would you guys recommend taking any ms1/ms2 topics in college?

[ronnicus]

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So I'm planning out my junior and senior years and I have a good chunk of interesting classes. I also have the option of taking a few courses like embryology, neurobiology, microbiology, etc. if i forgo a couple ecology classes. What classes benefited you guys the most in med school? Which ones have the highest degree of overlap or aren't taught very well/in-depth at med school?

 

[swoopyswoop]

micro could be helpful. my friends who had taken micro in undergrad had a little bit less of a hard time.

 

[ronnicus]

micro could be helpful. my friends who had taken micro in undergrad had a little bit less of a hard time.

is it really? I was actually thinking of dropping micro from my schedule because I've heard its a lot of memorization and very little overlap with med school micro

 

[swoopyswoop]

people who took anatomy also had a slightly easier time. that said, most people have no overlap and do fine. take whatever you want.

 

[ronnicus]

people who took anatomy also had a slightly easier time. that said, most people have no overlap and do fine. take whatever you want.

I have to take some of these classes for my major anyway so I want to pick classes that will help me the most in med school. As far as interest go, I find them all the same level of meh

 

[Daodejing]

classes that benefited me the most for med school were the ones that gave me the highest GPA. srs.

 

[ronnicus]

classes that benefited me the most for med school were the ones that gave me the highest GPA. srs.

You didn't feel like classes like biochem or cell bio benefited you very much at all?

 

[JJMrK]

Moving to Pre-Allo.

 

[Ismet]

Neuroscience or neuroanatomy, if your school offers it. A lot of information is covered in neuro in med school, and if you can get some of the physiology basics down, you'll have a better basis for learning the rest of it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Better idea would be to use your college to take something you won't take again in med school. Nobody gets that much bang for the buck retaking these courses -- it not going to help you as much as some who wasted their time taking these would like you to believe. You are far better off taking a Spanish or business course -- something you might actually need.

 

[ZezKaiEll]

is it really? I was actually thinking of dropping micro from my schedule because I've heard its a lot of memorization and very little overlap with med school micro

I have heard the same, but my guess is it really depends on the way in which the micro course is being taught at the undergrad level. Some colleges teach micro more as a nature study of different bugs, while others treat it more like the molecular science that it is, others still do a survey of all existing micro related topics including biotech applications of micro, organism diversity, med micro etc. I think it is likely that micro at the undergrad level, even if medically related would be a memory regurgitation exercise involving many different organisms which is unlikely to stay with you too far after the course is complete. The conceptual aspect of micro involves a lot of cell bio/genetics as well as those aspects unique to micro so I'm not convinced it would be high yield if better options exist.

This of course, is all just the opinion of a pre-med based on what I have heard.

 

[Daodejing]

You didn't feel like classes like biochem or cell bio benefited you very much at all?

No, and I took both in UG and did well. Med school goes at a much more frenetic pace and has a greater clinical slant than UG, and at least for me, much of the material was relearning rather than reviewing from UG. Don't get me wrong - some of the material was familiar, but I was by no means comfortable going in cold from UG. It is usually enough to perform well in med school by focusing on class lectures and supplementing the remaining gaps you have with boards resources. In other words, I have not once touched my biochem/cell bio material from UG and am doing fine.

 

[ronnicus]

Neuroscience or neuroanatomy, if your school offers it. A lot of information is covered in neuro in med school, and if you can get some of the physiology basics down, you'll have a better basis for learning the rest of it.

Yeah I've heard that neuro is one of the hardest blocks in MS1 but strangely enough no one seems to recommend taking courses for it in undergrad. They always say to take cell bio or anatomy or immuno. My university offers a 3- quarter series starting with nervous system cellular organization and biophysics to signalling and transduction to developmental neurobiology. Would it be worth taking all three?

 

[OCDEMS]

I think the only classes where there was a strong correlation with curriculum and grade achieved was Anatomy and Biochemistry. Microbiology is +/-, depending on how your school's curriculum is set up. Some students attended schools with nursing programs and it seemed that their microbiology courses were similar in structure to medical school, less as much information and the detail and knowledge required.

Immunology was another course where students said undergraduate work helped; a few students in my immediate group actually used the identical textbook and were able to reference undergraduate notes. The problem? We covered almost all of their undergraduate immunology course in two weeks, maybe less. Plenty of us did fine in that part of the course without an extensive background knowledge.

