Wondering If DO Specialist and Surgical Specialist face Employment discrimination???

EMDO2018

Membership Revoked
Removed
Oct 8, 2013
1,913
1,232
I don't know
Status
Medical Student
I was just wondering if employers prefer one type of residency and licensing over the other? There are hospitals in my area asking for surgeons and hospitalist, some have either MD or DO can apply, But some have only MD can apply. Would it be more difficult to find a job as a DO specialist/surgical specialist?
 

Winged Scapula

Cougariffic!
Staff member
Administrator
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Apr 9, 2000
39,524
28,051
forums.studentdoctor.net
Status
Attending Physician
I believe you've answered your own question, haven't you?

While it is the case that most of the time, especially in a community practice, your degree is of no importance, there are still bastions of bias against osteopaths. In some cases there is a clear preference for allopathic grads, others in which an osteopath will be acceptable if they did an allopathic residency and finally still others in which no osteopaths can be found.

One of my partners is an osteopath who completed an allopathic residency and was advised upon graduation that she would find bias and difficulty in employment. I don't know whether that has been significant for her but I can tell you that she goes to some effort to hide her degree (ie:, her business cards and the sign on our doors all say Dr. instead of the degree). So yes, the bias is real and can impact employment however in my opinion, it mostly exists in the minds of patients, premeds, and certain, mostly academic institutions, and shouldn't be a significant barrier.

And with that, moving this back to the premed forums where this belongs. Others can chime in if they wish there.
 

cliquesh

10+ Year Member
Nov 2, 2007
3,090
1,089
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I was just wondering if employers prefer one type of residency and licensing over the other? There are hospitals in my area asking for surgeons and hospitalist, some have either MD or DO can apply, But some have only MD can apply. Would it be more difficult to find a job as a DO specialist/surgical specialist?
There is discrimination. Its less than what exists for residency/fellowship, though. The limiting factor for a successful career will be matching into speciality X as a DO; not the post graduate employment opportunities.

The Acgme is the gold standard. Many people are unaware that AOA residencies even exist.

The pay is the same regardless if youre a DO or MD or Acgme trained versuses AOA trained.

I would be surprised if those "MD only" postings you read actually do not want DOs to apply. I'd imagine they are using MD as a general term for physician, which would include both DOs and MDs.
 

Mehd School

5+ Year Member
May 2, 2012
2,287
672
West Coast
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I've been working in a hospital setting for 3 years and next to nobody knows what a DO is. The few DO's that do come here don't face any discrimination as far as getting a job goes. I think the only time you may face some is if you are trying to become a partner in a private group of MD's. Even then, you may face some discrimination if you're a female, have different skin color, weird accent, etc.
 

MDforMee

Sweet Cheeks
Aug 29, 2012
791
150
Status
Pre-Medical
I think the only time you may face some is if you are trying to become a partner in a private group of MD's. Even then, you may face some discrimination if you're a female, have different skin color, weird accent, etc.
It shouldn't be okay to throw this type of accusation around.
 
Last edited:
Jun 8, 2013
498
155
Status
It shouldn't be okay to throw this type of accusation around.
I don't see what is wrong with his post. He posted different types of discrimination that, although illegal, are unfortunately real and exist in our society.

Every DO attending (I guess n=8) that I have shadowed told me that 99.9% of the time, your hard work and dedication will be what decides your future, not the degree. I just shadowed a DO attending today who went to UNE for med school, did an ACGME residency in EM, and then did an anesthesiology fellowship at Harvard.
 
Last edited:
Jun 21, 2012
470
346
Status
Resident [Any Field]
The few DO's that do come here don't face any discrimination as far as getting a job goes. I think the only time you may face some is if you are trying to become a partner in a private group of MD's.
Please do share your privileged role in the hiring process as a pre-med. Since you've never been a DO applying for positions, I presume you've been on the decision making side of this. Managing a group practice is a pretty impressive EC.
 
Apr 3, 2013
104
5
Status
Pre-Medical
My area has D.O.'s all over the place..no discrimination as far as I can tell.

On a side note: my FP is an Osteopathic Physician and he hasn't once use the OMM or OMT on me. He just prescribes medicine just like an M.D. normal does, so I don't see the big difference between the two to have enough discrimination. My mother's Ortho doctor is a D.O. and he's great.
 

Mehd School

5+ Year Member
May 2, 2012
2,287
672
West Coast
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Please do share your privileged role in the hiring process as a pre-med. Since you've never been a DO applying for positions, I presume you've been on the decision making side of this. Managing a group practice is a pretty impressive EC.
I guess you read over the part of my post where I said "I think". Since you didn't get it the first time, that means I don't know. It is what I have heard; it is what I think to be true. I have no factual evidence to support it.

