Would you give up a DO acceptance to do an SMP and re-apply MD?

[MedChic]

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[TexasTriathlete]

So here's something about PCOM...

The MD/PhD who is a buddy of my uncle's was a professor/scientist at UPenn at the time (now working with some pharm company or something). He told me that PCOM was as good as any of the med schools in Philly, including his. Hell, there are about a million PCOM DO's on staff at UPenn, including the director of cardiology: http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=5286

At PCOM-philly, you will rotate with students from Temple, Jeff, UPenn, and Drexel. The medical education doesn't get much better than what they've got going in Philly. If you land PCOM, take it and close up shop.

I am headed to their new one in Georgia, for specific reasons, and it looks like they will be carrying on the tradition. At least, I am hopeful.

 

[sexyman]

I understand the logic, but think in terms of practice - no one would say that. It reeks of a subtle attempt by a DO to try and pretend as though they're akin to MD. Whether they are or not isn't my point. In fact, if a doctor believed their equivalence, he wouldn't have bothered to mention both to some douche bag from a Saudi med school.

Beef you may be confused-

This conversation happened at an interview not in practice. The guy who said it was NOT a DO, he got his medical degree in INDIA. He made the comment to a person interviewing for a residency spot that graduated from a CARIB school...

 

[MedChic]

So here's something about PCOM...

The MD/PhD who is a buddy of my uncle's was a professor/scientist at UPenn at the time (now working with some pharm company or something). He told me that PCOM was as good as any of the med schools in Philly, including his. Hell, there are about a million PCOM DO's on staff at UPenn, including the director of cardiology: http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=5286

At PCOM-philly, you will rotate with students from Temple, Jeff, UPenn, and Drexel. The medical education doesn't get much better than what they've got going in Philly. If you land PCOM, take it and close up shop.

I am headed to their new one in Georgia, for specific reasons, and it looks like they will be carrying on the tradition. At least, I am hopeful.

Yea, I heard really great things about PCOM also.
Congrats on your acceptance btw!
I think it's the school to go into if specializing is your goal, so I know I'd be lucky to get in. I am interviewing at PCOM-philly and I heard they have awesome rotations. Like I said I was excited about all my interviews before nit-picking my future and focusing on other peoples' opinions. My doc had nothing against DO's but seemed to be certain they were mostly primary care docs, maybe bc he was old school. It seems though that many other people have different experiences. And I know focusing on one person's opinion is a thing that I need to get over

 

[Pansit]

Hey guys,
Please don't flame me for asking this question, because I truly believe MD=DO, but it IS harder to gain entry into a super-competitive allo specialty with a DO as opposed to MD.
This is NOT an MD vs. DO thread and I'm posting it here because I want opinions from those who are leaning towards the MD.
I was speaking to my physician and I mentioned that I am considering going to osteopathic school. After telling him about my personal statistics, he basically advised me to do an SMP and re-apply to MD schools because he thought I was a borderline candidate at this point and if I applied to schools after an SMP I would probably have a good chance to gain entry into an allo school.

Here's the thing: I graduated 1 year ago so taking an extra yr off would put me a little more behind. I really want to start my career but at the same time I really want a good shot at some of the more competitive specialties.

So do you think I should risk it with the SMP?

Medchik do a quick scan of DO school matchlists, print it out and staple it to your doctors door, and highlight specifically the matches for Neurosurgery or dermatology..etc and that should ease your worries about "specializing". One school in particular, DMU, graduates 60% specialties (EM, Surgery, Opth, Derm, Rads..etc). If you specifically want a super uber competitive allo residency, then yes, maybe it might be a much harder road for a DO....but if you just want any specialty residency, DO's get into those all the time (MD or DO programs)

 

[Bacchus]

So here's something about PCOM...

