Worried About Residency?

[MedPR]

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I'm wondering if anyone on here is in the same boat and sharing the same concerns. I'm 23 years old (24 later this year) and have slim to no chance of getting into MD schools because of my GPA (<3.3). Just retook my MCAT and hopefully am in the 33+ range so that should place me in a pretty decent position to get into a DO school in 2013.

Obviously as a pre-med I have almost no idea what specialty I want to pursue, but I am worried that I'll end up wanting something like ortho or neurosurgery and from what I'm reading those programs are next to impossible to match into for DO students.

Anyone have the same concerns? Any input or corrections to what I think the reality is?

Edit: Also, I've heard that DO students have a much lower Step 1 pass rate. Does that have anything to do with the DO curriculum or is it more so that most students care more about COMLEX?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well there always is the AOA match. I actually think Hockydoc once showed that the chances of you matching Ortho is pretty much the same as a MD.

 

[MedPR]

Well there always is the AOA match. I actually think Hockydoc once showed that the chances of you matching Ortho is pretty much the same as a MD.

I hadn't thought about AOA. I don't really know the difference between the AOA match and the ACGME match. I know that AOA doesn't have some specialties, is there a list somewhere?

Also, why do people want to match into ACGME if AOA has an equivalent program?

 

[gators21]

You have 3000 posts and dont know this answer or how to search?
Troll harder

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I hadn't thought about AOA. I don't really know the difference between the AOA match and the ACGME match. I know that AOA doesn't have some specialties, is there a list somewhere?

Also, why do people want to match into ACGME if AOA has an equivalent program?

Difference is minimal, primarily that one is primarily situated in either Ohio or Michigan ( AOA) and that the other is in a lot of places (ACGME). And that doing a DO gas residency can be problematic ( Not a problem as ACGME Ane is DO friendly).

 

[cliquesh]

I'm wondering if anyone on here is in the same boat and sharing the same concerns. I'm 23 years old (24 later this year) and have slim to no chance of getting into MD schools because of my GPA (<3.3). Just retook my MCAT and hopefully am in the 33+ range so that should place me in a pretty decent position to get into a DO school in 2013.

Obviously as a pre-med I have almost no idea what specialty I want to pursue, but I am worried that I'll end up wanting something like ortho or neurosurgery and from what I'm reading those programs are next to impossible to match into for DO students.

Anyone have the same concerns? Any input or corrections to what I think the reality is?

Edit: Also, I've heard that DO students have a much lower Step 1 pass rate. Does that have anything to do with the DO curriculum or is it more so that most students care more about COMPLEX?

If you go to a DO school it is very unlikely that you will end up at an ACGME ortho or neurosurgery program. Its pretty much not going to happen.

AOA ortho, however, is a reasonable goal and if you do what you're suppose to do (research, good grades, good board scores) you should be able to become an orthopedic surgeon. The same can be said about AOA general surgery.

The same cannot be said about AOA neurosurgery, ent, optho, or urology because there are few spots. I think its more luck and who you know when applying to these residencies.

DOs do worse on the USMLE. I think the pass rate for DOs is around 80% for step 1. Why? I couldn't tell you. How well you do on boards is pretty much determined by your own work ethic, so it shouldn't matter where you go to school. I personally thought the USMLE was easier than the comlex.

 

[willen101383]

Ive always chalked the boards pass rate up to DO students winging it and taking the USMLE without full preparation for it. I cant see curriculum making a difference or enough of a difference. Its also not a secret that we as a group arent as good as MD students at taking standardized tests...ie the mcat difference.

Who knows the true reasons...but I dont buy the curriculum difference answer.

 

[willen101383]

I hadn't thought about AOA. I don't really know the difference between the AOA match and the ACGME match. I know that AOA doesn't have some specialties, is there a list somewhere?

Also, why do people want to match into ACGME if AOA has an equivalent program?

The programs (in general) are bigger and better. That being said there are plenty of AOA programs that are at huge centers as well.

