Working with rats/mice (looking for advice on how to talk with PIs)

[BrightandClear]

Having decided where I will be matriculating, I'm now starting to work on setting up my summer lab rotation. I've identified two PIs I'm interested in working with, however both of their labs use rats and/or mice.

I occasionally worked with rats, and even less frequently mice, in my undergraduate lab. While I have no problem working with live animals or dead specimens, I hate the part that comes in between. To solve this problem, I worked out a deal with the senior graduate student in my lab. On sacrifice days I came in an hour late, he took care of what needed doing, and I took him out for coffee/lunch/drinks. My PI either never knew about our arrangement or didn't care (I suspect the latter), so everyone was happy. For the last two years I've been working on an MPH, so rodents haven't exactly been an issue...

Any suggestions on approaching this topic with prospective PIs? I don't exactly want to blurt it out first thing ("Hi I'm BrightandClear, I'd like to rotate in your lab, and oh BTW I don't kill small furry things"), and at the same time I don't want to find myself on guillotine duty all summer...

I apologize if this sounds silly or trivial, but I would really appreciate some advice. 😳

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[delirium81]

I don't think it's silly or trivial to feel uncomfortable killing cute furry things. I feel the same way. I'm not against the use of animals in research at all, I just feel uncomfortable doing it myself, and I avoided animal work in my PhD for that reason at least in part. The other part of the reason is that typically animal work takes longer. Mice take a longer time to grow up and deal with experimentally than cells do. So, when you're on a time crunch for an MD/PhD program I think it can be a wise decision to try to avoid animal work. This isn't universal and maybe some others on here who made it work can comment on it, but my sense is that you need to be careful about what type of animal project you take on. If there's a good system already in place in your lab of interest (someone already made the knock out mouse, for example) then I think it can be feasible to finish in a timely manner. Anyway, I'd just find out what kind of systems your labs of interest have in place. Do they have a good infrastructure to deal with animals? Do they have a tech that can help you out with animal care? Do they have other projects that deal less with animals? I think you can approach it by just asking questions about how things work in their lab and finding out what projects are available. Definitely make sure that there are options you could deal with before you commit to any rotations.

 

[threecoins]

I am a hem onc fellow in a program with a basic research requirement , I would also prefer not to work with animals ...if I bring that up with my lab mentor would that reflect negatively on me?

 

[miz]

I'd mention it at the end so that it doesn't become prejudicial and I'd also say how you worked it out in your previous lab. I'd also be careful to not over-emphasize it. If you treat it like it shouldn't affect your lab work (which it hasn't), hopefully potential PIs will feel the same way.

 

[K31]

I'd be upfront about it, or at least prepared to explain your situation--I've had several meetings with potential PIs start off by them asking me about whether I was OK with animal work. My impression is that most are willing to work with you if you can't do it, but it may affect the type of projects you are given. We had students in my undergrad lab who wouldn't do mouse work, and they did cell culture projects while I was put on the mouse projects.

You may not have the opportunity for a similar arrangement as far as someone doing the dirty work for you--we had a clinical fellow in our lab who didn't want to kill her own mice, and it did lead to a certain amount of resentment from those of us who had to do it for her. As a grad student you really shouldn't be depending on someone else to do critical portions of your experiments, and for you that may mean choosing projects or labs that don't involve higher animals.

 

[justgo]

Also, I'd check out the protocols for sacrifice filed for the lab beforehand or talk to graduate students about how they do their sacrifice. There are some methods that are less offensive than others.

If you are ok working with the carcasses you might be able to ask about using CO2 or anesthesia to "kill" before you start cutting (where the death would actually occur unless you overdosed the above). You might find it become more palatable depending on the way that you do it (though you sometimes can't use the above due to cellular affect). This might also be something you can ease yourself into by using the less violent methods which I think anyone with half a heart would prefer.

 

[K31]

Also, I'd check out the protocols for sacrifice filed for the lab beforehand or talk to graduate students about how they do their sacrifice. There are some methods that are less offensive than others.

This is going to be the case in virtually all labs. OLAW requires a very compelling reason to do euthanasia without anesthesia. I never did cervical dislocation without anesthesia in grad school, and most of the time we used CO2 euthanasia instead. Done properly (and my institution has very strict protocols about this) it is very humane.

 

[LMac]

This is an incredibly relevant discussion for me at the moment. I just accepted an internship in a neuroscience lab and am have spent the last two hours completing my animal protocol certifications and IACUC testing. I am completely inexperienced in this, but am going into it with the attitude that I'd rather find out sooner rather than later if I can handle it. Even learning about the definitions of distress levels has been...well...distressing.

I'll be curious to see what advice you continue to receive on this topic. If I can't handle it, I'm concerned about having yet another challenge as a non-trad.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

This is an incredibly relevant discussion for me at the moment. I just accepted an internship in a neuroscience lab and am have spent the last two hours completing my animal protocol certifications and IACUC testing. I am completely inexperienced in this, but am going into it with the attitude that I'd rather find out sooner rather than later if I can handle it. Even learning about the definitions of distress levels has been...well...distressing.

I'll be curious to see what advice you continue to receive on this topic. If I can't handle it, I'm concerned about having yet another challenge as a non-trad.

Don't worry. If you can't handle it you have to move down to more basic biology (yeast, drosophila, C. elegans), chemistry, in vitro cell lines, or something closer to human samples (e.g. blood, serum, tumor, etc.). This is definitely not something that should prevent you from having good and productive research experiences.

 

[Ombret]

I went through all of grad school (Ph.D. in cell biology) without working directly with animals or coming anywhere close to having to sacrifice any. I always worked in cell culture or with yeast. On the few occasions where we did something involving whole animals, it always happened to be in a collaborator's lab and we would just get back slides or tissue. I was not actively avoiding the dead furry guys but it was certainly a relief to not have to go there. On the other hand, in retrospect I do feel this has left me in the dark about animal-related methods. It seems reasonable to try to minimize your exposure to animal sacrifice, but consider exposing yourself to it at least a little so that you will better understand this aspect of your experiments. And by all means be open about it with your PI. In all likelihood, as long as your hangup will not seriously hinder the project's ability to get done, the PI will not have a problem with it.

 

[justgo]

This is going to be the case in virtually all labs. OLAW requires a very compelling reason to do euthanasia without anesthesia. I never did cervical dislocation without anesthesia in grad school, and most of the time we used CO2 euthanasia instead. Done properly (and my institution has very strict protocols about this) it is very humane.

Yes, but there really is a difference between anesthesia protocols. I technically do sacs with anesthesia, but it is a very low dosage for cardiac puncture and you still have a semi-motile animal (and I work with several different animal types). Other protocols where you are anesthetizing to kill or anesthetizing for cervical dislocation and the like use higher dosage and it is much less personal in my experience. But I've also worked in other countries without similar regulations and as a consequence followed protocols for sacs without any anesthesia and become good at doing this very humanely as well.

I've never personally had problems with this emotionally, but I do recognize that there is a big difference between the feel of different protocols and I think it would be a good idea to experience the protocols in various labs before one decided that they unilaterally did not want to be involved in animal sacrifice.....if they felt it was necessary to advance their work. Personally, I think cells are a lot more fun. I've never been bitten by a cell.

I would just advise to talk and observe before something is made an issue. It likely won't end up being as big an issue as it may seem at the outset.....and I don't think this is any particular hurdle for a non-trad, quite the opposite in that you (LMac) might be better equipped to discuss and be patient with respect to.

 

[BrightandClear]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! All of the thoughts and ideas were very helpful.