The MD/PhD who is a buddy of my uncle's was a professor/scientist at UPenn at the time (now working with some pharm company or something). He told me that PCOM was as good as any of the med schools in Philly, including his. Hell, there are about a million PCOM DO's on staff at UPenn, including the director of cardiology: http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=5286

At PCOM-philly, you will rotate with students from Temple, Jeff, UPenn, and Drexel. The medical education doesn't get much better than what they've got going in Philly. If you land PCOM, take it and close up shop.

I am headed to their new one in Georgia, for specific reasons, and it looks like they will be carrying on the tradition. At least, I am hopeful.

You make me water at the mouth, haha. Here's to next season and applying!

 

[Geekchick921]

Yea, I heard really great things about PCOM also.
Congrats on your acceptance btw!
I think it's the school to go into if specializing is your goal, so I know I'd be lucky to get in. I am interviewing at PCOM-philly and I heard they have awesome rotations. Like I said I was excited about all my interviews before nit-picking my future and focusing on other peoples' opinions. My doc had nothing against DO's but seemed to be certain they were mostly primary care docs, maybe bc he was old school. It seems though that many other people have different experiences. And I know focusing on one person's opinion is a thing that I need to get over

I work in a hospital just outside of the city, and I know of a bunch of DOs on staff that went to PCOM, at least one being family practice and we all love her (this is just off the top of my head, there are many more). While I know they say you often change your specialty after 3rd year rotations, I'm pretty sure Family Practice and Internal Medicine have more residency spots than they do residency applicants (not sure about Peds). If you're not set on an uber-competitive specialty, then take the DO acceptance.

Good luck with PCOM!

 

[ArchiMed]

Hey guys,
Please don't flame me for asking this question, because I truly believe MD=DO, but it IS harder to gain entry into a super-competitive allo specialty with a DO as opposed to MD.
This is NOT an MD vs. DO thread and I'm posting it here because I want opinions from those who are leaning towards the MD.
I was speaking to my physician and I mentioned that I am considering going to osteopathic school. After telling him about my personal statistics, he basically advised me to do an SMP and re-apply to MD schools because he thought I was a borderline candidate at this point and if I applied to schools after an SMP I would probably have a good chance to gain entry into an allo school.

Here's the thing: I graduated 1 year ago so taking an extra yr off would put me a little more behind. I really want to start my career but at the same time I really want a good shot at some of the more competitive specialties.

So do you think I should risk it with the SMP?

ok...so you are going to hear statistics supporting and contradicting the DO route but I wanted to give you what I know....my father, sister, and brother-n-law all went the DO route...they all specialized and didn't have any issues (OBGYN, anesthesia, and surgery-colorectal)...and I know my sister had friends that specialized without any problems. I know they are all very happy with their decision and would advise you in a heartbeat to go that route....it's your decision though...you're still young, so you have time to wait if you don't think you want to go that route....

 

[gman33]

I'm a little confused, are you already accepted to any DO schools?
If so, I would go with that and get started. As long as you do well and get a high USMLE score you should be able to match into the specialty you desire. As others have said, PCOM has a good history of matching into all specialties. I'm a student in Philly and have lived here my whole life, I can tell you the school is well regarded. No way would I give up a spot, waste 2 more years, just to have a slightly better shot at getting an MD acceptance.

Does MD open a few more doors to some specialties? Maybe, but that can be debated. Is it better to go to Harvard then Podunk State? Probably, but I wouldn't waste a few years trying to build up my credentials to go to Harvard. In the end, no one is really going to care where you went to school or what the initials are after your name. It's more about what you accomplish on your own. Talk to some recent graduates from DO schools. See what they are doing now.

 

[DoctorNB]

Like most posts in here...go with the DO. I think people underestimate how many DO's are in specialities that are competitive whether you are a MD or a DO. In my case, the DO I am shadowing is in plastics, entered a very competitive residency program and excelled.

Focus on getting into a med school, MD or DO, once you are there, you will figure out what you want. You might find that you really do want FM over a hardcore speciality. Like other posts in this forum, during residency, you will find fantastic MDs/DOs, but you will also find good to ok MDs/DOs. It's really not a matter of what everyone else, in my opinion, its what you do that should matter.

