Withdrawing from Match

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Hey everyone, I was looking for a bit of input on something.

I'm an MS4, and I really want to go into equity research. I've been investing for a long time, and realized during medical school that I like investing a lot more than I like medicine. Right now I'm applying to jobs at investment banks, hedge funds, and venture capital firms. I tried talking to my deans about applying to jobs and my school is very unsupportive of that path.

I ended up applying to residencies last year in Psych. At that time I was still kind of undecided - I really love Psychiatry, I just like finance more.

Now, the psych program at my school told me they have ranked me as their top applicant this year. Would it really screw them over if I didn't withdraw? Or does it just go to the next applicant on their rank list.

If I do withdraw, a friend of mine told me I absolutely have to tell my Dean's office about this, and tell the program directors that I am withdrawing. Is this absolutely necessary, or can I just withdraw officially via NRMP and not submit a rank list?

Any thoughts?
 
Rekt said:
This.

I'm not sure why you think you'll be able to easily enter into the investment banking business over people who actually went to business school?
Click to expand...
The OP is obviously incredibly insightful, visionary, and able to spot future trends. Someone who spends 4 years of their life in medical school when they actually want to be doing something else clearly displays all those qualities.
 
But in seriousness to the OP, technically you don't have to do anything if you really plan on not doing residency. You don't have to tell anyone, just don't submit a ROL and you will not match.

Now if you don't want to burn bridges, I would definitely tell your Dean and the pysch PD at your school. If at some point you decide you actually do want to do psychiatry, you will need those 2 people on your side. You're not screwing anyone over, they would just move one slot lower on their list, but they might think you're a weirdo if you don't give them a heads up. You certainly don't have to tell the other programs you interviewed at. It would just be like not ranking a program. People don't rank programs they interview with all the time, and no one sends "I'm not ranking you" emails.

And as others have said, the worst thing you can do is go through the match, match at a program, and then decide you don't want to start. In that instance you will be screwing people over, not to mention you would get banned from the NRMP for 8 years or whatever for breaking the match agreement.
 
the argus said:
The OP is obviously incredibly insightful, visionary, and able to spot future trends. Someone who spends 4 years of their life in medical school when they actually want to be doing something else clearly displays all those qualities.
Click to expand...
Deng... you need to change your name to shrekt :bow:
 
I would look more at a 5-10yr plan to transition to investments. Do your residency, work as an attending and invest, if you are successful work less and start a side business, slowly transitioning to investing as your full time profession. You may find out you don't like it or aren't very good, then you can fall back on your boarded MD and make a living as you see fit. GL either way
 
wow.........I have heard some stupid stuff before but this one is really up there unless you have some connections or other business background you did not mention.

IF you are really going to do this, I would at least let my school know and not submit a rank list so that you do not match to a program and screw that program over.

Common sense is not common. :slap:
 
I'm sure the people at your school are unsupportive of that path...because it's dumb as hell. You don't even have a job in the bag you're just "applying" for a bunch of jobs you aren't even qualified for at this point unless you got an MBA or undergrad degree in accounting/math/etc you aren't telling anyone about. Even if you were previously qualified for them, you've now spent 4 years doing something completely unrelated.

You don't have to tell anyone about this, you can just not submit a match list and you won't match, joining the thousands of other jobless un-Matched applicants.
 
As mentioned above, there's what you "need" to do, and what you "probably should do because it's the professional thing to do".

If you decide that you don't want to match at all, you NEED to:
1. Withdraw from the match
OR
2. Do not submit a rank list
OR
3. Submit an empty rank list

Withdrawing will also pull you out of SOAP, but that really doesn't matter because you need to participate in SOAP to make anything happen. The only other "benefit" to withdrawing is that when programs look at where everyone they ranked matched, they will see you listed as "withdrawn" rather than "unmatched". If you were high enough on their rank list to match there and are unmatched, they would know that you didn't rank them. What they wouldn't know is that you didn't rank anyone, so they might take it as a signal that you are uninterested in being there, ever.

What you probably SHOULD do (on top of the above):
1. Tell your Dean of Students, so they don't try to frantically contact you on match week.
2. Tell your home psych program, just to be polite.

You should be very certain this is the path you wish to trod. Going back will be difficult.
 