I personally am not really considering AOA (unless i blow ass on my step 1 in a month) because I dont agree with the way the AOA represents DOs and dont really want anything to do with them after I graduate med school. There are a few good AOA programs in my city in various specialties tho.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The programs (in general) are bigger and better. That being said there are plenty of AOA programs that are at huge centers as well.

I personally am not really considering AOA (unless i blow ass on my step 1 in a month) because I dont agree with the way the AOA represents DOs and dont really want anything to do with them after I graduate med school. There are a few good AOA programs in my city in various specialties tho.

I thought you wanted to to do a really competitive specialty?

 

[MedPR]

You have 3000 posts and dont know this answer or how to search?
Troll harder

3000 posts in the MCAT forum. Your response leads me to believe you belong in the pre-allo forums.

Difference is minimal, primarily that one is primarily situated in either Ohio or Michigan ( AOA) and that the other is in a lot of places (ACGME). And that doing a DO gas residency can be problematic ( Not a problem as ACGME Ane is DO friendly).

Thanks, that makes sense. Hopefully in 2-3 years there will be a few more AOA program sites.

If you go to a DO school it is very unlikely that you will end up at an ACGME ortho or neurosurgery program. Its pretty much not going to happen.

AOA ortho, however, is a reasonable goal and if you do what you're suppose to do (research, good grades, good board scores) you should be able to become an orthopedic surgeon. The same can be said about AOA general surgery.

The same cannot be said about AOA neurosurgery, ent, optho, or urology because there are few spots. I think its more luck and who you know when applying to these residencies.

DOs do worse on the USMLE. I think the pass rate for DOs is around 80% for step 1. Why? I couldn't tell you. How well you do on boards is pretty much determined by your own work ethic, so it shouldn't matter where you go to school. I personally thought the USMLE was easier than the comlex.

Ok thanks. I tend to agree that board scores are dependent primarily on individual work ethic and intelligence to some extent. My girlfriend is an MS2 at an allopathic and she's worried that the DO USMLE statistics are lower because of the curriculum.

Ive always chalked the boards pass rate up to DO students winging it and taking the USMLE without full preparation for it. I cant see curriculum making a difference or enough of a difference. Its also not a secret that we as a group arent as good as MD students at taking standardized tests...ie the mcat difference.

Who knows the true reasons...but I dont buy the curriculum difference answer.

That's what I assumed too. That a good amount of DO students taking USMLE are doing it as a "might as well" kind of thing, but are primarily focusing on comlex.

The programs (in general) are bigger and better. That being said there are plenty of AOA programs that are at huge centers as well.

I personally am not really considering AOA (unless i blow ass on my step 1 in a month) because I dont agree with the way the AOA represents DOs and dont really want anything to do with them after I graduate med school. There are a few good AOA programs in my city in various specialties tho.

Good to know that there are a lot of AOA opportunities. Are you taking step 1 before you take comlex? I've also read a lot on sdn that the trend for ACGME hopefuls is to study mainly for step 1 and OMM since I guess step 1 prep is harder than comlex prep?

 

[willen101383]

3000 posts in the MCAT forum. Your response leads me to believe you belong in the pre-allo forums.



Thanks, that makes sense. Hopefully in 2-3 years there will be a few more AOA program sites.




Ok thanks. I tend to agree that board scores are dependent primarily on individual work ethic and intelligence to some extent. My girlfriend is an MS2 at an allopathic and she's worried that the DO USMLE statistics are lower because of the curriculum.



That's what I assumed too. That a good amount of DO students taking USMLE are doing it as a "might as well" kind of thing, but are primarily focusing on complex.



Good to know that there are a lot of AOA opportunities. Are you taking step 1 before you take complex? I've also read a lot on sdn that the trend for ACGME hopefuls is to study mainly for step 1 and OMM since I guess step 1 prep is harder than complex prep?