MD or DO will suit any other speciality just fine, if you are willing to do what it takes to get there.

 

[MedChic]

I'm a little confused, are you already accepted to any DO schools?
If so, I would go with that and get started. As long as you do well and get a high USMLE score you should be able to match into the specialty you desire. As others have said, PCOM has a good history of matching into all specialties. I'm a student in Philly and have lived here my whole life, I can tell you the school is well regarded. No way would I give up a spot, waste 2 more years, just to have a slightly better shot at getting an MD acceptance.

Does MD open a few more doors to some specialties? Maybe, but that can be debated. Is it better to go to Harvard then Podunk State? Probably, but I wouldn't waste a few years trying to build up my credentials to go to Harvard. In the end, no one is really going to care where you went to school or what the initials are after your name. It's more about what you accomplish on your own. Talk to some recent graduates from DO schools. See what they are doing now.

No I have 6 interviews, which is why I'm trying to decide before I get an acceptance (blatantly and probably tactlessly assuming that I will). I'm not sure if I will attend most of these interviews due to cost as well.
I also want to be fair to the schools and other DO applicants. Like I said when I applied I was all gung-ho about MD and DO schools; its just my recent discussions that have made me question things.

To all the other responses, it seems like the general consensus is that DO's fare just as well. I think I'm going to find some DO's in the specialties I'm interested in and email them.

Ugh, I wish there were no docs in my family - they're telling me to go abroad to get my MD because of cost and the "difference of the degree" - thing is I know otherwise: US DO>>FMG, even according to the doc that suggested I re-apply MD. I don't realy know if that's a myth or not also.

 

[Jolie South]

No I have 6 interviews, which is why I'm trying to decide before I get an acceptance (blatantly and probably tactlessly assuming that I will). I'm not sure if I will attend most of these interviews due to cost as well.
I also want to be fair to the schools and other DO applicants. Like I said when I applied I was all gung-ho about MD and DO schools; its just my recent discussions that have made me question things.

I think that you should keep all of your interviews until you have an acceptance in hand. You want to maximize the chances that you'll have to get in this year. Less interviews = less chances.

If money is a concern, maybe schedule some of them further out, so that you won't be shelling out a huge amount all at once for airfare/hotels.

Also, try staying with the student hosts. that will save you some bucks.

 

[MedChic]

Hungarian, huh.

My mother is an MD and she encouraged me to apply DO. Sorry your family has no clue.

No, I know they don't really know about DO's.
They think it's better to go the FMG route. Not that they're ignorant, they just have no experience working with doctors who have different degrees in Europe. I have an Eastern/Western European mix in the family these days and about 4 doctors all with degrees from abroad and all living and working there at least half of the time. One of my uncles came to the US to practice and he's doing pretty well for himself as an MD FMG, but he had to go through a lot of crap to get there. I don't really want to deal with finding my own residency without going through the match process through an American school, be it MD or DO.

Is your mom an American MD?

 

[Gut Shot]

There are 100+ DO only dermatology spots.

I counted 99, although these are the ones approved by the American Osteopathic College of Dermatology.

Regardless, there are approximately 1,000 MD dermatology spots, so given that DO's make up 17% of current domestic medical school graduates, one is at a statistical disadvantage as a DO.

Also consider that in 2007, over 50% of graduating osteopaths entered the allopathic match, with 68.8% matching. The match rate for senior allopathic students was 93.4%.

I understand that the burgeoning DOs here are excited about their future careers and opportunities, but it's sobering to realize that the AOA has been allowing new schools to open without increasing residency positions to accomodate graduates. Digest this for a moment:

 

[Kthanksbye]

I counted 99, although these are the ones approved by the American Osteopathic College of Dermatology.

Regardless, there are approximately 1,000 MD dermatology spots, so given that DO's make up 17% of current domestic medical school graduates, one is at a statistical disadvantage as a DO.

