wtf is congress doing?

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Chloroform4Life

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Physicians Seeing Fewer Medicare Patients Because of Low Pay and Threat of Cut

Robert Lowes
Authors and Disclosures

June 3, 2010 — The failure of Congress to permanently solve the Medicare reimbursement crisis is making it harder for seniors to make an appointment with a physician, according to a new survey by the American Medical Association (AMA).
The online survey of 9000 physicians in May revealed that 17% — and 31% of those in primary care — are limiting the number of Medicare patients they treat, with most of them explaining that Medicare rates are too low and that the threat of future cuts "makes Medicare an unreliable payer," in the words of the survey.
The AMA released the survey today in tandem with the debut of an ad campaign urging Americans to pressure the Senate to address Medicare reimbursement when it convenes next Monday after a week-long Memorial Day break.
Last Friday, the House passed a Democrat-sponsored bill that would postpone a scheduled 21.3% reduction in Medicare reimbursement from June 1 to January 1, 2012, and give physicians small raises in the meantime. However, Senate Democrats opted not to try to pass the legislation in their chamber that day, saying they did not have enough time to do so before the Memorial Day break. Instead, senators began flying home that Friday.
Senate Democrats have a harder time passing legislation than their House counterparts because Senate Republicans command the 41 votes needed to sustain a bill-blocking filibuster, which is not permitted in the House.
As a result of Senate inaction, the draconian pay cut took effect on Tuesday, June 1, although the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services is holding June claims for the first 10 business days of the month, or through June 14, in the hope that Congress will avert the reduction retroactively.
The cut was triggered by the sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula that Medicare uses to set physician reimbursement. The formula sets an annual target for Medicare spending on physician services based partly on growth in the gross domestic product. If actual spending exceeds the target, Medicare is supposed to decrease physician reimbursement the following year to recoup the difference. Every time Congress postpones a cut — an annual practice since 2003 — the difference between targeted and actual spending accumulates, translating into bigger and bigger cuts.
This year's reduction was set to take effect on January 1, but Congress put off the effective date until March 1, then April 1, and then June 1. It missed the deadline to avert the cuts set for March 1 and April 1, and had to retroactively undo them.


Permanent Fix Still Needed, Says AMA
Although the AMA and other major medical societies want Congress to rectify the most recent cut before June 14, they do not favor a solution along the lines of last week's House legislation, which would postpone the cut for several months or years. Such solutions, they argue, only subject physicians to even deeper cuts when a temporary "doc fix," as lawmakers call it, expires. For example, physicians would face a 33% rate reduction on January 1, 2012, under the House bill. Instead, organized medicine has urged Congress to repeal the SGR formula and replace it with something more equitable for medical practices...........


By the time I get around to practicing, the accumulated cuts will be like 90%. Damn the government, they better their **** together.
 
I wish all physicians would drop Medicare/Medicaid pts. That will send a clear and loud message to Congress. That will show the politicians that physicians still have clout in this country. Although if we did that, Congress probably will get so pissed off at us that they probably would nationalize the entire healthcare industry. 😀
 
I wish all physicians would drop Medicare/Medicaid pts. That will send a clear and loud message to Congress. That will show the politicians that physicians still have clout in this country. Although if we did that, Congress probably will get so pissed off at us that they probably would nationalize the entire healthcare industry. 😀

or states will begin passing laws prohibiting the renewal of medical licenses to physicians who refuse to partake in medicare/medicaid
 
or states will begin passing laws prohibiting the renewal of medical licenses to physicians who refuse to partake in medicare/medicaid

I believe there's legislation in Mass. which would prevent physician license renewal if the doc doesn't accept medicaid patients. I am sure there are legislation in other states brewing up also.
 
Physicians need a legal defense fund to fight all of these stupid, unconstitutional gov't mandates. The Idaho docs should have fought instead of settled.

If every MD cut in 1-3k a year, we'd destroy the gov't in the courts.

Unfortunately, we will all end up gov't slaves.
 