I hate to be that guy but its comLex no P in there haha. I am taking USMLE on May 22nd and then June 1st I am taking the comlex. I am targeting my studying toward USMLE because I am considering that to be my "primary" exam. I really just wanna pass comlex..sure if i get a good score great. Dont buy into the curriculum argument. The curricula are the same for the most part aside from OMM.

 

[MedPR]

I hate to be that guy but its comLex no P in there haha. I am taking USMLE on May 22nd and then June 1st I am taking the comlex. I am targeting my studying toward USMLE because I am considering that to be my "primary" exam. I really just wanna pass comlex..sure if i get a good score great. Dont buy into the curriculum argument. The curricula are the same for the most part aside from OMM.

Ha, thanks for pointing that out. Well, good luck. Everyone I know is taking their step 1 in mid to late June. Any reason why you decided to take both so early?

 

[willen101383]

Ha, thanks for pointing that out. Well, good luck. Everyone I know is taking their step 1 in mid to late June. Any reason why you decided to take both so early?

I start rotations june 11th. I have my buddy's wedding june 2nd and wont be back till the 4th. I wanted to have a week or so off before rotations start to tie up loose ends and get my house in order so my wife wont have to worry about that crap during the summer when I am on some aways.

 

[necronomicon]

And here is the location for finding the different AOA residency positions: http://www.opportunities.osteopathi...essionid=f030846602baa73134517f3f1fb1b776a175

 

[AlabamaPop]

I'm in the New York City area and I would like to hopefully do my residency and practice here. I know this is ignorant, but I really wanted to know, if I do a residency that is AOA (and not dual accredited with ACGME) would that affect getting a job overall?

 

[donkeykong1]

I'm in the New York City area and I would like to hopefully do my residency and practice here. I know this is ignorant, but I really wanted to know, if I do a residency that is AOA (and not dual accredited with ACGME) would that affect getting a job overall?

No. however if you would like to into academia, yes. becoming a PD at an AOA site requires AOA board certification, the same is true on the ACGME side.

 

[MedPR]

I start rotations june 11th. I have my buddy's wedding june 2nd and wont be back till the 4th. I wanted to have a week or so off before rotations start to tie up loose ends and get my house in order so my wife wont have to worry about that crap during the summer when I am on some aways.

3rd year rotations? Wow you guys start a lot earlier than my gf's school. She's taking step on June 22 and I think her rotations start the second week of July. Mind if I ask what school you're at?

And here is the location for finding the different AOA residency positions: http://www.opportunities.osteopathi...essionid=f030846602baa73134517f3f1fb1b776a175

Thank you!

 

[AlabamaPop]

No. however if you would like to into academia, yes. becoming a PD at an AOA site requires AOA board certification, the same is true on the ACGME side.

Yeah I'm going to try and get into ACGME residencies in Internal Medicine in New York, and hopefully get into one.

 

[donkeykong1]

Yeah I'm going to try and get into ACGME residencies in Internal Medicine in New York, and hopefully get into one.

That should definitely be in reach. pass the USMLE on your first try and you can get probably get into one of the many IM spots around NYC (community hospitals/clinics). If you're looking into IM at big academic centers though, you'll need some research, and an above average USMLE. the desire to complete a fellowship also complicates things. but still, this is all too far out in the future. gl

 

[DrMediterranean]

It's all about the OPTIs bro

 

[DrMediterranean]

No. however if you would like to into academia, yes. becoming a PD at an AOA site requires AOA board certification, the same is true on the ACGME side.

Not always true. I've watched lectures of a great EP doc who is an MD and program director of an AOA Cardiac Electrophysiology fellowship. So I don't think there is a rule that says it is "required" you have AOA certification in the fellowship or residency, because this MD certainly does not. I am assuming since EP is a small field in the osteopathic world, (only 2 places where you can do an AOA fellowship in this) it probably has something to do with it.

 

[donkeykong1]

It's all about the OPTIs bro

ha ha oh snap the OPTI is back even though its meaningless if we're talking ACGME,

we all know your MSU has got the best OPTI now and OU, PCOM are right behind....but in a few years i predict OU will surpass MSU with our 150 mill addition to the school's endowment and partnership with the Cleveland clinic ..OPTI slam lol...