I think you should stay in the match and try out residency. If you hate it, you can quit. If you like it, you can stay. At least then you'll have a better sense of why you're leaving. Either way, if you leave you're gonna have a hard time getting back in, so you might as well try it out and see how it is while you still have the chance.

Edit: Also I probably wouldn't withdraw unless you actually got a finance job. If you get one after the match and are 100% sure you don't wanna go to residency ever, you can just break off your match agreement. Yes the program will be pissed off, and you'll be banned from the match for a long time, but if you're sure you're never going back the medical field, it won't hurt you. It's better to have them pissed off than you unemployed and unable to feed yourself.
 
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A few people in my class didn't apply to residency to pursue other careers, it's not that rare, particularly in high flying, non traditional students. They knew from the start that they were unlikely to complete a residency.
One was a former finance person who expected to go back to some hedge fund or whatever, he decided he liked orthopedic surgery and struggled to choose. Ultimately he decided to give ortho a chance and 20 years later he's still in medicine. It sounds like you're certain about your non medical path. If that's what you want to do, go for it. Just be aware that any break in your training is a yellow flag at least, and the longer you're out, the harder it will be to come back. The same can be said of the street. It's a tough decision, and finding a way to leverage your medical degree might be harder than you think.
 
I would just be extremely sure that you have a viable plan before withdrawing from the match. Essentially throwing your last four years of time and tuition down the drain to "apply for jobs" seems unwise at best and completely idiotic at worst.

There are plenty of people that get out of medicine later on once they decide that they actually don't want to practice medicine and have spent some time working - be it during residency or out in practice. By doing that, as others have said, you will still have the opportunity to have a job to sustain you should this grand plan of "investment banking" not work out or doesn't end up being everything that you thought it would be.

It'd be one thing if you actually had a job lined up and a solid plan behind you. If that were the case, I think people would be more supportive of the plan. But leaving what is essentially a golden ticket for... nothing just seems poorly thought out. Personally, unless you have a clear plan to get from medicine to banking apart from "applying for jobs" or have done some serious reflection and come to the conclusion that you would rather have no job and no way to support yourself (a worst case scenario) than practice medicine, I wouldn't do it. Too much unknown substituting for a known and clear path to a viable future.
 
This seems like a horrible idea if you are risk averse. Finisgin residency will give you a fall back plan, you can practice a few days a month and maintain credentials while trying out this investing idea. Psych residency is low enough hourse you can even do some on nights/weekends. You are about to discard the blueberry filling to the pie crust that is medical school. You ever eat a pie with just crust? No, you haven't
 
sb247 said:
This seems like a horrible idea if you are risk averse.
Click to expand...

Most people willing to make a career out of investing are the opposite of risk averse.

To the OP, which can you not live without? Not which do you like better, but which would leave you with an empty place in your sense of self? Because obviously investing can be a hobby. Medicine can't be a hobby until after you've completed a residency (particularly in psych where the solo practice model still works).

My guess is that you're done with medicine. If you're applying to jobs in Ibanking, you're aware of the hours those guys put in and realize that you're going to be working a LOT harder than you would in a psych residency, which doesn't faze you. You probably also aren't worried about the student loan debt because if you're any good at investing, you'll pay that off within 3 years.

I agree with idea that your judgement is suspect, but the ibanking guys won't care so long as you make money.

Most of us in medicine got to where we are by playing by the rules, from the time we were in kindergarten up to working 80 hours a week for 3-7 years, we've always stepped up to meet expectations, so keep that in mind when you're navigating this transition. If you have any worry about burning bridges, going through things the "right" way as aProgDirector has laid out will serve you mightily.

Lastly, what's your best stock tip at the moment?
 
Everyone I know who chose not to pursue residency already had something concrete lined up- contracts signed and so on. To forgo the match because you're applying for jobs seems like a really, really bad idea. But, matching into a residency that you don't intend to spend at least a year at is also a bad idea. Personally I'd keep investing as a hobby until finishing residency, then jump into finance with a built-in backup plan.
 
Basically agree with the advice posted above. Particularly with sb247's - Psych residency is easy enough that you should look at it as an opportunity to transition to your career of choice.

