Wow Way to be Put Off

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Really? I think you're wrong that the training helps, actually. Well, no, I shouldn't go that far. I mean that the aspects of the training that I am talking about (lack of sleep, ridicule, poor diet, etc.) don't help with that. What does 80 hours a week prepare you for that you couldn't get in 60 hours a week? Other than sleeplessness? I think chronic stress is something that you should prepare for by trying to relax, rather than by putting yourself into more chronically stressful situations. The more stress you have (once you reach critical mass), the less efficient, healthy, intelligent, etc., you will be. How can that be good???

Good to see we're civil now. The only reason I got so angry is that I'm tired of people who have no experience in this field offering borderline useless solutions to the healthcare issue. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not being nasty. What I'm saying is I don't appreciate people pointing out what they observe to be glaring problems. Please stay out of it. Your propositions are nice, and in a perfect world I agree with you. But please I implore you stick to law and leave me be to the medicine.

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no5no5, if you don't mind me asking, what do you believe should be the basis of how much money people make? Do you believe it should be A) whatever the free market will bare? Or should it B) involve some measure of how much time and money they have sacrificed to achieve their position?

If you say yes to either of those, how can you possibly believe that a physician is worth only $100k/year, even if it's while working 40 hours a week? You're husband is a resident, so you see how much dedication he's put into it first-hand. Do you really think what he's gone through and what he's going to do for the rest of his working life is only worth $100k/year? Is keeping people healthy and saving their lives really so mundane as to be worth a mere $100k/year? Hell, my dad has a BS and an MBA and he makes more than that as a power plant manager working 40 hours a week.

Now, I'm not one to begrudge what anyone makes, especially when that is what the free market will bear, as I'm a firm believer in option A. It's like eBay. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, not some arbitrary amount set by some pencil-pusher far removed.

As for this quote of yours:
Well, first of all, the crooks on Wall Street only steal from rich folk, and I don't mind that as much for some reason.

That's just a flat out horrible sentiment that smacks of moral relativism. I seriously hope you're joking and don't actually believe that it is A) right or B) true. How about all those good, middle-class working people that lost their entire retirement funds when Enron collapsed? Only stealing from rich people? No, that's far from true.
 
Your propositions are nice, and in a perfect world I agree with you. But please I implore you stick to law and leave me be to the medicine.

The funny thing about law is that it has its little fingers in everything else...so this is actually a legal conversation as well as a medical one. ;)
 
no5no5, if you don't mind me asking, what do you believe should be the basis of how much money people make? Do you believe it should be A) whatever the free market will bare? Or should it B) involve some measure of how much time and money they have sacrificed to achieve their position?

No, I don't mind you asking, and actually this is a topic that I have thought long and hard about. I believe that in an ideal society (which is obviously not actually achievable), people would make money based on (1) how much they like their job; (2) how hard their job is; (3) how easy it would be for others to do that job; and (4) how good they are at their job. Doctors theoretically like their jobs, but their jobs are really hard and they're not easy to replace. So I think they should make more than an average person. Good doctors should make more than bad doctors. I think my list of factors would actually result in a pretty similar salary to what a free market system (if one of those existed) would come up with. Of course, we don't have a free market system, and I don't honestly believe that they're possible.

If you say yes to either of those, how can you possibly believe that a physician is worth only $100k/year, even if it's while working 40 hours a week? You're husband is a resident, so you see how much dedication he's put into it first-hand. Do you really think what he's gone through and what he's going to do for the rest of his working life is only worth $100k/year? Is keeping people healthy and saving their lives really so mundane as to be worth a mere $100k/year? Hell, my dad has a BS and an MBA and he makes more than that as a power plant manager working 40 hours a week.

I think you have (understandably) misunderstood my previous post in which I said that I thought $100k/year is a good wage. What I meant is that I would be satisfied if I made that much. I didn't mean that doctors shouldn't get paid more than that. Sorry that wasn't clear. Personally, my husband loves medicine and would do it for much less than $100k a year if he had to. But then, we don't have any desire to live in the big city.