 

[donkeykong1]

Not always true. I've watched lectures of a great EP doc who is an MD and program director of an AOA Cardiac Electrophysiology fellowship. So I don't think there is a rule that says it is "required" you have AOA certification in the fellowship or residency, because this MD certainly does not. I am assuming since EP is a small field in the osteopathic world, (only 2 places where you can do an AOA fellowship in this) it probably has something to do with it.

exactly, fields that specific which includes Urology and ENT...then things are kind of gray. in those areas docs usually know each other quite intimately AOA or ACGME. so academic positions are likely to be attainable.

also taking anesthesiology for example, here's what a recent article from "The DO" states:

"However, students need to select their residency route with an eye to the future because certain administrative positions within osteopathic medical education are closed to those who are not AOA board certified"

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=88571

 

[DrMediterranean]

exactly, fields that specific which includes Urology and ENT...then things are kind of gray. in those areas docs usually know each other quite intimately AOA or ACGME. so academic positions are likely to be attainable.

Gotcha. Makes sense really. The AOA programs always come after the ACGME ones, so it seems that sometimes you gotta have an MD to teach the DOs some new tricks.

 

[DrMediterranean]

ha ha oh snap the OPTI is back even though its meaningless if we're talking ACGME,

we all know your MSU has got the best OPTI now and OU, PCOM are right behind....but in a few years i predict OU will surpass MSU with our 150 mill addition to the school's endowment and partnership with the Cleveland clinic ..OPTI slam lol...

Nice! Didn't know OU was partnering with Cleveland Clinic. This is great news for DOs in general. 👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

exactly, fields that specific which includes Urology and ENT...then things are kind of gray. in those areas docs usually know each other quite intimately AOA or ACGME. so academic positions are likely to be attainable.

also taking anesthesiology for example, here's what a recent article from "The DO" states:

"However, students need to select their residency route with an eye to the future because certain administrative positions within osteopathic medical education are closed to those who are not AOA board certified"

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=88571

OUCOM is becoming more desirable, too bad it is in Ohio and requires living in Ohio for 5 years after residency.

 

[donkeykong1]

OUCOM is becoming more desirable, too bad it is in Ohio and requires living in Ohio for 5 years after residency.

ahhh serenade don't believe all the hoopla from a few years back. its not as bad as it sounds. OU has such a beautiful campus. though it is a "party" school with lots of bars NCAA div 1 football/basketball, there are tons of Phd and masters students here. its not too far from Columbus. you can get instate tuition after year1, buy out of the contract for 50k and pay back w/o interest, and practice/ get a residency spot anywhere you desire.

the OU CORE system has almost every residency/fellowship combo possible. also you can do a residency in the CORE and that satisfies the contract. Within the CORE, do primary care for 3 years, and you're done. do surgery for 5 you're done. complete any other residency for 4 and they'll null your final year.

also b/c of the 150 mill addition its OUHCOM (OU Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine) not OUCOM

 

[AlabamaPop]

That should definitely be in reach. pass the USMLE on your first try and you can get probably get into one of the many IM spots around NYC (community hospitals/clinics). If you're looking into IM at big academic centers though, you'll need some research, and an above average USMLE. the desire to complete a fellowship also complicates things. but still, this is all too far out in the future. gl

Well I was considering a fellowship in Endo...why would that make things more complicated?

 

[donkeykong1]

Well I was considering a fellowship in Endo...why would that make things more complicated?

Yup, if you're looking into Endo or Onco for that matter, you'll want to rank higher (like 1 or 2) those sites that maintain the fellowship spots internally since firstly you'll have a much better shot at those spots coming from the home institution and also you'll have more opportunities for research/networking.

also getting an endo fellowship in Manhattan in particular will be difficult since i think only Mount Sinai/nyu/columbia/cornell have them, and they're usually extremely prestigious and difficult to get as a DO. For endocrine you might want to look into Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island just sayin..

