point by saying the consensus, at worst, is 80%. Anyone who knows anything about science knows that getting 80% of scientists to agree to something might as well be the same as saying accepted fact. Hell, you can’t even get 80% of doctors and nutrition researchers to agree whether something relatively facile to measure like calories are more important than macronutrient composition.


Regardless, barring everything I just posted, pgg already made the best point about this topic earlier in the thread. Even if you don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change, why is god’s name wouldn’t you want to decrease the pollution that dirties our rivers and oceans and makes the air more difficult to breathe? It still blows my mind sometime that Republicans used to be champions of conservation and Nixon was the one who started the EPA

Again, you don’t/can’t dispute any of the FACTS I posted. Facts that show exactly how the nonsense so-called consensus was derived, and how it is in no way a consensus. And instead of addressing the facts that I posted, you post your own article to attack? Sweet tactic.

When you have no argument, you lash out and ad hominem attack.

‘Dimwits, crackpots, deniers....”

Par for the course.


And you wrap it up with a false notion that anyone is supporting pollution.

Maybe you should’ve just left it with “Happy Thanksgiving” and thought some more about this subject and do some more research.


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You guys are arguing about pollution but nobody states something that is a big deal and destroying our environment.... The amount of nonnative EMF(electromagnetic frequencies) that we now use is harming us. O and it causes an increase in the temperature too.(regardless of the dam Co2). Why is that? We have so much electrosmog that cannot escape the ionosphere (look that up if you are not sure of the layers) and stays below. This increases the surface temperature of the Earth and is part of the reason why we have more cloud cover now vs years ago. Mother earth is trying to cool down!
 
Again, you don’t/can’t dispute any of the FACTS I posted. Facts that show exactly how the nonsense so-called consensus was derived, and how it is in no way a consensus. And instead of addressing the facts that I posted, you post your own article to attack? Sweet tactic.

When you have no argument, you lash out and ad hominem attack.

‘Dimwits, crackpots, deniers....”

Par for the course.


And you wrap it up with a false notion that anyone is supporting pollution.

Maybe you should’ve just left it with “Happy Thanksgiving” and thought some more about this subject and do some more research.


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Bro, you do realize you were arguing with @nimbus this whole page until I just posted, and nimbus was the one who said Happy Thanksgiving? Either your brain is turning to cottage cheese like our POTUS or you must be developing Vector Derangement Syndrome.
 
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Bro, you do realize you were arguing with @nimbus this whole page until I just posted, and nimbus was the one who said Happy Thanksgiving? Either your brain is turning to cottage cheese like our POTUS or you must be developing Vector Derangement Syndrome.

Lol. My bad. You guys say the same thing all the time, so it’s hard to distinguish. [emoji13]


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—-
Trump Denies Sending Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine for Biden Probe

Donald Trump denied directing Rudy Giuliani to go to Ukraine to look for dirt on his political rivals, in an interview with former Fox News host Bill O’Reilly.

“No, I didn’t direct him, but he is a warrior, he is a warrior,” Trump told O’Reilly in an interview streamed on the internet on Tuesday.

...

Asked by O’Reilly what Giuliani was doing in Ukraine, Trump said “you have to ask that to Rudy.”

“Rudy has other clients, other than me,” the president added. “He’s done a lot of work in Ukraine over the years.”


It wasn’t clear if Trump intended to somehow distance himself from Giuliani with his remarks to O’Reilly. The former New York City mayor is under investigation by federal prosecutors related to his activities in Ukraine. Trump’s effort to force Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, to open investigations that could be damaging to his political rivals including former Vice President Joe Biden is the subject of the House impeachment inquiry.

—


My god, how much more Orwellian can these criminals get, considering Trump. literally. tells. Z. in. the. July. call. to. talk. to. Rudy. Next WH press release will tell us up is down, black is white, 2+2=5, and all his sheep will eat it up.
 
—-
Trump Denies Sending Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine for Biden Probe

Donald Trump denied directing Rudy Giuliani to go to Ukraine to look for dirt on his political rivals, in an interview with former Fox News host Bill O’Reilly.

“No, I didn’t direct him, but he is a warrior, he is a warrior,” Trump told O’Reilly in an interview streamed on the internet on Tuesday.

...

Asked by O’Reilly what Giuliani was doing in Ukraine, Trump said “you have to ask that to Rudy.”

“Rudy has other clients, other than me,” the president added. “He’s done a lot of work in Ukraine over the years.”


It wasn’t clear if Trump intended to somehow distance himself from Giuliani with his remarks to O’Reilly. The former New York City mayor is under investigation by federal prosecutors related to his activities in Ukraine. Trump’s effort to force Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, to open investigations that could be damaging to his political rivals including former Vice President Joe Biden is the subject of the House impeachment inquiry.