Also consider that in 2007, over 50% of graduating osteopaths entered the allopathic match, with 68.8% matching. The match rate for senior allopathic students was 93.4%.

I understand that the burgeoning DOs here are exicted about their future careers and opportunities, but it's sobering to realize that the AOA has been allowing new schools to open without increasing residency positions to accomodate graduates. Digest this for a moment:

I don't have fancy graphs, but I've also heard that even though there has been some modest increases in MD positions, with more to come, there has been virtually no increase in MD residency spots. Add that to what Gut shot is saying about DO student increases without corresponding increases in DO residency programs, and it appears that residency programs are going to be increasingly competitive for everyone until these discrepancies have had a chance to even out, which may take some time. I don't know if greater competition means that MDs will have an advantage over DOs for the existing residencies, but that's the assumption a lot of people are making. Something to think about.

 

[notdeadyet]

Regardless, there are approximately 1,000 MD dermatology spots, so given that DO's make up 17% of current domestic medical school graduates, one is at a statistical disadvantage as a DO.

According to a 2005 JAMA article, there are a total of 19 osteopaths currently among the 1,000 MD derm spots. Given that 47% of osteopaths apply to enter allopathic residencies, this means that either some programs discriminate against osteopaths or very very few osteopaths have any desire to enter dermatology.

Also consider that in 2007, over 50% of graduating osteopaths entered the allopathic match, with 68.8% matching. The match rate for senior allopathic students was 93.4%.

I wonder how much of the delta between allopathic and osteopathic applicants is due to testing. Do any DO schools teach to the USMLE's, or do osteopaths do this on their own in addition to studying for COMLEX? I've heard from friends that though many allopathic programs accept the COMLEX scores, it is usually wise to take the USMLE, which has to be an annoying hurdle.

 

[notdeadyet]

I don't have fancy graphs, but I've also heard that even though there has been some modest increases in MD positions, with more to come, there has been virtually no increase in MD residency spots. Add that to what Gut shot is saying about DO student increases without corresponding increases in DO residency programs, and it appears that residency programs are going to be increasingly competitive for everyone until these discrepancies have had a chance to even out, which may take some time.

This is a concern that I have. I think that residency programs across the board are going to be more competitive and that squeeze is going to be felt by everyone. What I think you're going to find is that more and more folks hoping for popular residencies are going to be left more likely to enter less popular residencies, which right now are (sadly) primary care.

I wouldn't advise anyone against pursuing a DO degree. As I've said on many threads, I seriously considered that option myself. But I would do so with both eyes open, both to the possible challenges (note: challenges, not impossibility) you might face (such as if your heart is set on competitive allopathic residencies) as well as the advantages the DO can also offer that are great selling points to head that route (philosophy, primary care emphasis at many schools, non-traditiona student bodies, etc.).

 

[notdeadyet]

As for the number of residencies, I completely agree. AOA does need to get a move on in terms of increasing the number of specialty residencies. There are plenty of primary care residencies, and many go unfilled, but there definitely does need to be more specialty residencies to match the growing number of physicians.

AOA's not alone there. The allopaths need to start increasing their residency spots or you're going to find more and more disgruntled PCPs...

 

[notdeadyet]

Of course, the problem of having too many specialists and not enough PCPs is certainly something to think about, and cutting back on the number of specialty residencies/fellowships would certainly do something to correct the balance.

Absolutely. I just don't think that things like this tide are communicated effectively to medical students, much less pre-meds.

If I opt to go specialty and can not, I'm completely content being a FP somewhere. But there's lots who aren't. And I shudder at the thought of a lot of these type A med student personalities who are driven to thoracic surgery to only find PCP specialties available to them. That'll make for some disgruntled health care providers.

 

[Jolie South]

Absolutely. I just don't think that things like this tide are communicated effectively to medical students, much less pre-meds.