 

[AlabamaPop]

Yup, if you're looking into Endo or Onco for that matter, you'll want to rank higher (like 1 or 2) those sites that maintain the fellowship spots internally since firstly you'll have a much better shot at those spots coming from the home institution and also you'll have more opportunities for research/networking.

also getting an endo fellowship in Manhattan in particular will be difficult since i think only Mount Sinai/nyu/columbia/cornell have them, and they're usually extremely prestigious and difficult to get as a DO. For endocrine you might want to look into Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Long Island just sayin..

Yeah I'll definitely try to rock med school and the USMLE and beef up my application during the school years so I can get a good IM residency in NYC. I really don't mind being in BX, QNZ, or BK for fellowship. I wanna stay within the 5 boroughs lol as long as I can get the job done.

 

[donkeykong1]

Yeah I'll definitely try to rock med school and the USMLE and beef up my application during the school years so I can get a good IM residency in NYC. I really don't mind being in BX, QNZ, or BK for fellowship. I wanna stay within the 5 boroughs lol as long as I can get the job done.

Honestly I looked into the IM subspecialties as well (cards, endo, rheum..). As a DO if you look into the AOA IM residencies for example, they mostly take on something like 3-4 residents. The DO schools like OU, NYCOM and some others that have Endo fellowships at those sites take on their own residents usually. A close friend who is gunning for cards and is pgy-1 at AOA IM even told me that if you express interest really early in that position, you're more than likely to be accepted there as a fellow. Then again the number of ACGME endo spots completely outnumbers the AOA ones, so going ACGME would open more doors.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

ahhh serenade don't believe all the hoopla from a few years back. its not as bad as it sounds. OU has such a beautiful campus. though it is a "party" school with lots of bars NCAA div 1 football/basketball, there are tons of Phd and masters students here. its not too far from Columbus. you can get instate tuition after year1, buy out of the contract for 50k and pay back w/o interest, and practice/ get a residency spot anywhere you desire.

the OU CORE system has almost every residency/fellowship combo possible. also you can do a residency in the CORE and that satisfies the contract. Within the CORE, do primary care for 3 years, and you're done. do surgery for 5 you're done. complete any other residency for 4 and they'll null your final year.

also b/c of the 150 mill addition its OUHCOM (OU Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine) not OUCOM

Will doing an ACGME primary care residency in Ohio still reduce the 5 years to 2? How about doing a residency + fellowship outside of Ohio and then returning to practice for 5 years? Will that result in penalization?

 

[AlabamaPop]

Honestly I looked into the IM subspecialties as well (cards, endo, rheum..). As a DO if you look into the AOA IM residencies for example, they mostly take on something like 3-4 residents. The DO schools like OU, NYCOM and some others that have Endo fellowships at those sites take on their own residents usually. A close friend who is gunning for cards and is pgy-1 at AOA IM even told me that if you express interest really early in that position, you're more than likely to be accepted there as a fellow. Then again the number of ACGME endo spots completely outnumbers the AOA ones, so going ACGME would open more doors.

I mean DO itself is increasingly rapidly throughout these last 3-4 years that its incredible. I won't be worrying about any of this until 4 years from now, so the more time passes by, I feel the more easier it will be for us by that time in comparison till now.

 

[donkeykong1]

Will doing an ACGME primary care residency in Ohio still reduce the 5 years to 2? How about doing a residency + fellowship outside of Ohio and then returning to practice for 5 years? Will that result in penalization?

Doing an ACGME residency in Ohio wouldn't count for the 5 years. You can always do a residency/fellowship outside of Ohio (ACGME or AOA) and come back sometime down the road to practice or even teach/research for 5 years. Most OOS students either do an AOA residency here or just buy out the contract and pay it back over a few years alongside school loans. Keep in mind that the school is not out to get you, they will work with you the entire time. OUHCOM is one of the most student friendly schools out there, they'll treat you like family the moment you walk into the door, if you're lucky enough to get an interview.