Please let me know if you need further explanation.
 

MDforMee

Sweet Cheeks
Aug 29, 2012
791
150
Status
Pre-Medical
I don't see what is wrong with his post. He posted different types of discrimination that, although illegal, are unfortunately real and exist in our society.
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkMatter0

Elevencents

5+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 3, 2011
1,460
617
Status
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
Wtf, lol. Talk about extrapolation. Yeah I'm sure he was trying to secretly make that connection :boggle:
 

MDforMee

Sweet Cheeks
Aug 29, 2012
791
150
Status
Pre-Medical
Wtf, lol. Talk about extrapolation. Yeah I'm sure he was trying to secretly make that connection :boggle:
Do you think that the way to fight racism and sexism is to call others racist and sexist?
 
Last edited:
Jun 21, 2012
470
346
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I guess you read over the part of my post where I said "I think". Since you didn't get it the first time, that means I don't know. It is what I have heard; it is what I think to be true. I have no factual evidence to support it.
Your lack of insight into the fact that you have no insight into the issue in question is impressive. Read the sentence before "I think"...you made a statement based on zero qualifying experience:
The few DO's that do come here don't face any discrimination as far as getting a job goes.
And this isn't exactly an issue where what you think is helpful to anybody. Sometimes it makes sense to not just blurt out what you think if you know it has no basis. And did you stop to consider the selection bias as ones who felt discrimination (which could vary by department or person to person at an interview) would less likely be working there?

...excuse me now, I'm going to go find someone in the high school forum to assess my residency opportunities.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MDforMee

Elevencents

5+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 3, 2011
1,460
617
Status
Apparently I'm missing something. But since this is way off topic I'm gonna bow out since I sense some hostility.
 

Elevencents

5+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 3, 2011
1,460
617
Status
Your lack of insight into the fact that you have no insight into the issue in question is impressive. Read the sentence before "I think"...you made a statement based on zero qualifying experience:



And this isn't exactly an issue where what you think is helpful to anybody. Sometimes it makes sense to not just blurt out what you think if you know it has no basis.

...excuse me now, I'm going to go find someone in the high school forum to assess my residency opportunities.
I was not the one to make the statement. You quoted two different people.
 
Last edited:
Nov 30, 2013
323
206
Status
Medical Student
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
He never mentioned "white" people, he just said "different skin color." You assumed white. He's saying that DOs don't overtly face discrimination in the same way that women and people from different cultures and races do. You can't post "no females/no Indians" in the job description, but in the end who knows what the hiring person's secret bias is... you really read into his original statement a bit too much, and overreacted.
 

MDforMee

Sweet Cheeks
Aug 29, 2012
791
150
Status
Pre-Medical
He never mentioned "white" people, he just said "different skin color." You assumed white. He's saying that DOs don't overtly face discrimination in the same way that women and people from different cultures and races do. You can't post "no females/no Indians" in the job description, but in the end who knows what the hiring person's secret bias is... you really read into his original statement a bit too much, and overreacted.
And I used the term "ostensibly" when referring to the generalization he made. Do you need a dictionary?

Your interpretation of his statement is also wrong. He said that "I think the only time you may face some is if you are trying to become a partner in a private group of MD's. Even then, you may face some discrimination if you're a female, have different skin color, weird accent, etc."

What that statement means is that DO's may be discriminated against when trying to enter an MD group; additionally, people trying to enter an MD group may be discriminated against if they are females or non-whites whether they're MDs or DOs (his writing is muddled and not specific). In this way, DOs are facing discrimination similarly to females and non-whites.
 
Last edited:

BestDoctorEver

Membership Revoked
Removed
Account on Hold
5+ Year Member
Sep 26, 2009
2,883
810
Status
Medical Student
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
Wow... I did not pick that up from his/her statement.
 
Last edited:

Bacchus

Staff member
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Apr 28, 2007
20,988
2,289
Status
Attending Physician
Back on topic everyone. Better yet, go be with friends and family this holiday evening.
 
Nov 30, 2013
323
206
Status
Medical Student
And I used the term "ostensibly" when referring to the generalization he made. Do you need a dictionary?

Your interpretation of his statement is also wrong. He said that "I think the only time you may face some is if you are trying to become a partner in a private group of MD's. Even then, you may face some discrimination if you're a female, have different skin color, weird accent, etc."

What that statement means is that DO's may be discriminated against when trying to enter an MD group; additionally, people trying to enter an MD group may be discriminated against if they are females or non-whites whether they're MDs or DOs (his writing is muddled and not specific). In this way, DOs are facing discrimination similarly to females and non-whites.
You are very hostile...
And you and I both interpreted what he said the same way, we just worded it differently.