If I opt to go specialty and can not, I'm completely content being a FP somewhere. But there's lots who aren't. And I shudder at the thought of a lot of these type A med student personalities who are driven to thoracic surgery to only find PCP specialties available to them. That'll make for some disgruntled health care providers.

I think if PCPs were compensated as well as the specialties, that there would be a lot more people that would go that route.

 

[Old Grunt]

This has been asked before and I believe the consensus was that it's a really, really bad idea. Why did you even apply to a school you didn't want to go to? That is the question all schools will ask when you reapply the next year. Chances are, you won't even get a chance to answer it, since they'll just skip over you for an interview.

I think that response is highly speculative.

To the OP, it's your life. I doubt most medical allopathic medical schools will grill you about your decision, though osteopathic ones might.

To me, it's a no-brainer, I'd enroll in medical school, but it's your decision and only you can make that call. If you are dying for a competitive residency, you are making a hard decision now predicated on the belief that you will nail med school, your boards, and then even be competitive for those residencies.

 

[Old Grunt]

I think if PCPs were compensated as well as the specialties, that there would be a lot more people that would go that route.

I agree, but I think the specialists can make a pretty good arguement along the "more highly trained=more money" lines. As important as PCPs are, I can't begrudge someone with more schooling making more money.

I say that as someone who would like to go into primary care.

 

[Jolie South]

I agree, but I think the specialists can make a pretty good arguement along the "more highly trained=more money" lines. As important as PCPs are, I can't begrudge someone with more schooling making more money.

I say that as someone who would like to go into primary care.

I don't disagree. I just think that it is a factor in people's career choices.

I would also like to do internal medicine/infectious disease, so I'm right there with you on the lower end of the payscale. This is even one subspecialty where extra training does not equal higher salary. 🙁

 

[pakbabydoll]

Stick with DO. Why would you waste one whole year, money, on the chance that you MIGHT get in allo school next year.

 

[Beau Geste]

No, I know they don't really know about DO's.
They think it's better to go the FMG route. Not that they're ignorant, they just have no experience working with doctors who have different degrees in Europe. I have an Eastern/Western European mix in the family these days and about 4 doctors all with degrees from abroad and all living and working there at least half of the time. One of my uncles came to the US to practice and he's doing pretty well for himself as an MD FMG, but he had to go through a lot of crap to get there. I don't really want to deal with finding my own residency without going through the match process through an American school, be it MD or DO.

Is your mom an American MD?

Yes.

 

[fuzzball]

FYI, people (patients) love their DOs. And one of the few docs in the ER where I volunteered who paid any attention to me and actually invited me to observe and learn from him was a DO. Plus you get to learn that cool osteopathic manipulation stuff. I would go DO if there was a conveniently located school. And who knows, if it doesn't work out for me, perhaps I will just conveniently re-locate myself next year.

 

[caliprincess]

Do you REALLY want to spend potentially $30,000+ to possibly NOT get into med school next cycle? Take the D.O. acceptance and run with the wind my friend!

 

[sexyman]

If I opt to go specialty and can not, I'm completely content being a FP somewhere. But there's lots who aren't. And I shudder at the thought of a lot of these type A med student personalities who are driven to thoracic surgery to only find PCP specialties available to them. That'll make for some disgruntled health care providers.

Interesting point. I would like to add that it is certainly ironic how such a large majority of pre-meds express an interest in DERM, RADS, ANESTESHIA before they have ever had any type of exposure to those specialties. Do you think it has to do with them picking from a chart like this?

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

Sure it does. So to be honest I have no sympathy for the majority of the students that are so hell bent on matching these super competitive residency. If you are so disgusted by primary care then why did you become a doctor?

In some cases it makes sense to me. Ex: if you really want to be surgeon. A friend of mine (that I already mentioned in this thread) told me he would cut his d*ck off if he had to go into primary care. Guess what? It looks like he might be di*kless soon, but we dont know yet. It is his fault for going to med school in the first place. There is no gaurantee of derm, rads, or anes. I dont mean to put those specialties down but in a too extreme point of view 'dont go to med school because your goal in life is to be rich and lazy'.