 

[donkeykong1]

I mean DO itself is increasingly rapidly throughout these last 3-4 years that its incredible. I won't be worrying about any of this until 4 years from now, so the more time passes by, I feel the more easier it will be for us by that time in comparison till now.

for sure. We'll know in June if things will kind of get easier since the ACGME is considering limiting ACGME fellowships only to those who complete ACGME residencies. Word around SDN is that they'll amend that to include AOA residencies but we won't know until mid june.

 

[willen101383]

3rd year rotations? Wow you guys start a lot earlier than my gf's school. She's taking step on June 22 and I think her rotations start the second week of July. Mind if I ask what school you're at?



Thank you!

Yep 3rd year. We finish our 3rd trimester of M2 in 2 weeks. I am at PCOM philly.

 

[pseudoMCAT45]

ahhh serenade don't believe all the hoopla from a few years back. its not as bad as it sounds. OU has such a beautiful campus. though it is a "party" school with lots of bars NCAA div 1 football/basketball, there are tons of Phd and masters students here. its not too far from Columbus. you can get instate tuition after year1, buy out of the contract for 50k and pay back w/o interest, and practice/ get a residency spot anywhere you desire.

Correct me if I am wrong, but i heard getting state tuition at OU is a tedious process and most of OOS students start to get their IS tuition on their 3rd year. Also, isn't it nearly impossible to rotate outside of CORE system? If so, how can ppl get matched into competitive residencies outside of Ohio? I was accepted but chose not to go OUCOM for those 2 reasons 🙁 Let me know if that has been changed thx!

 

[donkeykong1]

Correct me if I am wrong, but i heard getting state tuition at OU is a tedious process and most of OOS students start to get their IS tuition on their 3rd year. Also, isn't it nearly impossible to rotate outside of CORE system? If so, how can ppl get matched into competitive residencies outside of Ohio? I was accepted but chose not to go OUCOM for those 2 reasons 🙁 Let me know if that has been changed thx!

1. Getting instate tuition is not "tedious". You basically need to change your plates/license, and show that you've been paying your bills only out of your account (not parents) with savings, loans etc..All of this is shown on a single form that is all. Or if you know someone in Ohio, you can get them to place you as a dependent on their tax forms, thus making you an instater automatically.

2. You can definitely rotate outside the CORE, you simply need to file a form or two and get approval from the school. People do match outside the CORE in ACGME residencies all the time. almost all the IM matches this year were ACGME. We had a match at DMC for ACGME ENT, Tufts and UW for gas. People go all over.

I would argue why even go outside the CORE? Its one of the most organized and established rotating systems out there. If you're seeking an elective say in a ROAD or surgical sub-specilaty, you're covered by the CORE. Other schools would leave you all alone trying to figure out VSAS and calling up individual hospitals for a clerkship. you're also fortunate enough to spend 2 years rotating in a single location-UNLIKE SOME OTHER SCHOOLS. Even if you want to go ACGME, an audition rotation does not weigh heavily in the match process----the same cannot be said for AOA residencies.

Here is the form you have to get filled out by the attending supervising your clerkship outside the CORE. They basically apply for adjunct faculty status---as just a formality:
http://www.ohiocore.org/gfx/media/contribute/OU-COMCOREGroupIVprofiletocomplete.pdf

There is a list of places outside the CORE already approved for electives as well, all over the U.S. This is all i could find however online. It only has the names of the attending faculty, that you can google and figure out their location:

http://www.ohiocore.org/gfx/media/contribute/WebsitebySpecialty.pdf

 

[rad0nc]

Ok thanks. I tend to agree that board scores are dependent primarily on individual work ethic and intelligence to some extent. My girlfriend is an MS2 at an allopathic and she's worried that the DO USMLE statistics are lower because of the curriculum.