I know that investing is not the same as business management, but anecdotally: my second cousin decided in medical school that he was really interested in running a business; not so much in practicing medicine. He did a Psych residency at a very prestigious program, and now runs a bunch of facilities. He sees patients once in a while... I think he only sees those who started with him before his business really got rolling.
 
As someone on the finance side, please don't do this at least match and finish your residency first. Don't compare what you do in your personal account to what is done at an institutional investment firm. The 3 places you list are very different, for you to be applying to them all at the same time shows that you aren't entirely sure what you want to do. Do you want to do sell side research or buyside research? Also what school did you do UG because unless its a top school without a background investing no buyside firm (HF, VC) is going to take a look at you unless you have 1) major connections or 2) you are a wizard at networking
 
sb247 said:
This seems like a horrible idea if you are risk averse. Finisgin residency will give you a fall back plan, you can practice a few days a month and maintain credentials while trying out this investing idea. Psych residency is low enough hourse you can even do some on nights/weekends. You are about to discard the blueberry filling to the pie crust that is medical school. You ever eat a pie with just crust? No, you haven't
Click to expand...

Ummm pie crust is the best part of pie
 
managedcarefin said:
As someone on the finance side, please don't do this at least match and finish your residency first. Don't compare what you do in your personal account to what is done at an institutional investment firm. The 3 places you list are very different, for you to be applying to them all at the same time shows that you aren't entirely sure what you want to do. Do you want to do sell side research or buyside research? Also what school did you do UG because unless its a top school without a background investing no buyside firm (HF, VC) is going to take a look at you unless you have 1) major connections or 2) you are a wizard at networking
Click to expand...

Best advice here. I'd just add a 3rd option for getting a buy side job: personal brokerage accounts showing that you are, in fact, yourself, a wizard.

I had a friend who had ~300% CAGR personal portfolio performance during his 4 years of UG. His trading receipts were essentially his cover letter for buy-side jobs when he graduated. And he got a great one.

OP: you're not going to like to hear this, but almost ALL of the value from an employer's perspective comes from your residency training. They want to buy the insights of a practicing doc -- not just someone with the letters "MD".

You're not going to like this, but the smartest thing you can do is find a prelim medicine spot, then convert to categorical after Y1 and complete an IM residency. Yes, it is 3 years of your life. But I tell you now: your career trajectory in finance or consulting will be markedly better with that credibility. Like 3-10x.

If you are ok with 4 years of medical school as a pure sunk cost, and are ready to go fight it out with a bunch of Wharton grads for entry-level analyst jobs, go nuts. Otherwise do the residency and then make your move.
 
22031 Alum said:
To forgo the match because you're applying for jobs seems like a really, really bad idea. But, matching into a residency that you don't intend to spend at least a year at is also a bad idea.
Click to expand...
I agree with the first part. But I think the OP should stay in the match whether he feels like going to residency now or not. Because if he withdraws and changes his mind anytime between now and July, he's out of luck for residency. On the other hand, if he lands a job offer in the meantime, he can quit after 30 days or whatever it is the match contract requires (so as to not get banned). Yes it will burn his bridge to residency in psych, but if he's got a job offer in hand and doesn't plan to go back, it doesn't matter.
 
The program doesn't care they probably tell a dozen people they're the top choice. The match is a game. On the other hand I would recommend you tough it out for a year of internship and get a medical license at least. That'll open a lot of doors in the pharma business world. Otherwise your degree is pretty worthless.
 
Can't you just graduate from MD school and match after taking a "gap year(s)"? Or do you have to enter residency right after medical school?
 
MyNameWasUsed said:
Can't you just graduate from MD school and match after taking a "gap year(s)"? Or do you have to enter residency right after medical school?
Click to expand...