BTW- I am a hardcore capitalist; i just like to see people be successful for the right reasons.

 

[Gut Shot]

This assumes that there is an equivalent number of DOs and MDs that want to go into dermatology, which is not true.

Indeed, but I cannot parse the significance of that assumption out of the available data. Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but those 100 spots represent all 3-4 years of residency training, so the actual number of positions offered each year may range from only 25-33. Competition could conceivably be even worse than for allopathic spots.

In any case, dermatology is merely and example. Regardless of specialty inclinations, a substantial proportion DO graduates will attempt the allopathic match. According to the JAOA (104:82-86, 2004), in 2000 there were 4,175 osteopathic grads were training in ACGME programs, versus 2,781 in AOA programs. Unfortunately, those attempting to gain such positions will do so at significantly lower rates than their MD counterparts.

 

[Pansit]

I counted 99, although these are the ones approved by the American Osteopathic College of Dermatology.

Regardless, there are approximately 1,000 MD dermatology spots, so given that DO's make up 17% of current domestic medical school graduates, one is at a statistical disadvantage as a DO.

Also consider that in 2007, over 50% of graduating osteopaths entered the allopathic match, with 68.8% matching. The match rate for senior allopathic students was 93.4%.

I understand that the burgeoning DOs here are exicted about their future careers and opportunities, but it's sobering to realize that the AOA has been allowing new schools to open without increasing residency positions to accomodate graduates. Digest this for a moment:

How the heck do you know they are not going to open up new residency spots...they are opening new schools, but those schools wont be graduating anybody for another 3 or more years (and even longer for the multitude of schools opening in the next few years)...so if you wait maybe 5 years, there might be more speciality residencies everywhere. Anyway, with about half of DO's going ACGME (meaning they skipped the AOA or tried something really really competitive) that "disproportionate" spots in dermatology doesnt seem as disporportionate. If you have the numbers, you will have a good shot...its that easy.

 

[Old Grunt]

I don't disagree. I just think that it is a factor in people's career choices.

I would also like to do internal medicine/infectious disease, so I'm right there with you on the lower end of the payscale. This is even one subspecialty where extra training does not equal higher salary. 🙁

Yeah, but the best generally rise to the top. Average salaries are just that, averages.

 

[Jolie South]

Yeah, but the best generally rise to the top. Average salaries are just that, averages.

that's a good point.

and my mom thinks i'm smart so who knows how far i'll go . . .. haha j/k

 

[Old Grunt]

that's a good point.

and my mom thinks i'm smart so who knows how far i'll go . . .. haha j/k

Imagine that, my mom thinks I am pretty awesome too.

The rest of the world thinks I am a jerk though, so I guess I'll just have to average it as "semi-awesome".

 

[sicko]

If you don't like DO schools or don't want to convince people you are relevant, then don't go to DO schools at all. If you do, you will regret it.

I want to get into MD schools 'cuz I think they are simply better. But if I can't get into a MD school, I will fall back to a DO school. I really don't mind dancing around the question "Are you a real doctor?"

 

[TopDocChick]

Hey guys,
Please don't flame me for asking this question, because I truly believe MD=DO, but it IS harder to gain entry into a super-competitive allo specialty with a DO as opposed to MD.
This is NOT an MD vs. DO thread and I'm posting it here because I want opinions from those who are leaning towards the MD.
I was speaking to my physician and I mentioned that I am considering going to osteopathic school. After telling him about my personal statistics, he basically advised me to do an SMP and re-apply to MD schools because he thought I was a borderline candidate at this point and if I applied to schools after an SMP I would probably have a good chance to gain entry into an allo school.

Here's the thing: I graduated 1 year ago so taking an extra yr off would put me a little more behind. I really want to start my career but at the same time I really want a good shot at some of the more competitive specialties.

So do you think I should risk it with the SMP?

