Women Physicians and Family Life/Part Time Work/etc

[typeB-md]

I don't think we're letting people down necessarily. If patient transfers were more informative, then why should a change of doctors necessarily be a bad thing? If the next doc on shift can learn all about the patient's problem from the preceding doc or chart/ medical record, then in theory adequate care should not be an issue. There may be other issues here that I'm not aware of yet, as I'll be a med student in August so am not yet as aware of all the issues as I could be.

Part time work might make more of an impact in some specialties than others. For instance, maybe in dermatology it's less important for someone to be there the whole week. When the resident work week was reduced to officially 80 hours, lots of surgeons complained because they believed that they needed to be there for the patient for several days after surgery, for a total time of atleast 92 hours.

In my opinion, it seems like working part time may affect patients negatively more so in certain specialties, but that to make a blanket statement that working part time is bad for patients overall is not true. Keep in mind too that this field was and still is dominated by men who typically don't even consider working part time. The system is not set up for part timers but that doesn't mean it can't be adapted.

part-time is fine... stop arguing this point.

you have two obligations in life. 1) provide for your family 2) do your job well

however you accomplish 1 and 2 is your own modus operandi.

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[SarahGM]

so you want to be a part-time surgeon and a part-time mom... good deal. it's fine to be a part-time surgeon as it's your life and you can do whatever you want with it. but a part-time parent IMO is a waste of a parent.

and i disagree that medicine is a "calling." i think it can be done just fine as a job. and anyone who graduats medical school is worthy of "doctor."

but why be called "doctor" for the sake of it? is your ego deflated? for my $.02, though, i don't think surgery is a field that is well-set for a part-time lifestyle... especially with all the work you have to do to get there (but like i said, it's your life).

my main problem with the way some women act is that they make it seem like all men do is play around all day instead of work. men in the 50's/60's worked their asses off. if you want to say that staying at home doesn't make your life fulfilling, that's fine. but don't say it's not fair... because that's idiotic.

I don't want to be a surgeon. As I said before, I want to be a pediatrician or an internist in endocrinology.

 

[typeB-md]

So the traditional full-time father who leaves the child-rearing to the mother is a waste, huh?

no. as long as the child has a full-time parent that's fine. i was referring to the single-mother part-timer liek someone else kept bringing up

You created that argument, because nobody on this thread has listed that as her motivation.

you women keep saying "i want to have a career" like it's some trophy or something. if you want to work, that's fine... but i don't give you any more respect than i give a stay-at-homer just because now you'll have an official title

You want to talk about ego? Look in a mirror...

true. it's a shame none of you gals could ever meet my standards. a shame for you, that is.

You said yourself most men would rather not do housework to live in a clean and organized home. But I don't believe that anyone else on this thread has made any comments about men not doing work. You're making things up again, B. Stop hallucinating and read the posts.

i'm point out how women keep complaining about all the chores and stuff they have to do. like someone said "even when both work... yadda.... the woman does more"

well did anyone ever consider that maybe the woman inherently does more? maybe it's not a role-specific issue but a gender-issue.

i could say "when men and women live alone, the women do more." this is like the control of a study. and by using this, we can see that baseline activity doesn't change. so yest they do more, but they've always done more.

do you get my point? it's a flawed argument to imply that women do more because men make them. women do more because they normally do more. men do less because they normally do less. why would marriage change this?

 

[criminallyinane]

I don't want to be a surgeon. As I said before, I want to be a pediatrician or an internist in endocrinology.

However, a woman who does want to be a part-time surgeon is still a useful and productive member of society. I know a surgeon who works in the clinic two mornings a week and in the OR three afternoons + one morning a week. So she has two full days off each week. She takes a lot of cases, takes call for her group practice, and is a valued member of the group. No harm, no foul.

 

[typeB-md]

I'm sorry you're so insecure in your identity that you think men don't value independent partners. Key word is partner, not slave. Good luck finding a slave wife, though!!! And just my opinion, but I don't see many women on this thread thinking you're prime marriage material, yourself

alriiiiiighty... i guess we're defining "independent" now as mandating what others will do. i already pointed out that men naturally do less... and by making him do more, you're forcing your will upon him... and that's not very independent-like is it?

and i appreciate your optimism in thinking that i would ever date the silly feminist type. i want a girl that doesn't have to remind herself that she's equal. if you're really up to par (or even better than I), you won't ever have to mention it.

i've seen confident women before... just none in this thread. keep up the good work, ladies!

 

[typeB-md]

I don't want to be a surgeon. As I said before, I want to be a pediatrician or an internist in endocrinology.

maybe it's my naiveté, but i do believe to be an effective internist, you have to work a pretty good schedule... but remember, i'm a man and i'm likely just trying to hold you down.

 

[criminallyinane]

no. as long as the child has a full-time parent that's fine. i was referring to the single-mother part-timer liek someone else kept bringing up

Okay. I don't agree, but I understand your point.

you women keep saying "i want to have a career" like it's some trophy or something. if you want to work, that's fine... but i don't give you any more respect than i give a stay-at-homer just because now you'll have an official title

Believe it or not, some (most, I would say) women who want to work are not looking to do so for respect from you or any other man, but for the personal satisfaction that it brings them to have a career outside the home, as well as a family life inside the home. I don't consider my career a "trophy," I will consider it an accomplishment, the way I will consider my children and family to also be an accomplishment.

true. it's a shame none of you gals could ever meet my standards. a shame for you, that is.

I can assure you there are no tears shed for you here and I'll bet my fellow posters on this thread agree.

i'm point out how women keep complaining about all the chores and stuff they have to do. like someone said "even when both work... yadda.... the woman does more"

well did anyone ever consider that maybe the woman inherently does more? maybe it's not a role-specific issue but a gender-issue.

i could say "when men and women live alone, the women do more." this is like the control of a study. and by using this, we can see that baseline activity doesn't change. so yest they do more, but they've always done more.

That would work if it were universally true, maybe. And if you looked at what influences in a female's development shape her desire to keep a "nice house." I don't know about anyone else's family, but in my family, it seemed like the girls were always called upon to help mom with the dishes or cooking, and the boys were enlisted to shovel snow. Society does shape us to be housekeepers in some ways, and shapes men to not care as much.

But despite the societal influence, it isn't universally true that women "do more" than men. Right now I am trying to clean my very messy apartment, knowing that when I move in with my boyfriend this fall, he won't tolerate my mess. We are the opposite of what you propose: I am messy, he is neat as a pin. He cares about things looking and smelling nice, I just care that I have a place to put my sh-it. So I'd say you're making broad generalizations.

do you get my point? it's a flawed argument to imply that women do more because men make them. women do more because they normally do more. men do less because they normally do less. why would marriage change this?