Obama and GOP bicker over doctors' Medicare pay

By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer Charles Babington, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 42 mins ago

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is asking Republican lawmakers to approve billions of dollars in new spending to avert a scheduled 21 percent cut in payments to doctors who treat Medicare patients.
If GOP senators don't allow the stalled proposal to pass, some doctors will stop treating Medicare recipients, Obama said in his weekly radio and Internet address Saturday.
The Senate's top Republican, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, said his party wants to avoid reducing physicians' fees, but do it without adding to the deficit — meaning spending cuts elsewhere.
The president noted that since 2003, Congresses led by Democrats and by Republicans alike have blocked similar proposed cuts in doctors' reimbursement rates. But now, he said, Republicans are "willing to walk away from the needs of our doctors and our seniors."
The "doc fix" is part of a large, Democratic-drafted bill that would extend several popular tax breaks while greatly increasing the tax that oil companies pay into a spill liability fund. Republican senators have focused their objections on the bill's tax increases, not the doctors' pay matter.
"Even in the face of public outrage, Democrats are showing either that they just dont get it on this issue of the debt, or that they just dont care," McConnell said.
For years, lawmakers from both parties routinely have said that would trim Medicare reimbursement rates as a way to save money and make their budget plans appear more frugal. Later, in a move that watchdog groups call cynical, the lawmakers routinely undo the proposed cuts in doctor payments, which are considered politically unpalatable.
Obama acknowledged that a better plan is needed.
"I realize that simply kicking these cuts down the road another year is not a long-term solution," he said. "I am committed to permanently reforming this Medicare formula in a way that balances fiscal responsibility with the responsibility we have to doctors and seniors."
The president said he is "absolutely willing to take the difficult steps necessary to lower the cost of Medicare and put our budget on a more fiscally sustainable path. But I'm not willing to do that by punishing hardworking physicians or the millions of Americans who count on Medicare. That's just wrong. And that's why in the short-term, Congress must act to prevent this pay cut to doctors."
In the GOP weekly radio address, House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio called on Obama to rein in government spending and accused the president of "refusing to make the tough choices" when it comes to budget cuts. While Boehner did not mention the dispute over Medicare doctor payments, he renewed his attack on the new health care law, saying its "burdensome mandates and tax increases" are stalling economic recovery.






Is it just me but does this sounds like Obama is on our side in term of physician reimbursement? I'm not very hopeful since I know how politicians can change their mind in a quick second, but I feel some hope with this.
 
So where are all the Republican Obama haters that frequent this forum? They have been conveniently silent on this issue. The Senate Republicans have decided to cut physician reimbursement by 21% and you still say they are on our side? What a joke.
 
Physicians need a legal defense fund to fight all of these stupid, unconstitutional gov't mandates. The Idaho docs should have fought instead of settled.

If every MD cut in 1-3k a year, we'd destroy the gov't in the courts.

Every ASA member should:

1) go to http://www.asahq.org/
2) log in (user name is 1st inital followed by your last name, all lower case)
3) I think the default password is your ASA #, if you don't remember your password, they can email it to you
4) click the ASAPAC link at the top, then click the contribute button
5) set up a recurring monthly donation - $300/year is a real contribution and it's just $25/month to help protect our profession AND ensure patients continue to receive the safest anesthesiologist-directed care

asapac.jpg
 
So where are all the Republican Obama haters that frequent this forum? They have been conveniently silent on this issue. The Senate Republicans have decided to cut physician reimbursement by 21% and you still say they are on our side? What a joke.


This is all about priniciple. If you read the article, it says they are in favor of increasing reimbursement but want to make sure it is deficit neutral. You would think physician reimbursement would be part of a comprehensive health care bill right? Not according to Obama cause he knew it would blow up his health care bill and no longer be "deficit neutral." Now he's trying to lay blame on Republicans cause they won't support his plan to reimburse physicians. Personally, although I'm in the military and currently do not have to deal w/medicare, not increasing medicare payments now might be painful for physicians but it alteast forces the issue and maybe if physicians stop accepting medicare, patient's will realize that this system is crap. Of course, Obama will probably start making us villains and will somehow force us to see them through new government regulations which wouldn't surprise me. We need to be ready for that fight.
 