You made a mistake by applying to DO in the first place- it doesn't mean you have to stick with that mistake. If your specialty wants MD, then apply MD.
Have the battle now so your sailing is smoother later.

 

[cel083]

i think you mean OD

No, a DO can be an opthalmologist, just like an MD.

See American Osteopathic College of Ophthalmology

http://www.aocoohns.org/oph-faq.html

Then again, since you've been banned, you can't really access this website from this forum, can you?

To the OP: go DO, so that you can prove all of the naysayers wrong, that only an MD can do certain specialties.

 

[JackDanielMD]

If you don't like DO schools or don't want to convince people you are relevant, then don't go to DO schools at all. If you do, you will regret it.

I want to get into MD schools 'cuz I think they are simply better. But if I can't get into a MD school, I will fall back to a DO school. I really don't mind dancing around the question "Are you a real doctor?"

As long as you have a Dr. in front of your name, patients don't care. I hear that the source of the DO flack is mainly from older MDs, and that it is slowly changing.

 

[Beau Geste]

As long as you have a Dr. in front of your name, patients don't care. I hear that the source of the DO flack is mainly from older MDs, and that it is slowly changing.

And neurotic pre-meds apparently 🙄

There are some residencies that still subscribe to the good 'ol boy MD network, but there are DO-only residencies available as well.

By the time we graduate, 4.5 years down the road, things will hopefully have gotten better, not worse.

Chill, people.

 

[yacom1118]

Check out wiki's Osteopathic vs. Allopathic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_allopathic

Although it seems to be written by DO representives but stats are stats.

 

[Faze2]

Sorry if I'm being repetitive; I did a search but it keeps freezing on me

It's not that I didn't want to continue with DO; it's just that I didn't know it would be impossible to gain entry into certain specialties. I heard it was hard before but my doc basically told me "forget about ophomology, anesthesia, derm"
I may end up wanting to be a family practice doc, but I also want a shot at specialties if I fall in love with one. I don't want to kick myself during my 3rd and 4th year knowing I want to do something, and I may not get it due to my degree...

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

 

[Beau Geste]

Please try to remember that wiki is not the best source for information when making life decisions.

 

[igcgnerd]

I counted 99, although these are the ones approved by the American Osteopathic College of Dermatology.

Regardless, there are approximately 1,000 MD dermatology spots, so given that DO's make up 17% of current domestic medical school graduates, one is at a statistical disadvantage as a DO.

Also consider that in 2007, over 50% of graduating osteopaths entered the allopathic match, with 68.8% matching. The match rate for senior allopathic students was 93.4%.

I understand that the burgeoning DOs here are exicted about their future careers and opportunities, but it's sobering to realize that the AOA has been allowing new schools to open without increasing residency positions to accomodate graduates. Digest this for a moment:

Did any one also consider that the 68.8% match rate includes those people who might have applied to the AOA match and successfully matched and therefore have to withdraw from acgme programs, meaning they would show up in your data as unmatched.

 

[yacom1118]

Please try to remember that wiki is not the best source for information when making life decisions.

I'd say that when making life decisions you need as much information as possible.

 

[Beau Geste]

I'd say that when making life decisions you need as much information as possible.

I wouldn't cite wiki as a research source, and I definitely wouldn't use info from there to make life decisions.

Unless I didn't want to be taken seriously.

 

[yacom1118]

I wouldn't cite wiki as a research source, and I definitely wouldn't use info from there to make life decisions.

Unless I didn't want to be taken seriously.

I partly agree with you in that I personally will not use wiki as the ONLY source to make a life decision. But wiki certainly does not fail to be a starting point to learn more about a certain subject.

I found the following NRMP report from that wiki page and I believe this should also be helpful to the OP. The wiki author used this report as his 23rd reference.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[gasapple]

Giving up a med school acceptance to do an SMP would be the most ******ed thing you could possibly do.

