Would you support requiring a minimum age of 22 or at least one gap year before applying?

[efle]

For many students like yourself who have already had to deal with financing your education and living in apartments, etc., taking a gap year to live in the real world may not give that much benefit. But even if you worked full-time over the summers and part-time during the school year, chances are that those "jobs" are more like internships and not so much employment. One works at those positions with a known start date and a known end date - both you and your bosses know when you're going to leave and so things like job security rarely come up. Now, if you were working at one or two companies during that whole time as a full employee, then my answer would be different.

I worked in basic science labs, similar to what a lot of people end up doing in their gap. And my current clinic job was marketed to premeds here as a great gap year opportunity so it was always clear I was planning to only be here for the year. Probably why I've noticed so little difference. Maybe working for private pharma or some such gives a different kind of work and life experience.

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[aldol16]

I worked in basic science labs, similar to what a lot of people end up doing in their gap. And my current clinic job was marketed to premeds here as a great gap year opportunity so it was always clear I was planning to only be here for the year. Probably why I've noticed so little difference. Maybe working for private pharma or some such gives a different kind of work and life experience.

Exactly - what you're doing now likely "feels" like an extended internship and that's really what it is. You will definitely get meaningful data because you're spending a whole year there instead of only a few months like you would in an internship but besides that, that "job" is very similar to a long internship. When you're working for a company, you actually have to worry about your job security, promotions, (sometimes) inflexible vacation days, etc. For people who only take one year off, that sort of experience is hard to come by because they know they'll only be there for a year and so it's inherently temporary. But for somebody who will take an unknown amount of time off - 2, 3, 4, or more years - then those concerns become very real. After all, you must be able to feed yourself (and your family).

 

[Goro]

People who have had jobs don't ask questions like these, and their behavior isn't limited to things like these, either.

The reason they're asking is because they aren't sure what the rules are. When did asking questions become a bad thing? Just tell them what the rules are.

Not sure what the big issue is, to be honest.

 

[hungrybox]

People who have had jobs don't ask questions like these, and their behavior isn't limited to things like these, either.

I'm not doubting that what you're saying is true, but I just don't see why it's a problem. If I were asked that question I would tell them what times they can expect to be working and how many vacation days they have. And that would be that.

 

[Goro]

Re-read my post

I'm not doubting that what you're saying is true, but I just don't see why it's a problem. If I were asked that question I would tell them what times they can expect to be working and how many vacation days they have. And that would be that.

 

[hungrybox]

Re-read my post

Why?

 

[Mad Jack]

Foreign students start at 16-18 and DO just fine. Their age at graduation is as old as the average age of matriculation at US schools.

 

[Sardinia]

@aldol16 raises the issue about job security. Depending on which job you have, you will likely attend seminars or meet associates from other companies in several meetings. Chances are in some of these encounters that you will be able to use these opportunities to show your value or what type of work experience you have. This entire process is part of networking and enables you to have contact information for you to get connected into competitors or other contractors. Doing this in addition to being competent at your job, being able to attract new clients, and asking for favors at reasonable times should give you enough peace of mind that you shouldn't have to be afraid of potentially being fired. I always keep an updated resume and try to invest in a new skill set on a month to month basis in order to create independent growth for myself regardless of what happens at work. Someone could tell me I'm horrible at my job and I'm fired if I don't get them what they want next time, however if I know I did my best then I can take it constructively because my job isn't my sole investment.

I would strongly suggest that people look into realistic Plan B options if they are dissatisfied with their current situation, current pay, or other factors involving the work place. When I negotiate, my employers have understood that I only request a raise because a competitor is willing to pay for it. I'm doing them a favor by requesting a match price. That's how you create value for yourself and I don't think that is a skill set that a lot of medical schools would be directly interested in, however when you get used to selling yourself as a commodity it makes interviews much easier to facilitate.

The issue is that the job market can be a high friction place where you can be fired. At will employment means that employers can fire you at any time they feel you haven't kept up your commitment with them. However, you only have yourself to blame if you are in your 20s and you wake up in cold sweats because you are afraid of losing your job. Being in your 20s with any experience is highly desirable, even with one year of experience you should begin looking at how to branch out and increase your own capital. If you think that it gets easier when you're in your 30s, 40s, or 50s then you're naive. It's when you get older that you should be considered about vertical career promotion e.g. escalating your career within the same company. Ageism isn't so much an issue in medicine which is why many people look at it as a secondary career.