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Um, this is not the time to be fighting for "principle". Whether we like it or not Medicare is here to stay. The public is not going to allow it to disappear. The reality is that many physicians will now be firing employees, filing for bankruptcy, retiring early, quitting, etc. because they can't afford these 21% cuts in reimbursement. Oh and by the way, private insurance reimbursements are determined by Medicare rates. So that means physician reimbursement in general will be cut. The Republicans are biting the hand that used to feed them. These cuts have a very real and immediate impact on practicing physicians. They are using us as pawns in a game against Medicare. But guess who loses? We do.
 
This is all about priniciple. If you read the article, it says they are in favor of increasing reimbursement but want to make sure it is deficit neutral. You would think physician reimbursement would be part of a comprehensive health care bill right? Not according to Obama cause he knew it would blow up his health care bill and no longer be "deficit neutral." Now he's trying to lay blame on Republicans cause they won't support his plan to reimburse physicians. Personally, although I'm in the military and currently do not have to deal w/medicare, not increasing medicare payments now might be painful for physicians but it alteast forces the issue and maybe if physicians stop accepting medicare, patient's will realize that this system is crap. Of course, Obama will probably start making us villains and will somehow force us to see them through new government regulations which wouldn't surprise me. We need to be ready for that fight.

Exactly!

The general public doesn't realize lame organizations like the AMA publically supported Obama's health bill with the "backdoor underground agreement" that Obama must push for the "doc fix" after the health bill was passed.

The Republicans are cornering Obama. And the Democrats can't support Obama cause election time is so near and the public is against further run up of the defecit. This is a great political manuever by the Republican party.
 
Exactly!

The general public doesn't realize lame organizations like the AMA publically supported Obama's health bill with the "backdoor underground agreement" that Obama must push for the "doc fix" after the health bill was passed.

The Republicans are cornering Obama. And the Democrats can't support Obama cause election time is so near and the public is against further run up of the defecit. This is a great political manuever by the Republican party.

Great. Sounds like you're an attending nearing the end of your career, in academics, indepentently wealthy, or in the military. I guess a 21% cut doesn't hurt you, your employees, or your family. But for me and the majority of physicians this could ruin our lives. It's sad when physicians sell each other out and can't unite for the greater good.
 
Great. Sounds like you're an attending nearing the end of your career, in academics, indepentently wealthy, or in the military. I guess a 21% cut doesn't hurt you, your employees, or your family. But for me and the majority of physicians this could ruin our lives. It's sad when physicians sell each other out and can't unite for the greater good.

A 33% pay cut won't ruin any anesthesiologist's life. Live within your means and get a grip. A 3 year old CPO Benz is still a nice ride, and the new Accord looks fine by me. Oh nooos we gots to go to go to the Caribbean again, but Bora Bora looked so sweet!+pity+
You can still go on Safari in Tanzania next year.
Change is a comin', salaries are going to drop. If it's not CRNA pressure, it will be insurance and Mcaid. Prepare now, make smart choices, stay happy.
 
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A 33% pay cut won't ruin any anesthesiologist's life. Live within your means and get a grip. A 3 year old CPO Benz is still a nice ride, and the new Accord looks fine by me. Oh nooos we gots to go to go to the Caribbean again, but Bora Bora looked so sweet!+pity+
You can still go on Safari in Tanzania next year.
Change is a comin', salaries are going to drop. If it's not CRNA pressure, it will be insurance and Mcaid. Prepare now, make smart choices, stay happy.

You're an idiot. I drive a Ford Focus, have a $150K condo. Haven't been on vacation in 8 years. I also have $300K in student loan debt. Salaries don't have to drop if we don't let them. Your nonchalant attitude is what is going to kill this profession. I despise colleagues like you. I earn every penny I make. Money can be used to do a lot of good - not just buy luxury items like you suggest.
 