I'm going to have to agree with everything that TexasTri has expounded in this thread. In addition, I've talked to a number of veteran allo admissions deans who've explicitly stated that SMPs are not valued as much as a SLIGHT improvement on the MCAT; take it for what it is.

 

[cliquesh]

When you say D.O’s do not do so well in Allo-matches, are D.O applicants credentials(grades & test scores) equivalent to the average M.D. applying for the same position, and, therefore, D.O’s are being discriminated by their degree/education? Or are D.O’s not matching as well because of their lower test scores? I’d image that the average D.O would score lower than the average MD on standardized exams, since the requirements to get into a DO program are lower when compared to MD.

 

[gasapple]

I'd image that the average D.O would score lower than the average MD on standardized exams, since the requirements to get into a DO program are lower when compared to MD.

That logic is seriously flawed. I'm going DO (more than likely) and I did well on the new MCAT but my undergrad GPA (many years ago) is average. My grad GPA is very good. I'm saying I'll go to bat with anyone on a standardized exam. There are many more requirements to gain entrance to med school aside from the MCAT as you know, there are ECs, advanced degrees, GPAs, research, and publications. I don't think it'd be fair to make a generalized assumption such as the one you pose here based on the entire formula. I guess it makes sense since we can all be so pre-occupied with the MCAT since it's all-consuming. Some future DOs and MDs have lower undergrad GPAs but do well on the MCAT and vice versa. With regard to the match, many of these same factors work into that setup, too. The difference at the match level (for one) is the varying boards and the option for DOs to pursue and compete in either match by choice.

I'm just thankful I have DO and MD friends who spend time together so I've been able to witness the rapport firsthand. None of them think they are better than the next for any reason whatsoever. They each have their own niche and get along famously. They all worked hard to achieve, there's no doubt in my mind about that. IMHO, the occasional divisiveness here on SDN with pre-meds is all a matter of self-esteem - or lack thereof. I suggest we move on - it's all competitive at the match level but I think these standardized generalizations don't really apply across the board, or even most of the time.

 

[cliquesh]

That logic is seriously flawed. I'm going DO (more than likely) and I smoked the new MCAT but my undergrad GPA (many years ago) is hovering at a 3.0. My grad GPA is greater than a 3.5. I'll go to bat with anyone on a standardized exam. There are many more requirements to gain entrance to med school aside from the MCAT - ECs, advanced degrees, GPAs, research, publications. I don't think it'd be fair to make generalized statements such as the one you pose here based on the entire formula.

How is it flawed? MD students, on average, are probably better students than DO, for whatever reason. But this has nothing to do with my question. I was just asking if DO with equivlent stats are getting denied positions primiarly because of their degrees. If this is not the case, and DO's are getting rejected because of their sub-par stats, then I might try a DO route because I think i can pull a respectiable Step1/2 or COMPLEX score.

 

[lacesoutdan]

When you say D.O’s do not do so well in Allo-matches, are D.O applicants credentials(grades & test scores) equivalent to the average M.D. applying for the same position, and, therefore, D.O’s are being discriminated by their degree/education? Or are D.O’s not matching as well because of their lower test scores? I’d image that the average D.O would score lower than the average MD on standardized exams, since the requirements to get into a DO program are lower when compared to MD.

That logic is seriously flawed. I'm going DO (more than likely) and I smoked the new MCAT but my undergrad GPA (many years ago) is hovering at a 3.0. My grad GPA is greater than a 3.5. I'll go to bat with anyone on a standardized exam. There are many more requirements to gain entrance to med school aside from the MCAT - ECs, advanced degrees, GPAs, research, publications. I don't think it'd be fair to make generalized statements such as the one you pose here based on the entire formula.

The average DO student does score lower than the average MD student on the USMLE. In 2005, 93% of US/Canadian MD students passed the Step 1 on the first try compared to 70% of DO students and 67% of FMG students. However, it may be that the DO students who did well on the USMLE are the ones who apply for allopathic residencies. Therefore that specific group of DO students might not necessarily have lower scores as a whole.