 

[Goro]

Have you taken the MCAT yet?

Why?

 

[hungrybox]

Have you taken the MCAT yet?

Yes. Why?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Have you taken the MCAT yet?

Yes. Why?

I'm going to head this off before it reaches its inevitable conclusion.

As for OP, I'm not really in favor of a mandatory gap year. I think a gap year is valuable for people who want to take them or need them for whatever reason, but for the 35% or so of applicants who go straight through, its just another hoop to jump through and may not confer any sort of value. I didn't take a gap year because I had nothing else I wanted to do before med school. I have no idea what I would have done if I was forced to take a gap year. I think that going straight from an academic environment into another academic environment. Helped my studying capacity and I think those skills may have atrophied had I done something like sit in a research lab for a year doing research that I didn't want to be doing. Just my 2c.

 

[kb1900]

@people saying that holding 2 part time jobs through college to support yourself financialyl doesn't constitute enough work experience to prepare for a full time job - this is frankly rediculous.

I can't even schedule a day off work for an interview without 5 weeks notice and need to find coverage before even thinking about committing to a day off. I don't know where these stories of new residents asking for time off come from, but they sound exaggerated and likely the minority. Outside of my first two summers in college I've had 1 single weeklong vacation and 30-50 hours/week of work outside of school.

Also nothing wrong with asking about professional expectations if you aren't aware - PDs would rather make the medical profession harder to get into and increase the already higher age of medical graduates just so you can AVOID setting ground rules or responding to dumb questions in your residency about vacation and holidays?? Where is the data to support this claim?? Literally everything I've seen shows that graduates of combined 6/7 year programs have no difference in residency performance from others.

This entire idea seems like an over reaction by someone who just feels younger kids are entitled rather than a sentiment fueled by sound logic/realizing the bigger picture about what is really needed to make a doctor.

/end rant

 

[Sardinia]

@Goro I trusted you. It turns out that you've just been abusing your power to select desirable students this entire time. I can never trust you with the young people ever again. I must distance you away from them and only allow you to interact with them through lengthy verbal discussions about the topics they dread the most. You must also give them undesirable examinations to make them aware that you are not their friend and in fact are only here as a professional.

 

[aldol16]

I'm not doubting that what you're saying is true, but I just don't see why it's a problem. If I were asked that question I would tell them what times they can expect to be working and how many vacation days they have. And that would be that.

In an actual job, that stuff is worked out beforehand with HR before you even get the job offer. Many times, companies will do this HR meeting during your interview day when you're being seriously considered for the job. This meeting is also where you negotiate your salary. So the exact information will be in your contract and you should already know it. These aren't questions you should be asking in the first place.

 

[aldol16]

@aldol16 raises the issue about job security. Depending on which job you have, you will likely attend seminars or meet associates from other companies in several meetings. Chances are in some of these encounters that you will be able to use these opportunities to show your value or what type of work experience you have. This entire process is part of networking and enables you to have contact information for you to get connected into competitors or other contractors. Doing this in addition to being competent at your job, being able to attract new clients, and asking for favors at reasonable times should give you enough peace of mind that you shouldn't have to be afraid of potentially being fired. I always keep an updated resume and try to invest in a new skill set on a month to month basis in order to create independent growth for myself regardless of what happens at work. Someone could tell me I'm horrible at my job and I'm fired if I don't get them what they want next time, however if I know I did my best then I can take it constructively because my job isn't my sole investment.

I would strongly suggest that people look into realistic Plan B options if they are dissatisfied with their current situation, current pay, or other factors involving the work place. When I negotiate, my employers have understood that I only request a raise because a competitor is willing to pay for it. I'm doing them a favor by requesting a match price. That's how you create value for yourself and I don't think that is a skill set that a lot of medical schools would be directly interested in, however when you get used to selling yourself as a commodity it makes interviews much easier to facilitate.