The chance of you securing a residency goes down dramatically after you graduate from medical school. Some programs won't even look at your application if you're more than 5 years out from med school graduation.
 
chipwhitley said:
I agree with the first part. But I think the OP should stay in the match whether he feels like going to residency now or not. Because if he withdraws and changes his mind anytime between now and July, he's out of luck for residency. On the other hand, if he lands a job offer in the meantime, he can quit after 30 days or whatever it is the match contract requires (so as to not get banned). Yes it will burn his bridge to residency in psych, but if he's got a job offer in hand and doesn't plan to go back, it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Even if there are no consequences for quitting after the first month, it still is a pretty sh*tty thing to do to the program and his future colleagues (especially if the program is small).. If he starts residency, he should commit to the full year, if nothing else, for the licensing benefits listed by others.. Hopefully the details of any job offers will be available before the Match occurs though! JMT
 
Moko said:
Even if there are no consequences for quitting after the first month, it still is a pretty sh*tty thing to do to the program and his future colleagues (especially if the program is small).. If he starts residency, he should commit to the full year, if nothing else, for the licensing benefits listed by others.. Hopefully the details of any job offers will be available before the Match occurs though! JMT
Click to expand...
Well, he'd have to get a job offer before the deadline for rank list submission, which is in 3 weeks. After that, if he submits a rank list he's committing to the match.
 
Hey everybody, thanks for the thoughts, you guys are great.

MyNameWasUsed said:
Can't you just graduate from MD school and match after taking a "gap year(s)"? Or do you have to enter residency right after medical school?
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is what I was thinking too. Not sure why there is so much pushback against the idea of withdrawing from match to apply. If it doesn't work out, couldn't I just apply to residencies after that year? I understand it'd be a little bit more difficult after a year off, but considering psych is not super competitive, I really thought this would be a viable option if no job comes down the pipeline.

I do have some savings - I worked for a couple of years before med school, and invested my savings throughout, so now have enough to live for at least a couple years pretty comfortably in the meantime.
 
aProgDirector said:
As mentioned above, there's what you "need" to do, and what you "probably should do because it's the professional thing to do".

If you decide that you don't want to match at all, you NEED to:
1. Withdraw from the match
OR
2. Do not submit a rank list
OR
3. Submit an empty rank list

Withdrawing will also pull you out of SOAP, but that really doesn't matter because you need to participate in SOAP to make anything happen. The only other "benefit" to withdrawing is that when programs look at where everyone they ranked matched, they will see you listed as "withdrawn" rather than "unmatched". If you were high enough on their rank list to match there and are unmatched, they would know that you didn't rank them. What they wouldn't know is that you didn't rank anyone, so they might take it as a signal that you are uninterested in being there, ever.

What you probably SHOULD do (on top of the above):
1. Tell your Dean of Students, so they don't try to frantically contact you on match week.
2. Tell your home psych program, just to be polite.

You should be very certain this is the path you wish to trod. Going back will be difficult.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much aProgDirector - your input is very much appreciated.
 
nothingelse said:
Hey everybody, thanks for the thoughts, you guys are great.



Yeah, this is what I was thinking too. Not sure why there is so much pushback against the idea of withdrawing from match to apply. If it doesn't work out, couldn't I just apply to residencies after that year? I understand it'd be a little bit more difficult after a year off, but considering psych is not super competitive, I really thought this would be a viable option if no job comes down the pipeline.

I do have some savings - I worked for a couple of years before med school, and invested my savings throughout, so now have enough to live for at least a couple years pretty comfortably in the meantime.
Click to expand...

Well be sure to come back after you try to match again and let us know how it goes when you tell program directors that you took time off from medicine to apply for something else
 
I'm a former buyside trader who decided to go to med school. I can tell you that as a graduating MS4 you have absolutely nothing to offer any firm over what a liberal arts college student can. If you just want to ditch medicine and go to the street thats fine, but recognize that you will need to eat **** for years and work your way up. You also might have to go back and get an advanced degree in finance or your CFA certification.

What might be a better option, and what Ive seen some people at my old firm do was to go into medicine, complete a residency, make some contacts and then switch over. Being a board certed psychiatrist with an intimate knowledge of the pharmaceutical therapies, drug companies, reps will actually give you something to offer on the investment side. Do some research on risk taking or trading psychology and hammer out a niche in that during residency and now you are really talking.
 
the argus said:
The OP is obviously incredibly insightful, visionary, and able to spot future trends. Someone who spends 4 years of their life in medical school when they actually want to be doing something else clearly displays all those qualities.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I am insightful, visionary, and able to spot future trends.
 
Rekt said:
This.

I'm not sure why you think you'll be able to easily enter into the investment banking business over people who actually went to business school?
Click to expand...