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Naive MS-2 here: I'm an older student trying to get a handle on financial and insurance issues sooner than later. My understanding was that private insurance companies base their reimbursement rates on Medicare rates. If this is true, wouldn't refusing Medicare patients have a negligible positive impact on salary? All the chatter has been about government insurance, but if the aforementioned is true, wouldn't things basically stay the same unless the Feds required us to see a certain % of Medicare patients?

Any info/clarification would be appreciated. I know this is elementary stuff, but we don't learn this stuff in medical school even though I think it's infinitely more important than what Blastomycosis looks like under microscope. Thank you.
 
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Naive MS-2 here: I'm an older student trying to get a handle on financial and insurance issues sooner than later. My understanding was that private insurance companies base their reimbursement rates on Medicare rates. If this is true, wouldn't refusing Medicare patients have a negligible positive impact on salary? All the chatter has been about government insurance, but if the aforementioned is true, wouldn't things basically stay the same unless the Feds required us to see a certain % of Medicare patients?

Any info/clarification would be appreciated. I know this is elementary stuff, but we don't learn this stuff in medical school even though I think it's infinitely more important than what Blastomycosis looks like under microscope. Thank you.

You partially answered your own question. Private insurers do base their reimbursement rates on Medicare. So if Medicare drops reimbursement by 21%, eventually private insurers will follow suit.

You also have to take into account that currently 15% of the US population is enrolled in Medicare. By 2030, 21% of the population will be enrolled in Medicare.

So it sounds like an easy solution - stop seeing Medicare patients. However, when they make up over 20% of the population and they also use the majority of our health care resources, you wouldn't be able to run a practice without seeing Medicare patients. There simply wouldn't be enough patients to keep you profitable.
 
DrRobert, Obama/dems intentionally left the doc fix out of the final HCR bill to get a favorable CBO score.

And, the solution to increase our reimbursement is NOT renewing doc fix every year on medicare. The solution is to stop government-insurace. I would rather have 4 PP and one Medicare patient with NO doc fix than 3 PP and 2 medicare patient with doc fix. You are seeing trees, not the forest.
 
DrRobert, Obama/dems intentionally left the doc fix out of the final HCR bill to get a favorable CBO score.

And, the solution to increase our reimbursement is NOT renewing doc fix every year on medicare. The solution is to stop government-insurace. I would rather have 4 PP and one Medicare patient with NO doc fix than 3 PP and 2 medicare patient with doc fix. You are seeing trees, not the forest.

I see the forest. It's just impossible to argue with you ideologues. Of course only having private insurers and doing away with Medicare/Medicaid would be ideal. But I live in reality. And the reality is that these programs aren't going anywhere. Some are hoping they will go bankrupt and disappear. However, politicians will always find a way to stop this from happening. It would be political suicide to take these programs away. They've been around forever and now people depend on them. The time frame to abolish these systems and go private sector only disappeared in the 1980s. Medicare is here to stay folks.

I also agree that getting rid of the SGR formula is also ideal. However, physicians have been lobbying for years and it still isn't fixed.

So your choices are:

1. Accept a 21% pay cut and wait for Medicare to go away.

2. Accept a 21% pay cut and wait for SGR to be fixed.

3. Fight the 21% pay cut and wait for Medicare to go away.

4. Fight the 21% pay cut and wait for SGR to be fixed.


It seems the ideologues on here like options 1 or 2. In reality option 4 is the only option that makes sense.
 
I agree with DrRobert. As much as I hate the fact that Obama is making medicare bigger and how he left the SGR and medicare cut out of the health care bill to cover his ass, the bill has already pass. Medicare is only going to get bigger. Ideologically, I know many of us want to reject everything Obama stands for, but I don't think he is trying to screw doctors over. He did mention wanting to have a permanent fix to the medicare cut problem instead of the yearly "doc fix" that has been going for years. This I can only imagine means getting rid of the SGR. I'm not going to give him credit for anything yet since its just words coming from his mouth. But this permanent fix is something we should all advocate. The 21% cut may not sound a lot to some of you, but if the SGR continue, in 10 years, it can accumulate to a 40-50% cut from current payment.
 