Nobody said men "make" them, but when you have children, come on, you have to have a clean and sanitary home. If the men aren't willing to pitch in, a woman is not just going to let her children live in filth. Maybe women should try to be as you say, and "not care," and see how the men like living in a pigsty.

 

[typeB-md]

However, a woman who does want to be a part-time surgeon is still a useful and productive member of society. I know a surgeon who works in the clinic two mornings a week and in the OR three afternoons + one morning a week. So she has two full days off each week. She takes a lot of cases, takes call for her group practice, and is a valued member of the group. No harm, no foul.

if patients continue to go to her, then you are correct. in the end you must please the customer and if they are content, you can't complain.

 

[evade]

How come virtually no one in this thread is able to acknowledge that you don't have to choose just one thing to do with your life? Whoever it was who posted about getting the most "bang for your buck" in educating doctors, thus implying that it is worthless to educate female physicians because they are likely to take time off to have a family, is way off the mark. Being a physician is not like being the Pope. You don't have to dedicate your entire life to your career. Some people do and are happy doing so, and that's wonderful, but most people must live a balanced life in order to stay sane. Balanced lives include family, hobbies, and friends. People who put off their entire lives for the sake of their careers often hit middle age and start to regret what they've missed out on. Just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you can't do anything else with your life.

As to the whole bit about women, men and childrearing, here is my take. Relationships are all about proper division of labor. I'm gonna run with the traditional heterosexual married couple for simplicity's sake. Let's say the couple wants to have kids. Someone is going to have to work, and someone is going to have to care for the children. The labor can be divided one of any number of ways. The man can work, and the woman can stay home. The woman can work, and the man can stay home. One parent can work part-time, the other full-time, and childcare can be involved. Both parents can work part-time. Now, if you're going to have kids, whether you're a man or a woman, you have to accept that you will make sacrifices for them. It's all part of the job description for parenting. If both the man and women refuse to give up their time for children; if they both refuse to take time off, work part time, or otherwise take time off from their careers, they really should think twice about having kids.

 

[criminallyinane]

alriiiiiighty... i guess we're defining "independent" now as mandating what others will do. i already pointed out that men naturally do less... and by making him do more, you're forcing your will upon him... and that's not very independent-like is it?

In my relationship, it is my boyfriend who has to make ME clean up. So... sorry. Your argument doesn't work.

and i appreciate your optimism in thinking that i would ever date the silly feminist type. i want a girl that doesn't have to remind herself that she's equal. if you're really up to par (or even better than I), you won't ever have to mention it.

I don't mention it. I merely know what I want to do with my life and don't feel I need to hold myself back from having what I want just because society wants me to fit into a certain mold.

i've seen confident women before... just none in this thread. keep up the good work, ladies!

You talk nonsense all the time.

 

[criminallyinane]

if patients continue to go to her, then you are correct. in the end you must please the customer and if they are content, you can't complain.

Her patients might not even realize she works part-time. None of the physicians in that group are in the clinic every day because they have busy OR schedules. So needing to schedule on certain days to get certain doctors is just how that practice works. I think her patients go to her because they like her and she's a good doc, not because they approve or disapprove of her schedule.

 

[SarahGM]

i've seen confident women before... just none in this thread. keep up the good work, ladies!

This thread has completely degenerated. Once again, as I've said, you've proven nothing except that you have an insatiable desire for attention.

We'd all do a great service to ourselves if we just ignore him from now on.

 

[typeB-md]

Believe it or not, some (most, I would say) women who want to work are not looking to do so for respect from you or any other man, but for the personal satisfaction that it brings them to have a career outside the home, as well as a family life inside the home. I don't consider my career a "trophy," I will consider it an accomplishment, the way I will consider my children and family to also be an accomplishment.

doing something chiefly for personal satisfaction = selfish. you should have a job to provide for your family. there is no other justification.

I can assure you there are no tears shed for you here and I'll bet my fellow posters on this thread agree.

ditto.

That would work if it were universally true, maybe. And if you looked at what influences in a female's development shape her desire to keep a "nice house." I don't know about anyone else's family, but in my family, it seemed like the girls were always called upon to help mom with the dishes or cooking, and the boys were enlisted to shovel snow. Society does shape us to be housekeepers in some ways, and shapes men to not care as much.

But despite the societal influence, it isn't universally true that women "do more" than men. Right now I am trying to clean my very messy apartment, knowing that when I move in with my boyfriend this fall, he won't tolerate my mess. We are the opposite of what you propose: I am messy, he is neat as a pin. He cares about things looking and smelling nice, I just care that I have a place to put my sh-it. So I'd say you're making broad generalizations.

the old "my parents were bad and made the way i am today." it is universal that women keep a cleaner house than men. men tend to their cars and stereo because those are the real things that need to be in order. as long as we can eat off of it, it's good enough. and way to be dating a girl. and i'm not making broad generalizations, you are making debate over a rarity.

Nobody said men "make" them, but when you have children, come on, you have to have a clean and sanitary home. If the men aren't willing to pitch in, a woman is not just going to let her children live in filth. Maybe women should try to be as you say, and "not care," and see how the men like living in a pigsty.

you'll be in for a treat. you're not going to beat a man in the game of pigsty-house. well, maybe with that girl you're dating... i wouldn't bet on him winning... :girlyman:

 

[typeB-md]

As to the whole bit about women, men and childrearing, here is my take. Relationships are all about proper division of labor. I'm gonna run with the traditional heterosexual married couple for simplicity's sake. Let's say the couple wants to have kids. Someone is going to have to work, and someone is going to have to care for the children. The labor can be divided one of any number of ways. The man can work, and the woman can stay home. The woman can work, and the man can stay home. One parent can work part-time, the other full-time, and childcare can be involved. Both parents can work part-time. Now, if you're going to have kids, whether you're a man or a woman, you have to accept that you will make sacrifices for them. It's all part of the job description for parenting. If both the man and women refuse to give up their time for children; if they both refuse to take time off, work part time, or otherwise take time off from their careers, they really should think twice about having kids.

best post of the thread. listen to evade.

 

[typeB-md]

In my relationship, it is my boyfriend who has to make ME clean up. So... sorry. Your argument doesn't work.

again, this is the rarity. i don't know a single hetero male that is more meticulous than his g/f... in fact i have never know one... nor have they ever known one... nor have their friends ever known one... etc. until i have covered the nation

I don't mention it. I merely know what I want to do with my life and don't feel I need to hold myself back from having what I want just because society wants me to fit into a certain mold.

so how's that "career" thing treating you. like i already said, i don't doubt women are any less capable than men when it comes to intellectual tasks... but some of the ways you ladies present yourselves is a bit silly.