Investment banks like to have MD's for their life sciences divisions, especially in equity research. Of course, they have to be MD's who are very financially proficient as well.
 
J DUB said:
wow.........I have heard some stupid stuff before but this one is really up there unless you have some connections or other business background you did not mention.

IF you are really going to do this, I would at least let my school know and not submit a rank list so that you do not match to a program and screw that program over.

Common sense is not common. :slap:
Click to expand...

Hm, I'm not sure how a personal preference can be stupid. Are you personally offended that someone might like finance more than medicine?
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
I'm sure the people at your school are unsupportive of that path...because it's dumb as hell. You don't even have a job in the bag you're just "applying" for a bunch of jobs you aren't even qualified for at this point unless you got an MBA or undergrad degree in accounting/math/etc you aren't telling anyone about. Even if you were previously qualified for them, you've now spent 4 years doing something completely unrelated.

You don't have to tell anyone about this, you can just not submit a match list and you won't match, joining the thousands of other jobless un-Matched applicants.
Click to expand...

Hm, it also seems as though you may have taken offense as well. By the quote in your signature, it seems like you really like medicine. Which is cool and all. Nice avatar by the way, I like Calvin and Hobbes.
 
NickNaylor said:
I would just be extremely sure that you have a viable plan before withdrawing from the match. Essentially throwing your last four years of time and tuition down the drain to "apply for jobs" seems unwise at best and completely idiotic at worst.

There are plenty of people that get out of medicine later on once they decide that they actually don't want to practice medicine and have spent some time working - be it during residency or out in practice. By doing that, as others have said, you will still have the opportunity to have a job to sustain you should this grand plan of "investment banking" not work out or doesn't end up being everything that you thought it would be.

It'd be one thing if you actually had a job lined up and a solid plan behind you. If that were the case, I think people would be more supportive of the plan. But leaving what is essentially a golden ticket for... nothing just seems poorly thought out. Personally, unless you have a clear plan to get from medicine to banking apart from "applying for jobs" or have done some serious reflection and come to the conclusion that you would rather have no job and no way to support yourself (a worst case scenario) than practice medicine, I wouldn't do it. Too much unknown substituting for a known and clear path to a viable future.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. They key consideration here was preserving an option to match the next year if I didn't get a job. I was also a little hesitant about potentially leaving a gap in their program, when many of these attendings were great mentors to me. However, my position has hardened a little on that issue. After seeing so many people who were basically assured of matching by a program go match-less this week, I don't really view "screwing people over" as a consideration anymore. Programs burn applicants all the time. Stuff kind of happens, and people deal with it.

Also, investment banking isn't that grand. Most people don't like it, but see it as a gateway to an enjoyable job - i.e. getting to generate your own ideas, however you want, on whatever you want, as a hedge fund analyst. And eventually, maybe getting to PM, where you are actually making decisions, which seems like a lot of fun. I've talked to a few HF managers to get some more information, and they all seem to really love their jobs. It definitely isn't for everyone, but from everything I've seen and experienced, an HF job seems like something I'd be happy to work very hard at.
 
BigRedBeta said:
Most people willing to make a career out of investing are the opposite of risk averse.

To the OP, which can you not live without? Not which do you like better, but which would leave you with an empty place in your sense of self? Because obviously investing can be a hobby. Medicine can't be a hobby until after you've completed a residency (particularly in psych where the solo practice model still works).

My guess is that you're done with medicine. If you're applying to jobs in Ibanking, you're aware of the hours those guys put in and realize that you're going to be working a LOT harder than you would in a psych residency, which doesn't faze you. You probably also aren't worried about the student loan debt because if you're any good at investing, you'll pay that off within 3 years.

I agree with idea that your judgement is suspect, but the ibanking guys won't care so long as you make money.

Most of us in medicine got to where we are by playing by the rules, from the time we were in kindergarten up to working 80 hours a week for 3-7 years, we've always stepped up to meet expectations, so keep that in mind when you're navigating this transition. If you have any worry about burning bridges, going through things the "right" way as aProgDirector has laid out will serve you mightily.

Lastly, what's your best stock tip at the moment?
Click to expand...

Thanks for such a nice and thoughtful comment.