"House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio called on Obama to rein in government spending and accused the president of "refusing to make the tough choices" when it comes to budget cuts. While Boehner did not mention the dispute over Medicare doctor payments, he renewed his attack on the new health care law, saying its "burdensome mandates and tax increases" are stalling economic recovery."

Is this in any way true? Does this "leader" have any figures to back this up? For some reason I thought that the vast majority of the new healthcare law won't take effect for awhile. I, for some reason, thought the tepid economic recovery was due to the tremendous amount of deleveraging of debt overhead by businesses and individuals which will take years to work out.
 
I follow politics very closely (having live in the Washington DC area 3/4 of my life).

As far as the business of medicine is concerned, while I don't completely trust the current Rebpublican leaderships, I have never trusted any Democratic leadership.

The Dems are heavily influenced by the American Trial Lawyers Association. The health bill has been passed and there's no chance in hell they will add anything in the near future that compromises the lawyers ability to make money.

That being said, the Dems want to make medicine more affordable for the average joe/jane. All the public is educated on is that primary care docs make around $150K and the specialists can make upwards to 1 million. What they don't realize is total physician compensations as it relates to overall healthcare spending; physician salaries only make up less than 10% of healthcare spending. This is already down from 17% back in the early 1990s.

So where is the other 90% of money being spent on. Once we answer that question, the healthcare crisis is solved.

Now getting back to the "doc fix." Again while I don't completely trust the republicans on this (republicans generally support big health insurers who I despise but they are a necessarily evil). The republicans are pushing Obama's buttons. Obama cannot get the moderate Democrats to go along with increasing the federal deficit.

This is an election year. Everyone is trying to kick the bucket pass election time in hopes the people forget.

Remember the health care bill in March. The reason they were hurrying against a deadline is because they wanted some of it to take effect in 6 months (Sept 2010). The Dems wanted something to show for their work. So they eliminated pre-exisiting conditions for children starting this September. Of course the taxes began next year. And the real spending won't began till 2010.

The republicans want Obama to be forced to admit, he can't get the doc fix in. Right now the pathetic AMA is fuming. But since they had a backdoor deal (supposedly) with Obama/Dems, they won't say anything. But if there is no doc fix, the AMA must go public to denounce Obama by reneging on his promise of the doc fix. Or else the AMA risks losing even more members.

So the republican tactic puts Obama in a Catch-22 situation. He's not up for reelection. But many of the moderate Democrats are. They already stuck out their political lives for him with the heath bill. But they aren't going to go on the record by approving the Doc Fix will will add billions to the deficit and election season is just a couple of months away.

And yes this is about principal. Americans are just fed up with government all together. We can't just keep on doing funny match with our accounting. We can just keep kicking the bucket down the road. Greece did this same thing for the past 2 decades. America is doing the same. And the US is a much bigger country than Greece.

It's scary what medicine will become in the next 10 years in the US. We will truly have rationing of care, except for the very affluent. That's where I believe where we are going.
 
Great. Sounds like you're an attending nearing the end of your career, in academics, indepentently wealthy, or in the military. I guess a 21% cut doesn't hurt you, your employees, or your family. But for me and the majority of physicians this could ruin our lives. It's sad when physicians sell each other out and can't unite for the greater good.

You're an idiot. I drive a Ford Focus, have a $150K condo. Haven't been on vacation in 8 years. I also have $300K in student loan debt. Salaries don't have to drop if we don't let them. Your nonchalant attitude is what is going to kill this profession. I despise colleagues like you. I earn every penny I make. Money can be used to do a lot of good - not just buy luxury items like you suggest.