Have a good holiday. I've checked out from this argument.
 

mcloaf

7+ Year Member
Jan 21, 2012
5,176
4,648
Status
Resident [Any Field]
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
I wish this post weren't serious.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mehd School

Pacna

Dyslexics, untie!
Jun 2, 2013
2,017
2,251
MN
Status
Medical Student
I asked a doc about this the other day, and he replied "But did you get into MD?" I nodded. "Then go MD. Don't be a Dodo."

I think it's a shame what some docs think of DOs, but some definitely do harbor a bias.
 

SurgeDO

5+ Year Member
Apr 6, 2013
782
1,244
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I asked a doc about this the other day, and he replied "But did you get into MD?" I nodded. "Then go MD. Don't be a Dodo."

I think it's a shame what some docs think of DOs, but some definitely do harbor a bias.
I asked my grandma about this the other day as well. she said MD docs smell bad and go to DO school.

I, too, think it is a shame about what some grandmas think about MDs, but some definitely do harbor a bias.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mehd School

Pacna

Dyslexics, untie!
Jun 2, 2013
2,017
2,251
MN
Status
Medical Student
I asked my grandma about this the other day as well. she said MD docs smell bad and go to DO school.

I, too, think it is a shame about what some grandmas think about MDs, but some definitely do harbor a bias.
So defensive that you missed the fact that I disagree with the MD.
 

Buckeye(OH)

5K+ Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 28, 2004
6,168
174
Toledo, Ohio
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
I think there is definitely discrimination but it is both geographically and specialty dependent. My field is fairly saturated and Im, I think, the first DO that the institution that I will be doing fellowship has taken.

With that said, I informed them, because they asked what my plans were, that I would likely be signing a contract at one of the hospitals where I did my AOA residency at. A few weeks later, I got an email urging me to reconsider doing so. I later find out that the place I am doing fellowship is looking for attendings.

Again, this is an ACGME institution that most would consider elitest.

In other words, the old guard is dying out
 

Mehd School

5+ Year Member
May 2, 2012
2,287
672
West Coast
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Your lack of insight into the fact that you have no insight into the issue in question is impressive. Read the sentence before "I think"...you made a statement based on zero qualifying experience:.
You should say insight a few more times. Anyway, I've worked in a private specialty group for 3 years. That's neither here nor there. I very plainly gave my opinion and you have (weirdly) committed to making it appear as if I am pushing it off as fact.

I think some people have had too much time on their hands this Holiday season. Back to reddit I go.
 
Jun 21, 2012
470
346
Status
Resident [Any Field]
You should say insight a few more times. Anyway, I've worked in a private specialty group for 3 years. That's neither here nor there. I very plainly gave my opinion and you have (weirdly) committed to making it appear as if I am pushing it off as fact.

I think some people have had too much time on their hands this Holiday season. Back to reddit I go.
You can mock my writing. I wrote what I meant. Perhaps you prefer: You don't know what you don't know. You are unaware that you lack insight. Your naivete is showing.
A pre-med making generalizations about issues faced by attending level physicians behind closed doors in the process of hiring is absurd. Making any generalization about the medical field as a whole based on what you experience in a specialty private practice is likewise ridiculous. Responding by picking on my choice of words rather than its substance is immature.
 
Last edited:
OP
EMDO2018

EMDO2018

Membership Revoked
Removed
Oct 8, 2013
1,913
1,232
I don't know
Status
Medical Student
Your lack of insight into the fact that you have no insight into the issue in question is impressive. Read the sentence before "I think"...you made a statement based on zero qualifying experience:

And this isn't exactly an issue where what you think is helpful to anybody. Sometimes it makes sense to not just blurt out what you think if you know it has no basis. And did you stop to consider the selection bias as ones who felt discrimination (which could vary by department or person to person at an interview) would less likely be working there?

...excuse me now, I'm going to go find someone in the high school forum to assess my residency opportunities.

This dude is such a prick.
 

ChineseKid

learning
7+ Year Member
Dec 31, 2009
710
69
BC
Status
Medical Student
It's always in the pre-medical forums..
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
35,442
64,842
4th Dimension
It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
 

NontradCA

American Hero
5+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2012
4,992
4,143
Trump Tower
Status
Medical Student
Get your ethnic hands off my job DOs!
 
OP
EMDO2018

EMDO2018

Membership Revoked
Removed
Oct 8, 2013
1,913
1,232
I don't know
Status
Medical Student
How do dual accredited programs work? If you enter an dual accredited program in the AOA match, does that mean you can do ACGME fellowship afterwards?
 

cliquesh

10+ Year Member
Nov 2, 2007
3,090
1,089
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Yea, you can do either an acgme or aoa fellowship. Keep in mind where you do your residency will dramatically influence your fellowship options. Most dual accredited programs are at small community hospitals which will not impress many acgme fellowship program directors.
 