The issue is that the job market can be a high friction place where you can be fired. At will employment means that employers can fire you at any time they feel you haven't kept up your commitment with them. However, you only have yourself to blame if you are in your 20s and you wake up in cold sweats because you are afraid of losing your job. Being in your 20s with any experience is highly desirable, even with one year of experience you should begin looking at how to branch out and increase your own capital. If you think that it gets easier when you're in your 30s, 40s, or 50s then you're naive. It's when you get older that you should be considered about vertical career promotion e.g. escalating your career within the same company. Ageism isn't so much an issue in medicine which is why many people look at it as a secondary career.

Sure, if you're working a job that requires a unique skill and you're good at it, then you shouldn't have to worry about being fired. But the problem with people in their early 20s is that most are working jobs for which the labor market is already saturated. To make it worse, the "skill" the job requires, if any, is readily found in the labor market. In other words, people just starting out in their careers likely do not have a skill so unique that a company will bend over and hike up its skirt for them. So with today's economy, job security is a huge issue for those in their early 20s.

I would only ever ask for a raise if I knew that there was a reasonably good chance that I could get the same job at another company that will pay me more for it. Knowing when to negotiate is just as important a skill, if not more important, than knowing how to negotiate.

 

[Azete]

I'm not doubting that what you're saying is true, but I just don't see why it's a problem. If I were asked that question I would tell them what times they can expect to be working and how many vacation days they have. And that would be that.

He was just offering an example, the problem is in the attitude which manifests itself daily until they learn what professionalism is.

I can't speak to residency, but I have had experience hiring people in their mid 20s right out of grad school. Certainly not all, but many of them that have never had previous employment show a shocking lack of awareness to basic business conduct. Asking on Friday for Monday off to go out of town, leaving at noon before a long weekend without telling anybody, showing up 10 minutes late every day, taking an extra half hour for lunch, only checking emails once a day, and ignoring work calls on the weekend is just the tip of the iceberg. My personal ultimate pet peeve was when new hires would ask for a raise after 3 months because they bought an apartment/car they couldn't afford.

It eventually corrects itself, but the people doing the hiring don't want to deal with this nonsense because it gets very old.

 

[theonlytycrane]

I can't imagine "being a doctor" as my first real job. I definitely had to get my silliness out on other jobs throughout my life to know how to conduct myself in a professional and responsible manner.

 

[mistafab]

OP

I needed two years to be young, dumb, and full of fun.

Not everyone needs or wants that. Nor does it help everyone. I can never support more rules or hoops on people.

 

[keemobad]

Other reasons include that young applicants without diverse experiences may be going in for the wrong reasons, aren't well rounded, are immature, would benefit from more experience in the work force before entering medical school. I understand this forum will be biased as most are young premeds, but try playing devils advocate.

These people are supposed to be filtered out during the application and interview process. Everyone admitted into medical school have the same potential in the eyes of the ADCOM, whether 20 or 26

 

[Dagrimsta1]

I'm going to head this off before it reaches its inevitable conclusion.

As for OP, I'm not really in favor of a mandatory gap year. I think a gap year is valuable for people who want to take them or need them for whatever reason, but for the 35% or so of applicants who go straight through, its just another hoop to jump through and may not confer any sort of value. I didn't take a gap year because I had nothing else I wanted to do before med school. I have no idea what I would have done if I was forced to take a gap year. I think that going straight from an academic environment into another academic environment. Helped my studying capacity and I think those skills may have atrophied had I done something like sit in a research lab for a year doing research that I didn't want to be doing. Just my 2c.

I didn't get it right away. I am currently in my first (and hopefully final) gap year. I'm currently bored out of my ****ing mind. I have been in school for the past 16 years of my life continuously alongside my work for 6 years. (Different jobs) You are lucky for getting in right away. For the first time, I am free from educational obligations and I have to say that IT SUCKS. I miss school and it sucks that I'm wasting a year of my life in purgatory. I work most of the time while doing research one day a week. It's extremely boring b/c I know that this is all temporary.

As for the OP, everyone is different. Some people like myself and @WedgeDawg don't want to take gap years b/c we don't want to waste time. Some enter med school in their 30's and are happy. I am 21 and have had over 10 different work experiences in all sorts of fields. Does this qualify me for med school? Where do you draw the line?