Yes, the "which can I not live without" was the big consideration. I went to medical school because I really liked physiology. Then I discovered I really liked psychiatry. Then I thought I could just invest on the side. Then, in 3rd year, when I was putting in 80 hr weeks, I didn't have the time to research investments, I did poorly, and it was incredibly painful. That's what triggered the realization that it would always be like that - I would never be able to dedicate the kind of time needed to get good returns if I didn't do it full time. Investing is a brutal business, and if you want to outperform, you need to spend every moment of every day seeking out the best investment ideas. I've had a portfolio I started from summer jobs back in high school, and by now investing is such an ingrained part of my psyche, its just part of who I am.

You're totally right about the medicine consideration. Perhaps a board of doctors isn't the best place to ask whether to make a really risky decision - doctors have done everything in their life to avoid risk.

My style of investing may be a bit rough for you - I typically hold really volatile stocks for a very long time to get a good return. I also invest in a lot of penny stock, micro-cap names that most people would snub their noses at. That being said, I'm working on an idea that may end up being pretty good... When I get a write-up done of it, I'll PM you.
 
sb247 said:
This seems like a horrible idea if you are risk averse. Finisgin residency will give you a fall back plan, you can practice a few days a month and maintain credentials while trying out this investing idea. Psych residency is low enough hourse you can even do some on nights/weekends. You are about to discard the blueberry filling to the pie crust that is medical school. You ever eat a pie with just crust? No, you haven't
Click to expand...

I love crust!
 
managedcarefin said:
As someone on the finance side, please don't do this at least match and finish your residency first. Don't compare what you do in your personal account to what is done at an institutional investment firm. The 3 places you list are very different, for you to be applying to them all at the same time shows that you aren't entirely sure what you want to do. Do you want to do sell side research or buyside research? Also what school did you do UG because unless its a top school without a background investing no buyside firm (HF, VC) is going to take a look at you unless you have 1) major connections or 2) you are a wizard at networking
Click to expand...

On the finance side? What do you do exactly?

No, I'm pretty sure at this point that HF is what I'd like to do. As a person in finance, I suspect you know that the most common route to buy-side research jobs is through investment banking, and the second most common is sell-side equity research. I was thinking about VC jobs as well, simply for the reason that there's been this huge explosion in VC funds while HF assets may be on the decline due to the phase-out of pensions and possible redemption risk by large sovereign wealth funds. I figured it would be a lot easier to transition to HF from VC than from psychiatry.

No major connections, top school, or wizardry here, but I am a really hard worker, and that's always been my only edge in life.
 
W19 said:
I think you should at least do 1 year residency so you can be licensed to practice medicine... If the investment stuff does not work, you will at least have something to fall back on...
Click to expand...

Yeah this is what I ended up doing. Getting a CFA Level 1 in the meantime. Definitely makes for a strange match day experience...
 
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Reactions: W19
I think you should finish your residency and get an income. Have you looked being a self-employed trader as opposed to working for a firm? With your MD salary you will be able to build up a trading account quickly. If you haven't studied options and futures trading, you should really start studying it. Accounts can be started with just 5-10k and gradually scaled. Having a mentor in this area can be life-changing. I am part of an options/futures investment group. Several doctors are in the group. Some of the successful traders exceed 20% returns annually selling options premium strategies.
 
So did you match or what? Hope you did. Psych residency is laid back enough that you would have a little free time to further pursue you investing hobby.
 
nothingelse said:
You're totally right about the medicine consideration. Perhaps a board of doctors isn't the best place to ask whether to make a really risky decision - doctors have done everything in their life to avoid risk.
Click to expand...

This is so true it's ridiculous. Doctors are scared at even the thought of risk. That's why they're willing to jump through every hoop put in front of them in this crazy training process we have, no matter how absurd it is.
 
chipwhitley said:
This is so true it's ridiculous. Doctors are scared at even the thought of risk. That's why they're willing to jump through every hoop put in front of them in this crazy training process we have, no matter how absurd it is.
Click to expand...
While is is true we're a risk-averse crowd (you kinda should be given the stakes we work with), your 3rd sentence has no bearing on that. NOT jumping through the hoops of residency is just stupid, not risky.
 
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