 

[jeg5q]

How come virtually no one in this thread is able to acknowledge that you don't have to choose just one thing to do with your life? Whoever it was who posted about getting the most "bang for your buck" in educating doctors, thus implying that it is worthless to educate female physicians because they are likely to take time off to have a family, is way off the mark. Being a physician is not like being the Pope. You don't have to dedicate your entire life to your career. Some people do and are happy doing so, and that's wonderful, but most people must live a balanced life in order to stay sane. Balanced lives include family, hobbies, and friends. People who put off their entire lives for the sake of their careers often hit middle age and start to regret what they've missed out on. Just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you can't do anything else with your life.

As to the whole bit about women, men and childrearing, here is my take. Relationships are all about proper division of labor. I'm gonna run with the traditional heterosexual married couple for simplicity's sake. Let's say the couple wants to have kids. Someone is going to have to work, and someone is going to have to care for the children. The labor can be divided one of any number of ways. The man can work, and the woman can stay home. The woman can work, and the man can stay home. One parent can work part-time, the other full-time, and childcare can be involved. Both parents can work part-time. Now, if you're going to have kids, whether you're a man or a woman, you have to accept that you will make sacrifices for them. It's all part of the job description for parenting. If both the man and women refuse to give up their time for children; if they both refuse to take time off, work part time, or otherwise take time off from their careers, they really should think twice about having kids.

That was me. And I think you missed my point. I don't think it is worthless, just worth less. Taxes subsidize tuition costs therefore medical educations. With a need to educate more physicians on the same dollar, I was simply pointing out that as a state/taxpayer we get less for our money when educating women on average. We get a shorter career on average.

 

[criminallyinane]

doing something chiefly for personal satisfaction = selfish. you should have a job to provide for your family. there is no other justification.

That should be understood, it doesn't need to be explicitly stated. Of course we work to provide for our families. If we didn't feel the need to do that, then we would just get a job at McDonald's and live in a trailer.

the old "my parents were bad and made the way i am today."

My parents were fantastic. They were more traditional than I am, is all, and my mother tended to have the girls help with cooking and the boys help with physical tasks. It doesn't piss me off and it didn't piss me off then, either. It's just the way it was. My parents, again, were excellent. So banish that argument from your head.

it is universal that women keep a cleaner house than men. men tend to their cars and stereo because those are the real things that need to be in order. as long as we can eat off of it, it's good enough. and way to be dating a girl. and i'm not making broad generalizations, you are making debate over a rarity.

Oh my. You are round the twist.

you'll be in for a treat. you're not going to beat a man in the game of pigsty-house. well, maybe with that girl you're dating... i wouldn't bet on him winning... :girlyman:

A true man doesn't need to be a filthy, belching, beer-guzzling, rude, arrogant, sports-obsessed typical American to be a man. You are such a loser.

Taking Sarah's advice and peacing out of this thread now to leave typeBmd to his own devices...

 

[typeB-md]

Her patients might not even realize she works part-time. None of the physicians in that group are in the clinic every day because they have busy OR schedules. So needing to schedule on certain days to get certain doctors is just how that practice works. I think her patients go to her because they like her and she's a good doc, not because they approve or disapprove of her schedule.

she and her schedule are not separate entities. some people will wait many months to see a good physician.

 

[SarahGM]

With a need to educate more physicians on the same dollar, I was simply pointing out that as a state/taxpayer we get less for our money when educating women on average. We get a shorter career on average.

And yet by taking time off to rear our children, we get fewer potential psychopaths...

 

[typeB-md]

This thread has completely degenerated. Once again, as I've said, you've proven nothing except that you have an insatiable desire for attention.

We'd all do a great service to ourselves if we just ignore him from now on.

what are you talking about... we're addressing key issues in the male/female work debate.

i sense some jealousy... are you a little green this evening???

 

[jeg5q]

And yet by taking time off to rear our children, we get fewer potential psychopaths...

I don't see how this is relevant. Men can take time off to raise children if they decided to.

 

[tinkerbelle]

And yet by taking time off to rear our children, we get fewer potential psychopaths...

That probably true

This thread cracks me up. At any rate, I still think being a part time doctor is an awesome idea. You get the best of both worlds. You get to exercise your mind and take care of patients and you also don't have to worry about becoming a stranger to your kids. And for people who think that women should chose either being a professional vs. staying at home, have you ever considered that working a little can make a person a better mother? I love kids, but I might go nuts if I had to take care of them and clean 24/7.

I didn't read every single post, so if someone already said this, I'm sorry

 

[Nakhrewali]

How come virtually no one in this thread is able to acknowledge that you don't have to choose just one thing to do with your life? Whoever it was who posted about getting the most "bang for your buck" in educating doctors, thus implying that it is worthless to educate female physicians because they are likely to take time off to have a family, is way off the mark. Being a physician is not like being the Pope. You don't have to dedicate your entire life to your career. Some people do and are happy doing so, and that's wonderful, but most people must live a balanced life in order to stay sane. Balanced lives include family, hobbies, and friends. People who put off their entire lives for the sake of their careers often hit middle age and start to regret what they've missed out on. Just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you can't do anything else with your life.

As to the whole bit about women, men and childrearing, here is my take. Relationships are all about proper division of labor. I'm gonna run with the traditional heterosexual married couple for simplicity's sake. Let's say the couple wants to have kids. Someone is going to have to work, and someone is going to have to care for the children. The labor can be divided one of any number of ways. The man can work, and the woman can stay home. The woman can work, and the man can stay home. One parent can work part-time, the other full-time, and childcare can be involved. Both parents can work part-time. Now, if you're going to have kids, whether you're a man or a woman, you have to accept that you will make sacrifices for them. It's all part of the job description for parenting. If both the man and women refuse to give up their time for children; if they both refuse to take time off, work part time, or otherwise take time off from their careers, they really should think twice about having kids.

thank you. at least there are some normal people on this thread of extremes. if you aren't ready to compromise your career for your kids, DON'T FREAKIN' HAVE ANY. man or woman.

 

[wends]

it will be hard to balance work and family for both the husband and wife. im not too worried about cause i figure i'll figure it out when i get there and work things out. my mom has always worked since i was born and so my grandma helped out. my mom will gladly help me as well, so im thankful to have people for support. all i know is that i want a career and family and i'll have to make sacrifices to maintain a balance. im working part time when i have to and when the kiddies grow up i'll go back to full time. the world is changing and society is more amenable to parent's needs. paternity time off is very common too. hospitals are changing policy to give more maternal leave. we all just have to do what we have to do. we'll figure it out when we get there. just follow your heart and instincts.

 

[Paws]

Oh, c'mon Type-B, do you have to try and hijack this thread as well?

SarahGM had a great topic and we were able to start out with some pretty neat comments. I was really pleased we had gone as far as we did without someone coming in and trying to make trouble.

So ... please don't steal this thread just to cause trouble where there doesn't need to be any. Leave it for those who really want to talk about what Sarah originally brought up. It is an important subject. If you could contribute in a more appropriate way, that would be a good thing. Most people contribute one or two thoughts and then allow others to 'speak.' Most people do not take all the attention. Remember, it's a dialogue - meaning a back and forth contribution of relevant ideas among many people. Not an argument or a harange.

 

[rugirlie]

Ok so just throwing in my two cents as a woman who is about to start med school. I honestly don't see how its possible to do both without one suffering. I am career driven and so kids are not a priority of mine. However, more importantly, if I were to have kids, I'd want to raise them and I don't see how you can expect to do that in this field. I don't want daycare to raise my kids or my parents or anyone else. If i'm gonna have kids, I'm gonna do it all the way. I know there are plenty of women out there who are living lives that contradict what I'm writing, but for me, I don't see it working out unless I sacrifice one or the other.

 

[Trismegistus4]

To me, the real question is, why do women want to work at all? I've never wanted to work--for many years my dream was to hit the lottery and spend the rest of my life living like a retired person. I only "grew up" enough to want to become a doctor because I knew I wanted to get married and have kids, and I knew most women wouldn't marry an unambitious bum, and even if I found a woman willing to let me be the stay-at-home parent, our society expects a "real man" to work full time and I couldn't stand living my life being looked down upon. But if we lived in a society where it was normal and expected for men to be the ones to stay home, you bet your sweet patoot that's what I'd do. Deep, deep down, why the heck would anyone want to work when you could be the one to see the kids' first steps or first word? Why do women want to leave the house 5 days a week (more, if you're a doctor) and deal with the stress of a demanding workplace, when you have the opportunity for your day to look more like: get up in the morning, pack your kids' lunches, kiss your sweetie goodbye, lie down for a nap in the quiet of an empty house, go to the gym, get together with a friend or two and gab over lunch, do some laundry, read a book, make dinner, spend time with family, go to bed? For Pete's sake, when it comes down to that life vs. work... there's no contest.

 

[rugirlie]

To me, the real question is, why do women want to work at all? I've never wanted to work--for many years my dream was to hit the lottery and spend the rest of my life living like a retired person. I only "grew up" enough to want to become a doctor because I knew I wanted to get married and have kids, and I knew most women wouldn't marry an unambitious bum, and even if I found a woman willing to let me be the stay-at-home parent, our society expects a "real man" to work full time and I couldn't stand living my life being looked down upon. But if we lived in a society where it was normal and expected for men to be the ones to stay home, you bet your sweet patoot that's what I'd do. Deep, deep down, why the heck would anyone want to work when you could be the one to see the kids' first steps or first word? Why do women want to leave the house 5 days a week (more, if you're a doctor) and deal with the stress of a demanding workplace, when you have the opportunity for your day to look more like: get up in the morning, pack your kids' lunches, kiss your sweetie goodbye, lie down for a nap in the quiet of an empty house, go to the gym, get together with a friend or two and gab over lunch, do some laundry, read a book, make dinner, spend time with family, go to bed? For Pete's sake, when it comes down to that life vs. work... there's no contest.

I find this post very interesting... especially because I really believe that if you had the opportunity to live this out for just one week, you'd start to understand why women wouldn't want to do it... or at least women like me. That may sound nice and relaxing but its also pretty boring and unfulfilling... its like whenever you're in school and you get all excited about summer vacation and then it happens and you're going crazy after just a week of being home doing nothing... it sucks.. you need purpose in life and a source of accomplishment to make you feel fulfilled and good about yourself... for a lot of people, this comes from having a good home and kids but you have to also remember that for a lot of mothers, once their kids grow up, they feel lost and useless.... hence, there is a good reason to want to work especially if its something you love doing

 

[criminallyinane]

To me, the real question is, why do women want to work at all? I've never wanted to work--for many years my dream was to hit the lottery and spend the rest of my life living like a retired person. I only "grew up" enough to want to become a doctor because I knew I wanted to get married and have kids, and I knew most women wouldn't marry an unambitious bum, and even if I found a woman willing to let me be the stay-at-home parent, our society expects a "real man" to work full time and I couldn't stand living my life being looked down upon. But if we lived in a society where it was normal and expected for men to be the ones to stay home, you bet your sweet patoot that's what I'd do. Deep, deep down, why the heck would anyone want to work when you could be the one to see the kids' first steps or first word? Why do women want to leave the house 5 days a week (more, if you're a doctor) and deal with the stress of a demanding workplace, when you have the opportunity for your day to look more like: get up in the morning, pack your kids' lunches, kiss your sweetie goodbye, lie down for a nap in the quiet of an empty house, go to the gym, get together with a friend or two and gab over lunch, do some laundry, read a book, make dinner, spend time with family, go to bed? For Pete's sake, when it comes down to that life vs. work... there's no contest.

Where, in that scenario, is the childcare? Most stay-at-home moms I know are not using their days to grab lunch, nap and go to the gym; stay-at-home parenting is a FULL time job. To imply that stay-at-home mothers use their days as basically leisure time is to denigrate their job. With that said, I don't want that kind of life; I want kids and a career OUTSIDE of the home. I'd get bored and frustrated being in the house all day and would want to use other talents and parts of my brain, in addition to those required for parenting. I like science; why would I give that up to be a full-time parent if I can instead split the childcare with my husband and a nanny? I like working with adults, not just kids. I like medicine. I want to have a family where both parents are parents and both spouses are contributing to the family income. I don't want split roles.

 

[jillenekc]

A friend also said that there was a book out there about women in medicine that shows that women can work part time and have more flexible schedules. I don't know the name of it but maybe others here do?

Not sure if someone has already posted about this, but the book you are talking about is called "This side of doctoring" edited by Eliza Lo Chin. It is a compilation of short essays written by women in the field. the essays cover many different topics; juggling career and family is one of them. I highly recommend checking it out!

 

[typeB-md]

Oh, c'mon Type-B, do you have to try and hijack this thread as well?

SarahGM had a great topic and we were able to start out with some pretty neat comments. I was really pleased we had gone as far as we did without someone coming in and trying to make trouble.