 

[appalachian_man]

Definitely not. Many people on this forum, myself included (and even the renowned @Goro if I recall correctly), support a mandatory year or two of public service (military, fire/rescue, something of that nature). A year or two of decent pay, great healthcare, good experience, and growth is not a negative.

It's also not something out of reach for poor people. Not having enough money was one of my reasons for joining the Navy.

Oh, give me a break. As someone who has been a full-time student (16+ credit hours per semester), done >1000 hours of research, worked every summer, etc etc, if someone had the audacity to tell me I had to work 2 years in "public service" before I was ready to even APPLY to med school I would laugh in their face.

Now, I could understand making some sort of employment history necessary for applying to med school, just like volunteering is now (and to some extent, research). But working a job over summer break is plenty of experience, no need to "become a firefighter."

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Oh, give me a break. As someone who has been a full-time student (16+ credit hours per semester), done >1000 hours of research, worked every summer, etc etc, if someone had the audacity to tell me I had to work 2 years in "public service" before I was ready to even APPLY to med school I would laugh in their face.

The public service would come before college. It's not a med school check box. It's to learn you some maturity and perspective, which judging by your response you might be lacking in.

Now, I could understand making some sort of employment history necessary for applying to med school, just like volunteering is now (and to some extent, research). But working a job over summer break is plenty of experience, no need to "become a firefighter."

A summer job and public service are not the same, though I agree that any job is better than no job.

 

[appalachian_man]

The public service would come before college. It's not a med school check box. It's to learn you some maturity and perspective, which judging by your response you might be lacking in.



A summer job and public service are not the same, though I agree that any job is better than no job.

Wait, so now you think we need public service before undergrad? Where does it end?

I'd prefer you not assume things about me, but you do as you wish. My work in public service is strongly evident in my application and is something I'm very passionate about. Just because you apparently serve/served in the military doesn't give you the right to patronize others. Furthermore, it's incredibly condescending to call someone immature just because they disagree with you.

And for the record, I agree that applicants should have some sort of job before applying. Whether it's in public service or not doesn't really matter, that's what volunteering is for.

 

[NonTrad16]

As a non-trad, I think I've benefited from the different atmosphere of research-based graduate work as well as those outside of academic environments. That said, I approached research and my job without the tunnel vision of medical school. If someone committed to medicine is forced to sit on their hands for a year, I doubt they'd gain much more than resentment for the powers that be.

 

[Visible Ghost]

yes because I have known some people who went straight from undergrad and could not adjust to the rigors of medical school, and had to drop out.

 

[kb1900]

The public service would come before college. It's not a med school check box. It's to learn you some maturity and perspective, which judging by your response you might be lacking in.



A summer job and public service are not the same, though I agree that any job is better than no job.

Are you serious lol??

So uneccesary and condescending just because he disagreed with you

 

[Visible Ghost]

I'm surprised that no one really addressed the second part of the @piii suggestion which was financial independence.

This concept is laughable and I'm surprised that @Promethean never touched upon it consider they stated they experienced homelessness. A mandatory gap year is unnecessary for a large amount of students who come out with stellar GPAs and supported themselves throughout college by working 30-40 hours a week on top of a bevy of extracurriculars. This shows that they are focused, have strong time management skills, and are able to adapt in a high stress environment. What should be emphasized is the idea of performance.

If students are able to perform in their 4 years with their schedules fully loaded, then they shouldn't be required to have to take a year off. Many students who do start working in their gap year often come in with relatively inadequate work experience. More often than not they don't hear back from many places or start off on places that pay minimum wage. Minimum wage is not a minimum standard for any lifestyle anyone should have and corporations have tried to justify their McDonald's budget to the response of scrutiny. I have stated openly and repeatedly that I think pre-med type jobs are more frequently than not an exploitation of the students and that they should be given at least the $15 that's being dished out to a McDonald's employee.

Is the $15 per hour wage for all McDonalds across the US? I have not heard of this

 

[Visible Ghost]

Are you serious lol??

So uneccesary and condescending just because he disagreed with you

This forum is full of the odd and awkward. I can't imagine ever working or socializing with these types of people as a doctor

 

[Visible Ghost]

There's a girl in my class that's 18 (at Yale). There is no chance you could pick her out unless she told you. Interestingly, research shows individuals in 6- or 7-year medical programs out of high school (start medical school at 20 or 21) have no significant difference in board scores or resident performance than their traditional classmates.