I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as the curriculum making you do worse on step 1. The reason that DO students do worse on the USMLE exams is the same reason that DO students don't do as well on the MCAT, grades, etc. It is a population difference based on the type of student you are starting with. DO students score an entire standard deviation lower than MD students on the MCAT, therefore it makes sense that they would not do well on the USMLE.

If you are going for a 33+ as it states in the opening post, you will be doing better than the average MD student. I would expect you to score above average on the USMLE as well.

 

[papalambros]

for sure. We'll know in June if things will kind of get easier since the ACGME is considering limiting ACGME fellowships only to those who complete ACGME residencies. Word around SDN is that they'll amend that to include AOA residencies but we won't know until mid june.

Isn't this proposal a bit disconcerting to DOs interested in pursuing an MD residency?

"Prerequisite clinical education for entry into ACGME-accredited residency programs must be accomplished in ACGME-accredited residency programs or Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC)-accredited residency programs located in Canada."

I'm thinking they meant "...must be accomplished in ACGME-accredited medical school." Does anyone know more about this or what's being done about it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

 

[SoulinNeed]

Isn't this proposal a bit disconcerting to DOs interested in pursuing an MD residency?

"Prerequisite clinical education for entry into ACGME-accredited residency programs must be accomplished in ACGME-accredited residency programs or Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC)-accredited residency programs located in Canada."

I'm thinking they meant "...must be accomplished in ACGME-accredited medical school." Does anyone know more about this or what's being done about it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

What the proposal means is that ACGME fellowships will only be available to those who complete ACGME residencies (be they MD or DO students).

 

[Druggernaut]

I mean DO itself is increasingly rapidly throughout these last 3-4 years that its incredible. I won't be worrying about any of this until 4 years from now, so the more time passes by, I feel the more easier it will be for us by that time in comparison till now.

Getting into good residency and fellowship programs will be harder, not easier. DO and MD school expansions are way out in front of graduate medical education (resident and fellowship) expansion, which means that there won't be enough spots to go around. By the class of 2015 or 2016, it's anticipated that there will be more graduates than GME slots, which means that your medical degree is worthless.

As of right now, DOs can apply to MD residencies and fellowships without too much discrimination. But it's reasonable to assume that the allopathic world will look to protect their own, and discrimination will increase. We're already seeing this with the proposed closure of ACGME fellowships to AOA residency graduates. If ACGME residencies followed suit (which is unlikely to happen to the extent that they're closing off fellowships), osteopathic graduates would be forced to try for AOA residencies. There aren't enough of those for every DO graduate as it is, each school that opens that exacerbates the situation more.

I'm a little worried about residency too, and I'm a class of 2015'er. I don't envy you guys planning on applying in a few years.

 

[fletchffletch]

By the class of 2015 or 2016, it's anticipated that there will be more graduates than GME slots, which means that your medical degree is worthless.

I would be more concerned about being an IMG/FMG at this point. Here's the graph from the NEJM article you're talking about.
http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519&iid=f01

 

[donkeykong1]

I would be more concerned about being an IMG/FMG at this point. Here's the graph from the NEJM article you're talking about.
http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519&iid=f01

Yes. Firstly the graph only compares the number of MD/DO/MDfmg/img grads to number of ACGME not AOA residencies. Even with the increase in MD/DO class seats, it will be difficult to fill ACGME slots with just US allopaths.

Also note that GME is hopefully expanding-both AOA and ACGME. several bills in congress right now working on this.

Secondly, LCME accredited schools do gets shut down as well (see san juan in purto rico), and multiple schools are on probation.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Getting into good residency and fellowship programs will be harder, not easier. DO and MD school expansions are way out in front of graduate medical education (resident and fellowship) expansion, which means that there won't be enough spots to go around. By the class of 2015 or 2016, it's anticipated that there will be more graduates than GME slots, which means that your medical degree is worthless.

