Working conditions for doctors in germany

[imgyg]

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Hi all,

Anybody know what working conditions are like for doctors in Germany and how difficult it is to get a job there?

 

[MD950717]

Well, they are much better than those in the US. How difficult - it depends on your specialty, location, profile, work permit status and many other factors.
Vielleicht wenn du deine Frage etwas genauer formulierst, wäre diese einfacher zu beantworten?

 

[imgyg]

Well, they are much better than those in the US. How difficult - it depends on your specialty, location, profile, work permit status and many other factors.
Vielleicht wenn du deine Frage etwas genauer formulierst, wäre diese einfacher zu beantworten?

Danke fuer die Antwort. Kennst du ob es schwierig ist fuer fremde Arzte Poste zu bekommen in Medizin? Zum Beispiel kardiologisch, Rheumatologie? Ich nehme an es ist schwieriger Posts zu bekommen in grosse Staedte wie Berlin und Munich im Gegensatz zu kleine Staedte und auf dem Land?

 

[MD950717]

Again, it depends on your work permit, approbation status, flexibility and many other factors. Of course, it is more difficult in the big agglos than in the countryside.

 

[Xenops]

Well, they are much better than those in the US. How difficult - it depends on your specialty, location, profile, work permit status and many other factors.
Vielleicht wenn du deine Frage etwas genauer formulierst, wäre diese einfacher zu beantworten?

That's an interesting comment--could you elaborate on how Germany treats its doctors better than the U.S. does?

 

[MD950717]

- liability is limited, resulting in better training for surgical specialties
- any reimbursement issues are not doctors headache at all, even in a private practice.
- the EHRs are less cumbersome
- hospital administration has less to say
- yearly vacation time is longer (it varies, but normally not under 4 wks)
- free medschool, no premed, 6 years in total
- no matching, but individual work/training contracts instead, allowing a great degree of flexibility.

 

[Xenops]

- liability is limited, resulting in better training for surgical specialties
- any reimbursement issues are not doctors headache at all, even in a private practice.
- the EHRs are less cumbersome
- hospital administration has less to say
- yearly vacation time is longer (it varies, but normally not under 4 wks)
- free medschool, no premed, 6 years in total
- no matching, but individual work/training contracts instead, allowing a great degree of flexibility.

Thank you very much for the reply and information. 🙂 What are the working hours are like?

 

[MD950717]

May vary by clinic and specialty, but roughly the same as in the States. However they start not at 4-5 am, but at 6-7.30 am

 

[Xenops]

May vary by clinic and specialty, but roughly the same as in the States. However they start not at 4-5 am, but at 6-7.30 am

Thank you for the reply: I confess that I see articles like this one (http://www.spiegel.de/international...of-bad-pay-doctors-flee-germany-a-399537.html ) and it makes me worried. Would you disagree with the article?

 

[MD950717]

You are absolutely right and please note, I never mentioned good remuneration among the good things! The pay used to be real craps, but now things are getting better.

 

[Xenops]

You are absolutely right and please note, I never mentioned good remuneration among the good things! The pay used to be real craps, but now things are getting better.

Thank you for your honesty. 🙂 So the hospitals or the government is trying to improve things? Would working conditions be better in rural locations?

I want to give my condolences for the Berlin attack yesterday.😢

 

[MD950717]

I am Switzerland-based, but some 15 miles from the German border, so I have some idea what's going on, but only to a certain extent. The article you quoted is ten years old, back then the Swiss hospitals were flooded with German doctors seeking better pay. Today it is much harder to recruit Germans and many of whom I know are now back in Germany, saying that the payment is better indeed. The job market situation is never set in stone, so things may improve or otherwise. At the moment they are better in Germany, then in the US, but that's my humble opinion only. After all, the US have an access to an unlimited pool of doctors from all over the world, but Germany can't (the language!), so they have to take care of their doctors this way or another.

 

[Xenops]

I am Switzerland-based, but some 15 miles from the German border, so I have some idea what's going on, but only to a certain extent. The article you quoted is ten years old, back then the Swiss hospitals were flooded with German doctors seeking better pay. Today it is much harder to recruit Germans and many of whom I know are now back in Germany, saying that the payment is better indeed. The job market situation is never set in stone, so things may improve or otherwise. At the moment they are better in Germany, then in the US, but that's my humble opinion only. After all, the US have an access to an unlimited pool of doctors from all over the world, but Germany can't (the language!), so they have to take care of their doctors this way or another.

Thank you for your thoughts. 🙂 How have you liked Switzerland? I've heard it's more difficult for non-EU people to go to med school there. It sounds like all the med schools are taught in German or Italian?