So ... please don't steal this thread just to cause trouble where there doesn't need to be any. Leave it for those who really want to talk about what Sarah originally brought up. It is an important subject. If you could contribute in a more appropriate way, that would be a good thing. Most people contribute one or two thoughts and then allow others to 'speak.' Most people do not take all the attention. Remember, it's a dialogue - meaning a back and forth contribution of relevant ideas among many people. Not an argument or a harange.

i'm sorry that you feel my contributions were "less helpful" than the other contributions. some of the ladies in this thread are a little misguided in their beliefs, and i was trying to help them out. afterall, the point of a thread is to learn, right?

guys (in the non-sex-specific sense) can't we all just get along??

 

[typeB-md]

Ok so just throwing in my two cents as a woman who is about to start med school. I honestly don't see how its possible to do both without one suffering. I am career driven and so kids are not a priority of mine. However, more importantly, if I were to have kids, I'd want to raise them and I don't see how you can expect to do that in this field. I don't want daycare to raise my kids or my parents or anyone else. If i'm gonna have kids, I'm gonna do it all the way. I know there are plenty of women out there who are living lives that contradict what I'm writing, but for me, I don't see it working out unless I sacrifice one or the other.

Paws.. you better get in here... she's backing up what i was saying... obviously she is just trying to hijack the thread!!!

silly comment aside, i agree.

 

[typeB-md]

I find this post very interesting... especially because I really believe that if you had the opportunity to live this out for just one week, you'd start to understand why women wouldn't want to do it... or at least women like me. That may sound nice and relaxing but its also pretty boring and unfulfilling... its like whenever you're in school and you get all excited about summer vacation and then it happens and you're going crazy after just a week of being home doing nothing... it sucks.. you need purpose in life and a source of accomplishment to make you feel fulfilled and good about yourself... for a lot of people, this comes from having a good home and kids but you have to also remember that for a lot of mothers, once their kids grow up, they feel lost and useless.... hence, there is a good reason to want to work especially if its something you love doing

i think you could become a renaissance man/woman. just start buying all kinds of books and learning everything there is to know. you could take up some awesome hobbies and keep yourself occupied with fun stuff. maybe take up golf, or hockey, or skydiving. you could learn about architecture and keep up on current world events. there is plenty i can think of to do.

your analogy to summer is not very appropriate because in summer, we don't have enough time to really do something different. if you gave me years off, i could put together some really cool stuff. not to mention i wouldn't even have to work to make the money to do these things. i could even be on an allowance.

 

[typeB-md]

Where, in that scenario, is the childcare? Most stay-at-home moms I know are not using their days to grab lunch, nap and go to the gym; stay-at-home parenting is a FULL time job. To imply that stay-at-home mothers use their days as basically leisure time is to denigrate their job. With that said, I don't want that kind of life; I want kids and a career OUTSIDE of the home. I'd get bored and frustrated being in the house all day and would want to use other talents and parts of my brain, in addition to those required for parenting. I like science; why would I give that up to be a full-time parent if I can instead split the childcare with my husband and a nanny? I like working with adults, not just kids. I like medicine. I want to have a family where both parents are parents and both spouses are contributing to the family income. I don't want split roles.

remember that once the kid hits school age, you have 8 hours a day of leisure. that's plenty of time to get together with your buddies and play some ball, maybe watch a couple games on t.v., maybe grill out for a bit, take some pilates lessons.

and as we got our monthly allowance, we'd spend a couple hours of the day following the stock market and making some good investments. i bet we'd even match the woman's salary at some point.

women don't want to give us that opportunity because they'd see how great it really is. think about it, after 6 years of putting in work (that's even less than going to medical school and residency), you have 8 hours off each day.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I find this post very interesting... especially because I really believe that if you had the opportunity to live this out for just one week, you'd start to understand why women wouldn't want to do it... or at least women like me. That may sound nice and relaxing but its also pretty boring and unfulfilling... its like whenever you're in school and you get all excited about summer vacation and then it happens and you're going crazy after just a week of being home doing nothing... it sucks.. you need purpose in life and a source of accomplishment to make you feel fulfilled and good about yourself...

Indeed, this is a pretty common reply, and it would be presumptuous of me not to accept others' descriptions of their own feelings at face value, but being bored and unfulfilled is a feeling I don't understand at all. When I was in school, I loved spending summer (and Christmas) break just sitting around doing nothing. The notion that those breaks would or could drive me crazy was the furthest thing from my mind. The only thing that drove me crazy was having to go back to school.

Where, in that scenario, is the childcare? Most stay-at-home moms I know are not using their days to grab lunch, nap and go to the gym; stay-at-home parenting is a FULL time job. To imply that stay-at-home mothers use their days as basically leisure time is to denigrate their job.

First, my scenario assumed that our hypothetical woman had reached the point in life where her youngest child was age 5 or so, and thus in school all day. Once that happens, you have the kids out of your hair for >8 hours a day. You'd have to have an awfully big house to spend 8 hours a day doing housework.

Now, you say, what about when the kids are younger? Say you have 3 kids spaced 3 years apart each. Assuming that the youngest starts school at age 5 (I'm assuming all-day kindergarten is universal by now), that's 11 years from the birth of the eldest to the day the youngest starts being gone all day. OK, 11 years is a pretty sizeable chunk of your life. And yes, it can be difficult trying to juggle a crying infant and a tantrum-throwing toddler while doing the grocery shopping or the housework. But what people seem to forget is that the most difficult moments aren't the most frequent... there are also plenty of times when the kids are playing quietly or napping or at friends' houses, and you can do other things during those times. Granted, it can be difficult to go out and thus do things like go to the gym, but you can at least do housework, bill-paying, checkbook-balancing, etc. Kids don't need someone standing over them 24/7.

But what it really all comes down to, for me, is that even the worst, most difficult, most stressful parts of being a full-time parent are an absolute cakewalk in comparison to dealing with the demands of a workplace. I would much rather spend time with my kids, my family, at home, than I would go out into the world and deal with a "real job" and all that it entails.

With that said, I don't want that kind of life; I want kids and a career OUTSIDE of the home. I'd get bored and frustrated being in the house all day and would want to use other talents and parts of my brain, in addition to those required for parenting. I like science;

Maybe to some small degree I can understand what you're saying, but it seems to me that those desires could be better and more easily fulfilled by reading books, doing crossword puzzles, taking up a hobby or two, or taking an occasional course at the community college, than by subjecting yourself to work.

why would I give that up to be a full-time parent if I can instead split the childcare with my husband and a nanny? I like working with adults, not just kids. I like medicine. I want to have a family where both parents are parents and both spouses are contributing to the family income. I don't want split roles.