As for this quote of yours:

That's just a flat out horrible sentiment that smacks of moral relativism. I seriously hope you're joking and don't actually believe that it is A) right or B) true. How about all those good, middle-class working people that lost their entire retirement funds when Enron collapsed? Only stealing from rich people? No, that's far from true.

Yeah, okay. :oops: I was being a bit tongue in cheek because I didn't want to get into details. Actually, if I happened to be lurking on a stockbroker's forum in which stockbrokers were talking about how unfair it is that some people think they make a load of money, I would probably post to say that they do, in fact, make a load of money.

I do think that it's particularly ironic that doctors engage in overwork for money, since the profession is all about health. Stockbrokers, one expects this from, since their profession is all about money.

But I really don't think that Enron has anything to do with this because Enron was a result of unethical behavior, not a result of legally high stockbroker salaries.

High stockbroker salaries, on the other hand, when they are legally earned, are a result of their making people money...so one doesn't really worry about the people they are making money for as much as one worries about people who have no money to invest. I absolutely think it's worse to steal from poor people than it is to steal from rich people. I don't think that's morally relativist. It's a bigger harm because it has a bigger impact on their lives. I'm not saying it's right to steal from rich people, I'm just saying that rich people can generally take care of themselves, so I don't feel as obligated to stick up for them.
 
Wow thanks for reminding me that nothing exists in a vacuum. Sometimes I lose sight of reality, something you can obviously relate to. But good job covering for yourself after your-what is it-ignorant, naive, self-righteous, delusional (I don't know which one) statements? It seems every time someone explains to you why what you are saying is simplistic or misguided you fumble through a train wreck of an explanation about how everything you said has been misunderstood or exaggerated to make a point. To the OP-if you want to have arguments like this for the rest of your life, go to medical school.
 
I don't doubt that there are some indeed.

If you don't mind me asking what field is your husband doing residency in? If I had to guess I'd say surgery.

Let me also add by saying that there are several other fields that have similar or worse environments:
- the military
- football (ANY level), you probably could add a lot of major sports in this category as well
- wall st. / investment banking
- i wouldn't put it past some law firms as well

Not surgery...and actually his program (though competitive) is pretty decent compared to what I know some residencies are like. But those of you in medicine may have become so accustomed to the system that you can't see how it looks to outsiders. My husband has had attendings say and do things to him (even in med school) that I would never, under any circumstances, tolerate. Once, an attending jabbed him with a needle because he wasn't quick enough to get something. I imagine my boss stabbing me with a pencil...and I can tell you, I would quit on the spot, and probably file a complaint with the appropriate authority as well. But then, I was raised to stick up for myself and not to let people mistreat me.

Oh, yes, some law firms are just as bad as residency. I wouldn't work at one of those firms if they paid me a million dollars a year, and I mean that.

Anyway, I'm going to try to stop posting and leave the medical forum to you medical types. I don't know what got into me. :rolleyes::laugh:

Have fun without me and best of luck. :)
 
We will have fun without you. OP I would like to add to that- don't go to medical school, go to law school. As a lawyer, you can sit all day at the computer on a healthcare message board answering posts. I on the other hand have to hit the books and get some sleep. TTFN
 
no5no5, if you don't mind me asking, what do you believe should be the basis of how much money people make? Do you believe it should be A) whatever the free market will bare? Or should it B) involve some measure of how much time and money they have sacrificed to achieve their position?

If you say yes to either of those, how can you possibly believe that a physician is worth only $100k/year, even if it's while working 40 hours a week? You're husband is a resident, so you see how much dedication he's put into it first-hand. Do you really think what he's gone through and what he's going to do for the rest of his working life is only worth $100k/year? Is keeping people healthy and saving their lives really so mundane as to be worth a mere $100k/year? Hell, my dad has a BS and an MBA and he makes more than that as a power plant manager working 40 hours a week.