Im going to take a wild guess the 18 year old is Asian-American, specifically Chinese American or Indian-American?

 

[Visible Ghost]

A guy I know of- his girlfriend broke up with him in his senior year. He was depressed the whole summer, went to medical school, and flunked out after a year.

I don't think it is fair to say "he was not built for medicine." A year or two of work for a guy like this would have probably helped him mentally grow and succeed in medical school.

Unfortunately, he threw his potential away for a girl who is doing well in medical school, and probably does not devote 1 second to him

 

[ancientblue]

Im going to take a wild guess the 18 year old is Asian-American, specifically Chinese American or Indian-American?

Actually, she's white (although 40-50% of our class is Asian this year).

 

[Visible Ghost]

Actually, she's white (although 40-50% of our class is Asian this year).

Ok she was probably home schooled haha, and took college classes while in high school. I have to be right on that one!!!

 

[Petrichor1]

How about requiring an applicant to have a full time job and being financially independent before applying?

Just curious.

How about I tell you that most students aren't as fortunate to get employed. Additionally, most of those that are from a low income bracket usually have great difficulty returning to medicine due to financial constraints of debt repayment/ family pressure. For some, a continuing education in medicine keeps them motivated.

I know real life work opens up eyes to new and harsh ordeals that make a person humble but you can't expect to control the dreams and goals of ppl. Also by making a gap year requirement your essentially taking away its uniqueness. For what it's worth ppl will try to make the experience meaningless like all other mandatory things that are treated like checklist. Take for example research. Now all of a sudden ever applicant wants to also be a researcher.

 

[Sardinia]

Is the $15 per hour wage for all McDonalds across the US? I have not heard of this

New York by 2018. Washington D.C. by 2020. California by 2022/2023.

 

[Petrichor1]

This is essentially already an unwritten rule with the average matriculant age climbing. If you are traditional, you better have exceptional stats if you want to get in the first time around. If you're non-traditional, you can sacrifice a little on stats for more in the life experience department.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I don't think we should put traditional applicants on a pedestal. Ppl are realizing that they want to take gap years because of many reasons unrelated to academia. Unless during postgraduate you go after a masters, you were good enough to go straight through.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Wait, so now you think we need public service before undergrad? Where does it end?

There's no "now." I always advocated for it between high school and college, so you can drop that particular straw man.

I'd prefer you not assume things about me, but you do as you wish. My work in public service is strongly evident in my application and is something I'm very passionate about. Just because you apparently serve/served in the military doesn't give you the right to patronize others. Furthermore, it's incredibly condescending to call someone immature just because they disagree with you.

I don't assume anything. Your response was emotional and entitled, not because you disagreed with me (I've had many discussions on the forum where people disagreed with me), but because of the feeling that you don't deserve to have public service forced upon you.

And my service is why I think it should be mandatory. It gives you clutch leadership experience, teaching experience, medical experience if you seek it out, and some perspective on how most of the world lives.

And for the record, I agree that applicants should have some sort of job before applying. Whether it's in public service or not doesn't really matter, that's what volunteering is for.

As I said before, a regular job and a year or two of service are worlds apart.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Are you serious lol??

So uneccesary and condescending just because he disagreed with you

Yep. Saying that someone better not have the audacity to demand you do a year of public service is entitled. If that offends you, maybe you should explore why.

 

[Petrichor1]

That sounds like a terrible idea. What an unnecessary waste of time. It is also biased against people of poorer backgrounds that can't really afford to work a minimum wage scribe job and give up a couple years of their life.

If anything, I would add more extensive career experience in middle school and high school so that kids know more clearly what path they want in college. Then I would streamline the pre-med curriculum and make a two year pre-med track that has bio, Chem/orgo/physics/math (only the small portion that you need to know as a physician) so that you can go into med school by 19 or 20, and be working as an attending by late 20s/early 30s.

Doctors are highly trained professionals. Every year of unnecessary training and education is 1) an unnecessary debt burden 2) an opportunity cost for the physician and for society which misses on that doctor's service.

I would add to this and say colleges need to start pulling their weight. Grade school has done it's fair share of training for no cost to the consumer beyond tax dollars. They woke you up at 7 and had you out by 3 or 5pm. But college is where you pay a great amount. Why isn't there a more organized way then to guide students? This doesn't mean the career center. It means that each major has proper employment streams for students to use. I remember going to my career fair and it was so pathetic. The one company known for science was taking graduate students and everything else was banking or nonprofit related which i had no idea if it related to my major. When I inquired more after graduation, other similar companies offered coop and internships but they were never advertised or recruited for by my school. I appreciate the scavenger approach but while I'm in school I expect someone to help me get employed at or before graduation. Why then are these resources not mentioned anywhere. Again all for the show....

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This forum is full of the odd and awkward. I can't imagine ever working or socializing with these types of people as a doctor

Yes, it's odd to advocate for mandatory public service for 18 year olds (again, not necessarily military). God forbid our young adults have to actually serve the country or neighborhoods they live in and maybe appreciate their lot in life a little.

 

[appalachian_man]

There's no "now." I always advocated for it between high school and college, so you can drop that particular straw man.

My point isn't that you're just now making the argument, my point is that it seems like 1) a completely arbitrary time to enforce mandatory public service and 2) a ridiculously absurd idea. Not a strawman.

I don't assume anything. Your response was emotional and entitled, not because you disagreed with me (I've had many discussions on the forum where people disagreed with me), but because of the feeling that you don't deserve to have public service forced upon you.

And my service is why I think it should be mandatory. It gives you clutch leadership experience, teaching experience, medical experience if you seek it out, and some perspective on how most of the world lives

You assume a lot. You do not know me or what I have done during my time here on this earth. And no, I don't deserve to have public service forced upon me before applying, BECAUSE I've proven my commitment to serving my community. You want to call me entitled for busting my ass off for the past 4+ years, and then getting offended if some random administrator tells me "nope, not good enough?" Go ahead, bud. Your superiority complex is clearly showing, but then again I've come to expect nothing less from people like you.

As I said before, a regular job and a year or two of service are worlds apart.

I agree. No one is contesting that. My point was that you can gain the same perspective/insight/experiences from working a regular job AND volunteering in your community. Also, who said "a regular job" can't involve public service? You say "not necessarily military" but it's obvious that's the only job you consider worth anything.

Yep. Saying that someone better not have the audacity to demand you do a year of public service is entitled. If that offends you, maybe you should explore why.

Again, I didn't say that. I said if someone looked at my application now, and then told me I needed 1-2 years of "public service" to even APPLY to med school, I would laugh in their face. And once again, you assume things about me when you don't know me or my resumé.

Looking back over your posts and now what I've written, it's clear I'm not going to change your mind. I wish you the best and hope you realize that there are other ways beyond your own personal experiences to mature and grow as a person that will prepare one for medical school. Considering the fact that I've already been admitted, you can stop wasting your time trying to explain to me what I do and don't need for medical school. Either you possess more insight than several adcoms or, and I know this sounds crazy to you, you might be a little off-base.

 

[appalachian_man]

@people saying that holding 2 part time jobs through college to support yourself financialyl doesn't constitute enough work experience to prepare for a full time job - this is frankly rediculous.

I can't even schedule a day off work for an interview without 5 weeks notice and need to find coverage before even thinking about committing to a day off. I don't know where these stories of new residents asking for time off come from, but they sound exaggerated and likely the minority. Outside of my first two summers in college I've had 1 single weeklong vacation and 30-50 hours/week of work outside of school.

Also nothing wrong with asking about professional expectations if you aren't aware - PDs would rather make the medical profession harder to get into and increase the already higher age of medical graduates just so you can AVOID setting ground rules or responding to dumb questions in your residency about vacation and holidays?? Where is the data to support this claim?? Literally everything I've seen shows that graduates of combined 6/7 year programs have no difference in residency performance from others.

This entire idea seems like an over reaction by someone who just feels younger kids are entitled rather than a sentiment fueled by sound logic/realizing the bigger picture about what is really needed to make a doctor.

/end rant

Preach it, dude/dudette. But apparently, we both need to learn us some perspective

Also, if we have such a physician shortage, why would we delay and discourage people going to med school for some mandatory "service" that most premeds would probably turn into a 2 year long "mission trip" (read: vacation)? Furthermore, are all of you saying our current docs should have spent years of their lives committed to public service before they went to med school? I think medicine inherently humbles and teaches its students the necessary life lessons to be a compassionate and adept physician. Whether or not one heeds those lessons speaks more to their character than to the process of training.