I'm with typeB-md on this one. You'll be singing a different tune when you hit 35, still unmarried because of the demands and conditions you've placed on potential suitors.

 

[rugirlie]

Indeed, this is a pretty common reply, and it would be presumptuous of me not to accept others' descriptions of their own feelings at face value, but being bored and unfulfilled is a feeling I don't understand at all. When I was in school, I loved spending summer (and Christmas) break just sitting around doing nothing. The notion that those breaks would or could drive me crazy was the furthest thing from my mind. The only thing that drove me crazy was having to go back to school.

This is where you and me differ then. I am currently going nuts waiting for med school to start. How do you not get bored???

 

[lorelei]

Ok so just throwing in my two cents as a woman who is about to start med school. I honestly don't see how its possible to do both without one suffering. I am career driven and so kids are not a priority of mine. However, more importantly, if I were to have kids, I'd want to raise them and I don't see how you can expect to do that in this field. I don't want daycare to raise my kids or my parents or anyone else. If i'm gonna have kids, I'm gonna do it all the way. I know there are plenty of women out there who are living lives that contradict what I'm writing, but for me, I don't see it working out unless I sacrifice one or the other.

So do you think that men who are doctors and have kids are sacrificing one or the other?

I think it's an interesting question, actually. I do think that anyone who chooses a career where they're working 80-100 hour weeks regularly is sacrificing family life, and I don't think it's a good idea to have children if you're going to do that - whether you're a man or a woman.

But for a more reasonable work week, say 40-50 hours (which I think is doable in less demanding specialties, post residency obviously) it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know where the dividing line is, though. 60 hours? 70? Although I'm largely career-driven, I do want kids, and that means I won't be going into a specialty that keeps me in the hospital 14 hours a day all week long. Balancing things out is key.

I think that's an important consideration for both genders - my boyfriend has said he doesn't want to do corporate law, because he'd miss out on too much family stuff, and my dad is only now going all-out at work, since all the kids are out of the house.

 

[criminallyinane]

Indeed, this is a pretty common reply, and it would be presumptuous of me not to accept others' descriptions of their own feelings at face value, but being bored and unfulfilled is a feeling I don't understand at all. When I was in school, I loved spending summer (and Christmas) break just sitting around doing nothing. The notion that those breaks would or could drive me crazy was the furthest thing from my mind. The only thing that drove me crazy was having to go back to school.


First, my scenario assumed that our hypothetical woman had reached the point in life where her youngest child was age 5 or so, and thus in school all day. Once that happens, you have the kids out of your hair for >8 hours a day. You'd have to have an awfully big house to spend 8 hours a day doing housework.

Now, you say, what about when the kids are younger? Say you have 3 kids spaced 3 years apart each. Assuming that the youngest starts school at age 5 (I'm assuming all-day kindergarten is universal by now), that's 11 years from the birth of the eldest to the day the youngest starts being gone all day. OK, 11 years is a pretty sizeable chunk of your life. And yes, it can be difficult trying to juggle a crying infant and a tantrum-throwing toddler while doing the grocery shopping or the housework. But what people seem to forget is that the most difficult moments aren't the most frequent... there are also plenty of times when the kids are playing quietly or napping or at friends' houses, and you can do other things during those times. Granted, it can be difficult to go out and thus do things like go to the gym, but you can at least do housework, bill-paying, checkbook-balancing, etc. Kids don't need someone standing over them 24/7.

Housekeeping, billpaying, and balancing the checkbook during breaks from taking care of an infant and a toddler is not my idea of a stimulating life. I'll enjoy taking care of my kids, but the rest of it is chores, and I will be splitting those down the middle with my husband. I hate housework; why would I devote my life to housekeeping tasks and billpaying?

But what it really all comes down to, for me, is that even the worst, most difficult, most stressful parts of being a full-time parent are an absolute cakewalk in comparison to dealing with the demands of a workplace. I would much rather spend time with my kids, my family, at home, than I would go out into the world and deal with a "real job" and all that it entails.

Then you do it, but don't assume women should just because we're the ones squeezing the kids out.

Maybe to some small degree I can understand what you're saying, but it seems to me that those desires could be better and more easily fulfilled by reading books, doing crossword puzzles, taking up a hobby or two, or taking an occasional course at the community college, than by subjecting yourself to work.

What? Are you saying that women should stimulate themselves with those activities instead of having a big, bad, tough job? That kind of life would be BORING to me. I don't need to justify wanting to work instead of wanting to do crossword puzzles or taking classes at community colleges. I am an intelligent woman; I don't need to take feng shui classes to stimulate me, I need real work and academia.

I'm with typeB-md on this one. You'll be singing a different tune when you hit 35, still unmarried because of the demands and conditions you've placed on potential suitors.

Thank you for the insight into my life; however, I have a man who is secure in his identity and who loves me the way I am. He would hate having a wife who wanted to go to the gym and do crossword puzzles for the rest of her life, and we're a good match. Not all men think the way you do (thank the lord!)

 

[typeB-md]

This is where you and me differ then. I am currently going nuts waiting for med school to start. How do you not get bored???

do you not have any hobbies? is school the only think that you have going for you?

i remember one summer, i made my own go kart. i bought my own welder, constructed a tube frame, used a lawn mower engine... and voila!

another time, i cycled 1000 miles through the midwest.

currently i am learning to speak chinese.

but if you only have school going for you, then i can see how you'd get bored.

 

[typeB-md]

Housekeeping, billpaying, and balancing the checkbook during breaks from taking care of an infant and a toddler is not my idea of a stimulating life. I'll enjoy taking care of my kids, but the rest of it is chores, and I will be splitting those down the middle with my husband. I hate housework; why would I devote my life to housekeeping tasks and billpaying?

i believe you can autopay your bills now. Housekeeping... i've already explained how most men "housekeep." Please don't think of your "boy"friend as a typical male. Just out of curiousity, how tall is he, how much does he weigh, and does he partake in outdoor/gym activities?

What? Are you saying that women should stimulate themselves with those activities instead of having a big, bad, tough job? That kind of life would be BORING to me. I don't need to justify wanting to work instead of wanting to do crossword puzzles or taking classes at community colleges. I am an intelligent woman; I don't need to take feng shui classes to stimulate me, I need real work and academia.

i guess you're not a fan of independent study. i think there is plenty of stuff to learn; feng shui not on this list, however. you don't like painting? you don't like studying ancient civilization? no interest in world politics?