Now, I'm not one to begrudge what anyone makes, especially when that is what the free market will bear, as I'm a firm believer in option A. It's like eBay. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, not some arbitrary amount set by some pencil-pusher far removed.

As for this quote of yours:

That's just a flat out horrible sentiment that smacks of moral relativism. I seriously hope you're joking and don't actually believe that it is A) right or B) true. How about all those good, middle-class working people that lost their entire retirement funds when Enron collapsed? Only stealing from rich people? No, that's far from true.

A biased system of values. Very interesting.
 
...Who would you trust more to donate money to a good cause: a doctor, a wall street type, a lawyer, a CEO/CFO, an entertainer/athlete, etc?

Personally, I'd take the doctor every time.



Just thought I would highlight this ridiculous statement
 
People can complain about high physican salaries all they want, but tell them that they'll have to wait a week longer to get ABX for their viral URI because the doctor doesn't work past 3pm and you'll really see them throw a sh*tfit.

But people already do that. It's just the working class and poor, who are invisible in these discussions.

If you can't get into the government sliding-scale clinic by close on Friday, you grit your teeth and suffer til Monday. THere's nothing like sitting there with someone with an infection that has them fevered and incoherent and trying to work out if it would be better to try to see if he can make it through til Monday or if we should go to the ER...because Monday you only pay fifty but the ER will be four to six hundred...but he'd get care NOW, before the infection goes systemic or hits a major organ...but we don't know that it will go that bad before the weekend's over, and we don't have five hundred bucks to throw around, and....(sigh)

I don't know what the overall answer is. But the current system has some pretty deep flaws.
 
But people already do that. It's just the working class and poor, who are invisible in these discussions.

If you can't get into the government sliding-scale clinic by close on Friday, you grit your teeth and suffer til Monday. THere's nothing like sitting there with someone with an infection that has them fevered and incoherent and trying to work out if it would be better to try to see if he can make it through til Monday or if we should go to the ER...because Monday you only pay fifty but the ER will be four to six hundred...but he'd get care NOW, before the infection goes systemic or hits a major organ...but we don't know that it will go that bad before the weekend's over, and we don't have five hundred bucks to throw around, and....(sigh)

I don't know what the overall answer is. But the current system has some pretty deep flaws.

While I don't totally disagree with your point, you've taken my statement completely out of context.

We were discussing how people, even those who are well insured, are already upset about access to care despite the sometimes ridiculous hours that physicians work. If you cut workload, as no5no5 was proposing, in an effort to improve physican quality of life, then you'll have people rioting in the streets.

Having physicians maintain or increase their workload won't help the problem that you're addressing. If you want to discuss improving access for the under- or uninsured, then that's a separate issue for a separate thread.
 
Second, of course, is the fact that I like seeing my husband once in a while. I don't really care whether stockbrokers have time off. ;)

No, I admit that I'm hopelessly naive, and I'm afraid that will never change. When I see what I perceive to be a problem, I can't help but try to figure out ways to improve it. It's sad, really, because I am well aware that the majority of Americans either don't understand or don't care. Or both. Ah, well. :rolleyes:

Snarky comment of the day: Every dollar in paycuts for physicians you advocate today is a dollar less in child support that you'll receive tomorrow. See? It really is a matter of perspective.
 
So, what I'm getting from this is that you think:

(1) Doctors are better than everyone else.

(2) Working long hours, getting next to no sleep, and being unappreciated and denigrated for years is what makes doctors better than everyone else.

(3) Trying to change your environment (rather than merely accepting it and changing yourself to fit in) is what weak, lazy people do.

Is it just me, or is that really, really sad? :cry:

So, what I'm getting from this is that you aren't particularly bright.

EDIT: Read the rest of the thread. As expected...
 
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