Last edited:

happypremed1

5+ Year Member
Nov 8, 2013
254
68
Yea, you can do either an acgme or aoa fellowship. Keep in mind where you do your residency will dramatically influence your fellowship options. Most dual accredited programs are at small community hospitals which will not impress many acgme fellowship program directors.
As a DO, do you have to pay a membership due to the AOA?
 

cliquesh

10+ Year Member
Nov 2, 2007
3,090
1,089
Status
Resident [Any Field]
As a DO, do you have to pay a membership due to the AOA?
I think you have to if you are in an AOA program or hope to get resolution 42 approval. You also have to pay if you are AOA board certified. Otherwise, no, you don't have to be a member. I think it's around $69 to be a member as a resident. I'd imagine many AOA residencies pay the fee for its residents. It's $683/yr as an attending practicing 3 or more years.
 
Last edited:

hallowmann

Lifetime Donor
7+ Year Member
Mar 13, 2012
5,459
4,992
Status
Resident [Any Field]
The problem with this question is that it varies wildly by both region and specialty. I know MDs in PM&R that love DOs, are outnumbered by them, and wish they could use OMM. In states with huge DO populations, you usually don't see much bias. Go out to states with a really low DO to MD ratios and that could change, like having places explicitly say that they won't take DOs.

Wherever you are, I doubt you'd have an issue finding a job. Also, as cliquesh mentioned, don't go just by the ad. You won't know for sure whether they really mean "no DOs" or whether they mean "physicians only". Some job descriptions do explicitly say things like such and such board certification required, where its only the allo board, but again it could just be an issue of them not expecting to get apps from DOs, not of them not wanting apps from DOs.

It was a blanket statement that ostensibly called white male MD's racist AND sexist at the same time. You know it, I know it.

Besides that, his statement isn't based on his real life experience, unless he's served on a hiring committee in his illustrious pre-medical career; we know that he isn't a physician that's applied for jobs. Case in point, what statements like that do is contribute to a tolerance of labeling professionally successful white males (as racist and sexist) socially acceptable, and that's not okay.
Wow did you jump to conclusions quickly.

He never said white. Granted he said male, and granted he said MD, but he never said white. Heck he didn't even say non-white, tan, brown, black, yellow, orange, green or any color, he said "different skin color." Read it again. You could very well assume he was referring to any group of male doctors of one race/skin color (black, white, brown, etc.).

Also, last I checked, MDs didn't encompass all professionally successful individuals.

Discrimination exists. His statement pretty clearly implied that discrimination exists, so DOs may experience bias, but its probably the same level of bias that anyone would experience when approaching a job in a small practice with a predominant race, gender, degree, and to add to it, age, city of origin, sexual orientation, hair style, football team, fashion sense, and any other random thing that people can discriminate based on.
 
OP
EMDO2018

EMDO2018

Membership Revoked
Removed
Oct 8, 2013
1,913
1,232
I don't know
Status
Medical Student
glad this thread got bumped. I've been browsing internal medicine residency programs, and as competition gets tighter for spots people always say "IMGs will be pushed out of the match instead of DOs" but in acgme programs I see a lot more IMGs that DOs. I hope that not a bad sign. Most of the programs I looked at were in the southeast. Are there just more IMGs than DOs or something?
 

cliquesh

10+ Year Member
Nov 2, 2007
3,090
1,089
Status
Resident [Any Field]
glad this thread got bumped. I've been browsing internal medicine residency programs, and as competition gets tighter for spots people always say "IMGs will be pushed out of the match instead of DOs" but in acgme programs I see a lot more IMGs that DOs. I hope that not a bad sign. Most of the programs I looked at were in the southeast. Are there just more IMGs than DOs or something?
Internal medicine is not very DO friendly. Acgme IM PDs have always favored IMGs over DOs. Its not hard to match internal medicine somewhere as a DO, but matching somewhere good, like a mid-tier university program, can be difficult as a DO.

Moreover, the southeast is not DO friendly. Some places in the southeast, like VCU, west virgina U, Georgia university, university of south Carolina, wake forest and muiltiple places in florida, do take DOs. It's uncommon for UNC, duke, Virginia univ, or Emory to take DOs.

Also, I'm not sure what programs you looked at, but if they are only filled with IMGs, you wouldn't want to go there anyway.

Keep in mind you can always move back to the southeast after completing your residency elsewhere.

Finally, I think the whole "IMGs being pushed out" is wishful thinking. Many IMGs are better residents/applicants than US grads. It is, however, too early to see any new trends. It's going to a few more years before the residency crunch happens...if it even happens.
 
Last edited: