Would you perform non-necessary circumcisions?

[Wolfman89]

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Dude. Even my team beat your team and my team is freakin bottom feeder. 😛

I was stoked tho. Go Lobe's. 👍

Because we are schizo like that. We play to every team's level. Hence we beat BYwho and come within 10 against SDSU but lose to y'all in your place and lose to CSU, Utah, and UNLV.

Still too bad there was no one for Alford to call an a**hole this year.

And don't get me started on our "football" team lol

 

[smq123]

Is this not the same for every procedure in life though (in general, risk increases with age)?

No, not always.

In babies, some procedures are postponed (ex: cardiac catheter ablations) until the child is a little bit older. Especially because the anatomy keeps changing so frequently.

I'm going to be honest. The only reason I am against them is because of my SO. He did not at enjoy his expereince's during resdiency and has been vocal about his positions against it. Granted he did his residency in the 90's, perhaps things (the procedure) has changed? And though I aruged this wasnt about the logistics of the procedure itself, that's where his disdain started....the other arguments against it came later..

So you're arguing against a procedure that you don't know anything about....haven't really done your own research....and just dislike it as a knee jerk reaction because your boyfriend doesn't.

That's not a very intelligent reason to decide that circ's are bad. And I would bet that you're old enough to think for yourself by now....

 

[slatermd]

 

[O2Doc]

Ok, so I did read the entire thread, but there are way too many responses I wanted to quote. I'll just touch on a few points....

For whoever was talking about circs being "retrospective" in terms of medical evidence, this is true, but I don't understand the argument. There are many healthy practices performed today that had been done for years before a medical benefit was discovered. I don't think you should be able to discount circs because the discovered health benefits (however significant or insignificant they may be) came later.

I mentioned that the evidence was retrospective, in response to a poster who said that there's (now) positive medical evidence for circumcisions, but not for hoodectomies, so therefore infant circs are ok but infant hoodectomies are not (adult hoodectomies are performed in the US btw, as a cosmetic procedure, and presumably many women who choose this procedure are happy with it).

I mentioned the retrospective nature of the pro-circ studies to show that 1. medical evidence had nothing to do with allowing circs, so logically it should have nothing to do with allowing/not allowing hoodectomies; and
2. that as of now there simply is no evidence re: hoodectomies performed in a safe proper medical setting, and for all we know some time in the future, were the procedure allowed, there could be positive findings.

 

[Hoody]

No, not always.

why can't an adult get a penis block?

So you're arguing against a procedure that you don't know anything about....haven't really done your own research....and just dislike it as a knee jerk reaction because your boyfriend doesn't.

That's not a very intelligent reason to decide that circ's are bad. And I would bet that you're old enough to think for yourself by now....

I didn't say I didn't know anything about it. I said thats how I got started on disliking them. 🙄

Later on, I took a zoology HIV/AIDS course and the professor brought up circumcision and HIV/AIDS. He said there was NO conclusive evidence that backed this theory and in some cases its been shown to INCREASE the risk marginally. I haven't brought this up because I don't want to go fishing around for a source. In just saying, its not like I haven't thought about this topic before.

 

[deleted191570]

I mentioned the retrospective nature of the pro-circ studies to show that 1. medical evidence had nothing to do with allowing circs, so logically it should have nothing to do with allowing/not allowing hoodectomies; and
2. that as of now there simply is no evidence re: hoodectomies performed in a safe proper medical setting, and for all we know some time in the future, were the procedure allowed, there could be positive findings.

I feel like you're taking the conversation deeper into the area of philosophy of medicine.

Is that really wise for an already vexing thread in a pre-medical forum? lol

 

[Wolfman89]

why can't an adult get a penis block?

I didn't say I didn't know anything about it. I said thats how I got started on disliking them. 🙄

One counterargument I would have is that while the procedure itself would not be more painful an adult (assuming an adult can get a penis block) the recovery would be, unless there was a way to prevent the patient from getting an erection until healing was complete. If not the patient would be in for some real bad pain.

 

[deleted191570]

Later on, I took a zoology HIV/AIDS course and the professor brought up circumcision and HIV/AIDS. He said there was NO conclusive evidence that backed this theory and in some cases its been shown to INCREASE the risk marginally. I haven't brought this up because I don't want to go fishing around for a source. In just saying, its not like I haven't thought about this topic before.

When is evidence (especially in medicine) ever conclusive of anything? It's either more reliable or less reliable...

And you're talking about a zoology professor???

 

[Perrotfish]

You're SO isn't the first and won't be the last. I know that I will not like doing circs during residency (aside...you're a little strange if you like doing them).

I won't try to get out of it...it's something like respecting the patient's autonomy. You can always explain pros and cons and hope the parents consider them. Whether they choose for or against, hopefully they are making an informed decision and it's not just the dad going "I'm circumcised so all my sons have to do it to. GET'ER DONE!!!"

BTW if you don't have a strong objection to circs, let alone if you're pro circ, I think you're going to grow to love them. Every one that you do is about $150 in cash that goes right into your pocket on top of your base pay. This is the one time in medicine that your patients leave a tip (pun intended).

 

[Wolfman89]

BTW if you don't have a strong objection to circs, let alone if you're pro circ, I think you're going to grow to love them. Every one that you do is about $150 in cash that goes right into your pocket on top of your base pay. This is the one time in medicine that your patients leave a tip (pun intended).

Randomoid question, do you count the money you get from doing circs as tips when you do your taxes?

 

[O2Doc]

So you're arguing against a procedure that you don't know anything about....haven't really done your own research....and just dislike it as a knee jerk reaction because your boyfriend doesn't.

That's not a very intelligent reason to decide that circ's are bad. And I would bet that you're old enough to think for yourself by now....

Haha, but that's just like women who say that they let the father of the child decide whether the baby should be circ'd because...he's a guy, so clearly he must know. Even in this thread there has been at least one poster who subscribed to this kind of "not very intelligent" reasoning on the basis that the father "understands what it's like to be male", except it was pro-circ (well, the father was pro-circ).

It's not at all uncommon, when circ discussions come up, to hear women say the choice should be with the father. Because penises, you know...only guys can understand them. Clearly in those cases medical studies hold no weight at all as I assume mothers would be able to read those as well as fathers, but mothers just don't understand the wang on a deeper level.

So if women can be pro-circ because their male partners are, why can't they be anti-circ for the same reason (or: "StudyShy: as unable to think for herself as Hoody")?

 

[Torr]

BTW if you don't have a strong objection to circs, let alone if you're pro circ, I think you're going to grow to love them. Every one that you do is about $150 in cash that goes right into your pocket on top of your base pay. This is the one time in medicine that your patients leave a tip (pun intended).

Lol. Just realized very few jokes have been made in this thread so far. Aww SDN is growing up. So proud.

 

[smq123]

why can't an adult get a penis block?

They can, although I'm sure that whether or not they should depends on the individual patient.

But still, like I said earlier, you still have to suture the edge of the remaining foreskin to the penis, which you don't have to do in newborns.

 

[Perrotfish]

Randomoid question, do you count the money you get from doing circs as tips when you do your taxes?

No, you're charging for a service. It's not a gratuity. But that wouldn't have worked with my amazing pun.

 

[deleted191570]

BTW if you don't have a strong objection to circs, let alone if you're pro circ, I think you're going to grow to love them. Every one that you do is about $150 in cash that goes right into your pocket on top of your base pay. This is the one time in medicine that your patients leave a tip (pun intended).

Most useful thing I've learned from reading this entire thread. 👍

 

[smq123]

Haha, but that's just like women who say that they let the father of the child decide whether the baby should be circ'd because...he's a guy, so clearly he must know. Even in this thread there has been at least one poster who subscribed to this kind of "not very intelligent" reasoning on the basis that the father "understands what it's like to be male", except it was pro-circ (well, the father was pro-circ).

It's not at all uncommon, when circ discussions come up, to hear women say the choice should be with the father. Because penises, you know...only guys can understand them. Clearly in those cases medical studies hold no weight at all as I assume mothers would be able to read those as well as fathers, but mothers just don't understand the wang on a deeper level.

So if women can be pro-circ because their male partners are, why can't they be anti-circ for the same reason (or: "StudyShy: as unable to think for herself as Hoody")?

That's not what I meant.

What I meant is - why be biased against circ's because your boyfriend says that they're bad? Shouldn't you arrive at that conclusion on your own, after doing a bit of reading on it?

That's like a guy saying, "I'm against abortion because my girlfriend says that they're bad for women." Well, do your own research and your own thinking and come up with that.

And the old argument of "Well, a man's opinion on circumcision is more valid than a woman's because he knows what it's like" is just as stupid as saying "A woman's opinion on abortion is more valid than a man's because he'll never know what getting pregnant is like." That's like saying that white people should never have an opinion on racial profiling, that healthy people shouldn't have a say in the healthcare insurance argument, etc. By saying that a man's opinion on circumcision carries more weight, you're acknowledging that, really, it's all an emotional argument.

 

[Hoody]

What I meant is - why be biased against circ's because your boyfriend says that they're bad? Shouldn't you arrive at that conclusion on your own, after doing a bit of reading on it?

And what I meant is that I'd never thought about it before he brought it up. Since he brought it up, I have done my own research and I have also come to the conclusion that I think routine circumcisions are silly.

He could change his mind tomorrow and I would still think they are silly.

 

[startswithb]

I heard the sex is better for the female when the male is uncumcised, but this is not from personal experience. lol

So that explains it!

Boyfriend and I watching some random TV or documentary...actually I think it was that movie with Jack Black and that guy from Superbad.

Me: I've never been with an uncircumcised man.
BF: ...
Me: What?
BF: I'm uncircumcised.
Me: Really? Let me see...Oh, hmm. Well I guess I have, then.

True story.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

No, I would not. I don't believe in the benefits of circumcision, nor do I agree with the procedure itself (i.e. no analgesic). To me, it makes absolutely no sense to cut off a part of a newborn's genitals, no matter how many studies you can cite showing reduced transmission/infection of or by blah blah.

I have seen and done a couple circ's as a med student. What would make you think they do it with out analgesic? Bupivicaine was used for all the ones I saw, along with the all important sugar water. (Amazing how you can calm a baby with one drop of this stuff at a time)

Being that I don't want to be a surgeon.. no ... Actually a slightly off topic question... what type of doctor preforms circumcisions? Pediatric surgeons? Urologists? Or just straight up pediatricians?

When I was on the newborn service, it was done by Neonatologists, OB's, Ped's residents and medical students. It is a ridiculously safe and simple procedure to do

 

[Torr]

So that explains it!

Boyfriend and I watching some random TV or documentary...actually I think it was that movie with Jack Black and that guy from Superbad.

Me: I've never been with an uncircumcised man.
BF: ...
Me: What?
BF: I'm uncircumcised.
Me: Really? Let me see...Oh, hmm. Well I guess I have, then.

True story.

Please don't tell me you thought the movie "Year 1" was a documentary

 

[addo]

So that explains it!

Boyfriend and I watching some random TV or documentary...actually I think it was that movie with Jack Black and that guy from Superbad.

Me: I've never been with an uncircumcised man.
BF: ...
Me: What?
BF: I'm uncircumcised.
Me: Really? Let me see...Oh, hmm. Well I guess I have, then.

True story.

lol, doesnt even make a difference.

 

[Perrotfish]

Lol. Just realized very few jokes have been made in this thread so far. Aww SDN is growing up. So proud.

So a mohel retires after 40 years of service and decides that he wants something to remind him of his long career. So he goes to a local leather worker and says 'this may be a little wierd, but...' He goes on to explain that he's been saving all of the foreskins from all of his circumcisions and would like them made into a momento of his service. The leatherworker likes the challenge and agrees.

The next day he comes back and the leather worker hands him... a wallet.

The mohel is indignant "40 years of work and all you can make for me is a wallet?" he cries.

The leather worker replies "but it's not just any wallet. When you rub it, it turns into a suitcase!"

 

[addo]

So a mohel retires after 40 years of service and decides that he wants something to remind him of his long career. So he goes to a local leather worker and says 'this may be a little wierd, but...' He goes on to explain that he's been saving all of the foreskins from all of his circumcisions and would like them made into a momento of his service. The leatherworker likes the challenge and agrees.

The next day he comes back and the leather worker hands him... a wallet.

The mohel is indignant "40 years of work and all you can make for me is a wallet?" he cries.

The leather worker replies "but it's not just any wallet. When you rub it, it turns into a suitcase!"

👍
I was wondering when a mohel was going to be mentioned again in this thread.

 

[slatermd]

Step 1: Collect foreskins
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

 

[BDIX727]

I honestly feel that if there was a poll showing those that are circumsized/uncircumsized there would be a strong correlation to how the voting went in this thread.

This thread began with asking as a Physician would you feel comfortable performing a circumcision to something much different.

I've never heard of people calling a circumcision "mutilating genitalia" and other non sense, some of this **** scares me, I hope majority of SDNer's get weeded out... I don't want these people becoming Doctors.

 

[sugarcrash56]

I'm not circumcised and sure as hell wouldn't do it to my kids.

circumcision = decreased sensitivity = erectile dysfunction = sexual dissatisfaction in marriage = divorce = drugs = suicide

All this "decreased chances of getting x disease" is bull****. practice safe sex perhaps? figure out where your chick has been before you hit that? wear a condom? yes?

 

[smq123]

I'm not circumcised and sure as hell wouldn't do it to my kids.

circumcision = decreased sensitivity = erectile dysfunction = sexual dissatisfaction in marriage = divorce = drugs = suicide

Even if we assume that this flow of events happens as inexorably as you make it sound, JAMA has some interesting observations:

While some difficulties, such as experiencing pain during sex, were rare, Table 3 demonstrates that sexual dysfunction is a relatively common event for American men. Approximately 45% of both circumcised and uncircumcised men experience at least one of these dysfunctions in the year prior to the survey. In addition, the data suggest a slight tendency for such dysfunctions to plague uncircumcised men. When all age groups are considered, almost every dysfunction is slightly more common among men who have not been circumcised.

So, good news, circumcised men. You don't have to have that divorce lawyer [or that Viagra dealer] on speed dial. 🙄

circumcision = decreased sensitivity = erectile dysfunction = sexual dissatisfaction in marriage = divorce = drugs = suicide

If circumcision = decreased sensitivity, then wouldn't uncircumcised = increased sensitivity? And doesn't increased sensitivity = premature ejaculation? And that's no fun for anyone. 😉 😛

[This is ignoring the research that's been done which doesn't show that circumcision decreases penile sensitivity or sexual satisfaction.]

 

[Parts Unknown]

circumcision = decreased sensitivity

Great, just what I need, more sensitivity.

 

[sugarcrash56]

Great, just what I need, more sensitivity.

Just think of the fattest girl you know....

PS. i lol'd hard when i read that

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Great, just what I need, more sensitivity.

Hey-o!

 

[Suncrusher]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKIyFm0Pgfg[/youtube]

Later in the episode (s1e3 Diversity Hire), Archer and Lana are discussing suspicious things about Conway, whom they suspect to be a double agent:

Archer (about Conway): And he's uncircumcised.
Lana: (Pause.) Okay, glossing over how you know that--
Archer: Our penises touched.
Lana: I SAID GLOSSING! Isn't it kind of weird that he's Jewish and not circumcised?
Archer: Well I'm not Jewish but I am circum--
Lana: THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!
Archer: Oh Lana, I think we both know it works just fine.

 

[medicalmystery]

Circumcision is a matter that unquestionably requires personal consent. I wouldn't circumcise an infant but I would a consenting and willing adult.

 

[SoyRicoSuave]

Step 1: Collect foreskins
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

👍

 

[SFO-IST]

I'm appalled by the ignorance on this thread.

 

[halethsonofhama]

I skimmed.... and didn't see anyone address this issue (for the obvious reasons), but i"m gonna have to be the guy again to bring up God.

God doesn't command people to do anything for no reason.... most of his commandments have a scientific basis (Not eating pork, circumcision)- he just fails to mention the reasons in the Bible.

 

[tabascosauce]

I skimmed.... and didn't see anyone address this issue (for the obvious reasons), but i"m gonna have to be the guy again to bring up God.

God doesn't command people to do anything for no reason.... most of his commandments have a scientific basis (Not eating pork, circumcision)- he just fails to mention the reasons in the Bible.

hello my good friend,

my first instinct is to berate you, but i dont want to do that. im trying not to be cynical! so here we go:

Correct! he told noah to build an ark and fill it with 2 of every species. VERY SCIENTIFIC. he understood that u need a male and a female for procreation. SOOOOOOOO SCIENTIFIC. body mass alone...

 

[slatermd]

^This, is serious business.

 

[Mr Hippopotamus]

^^Why does every post start with "here is what I wrote"?

 

[O2Doc]

actually removal of the hood and the labia minor along with some labia major would be analogous.

Bit far there, Craigi. If you remove the minora you'd have to remove part of the male's urethral roof to be fair, and depending on how much majora you're removing you also have to snip off bits of his scrotum.

 

[Grom]

im pissed off at this thread and i don't even have an opinion on the subject

Agreed.

Pretty much all the arguments in this thread seem to rely on the audience already agreeing with position being supported.

 

[Sesom]

I am against it. I don't think parents should have the right to make the decision for physical modification without it being necessary(it's not). I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but the fore skin does have sexual function... it's not just there. A lot of people on this bored may have been circumcised as a baby but it was claimed to be necessity back then. Circumcision is going to be in the minority in our near future so it really is best not to mutilate your children's junk.

 

[Sesom]

correct the psyco cultural factors have been discussed in detail.

This article addresses the bias quite well:

http://knol.google.com/k/circumcision-and-human-behavior#

circumcision is sexual abuse, surgical rape, and a human rights violation period. I cant beleve we even have to debat this in 2011.

+1

 

[RogueUnicorn]

the lol to derp ratio is disappointingly low in this thread

 

[Danlee07]

it's the most one-sided op i've ever read, but in the system of America, it's up to the patients. And if they believe in God, then let it be...it's not for you to judge.

 

[Parts Unknown]

To confirm this, the National Health and Social Life Survey conducted at the University of Chicago, found:
"First, Circumcision status does not appear to lower the likelihood of contracting an STD. Rather, the opposite pattern holds. Circumcised men were slightly more likely to have had both a bacterial and a viral STD in their lifetime." [8]

Here is a fun game you can play with hyper-referenced megaposts like those by Mr. G. Pick a reference (like the one above) and read the subsequent letters to the editor regarding its findings.

Personally I'm sort of glad I'm not walking around with a little sack of shmeeg crusting up the tip of my willy, but of course I'm biased by my circum-stances.

 

[FlowRate]

I'll ask this question again, should parents be able to elect a double mastectomy for their new born girls for cultural/religious/social/potential-medical reasons?

You were doing pretty good up to this point.

Sad I'm joining the thread late. (didn't bother to read the other 3 pages, this was probably discussed)

Should we be able to remove the clitoris (clitoridectomy, or labiaplasty, or vaginoplasty etc.) of baby girls for cosmetic reasons? That's the most analagous question.

 

[Spin]

I hope that I never have to perform a circumcision for medical, religious, or aesthetic reason. I'd be terrified of botching it and destroying someone's chances of having orgasms for the rest of his life:

I am 24 years old and lost my entire glans penis, the head of my dick, in a botched circumcision. Basically I have a shaft but there's no head at the end. Unfortunately, I was left with my balls so I still have a sex drive, but it's nearly impossible for me to climax. ...

http://www.portlandmercury.com/columns/savage-love/Content?oid=32394

Yeah. No way I'd ever want to be responsible for that. (I'm not interested in procedural/surgical medicine in general, but I definitely want to avoid circumcision if possible.)

I don't agree that the procedure itself is harmful in most cases but the site I did click on had some valid points.

As far as the diseases prevented, I guess the issue is HIV risk goes down but other STD's seem to be more prevalent in men that had it done (I spent very little time checking the sources on that!). But, would you rather prevent HIV or Chlamydia anyway?

The argument about quality of sex was probably the most valid IMO. As the site said "most guys don't know what they're missing". Felt bad for the one guy who had it done later in life and really DID know what he was missing.

I read somewhere that the nerves are able to sort of re-map after babies are circumcised -- as in, the baby's brain never gets any stimulation from the foreskin since it's missing, but it gets stimulation from the surrounding tissue, so it redirects some signals so that the foreskin-area-of-the-brain gets stimulated when other areas of the penis are touched. If that's true, the only people who are really missing out sensation-wise are the ones who are circumcised when they're older, so it'd probably be better to circumcise your son without his consent rather than risk him wanting it later and losing a bunch of sensation. Once again, I don't know if that's true, but it's definitely something to look into.

 

[Geneticist]

Christ, give it a rest will ya?!

 

[CeruleanB]

it seems like hoody.......is adamant..............about keeping his hoody............







YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

This made me lol

 

[Geneticist]

absolutely not. 75% of you said you would commit surgical rape of children with out any hesitation in this thread.

Obviously ethics and detailed circumcision information are not required for you to know or for the parent's to know before permanently maiming their children with cosmetic amputations that are designed and intended to denude, desensitize, and immobilize another persons sexual organs.

I seriously doubt any of you had this information available in your text books, and i doubt even less that you will even be able to convey that information to parents.

No benefits are proven , but the harms and losses are.

OH LAWDY, LAWDY I SEE THE LIGHT! I SEE THE LIGHT AND IT IS BRIGHT! If you couldn't tell from my blatant sarcasm, you sound like a psychopath. You should be medicated. Haldol, anyone?