Thank you for the insight into my life; however, I have a man who is secure in his identity and who loves me the way I am. He would hate having a wife who wanted to go to the gym and do crossword puzzles for the rest of her life, and we're a good match. Not all men think the way you do (thank the lord!)

he would hate having a girl who wanted to go to the gym? i guess that answers my question from above. i guess he wants to keep you weak so that he can physically overpower you if necessary.

 

[criminallyinane]

Excellent job at twisting everyone's words again, B.

i believe you can autopay your bills now. Housekeeping... i've already explained how most men "housekeep."

Men and women who are married are going to have to agree about the level of cleanliness they want in their home, and then work together to make that happen. If a typical man doesn't WANT to housekeep, then he should do other chores around the house to balance his wife's workload.

Please don't think of your "boy"friend as a typical male. Just out of curiousity, how tall is he, how much does he weigh, and does he partake in outdoor/gym activities?

I don't see how his height, weight, or athletic interests have anything to do with this discussion, nor do they have anything to do with his "masculinity." Your immaturity reeks. He's tall enough, weighs enough, and enjoys the physical activities that he enjoys. Women enjoy physical activity, too, you know.

i guess you're not a fan of independent study. i think there is plenty of stuff to learn; feng shui not on this list, however. you don't like painting? you don't like studying ancient civilization? no interest in world politics?

Why don't you devote your life to the study of these things, as opposed to insulting women who would rather work in medicine than take classes in ancient civ? I went to college to explore my interests and developed an interest in medicine, and now choose to pursue it. There is no more or less value in a woman who does that than in a woman who takes continuing ed for the rest of her life.

he would hate having a girl who wanted to go to the gym? i guess that answers my question from above. i guess he wants to keep you weak so that he can physically overpower you if necessary.

Your immaturity is astounding. I never said he didn't want a woman who enjoys working out, but he also wouldn't want a gym bunny who only goes to the gym and lunches with the girls. He wants a woman who leads an interesting life, not a trophy wife who will take care of his house and kids and look perfect all the time. You know, a real woman instead of a Stepford wife.

You are obviously just trolling now... so pathetic.

 

[SarahGM]

Maybe to some small degree I can understand what you're saying, but it seems to me that those desires could be better and more easily fulfilled by reading books, doing crossword puzzles, taking up a hobby or two, or taking an occasional course at the community college, than by subjecting yourself to work.

But they key facet you're missing in this scenario is having contributed a bit of yourself to greater society. Having the satisfaction of knowing, when you're on your deathbed or whatever, that you have made this world a better place by having inhabited it. Personally, I might find it entertaining to all the aforementioned above... but at the end of the day, do I really feel useful to anyone? No. It's that sense of fulfillment that many people find from a job.

 

[SarahGM]

Criminallyinane... don't give him the time of day. Keep on keepin' on-- sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders!

 

[criminallyinane]

Criminallyinane... don't give him the time of day. Keep on keepin' on-- sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders!

Thanks Sarah... sometimes I just can't hold myself back but you're right, I have to try not to get tangled up in it. Take care.

 

[typeB-md]

Men and women who are married are going to have to agree about the level of cleanliness they want in their home, and then work together to make that happen. If a typical man doesn't WANT to housekeep, then he should do other chores around the house to balance his wife's workload.

if you are going to make him compromise on the cleanliness of the house, it's only fair that you compromise on the "having a career" thing. i know, i know... i'm just saying, though.

I don't see how his height, weight, or athletic interests have anything to do with this discussion, nor do they have anything to do with his "masculinity." Your immaturity reeks. He's tall enough, weighs enough, and enjoys the physical activities that he enjoys. Women enjoy physical activity, too, you know.

in other words, he's not athletic. i can see now why he feels the way he does. get that man on a cycle and we'll get him thinking straight real quick-like. being strong and large has everything to do with masculinity, to think otherwise is to be in denial. by skirting the issue, you've let me know that you don't think too highly of his physical characteristics. but then again, type-A women usually like to have men that are easily manipulated.

Why don't you devote your life to the study of these things, as opposed to insulting women who would rather work in medicine than take classes in ancient civ? I went to college to explore my interests and developed an interest in medicine, and now choose to pursue it. There is no more or less value in a woman who does that than in a woman who takes continuing ed for the rest of her life.

i think we have a misunderstanding. i am FOR women working. i was just giving my argument for staying at home. again, my primary concern in life is providing for my family... however you do that is fine. i was just saying that "if you stay at home (fill in the blank)." Women are equally as capable as men, not even a question in my book.

Your immaturity is astounding. I never said he didn't want a woman who enjoys working out, but he also wouldn't want a gym bunny who only goes to the gym and lunches with the girls. He wants a woman who leads an interesting life, not a trophy wife who will take care of his house and kids and look perfect all the time. You know, a real woman instead of a Stepford wife.

You are obviously making some valid points... kudos.

who's to define interesting. i think a fit woman who can tell me about world politics and ancient civilizations is just as exciting as a woman who is a full/part-time doctor. just because you stay at home, that does not make you subordinate. i have known many women that have blown me away in science and english, many went on to become teachers. are they "less interesting" because they get summers off and only work 40 hours a week?

 

[typeB-md]

But they key facet you're missing in this scenario is having contributed a bit of yourself to greater society. Having the satisfaction of knowing, when you're on your deathbed or whatever, that you have made this world a better place by having inhabited it. Personally, I might find it entertaining to all the aforementioned above... but at the end of the day, do I really feel useful to anyone? No. It's that sense of fulfillment that many people find from a job.

blah blah blah... the whole contribute to society deal is a childish fantasy. only very few people will "make this world a better place." so what if you save a few people... if they don't go on to make this world a better place, you've all failed.

and to say "but at the end of hte day, do i really feel useful to anyone? No" i think you have failed as a parent and demeaned the life of a stay at home parent. if you don't save anyone's life but end up meaning the world to you son/daughter... i think you have far exceeded your purpose on this planet. you are one of those types that values others over your own family. family first, everyone else second.

 

[criminallyinane]

and to say "but at the end of hte day, do i really feel useful to anyone? No" i think you have failed as a parent and demeaned the life of a stay at home parent. if you don't save anyone's life but end up meaning the world to you son/daughter... i think you have far exceeded your purpose on this planet. you are one of those types that values others over your own family. family first, everyone else second.

Okay, I can't resist. Why are you becoming a doctor, B? Why not be a stay at home Dad and take classes at the local comm college? After all, "saving a few lives," doesn't mean anything right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by criminallyinane

Men and women who are married are going to have to agree about the level of cleanliness they want in their home, and then work together to make that happen. If a typical man doesn't WANT to housekeep, then he should do other chores around the house to balance his wife's workload.

if you are going to make him compromise on the cleanliness of the house, it's only fair that you compromise on the "having a career" thing. i know, i know... i'm just saying, though.

You really don't get it, do you? My having a career is not a concession on the part of my husband because it's not "a man's job" to have a career. his helping with housework is not a concession because it's not "a woman's job" to do the housework.

Quote:
I don't see how his height, weight, or athletic interests have anything to do with this discussion, nor do they have anything to do with his "masculinity." Your immaturity reeks. He's tall enough, weighs enough, and enjoys the physical activities that he enjoys. Women enjoy physical activity, too, you know.

in other words, he's not athletic. i can see now why he feels the way he does. get that man on a cycle and we'll get him thinking straight real quick-like. being strong and large has everything to do with masculinity, to think otherwise is to be in denial. by skirting the issue, you've let me know that you don't think too highly of his physical characteristics. but then again, type-A women usually like to have men that are easily manipulated.

Childish. The only thing I've told you is that your attempts to get me to exploit my boyfriend's physique and interests to "prove" he's manly are not going to succeed. That is all irrelevant to this discussion. To insinuate that I am not proud of who he is or what he looks like because I won't betray his privacy and talk about his body on an internet forum is a middle-school tactic.

Quote:
Why don't you devote your life to the study of these things, as opposed to insulting women who would rather work in medicine than take classes in ancient civ? I went to college to explore my interests and developed an interest in medicine, and now choose to pursue it. There is no more or less value in a woman who does that than in a woman who takes continuing ed for the rest of her life.

i think we have a misunderstanding. i am FOR women working. i was just giving my argument for staying at home. again, my primary concern in life is providing for my family... however you do that is fine. i was just saying that "if you stay at home (fill in the blank)." Women are equally as capable as men, not even a question in my book.

A woman who wants to provide for her family as well is no less deserving of the chance to do so than a man.

Quote:
Your immaturity is astounding. I never said he didn't want a woman who enjoys working out, but he also wouldn't want a gym bunny who only goes to the gym and lunches with the girls. He wants a woman who leads an interesting life, not a trophy wife who will take care of his house and kids and look perfect all the time. You know, a real woman instead of a Stepford wife.


who's to define interesting. i think a fit woman who can tell me about world politics and ancient civilizations is just as exciting as a woman who is a full/part-time doctor. just because you stay at home, that does not make you subordinate. i have known many women that have blown me away in science and english, many went on to become teachers. are they "less interesting" because they get summers off and only work 40 hours a week?

I am not defining what is interesting to an entire population .I am defining what is interesting to MY partner: a woman who is into science, who wants to work outside of the home, and who doesn't need to stay home with the kids all the time to be a good mother.

And stop editing my comments to make it look like I'm complimenting you, because that just proves my point again that you are 12 years old.

 

[typeB-md]

Okay, I can't resist. Why are you becoming a doctor, B? Why not be a stay at home Dad and take classes at the local comm college? After all, "saving a few lives," doesn't mean anything right?

so my children will be very well off. i don't want my children to worry about anything and i want them to have the newest/best/most expensive toys that are out on the market. I want a job that pays well and allows me to have time with my children.

Childish. The only thing I've told you is that your attempts to get me to exploit my boyfriend's physique and interests to "prove" he's manly are not going to succeed. That is all irrelevant to this discussion. To insinuate that I am not proud of who he is or what he looks like because I won't betray his privacy and talk about his body on an internet forum is a middle-school tactic.

your b/f isn't a patient... no HIPAA to worry about. and even if he was HIPAA, you could still give me his height and weight as most of the nation is unathletic and he probably wouldn't be an outlier. And it's not a matter of privacy, i was simply asking to prove a point. most men who are not very "physically masculine" are likely to be drawn toward a domineering woman. but you're right, this is irrelevant to our discussion, so i will not belabor this anymore.

A woman who wants to provide for her family as well is no less deserving of the chance to do so than a man.

i don't believe i said anything to the contrary of this.

I am not defining what is interesting to an entire population .I am defining what is interesting to MY partner: a woman who is into science, who wants to work outside of the home, and who doesn't need to stay home with the kids all the time to be a good mother.

And stop editing my comments to make it look like I'm complimenting you, because that just proves my point again that you are 12 years old.

you said your boyfriend wants an interesting life, implying that anything short of a career-woman is not a "real woman" but more fittingly, a "stepford" mother.

my sleight regarding your words was done as banter. you need to turn off the type-A-o-meter to get the full effect on that one.

 

[criminallyinane]

so my children will be very well off. i don't want my children to worry about anything and i want them to have the newest/best/most expensive toys that are out on the market. I want a job that pays well and allows me to have time with my children.

Why not let your wife work then and you can stay home and take those community college classes you so love

your b/f isn't a patient... no HIPAA to worry about. and even if he was HIPAA, you could still give me his height and weight as most of the nation is unathletic and he probably wouldn't be an outlier. And it's not a matter of privacy, i was simply asking to prove a point. most men who are not very "physically masculine" are likely to be drawn toward a domineering woman. but you're right, this is irrelevant to our discussion, so i will not belabor this anymore.

The point is not related to HIPAA It is that I am not going to play into your hands by giving you information about my boyfriend's physique in some attempt to prove he is a "man." To do so would be to imply that I agree that physique makes the man and that "bigger = better," when in fact, that is very far from the truth. He is masculine (as he is a MAN, duh) and I am not a domineering girlfriend because - get this - our ideals are similar. That's why our relationship works. I don't have to MAKE him "let" me work or want me to have a job or want to split the housework, that's just how he believes it should be. Because he's a liberal, see? One of the good guys.

you said your boyfriend wants an interesting life, implying that anything short of a career-woman is not a "real woman" but more fittingly, a "stepford" mother.

my sleight regarding your words was done as banter. you need to turn off the type-A-o-meter to get the full effect on that one.

No, you wanted to know why he didn't want a gym bunny, and I told you. I am about as far from type A as one can be (I live in a pigsty... how type A is that? ) but these issues are important, and I will discuss them accordingly.

 

[pillowhead]

in other words, he's not athletic. i can see now why he feels the way he does. get that man on a cycle and we'll get him thinking straight real quick-like. being strong and large has everything to do with masculinity, to think otherwise is to be in denial. by skirting the issue, you've let me know that you don't think too highly of his physical characteristics. but then again, type-A women usually like to have men that are easily manipulated.

You really sound like you have a Napoleonic/Short Man complex. I don't know how tall you are (nor do I care), but you sound like you're about 5'2". That whole paragraph is just so laughable!