As of right now, DOs can apply to MD residencies and fellowships without too much discrimination. But it's reasonable to assume that the allopathic world will look to protect their own, and discrimination will increase. We're already seeing this with the proposed closure of ACGME fellowships to AOA residency graduates. If ACGME residencies followed suit (which is unlikely to happen to the extent that they're closing off fellowships), osteopathic graduates would be forced to try for AOA residencies. There aren't enough of those for every DO graduate as it is, each school that opens that exacerbates the situation more.

I'm a little worried about residency too, and I'm a class of 2015'er. I don't envy you guys planning on applying in a few years.

OK, let's relax on the doom and gloom here, lol.

 

[donkeykong1]

OK, let's relax on the doom and gloom here, lol.

Right on. also regarding the proposed fellowship restriction. here's the latest:

"President Levine led a conference call of the AOA Executive Committee last evening to review progress made by five task forces created during the 2012 Board Retreat to examine several key education-related issues facing the profession. Trustees also heard updates on profession-wide advocacy to repeal the ACGME’s proposed Common Program Requirements that would limit the ability of DOs to train in ACGME programs, which included recent meetings with ACGME leadership in AOA offices. President Levine and President-elect Ray E. Stowers, DO, briefed Trustees on their recent trips to COMs and affiliates’ meetings, as did our General Counsel, Joshua Prober, JD, regarding the Supreme Court hearings last month on the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act.&#8203; "

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ily-report-blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=2450

 

[fletchffletch]

OK, let's relax on the doom and gloom here, lol.

Completely agree. What I found odd about that piece was looking at the graph, projected MD+DO grads combined was still less then the total number of ACGME residencies available (at 2010 levels) through 2020, yet the person in the article had the same similar pitch about a worthless degree.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Completely agree. What I found odd about that piece was looking at the graph, projected MD+DO grads combined was still less then the total number of ACGME residencies available (at 2010 levels) through 2020, yet the person in the article had the same similar pitch about a worthless degree.

I still believe that growth will continue at .9%, and like it's been said, this doesn't include AOA spots, which are also growing. In the end, we can only go by the numbers, and things have been getting better for DO's, not worse. This year, the match rate for DO's in the ACGME match was 75%, the highest it's ever been, I believe, even though more DO's applied than ever. Now, while I don't think it'll get higher than 75% (and it'll probably drop just a bit, because historically the match rate for DO's in the ACGME has been around 70%). In the end, FMG/IMGs are the ones who are feeling the crunch, from the numbers we've gotten thus far.

SDN loves the doom and gloom, but I think people need to relax just a bit.

 

[Druggernaut]

I may have come across as too negative, but there's no way things will get better anytime soon. You'll match for a while yet, but more people competing for about the same number of spots will not work out in your favor. You don't think the ACGME will be less friendly to DOs when the number of newly minted MDs approaches the limit of their residency positions?

The government will have to put more funding into GME eventually in order to ensure every graduate has a residency spot if schools keep popping up at the rate that they are. Considering they were looking to cut about 1/3 of the funding recently, you can't be too optimistic about that. Other professional school graduates find themselves unemployed (look at law schools), it would be naïve to think medicine is immune from it. Maybe it's an overreaction, but I'd prefer to start thinking about problems while there's still time to work on a solution.

 

[donkeykong1]

I may have come across as too negative, but there's no way things will get better anytime soon. You'll match for a while yet, but more people competing for about the same number of spots will not work out in your favor. You don't think the ACGME will be less friendly to DOs when the number of newly minted MDs approaches the limit of their residency positions?

The government will have to put more funding into GME eventually in order to ensure every graduate has a residency spot if schools keep popping up at the rate that they are. Considering they were looking to cut about 1/3 of the funding recently, you can't be too optimistic about that. Other professional school graduates find themselves unemployed (look at law schools), it would be naïve to think medicine is immune from it. Maybe it's an overreaction, but I'd prefer to start thinking about problems while there's still time to work on a solution.

the country desperately needs doctors not lawyers. your lawyer analogy is invalid since they don't require post grad training to practice. they're simply unemployed due to an oversupply of lawyers hence less demand. though i agree its always good to be cautious.