 

[MD950717]

May I ask, why are you interested on these subjects? In theory only, just to compare different countries or contemplating different career paths to pursue?

As for your question, only Swiss nationals or offspring of Swiss residents can apply to a medschool there. That means, as a non EU you are eligible only if your parents have lived and worked more than five years in this country AND they obtained a work/residence permit, too.

 

[Xenops]

May I ask, why are you interested on these subjects? In theory only, just to compare different countries or contemplating different career paths to pursue?

As for your question, only Swiss nationals or offspring of Swiss residents can apply to a medschool there. That means, as a non EU you are eligible only if your parents have lived and worked more than five years in this country AND they obtained a work/residence permit, too.

Thank you for your time in answering my questions, and your question is a reasonable one. I've been interested in medical school for a while, but I don't think the medical system here (the U.S.) is a substantial one, plus medical school here is ridiculously expensive (it's the norm to have a quarter of a million dollars in debt). So I am researching other countries. Upon advice from another forum (http://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4842 ), they recommended attending school in the target country for better job opportunities. So I am researching medical school systems in Europe. Med schools in other English-speaking countries are also expensive for non-EU students. I'm currently learning French, and German will be my next goal. I'm going to try to reach B1 or B2 in French this year.

 

[MD950717]

Très bien! Je te souhaite beaucoup de succès. Mois, je suis dans le B1 maintenant, mais pour notre metier, on dois avoir le C1 ou C2...

I don't know you, of course, there are many things to factor in, but if I were a non-EU national willing to become a doctor in a developed country, I would consider a medical school in Poland, Lithuania or Latvia. Most of them do accept non-EU students and provide very decent teaching so it is possible to achieve a high Steps score. The tuition down there is moderate so are the living expenses.
BTW I have done my rotations side-to-side to the graduates from those countries and almost all of them were very skillfull and knowledgeable. They are definitely not like those ones from Caribbean diploma mills.

In particular, I have heard many good things about Jagellonian University in Poland, Karlov University in Prague and University of Vilnijus and Riga University. Some of them even teach pre-med (first and second year) in English, so you can study and develop your language skills at the same time. In the 3rd year and after you must speak local language in order to communicate with your patients.

 

[Xenops]

Très bien! Je te souhaite beaucoup de succès. Mois, je suis dans le B1 maintenant, mais pour notre metier, on dois avoir le C1 ou C2...

I don't know you, of course, there are many things to factor in, but if I were a non-EU national willing to become a doctor in a developed country, I would consider a medical school in Poland, Lithuania or Latvia. Most of them do accept non-EU students and provide very decent teaching so it is possible to achieve a high Steps score. The tuition down there is moderate so are the living expenses.
BTW I have done my rotations side-to-side to the graduates from those countries and almost all of them were very skillfull and knowledgeable. They are definitely not like those ones from Caribbean diploma mills.

In particular, I have heard many good things about Jagellonian University in Poland, Karlov University in Prague and University of Vilnijus and Riga University. Some of them even teach pre-med (first and second year) in English, so you can study and develop your language skills at the same time. In the 3rd year and after you must speak local language in order to communicate with your patients.

Merci! Tu es gentil. J'espère avoir le B1 en le décembre porchain, pas ce décembre. 😉

Thank you for your information! I appreciate it. I hadn't considered Latvia or Lithuania. Is it difficult to go to school in one EU country, and move to another? My concern would be that I could not get a job in a country of interest, but it sounds like you work with graduates of said countries, and they managed to find a job in Switzerland?

 

[MD950717]

Sorry, but I can't quite follow what your long term goals are. From what I understood, you are a US citizen, no? Then you could go to medschool, say in Poland, pass your steps and match in the States. That's it.

If you have some other agenda, you may want to start another thread, clearly listing your objectives, conditions and your paricular question. We are now in a thread about working conditions in Germany, but this discussion goes in a completely different direction.

 

[Xenops]

Sorry, but I can't quite follow what your long term goals are. From what I understood, you are a US citizen, no? Then you could go to medschool, say in Poland, pass your steps and match in the States. That's it.

If you have some other agenda, you may want to start another thread, clearly listing your objectives, conditions and your paricular question. We are now in a thread about working conditions in Germany, but this discussion goes in a completely different direction.

Thank you for your time. Yes, I am an American, but I want to immigrate (I'm not happy with the U.S.) So I am investigating medical schools in Europe, and the working conditions in each country. I will post a thread with my goals, thank you for the suggestion.