 

[JB50]

The reason they're asking is because they aren't sure what the rules are. When did asking questions become a bad thing? Just tell them what the rules are.

Not sure what the big issue is, to be honest.

I mean, have you ever started a job then asked off a week later? Let alone probably one of the busiest jobs ever? It's kind of common sense inappropriate and you usually learn that from work experience lol.

 

[piii]

These people are supposed to be filtered out during the application and interview process. Everyone admitted into medical school have the same potential in the eyes of the ADCOM, whether 20 or 26

No, not everyone is viewed the same. There certainly were worth being admitted. But some people struggle, some people drop out, some people are better or worse doctors. It is foolish to think everyone is equal

 

[Goro]

Where did you steal my cat pic from!!??!!

New York by 2018. Washington D.C. by 2020. California by 2022/2023.

 

[Goro]

Actually, there is no physician shortage. Only a maldistribution.

Also, if we have such a physician shortage, why would we delay and discourage people going to med school for some mandatory "service" that most premeds would probably turn into a 2 year long "mission trip" (read: vacation)? Furthermore, are all of you saying our current docs should have spent years of their lives committed to public service before they went to med school? I think medicine inherently humbles and teaches its students the necessary life lessons to be a compassionate and adept physician. Whether or not one heeds those lessons speaks more to their character than to the process of training.

 

[kraskadva]

As a non-trad who teaches 18-22 year-olds on the daily, this is very entertaining.

 

[peridotthecat]

My point isn't that you're just now making the argument, my point is that it seems like 1) a completely arbitrary time to enforce mandatory public service and 2) a ridiculously absurd idea. Not a strawman.


You assume a lot. You do not know me or what I have done during my time here on this earth. And no, I don't deserve to have public service forced upon me before applying, BECAUSE I've proven my commitment to serving my community. You want to call me entitled for busting my ass off for the past 4+ years, and then getting offended if some random administrator tells me "nope, not good enough?" Go ahead, bud. Your superiority complex is clearly showing, but then again I've come to expect nothing less from people like you.


I agree. No one is contesting that. My point was that you can gain the same perspective/insight/experiences from working a regular job AND volunteering in your community. Also, who said "a regular job" can't involve public service? You say "not necessarily military" but it's obvious that's the only job you consider worth anything.


Again, I didn't say that. I said if someone looked at my application now, and then told me I needed 1-2 years of "public service" to even APPLY to med school, I would laugh in their face. And once again, you assume things about me when you don't know me or my resumé.

Looking back over your posts and now what I've written, it's clear I'm not going to change your mind. I wish you the best and hope you realize that there are other ways beyond your own personal experiences to mature and grow as a person that will prepare one for medical school. Considering the fact that I've already been admitted, you can stop wasting your time trying to explain to me what I do and don't need for medical school. Either you possess more insight than several adcoms or, and I know this sounds crazy to you, you might be a little off-base.

I may be wrong, but I think @Matthew9Thirtyfive is advocating for mandatory public service for everyone at 18, not just pre-meds. Many countries require citizens to complete public service (usually military service) at 18

 

[appalachian_man]

I may be wrong, but I think @Matthew9Thirtyfive is advocating for mandatory public service for everyone at 18, not just pre-meds. Many countries require citizens to complete public service (usually military service) at 18

You are probably right, but that is another topic entirely and not relevant to the question OP asked. I don't exactly understand how requiring years of public service from people who are pursuing careers in public service is necessary.

 

[appalachian_man]

Actually, there is no physician shortage. Only a maldistribution.

That makes sense. My mistake, then.

 

[peridotthecat]

You are probably right, but that is another topic entirely and not relevant to the question OP asked. I don't exactly understand how requiring years of public service from people who are pursuing careers in public service is necessary.

It's relevant in that the point of requiring a gap year and/or minimum age for applying would presumably be to ensure that applicants are suitably mature, have life/work experience outside of school, etc. If everyone completed mandatory public service, that should allay most of those concerns.

It is a broader topic, though