—


My god, how much more Orwellian can these criminals get, considering Trump. literally. tells. Z. in. the. July. call. to. talk. to. Rudy. Next WH press release will tell us up is down, black is white, 2+2=5, and all his sheep will eat it up.
See you in the gulag.
 
Reminder that the Biden/Burisma mess was noted well before Trump was elected: WATCH: Obama Administration Repeatedly Ducked Questions on Hunter Biden | Breitbart

Yes this was discussed already as Ambassador Yovanowitch also brought it up during her testimony. I don’t think anyone on here is disputing that it might not be a good look for Hunter Biden to be on the board. However, why does 1) that mean you send your PERSONAL attorney in to deal with things and 2) you ask the Ukrainians to investigate?? In addition, why now is this such an urgent matter to deal with?? I’m going to bet trump would not care one bit if Biden weren’t a top presidential candidate at the moment.
 
Rudy, as Trump's personal attorney, went to several countries during the Russia investigation looking for exculpatory evidence against the Russia collusion claims. That's why he was overseas. Rudy was a US attorney, whose career focused on organized crime and mafia cases. He is well known and respected in this field. While in Ukraine, evidence of Joe Biden's quid pro quo was presented to him. He wasn't over there for the purpose of investigating Biden.

The US and Ukraine have a treaty in which they are obligated to help each other with criminal investigations: https://www.congress.gov/106/cdoc/tdoc16/CDOC-106tdoc16.pdf

There is so much more to this than JUST Hunter Biden getting a lucrative job while his dad was VP. There were BILLIONS of US dollars that went missing in Ukraine. BILLIONS of all of OUR money that went missing. For the life of me, I cannot understand why none of you seem to give a crap. We have a huge deficit, and one of biggest reasons is FRAUD that is being perpetrated on you and on me. These things need to be thoroughly investigated, regardless of who is or who is not a presidential candidate.
 
Yes this was discussed already as Ambassador Yovanowitch also brought it up during her testimony. I don’t think anyone on here is disputing that it might not be a good look for Hunter Biden to be on the board. However, why does 1) that mean you send your PERSONAL attorney in to deal with things and 2) you ask the Ukrainians to investigate?? In addition, why now is this such an urgent matter to deal with?? I’m going to bet trump would not care one bit if Biden weren’t a top presidential candidate at the moment.

Better late than never. Hehe.
 
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He asks twice. Relevant portion starts at 3:36 and he asks again at 6:06. It appears these ladies were too polite to tell him the actual answer. And he’s the President of the United States of America. How did this happen?


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. How did this happen?

He virulently hates all the same people and things that his voters hate, but unlike most politicians he has absolutely zero decorum so he just comes right on out and says it. One thing his campaign was brilliant at was selling the divisive narrative that "our tribe" is getting devastated by "their tribe" and that he was the only one that could offer protection.



Also tax breaks.
 
Rudy, as Trump's personal attorney, went to several countries during the Russia investigation looking for exculpatory evidence against the Russia collusion claims. That's why he was overseas. Rudy was a US attorney, whose career focused on organized crime and mafia cases. He is well known and respected in this field. While in Ukraine, evidence of Joe Biden's quid pro quo was presented to him. He wasn't over there for the purpose of investigating Biden.

The US and Ukraine have a treaty in which they are obligated to help each other with criminal investigations: https://www.congress.gov/106/cdoc/tdoc16/CDOC-106tdoc16.pdf

There is so much more to this than JUST Hunter Biden getting a lucrative job while his dad was VP. There were BILLIONS of US dollars that went missing in Ukraine. BILLIONS of all of OUR money that went missing. For the life of me, I cannot understand why none of you seem to give a crap. We have a huge deficit, and one of biggest reasons is FRAUD that is being perpetrated on you and on me. These things need to be thoroughly investigated, regardless of who is or who is not a presidential candidate.
So glad you are concerned about governmental waste:

Remember that EVERY DAY of presidential visit costs ONE MILLION dollars. The damage this president is doing to the country never ends.
 
He asks twice. Relevant portion starts at 3:36 and he asks again at 6:06. It appears these ladies were too polite to tell him the actual answer. And he’s the President of the United States of America. How did this happen?


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Bad culture. Fear of speaking truth to power. Definitely not the kind of mentality that founded the country.

Unfortunately, in the 21st century, presidential powers (and abuses) have been extended beyond the intentions of the founders, the so-called imperial presidency. So it makes sense that Americans have started treating the office of president as if it were emperor.

I don't think I have ever heard of a president overruling military justice (for, basically, electoral purposes) in ANY democracy. And that's just one drop in the ocean.

The trumpists are deplorable, more than ever.
 
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