Of note about above, courses in medical school can be odd in that they will cover more or less of undergraduate subjects. Among my peers, almost all of us came to medical school with different majors and each of us had strengths, depending on background and the courses we decided to take before medical school. It was often that we'd be surprised by how fast medical school seemingly covered topics that undergraduate professors would seem to drone on about forever in a hope that the concept would be better understood. Sometimes things were explored in a more in-depth fashion in undergrad, but the overall conceptual understanding was still conveyed in medical school, i.e. relevant information. Similarly, some things were covered in tremendously more detail than was covered in undergrad. It really depends on the course. What makes medical school difficult is that you're learning many of the same concepts (and many new ones), often with additional information, at breakneck speed. You're expected to have the ability to quickly assimilate information.

 

[ronnicus]

I think the only classes where there was a strong correlation with curriculum and grade achieved was Anatomy and Biochemistry. Microbiology is +/-, depending on how your school's curriculum is set up. Some students attended schools with nursing programs and it seemed that their microbiology courses were similar in structure to medical school, less as much information and the detail and knowledge required.

Immunology was another course where students said undergraduate work helped; a few students in my immediate group actually used the identical textbook and were able to reference undergraduate notes. The problem? We covered almost all of their undergraduate immunology course in two weeks, maybe less. Plenty of us did fine in that part of the course without an extensive background knowledge.

Of note about above, courses in medical school can be odd in that they will cover more or less of undergraduate subjects. Among my peers, almost all of us came to medical school with different majors and each of us had strengths, depending on background and the courses we decided to take before medical school. It was often that we'd be surprised by how fast medical school seemingly covered topics that undergraduate professors would seem to drone on about forever in a hope that the concept would be better understood. Sometimes things were explored in a more in-depth fashion in undergrad, but the overall conceptual understanding was still conveyed in medical school, i.e. relevant information. Similarly, some things were covered in tremendously more detail than was covered in undergrad. It really depends on the course. What makes medical school difficult is that you're learning many of the same concepts (and many new ones), often with additional information, at breakneck speed. You're expected to have the ability to quickly assimilate information.

So you're saying take as much biochem as you can because it directly translates to medical school biochem?

 

[Law2Doc]

I have heard the same, but my guess is it really depends on the way in which the micro course is being taught at the undergrad level. Some colleges teach micro more as a nature study of different bugs, while others treat it more like the molecular science that it is, others still do a survey of all existing micro related topics including biotech applications of micro, organism diversity, med micro etc. I think it is likely that micro at the undergrad level, even if medically related would be a memory regurgitation exercise involving many different organisms which is unlikely to stay with you too far after the course is complete. The conceptual aspect of micro involves a lot of cell bio/genetics as well as those aspects unique to micro so I'm not convinced it would be high yield if better options exist.

This of course, is all just the opinion of a pre-med based on what I have heard.

At most med schools micro is arguably the easiest class -- you memorize the "ridiculously simple" book and you are most of the way there. Don't waste college credits to spend three months taking a class that you will surpass in the first two lectures of a Second year med school block. Trying to get a Leg up on classes like this is a lot like playing pee wee football to try to be ready for an NFL try out. The subject matter is arguably the same but the preparation is pretty much a waste of your time. Med schools teach you all you need to know and then some. Most intentionally don't make courses like micro prereqs because you are sometimes better off not learning things "wrong" at the college level.

 

[Law2Doc]

So you're saying take as much biochem as you can because it directly translates to medical school biochem?

No way. If it gives you any sort of edge, it's incredibly short lived. I wouldn't touch more than the semester that counts as a prereq at some places, unless you for some reason love it.

 

[OCDEMS]

No way. If it gives you any sort of edge, it's incredibly short lived. I wouldn't touch more than the semester that counts as a prereq at some places, unless you for some reason love it.

A lot of what Law2Doc says above applies to almost every class. Any advantage that anyone had from undergraduate work evaporated very quickly. For instance, I knew two students who had done graduate work in two med school-related subjects and still found the curriculum to be somewhat challenging. Medical school is a lot of recall and, as time goes on, increasingly about pattern recognition and fact regurgitation. The trick is to learn each subject well enough so that it can be recalled later, particularly during boards. I know people use the fire hose analogy all of the time, but it continues to exist in the vernacular because it is such a good analogy. Much of the material isn't prima facie difficult and, in my opinion, a lot of the traditional biology coursework is probably in excess of what you need to be competent with the material. It's the overwhelming volume and speed at which the material is presented that becomes challenging to most people. To do well in medical school you probably need the following:

1) Broad exposure to the sciences, if only to appreciate the scientific process and large concepts like the atom, evolution, and that when things hit other things, energy is transferred. I'm only half joking. It's more complicated than this, but it won't be like pushing electrons in O-Chem. You have to remember that, when you enter medical school, you probably have more scientific exposure than the vast majority of people.

2) Solid, but not extensive, background in biology. Lots of people did perfectly fine without having taken semester upon semester of genetics and biochemistry, although these things are helpful.

 

[Law2Doc]

I actually saw that a lot of people who came into med school thinking they already had a basic handle on a subject didn't push themselves as hard at the beginning, and had more difficulty ramping up to full speed when we got to new information one or two blocks later. You want to come into this race with the gas pedal to the floor from day one. It's much better to struggle the most on the first test than the second or third because the first year of med school is less about the material and more about learning how to learn massive amounts of material in a short time frame. Its the process that matters, not the material that year. Most of the first year stuff is foundation you need before second year. (its part of the reason first year mterial is very low yield on Step 1). So trying to lighten the load just delays some of the inevitable in an unfavorable way. The guy who struggles from day one and changes things up several times over the course of the first year, trying to figure out the best approach is several iterations ahead of the guy who eases into things the first few weeks because he took a ton of upper level college courses. the latter guy might win the battle but lose the war.

 

[listener23]

As a pre med reading through you guys post, i just find it hard to believe taking upper level bio courses in UG is next to worthless when it comes to medschool. But i guess i'll find out one day

 

[Law2Doc]

As a pre med reading through you guys post, i just find it hard to believe taking upper level bio courses in UG is next to worthless when it comes to medschool. But i guess i'll find out one day

I didn't say it's "next to worthless". I said it's worthless. Each time you move ahead in education, the jump is bigger. College was a very different game than high school. Med school is exponentially more foreign than college. You are trying to look at it as An extension of college and it isn't. You aren't going to get a head start in a useful way because you are still playing a different game at a different speed. The best thing you can do is appreciate that you don't know much about what will and won't be useful. Given that backdrop, trying to prepare yourself tends to be spinning your wheels.

As I tried to point out in my prior post, getting a jump on the material kind of misses the point of the first year of med school. You are ten times better off in the first year of med school being average but really learning how to study than doing better then average on a couple of tests early on because you heard some of the material before. The person struggling with the material but really learning how to study because of it tends to have the edge. (you probably think you know how to study, but will realize in med school when the firehouse starts pouring that you don't). Your grades in first year just don't matter as much as you think. You pass everything but put yourself in a good position to do well in year 2 and step 1, you are far far better off than the guy who peaks in the first block. He may have on the battle, but you won the war. that's why I'm saying the game is different. The "rules" you are playing under now are college rules. They don't translate the way you think.

 

[listener23]

I didn't say it's "next to worthless". I said it's worthless. Each time you move ahead in education, the jump is bigger. College was a very different game than high school. Med school is exponentially more foreign than college. You are trying to look at it as An extension of college and it isn't. You aren't going to get a head start in a useful way because you are still playing a different game at a different speed. The best thing you can do is appreciate that you don't know much about what will and won't be useful. Given that backdrop, trying to prepare yourself tends to be spinning your wheels.

As I tried to point out in my prior post, getting a jump on the material kind of misses the point of the first year of med school. You are ten times better off in the first year of med school being average but really learning how to study than doing better then average on a couple of tests early on because you heard some of the material before. The person struggling with the material but really learning how to study because of it tends to have the edge. (you probably think you know how to study, but will realize in med school when the firehouse starts pouring that you don't). Your grades in first year just don't matter as much as you think. You pass everything but put yourself in a good position to do well in year 2 and step 1, you are far far better off than the guy who peaks in the first block. He may have on the battle, but you won the war. that's why I'm saying the game is different. The "rules" you are playing under now are college rules. They don't
translate the way you think.

Im still have trouble visualizing the large amount of material. How long is one class?

 

[Microglia]

Im still have trouble visualizing the large amount of material. How long is one class?

Depends on the sequence and type of curriculum, and varies highly by school. For example, a sequence like renal physiology could be 2 weeks at one school and 4 at another.

Essentially, we had about 200 pages per week, every week to memorize, where each page was 4 slides. The amount of info on each slide varied by teacher and sequence too. Sometimes it was easy, and sometimes it was just crazy and you went into the quiz just hoping you memorized the points that were on the test.

 

[listener23]

Depends on the sequence and type of curriculum, and varies highly by school. For example, a sequence like renal physiology could be 2 weeks at one school and 4 at another.

Essentially, we had about 200 pages per week, every week to memorize, where each page was 4 slides. The amount of info on each slide varied by teacher and sequence too. Sometimes it was easy, and sometimes it was just crazy and you went into the quiz just hoping you memorized the points that were on the test.

so medical school is like taking the mcat every 2 weeks?

 

[medicalmnt]

does taking classes that are required in med school like histo/A&P/immunology/etc good to take in UG to show that I can handle the material? (even if I get a B+ or something)

Would it be a better to take "easier" courses to get the highest GPA possible when I apply then take these classes in the spring of senior year or something?
I'm hearing things from both sides. would really like an expert-amateur sdn advice on this. ty

 

[Doctor Strange]

Pharmacology.

 

[OCDEMS]

so medical school is like taking the mcat every 2 weeks?

No, not really. The MCAT is a tremendous amount of information across a variety of disparate disciplines in the basic sciences. Medical school classes tend to be at least mildly related, e.g. you may be taking anatomy and embryology (or as one class, depending on your school) at the same time but they're obviously related and the period of time in which you're expected to have 100% mastery of the material is finite (until the test occurs and then again, to a lesser extent, come boards). Medical school is different in that, while hard, it's really about the volume of material that you cover.

I gave the example earlier of immunology and how we covered the content of the course in like 1.5 weeks. The students who used the same textbook in undergrad, over an entire semester, said we covered 80-90% of the material in that 1.5 weeks, while simultaneously taking 3 other courses. Think about it. It's also important to note that, unlike many undergraduate courses, your professors will be making early clinical correlates so that you're not dumbfounded when you see it again later.

Pharmacology.

Yes. The highest performers at my school, when it came to pharmacology, were people with previous exposure or who had previous healthcare experience. A lot of students have problems assimilating generic drug names, associating them with a mechanism of action, and then applying it to clinical scenarios. It just tends to be a subject people have problems with. Regardless, this is a subject you should take seriously because it constantly reappears on exams.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Yes. The highest performers at my school, when it came to pharmacology, were people with previous exposure or who had previous healthcare experience. A lot of students have problems assimilating generic drug names, associating them with a mechanism of action, and then applying it to clinical scenarios. It just tends to be a subject people have problems with. Regardless, this is a subject you should take seriously because it constantly reappears on exams.

Yup. I majored in pharmacology, and it has proven invaluable.

 

[OCDEMS]

Yup. I majored in pharmacology, and it has proven invaluable.

I bolded something Doctor Strange said above and that many people tend to ignore. Having a previous clinical background, or having majored in something in undergraduate that at least samples clinical medicine, is truly invaluable.

 

[Microglia]

so medical school is like taking the mcat every 2 weeks?

Not exactly- see above. But imagine if you did take the MCAT every 2 weeks. It would be less scary each time and you would get used to it. Most schools do a pretty good job of easing you into it. I was terrified of it haha but just finished first year and it was very doable with a long distance relationship and even a part time job.

 

[ronnicus]

Yup. I majored in pharmacology, and it has proven invaluable.

Isn't it just a bunch of memorization?

 

[Doctor Strange]

Isn't it just a bunch of memorization?

Superficially, yes. Things like knowing the trade and generic names for drugs are pretty much just memorization. Pharmacology is much more than just knowing drug names, though. It is more concerned with mechanisms of action, which are shared by drugs belonging to the same drug class (e.g., statins inhibit HMG CoA reductase). Newer generation drugs will be coming out all the time, and many of the drugs you learn about in medical school will be obsolete by the time you actually start practicing medicine. MOAs, however, are longer lasting and will always underlay the basis of any pharmacotherapy. Being able to understand mechanisms of action will empower you to be able to make general pharmacotherapeutic recommendations for a patient, in addition to allowing you to predict the effects of a drug, even if you've had limited experience with it.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

Isn't it just a bunch of memorization?

If you really want to get to it, everything in medical school is just a bunch of memorization. Pharmacology has lots of applications to physiology, biochemistry and other fields that as you study it, helps you learn those as well. I can say I've had lots of "a-ha" moments when studying pharm with physiology concepts and pathways coming together for me.

Also, as OCDEMS said - drug names are a pain in the ass to learn.

 

[ronnicus]

If you really want to get to it, everything in medical school is just a bunch of memorization. Pharmacology has lots of applications to physiology, biochemistry and other fields that as you study it, helps you learn those as well. I can say I've had lots of "a-ha" moments when studying pharm with physiology concepts and pathways coming together for me.

Also, as OCDEMS said - drug names are a pain in the ass to learn.

so you're saying pharmacology is the highest yield class one can take in undergrad that would prepare for med school

 

[kavorca]

I think biochem relates pretty directly depending on how good your UG class or how bad you medical school class is. Some of the upper level bios only gave me a moment's "mmhmm" with a head nod when it would come up peripherally. I didn't take any pharm or neuro in college so I am not sure about that. Anatomy is anatomy, can't hurt. Just make sure you get As.

 

[Doctor Strange]

so you're saying pharmacology is the highest yield class one can take in undergrad that would prepare for med school

I mean, I guess. It's tricky, though, because pharmacology at most schools will have required you to take a specific sequence of courses (e.g., physiology, medicinal chemistry, etc.) as pre-requisites.