You're funny Dr.Robert. The reason you haven't been on vacation in 8 years is that you've just gotten out of school and training and had no money, not because you're destitute. :idea:
You call me an idiot and despise me? But, you're the one who said that a 21% pay cut will "ruin" the lives of the "majority" of physicians. Seriously? Do you believe the BS you're shoveling. Keep it based in reality and you might convince people. I don't sell anyone out, I've given to the ASAPAC for more than a DECADE. I call my congressmen's lackey and/or send out emails with the talking points EVERY time. I actually do this, I bet you never have.
Another thing I do is to live within my means, make smart investments, and have plans for the future if reimbursement goes down. And it will, no matter what. Maybe that's why you despise me? The best thing that you can do is follow that path. The average anesthesiologist makes about $350. That's what the data shows, many make far more. Even if we take a big hit with mcaid, obamacare, etc. We'll be fine, so will you. BTW, I know many anesthesiologists, and very few make much less than that, and they all choose to. I HATE what politicans are doing to medicine in the US, and to the US itself, but I've done my part, voting for the other guy, donations, etc. The games are not going to stop and the hard decisions are not going to be made anytime soon.
It's hard to be taken seriously crying poor when, even if you are below average, and take a 30% pay cut, and still alone, make 4 times the average family income in the USA. If you can't live well on $200k, you're doing something wrong. Seriously.
You need to lighten up, take a vacation, and buy a big screen.
PS $300k of debt is not much over a 25 or 30 year career, so don't expect a whole lot of pity. The politicians and the vast majority of Americans think that >$300k a year makes you rich, guess what? It does. You're in the top 2%, you ain't goin' to go hungry, EVER. You gave up a lot for this career, but I hope you didn't do it for the money. I took a 30% pay cut to follow my dreams and have a better life. I still, somehow on my pretty average income, manage to live WELL. If I lose another 30%, I'll still be earning FAR more than everyone else. Also, if you believe as I do that inflation is coming, debt is a good thing for you. It could dramatically decrease the value of what you owe.
PPS Academia and the military won't isolate you from anything. Salaries will go down across the board. When you retire it will be a very different America, and healthcare will likely be unrecognizable. Austerity is coming, 10 years, 20 years? Plan for it.
 
While money isn't everything, it does play a pretty big factor in which of the brighest minds go into medicine.

Just look at the AAMC data. I applied during the "absolute peak years" 1995-1996 year". There were over 46k applicants for 16k slots.

Than the Internet boom hit in the 1996-200 and look at the AAMC data. The applications for med school took a nose dive, down 10-12 percent. Than the Internet bust happened, and applicants rose again.

We live in a new age. You are going to lose your entire 20s being in school/residency with medicine. If the brightest minds know they will only get "x" salary at age 30. And the allied health worker gets paid "x salary -20% " what the MD is making. If the gap is so narrow in terms of salary but the education/risks levels are much higher for the MD, people will just look for another profession/career.

Just remember you have "executive secreatries" like Linda Tripp making close to $100k working for the federal government.

So money is still a big driving force of almost any profession.

But just remember those "average anesthesiologists" making $350k aren't working "average hours" or have "average liabilities" as the "average professional"

So making $200k is still a good income. But most MDs will take that salary if they get to work 35 hours a week, get 8 weeks paid vacation plus 2 weeks paid CME, plus get their medical education subsidized by the govt like they do in most other countries. My good friend is an anesthesiologist who trained in the US, practiced for 5 years in US and now has moved back to Romania. Those are his hours and benefits. He's used to working so hard in private practice in the US, he decided to open up his own MRI center in Romania and make more money since he's not working near as much as he did in the US. He comes from a very prominent political family there.

That's what it will come to in the next 20 years with medicine. If the docs salaries get cut so far, the brightest minds will go elsewhere. It takes 7-10 years just to train an MD. We are already facing a growing population.
 
The point is not that the caliber of physicians will not decline, as it likely will. Nor is it that the quality of healthcare as a whole will not decline, it will as well. The point is that modest cuts in compensation will not RUIN anyone, unless they were holding out for the pair of S classes in the drive at the summer beach house. Those plans went out some time ago. Obamacare is just speeding things along. Enjoy it while you can, and take a couple of nice vacations.😉
I wouldn't be taking any partnership track jobs longer than 2 years either.
 
I think that to fix the healthcare funding issue, which includes reimbursement as well as access and the cost of care, this country has to finally decide what we want. We can't fight two wars, outspend everyone on defense and play global policeman while at the same time promising a safety net for retired Americans, healthcare to those who need it and rational reimbursement to docs.

The fact is something that would kill a person twenty years ago is now treatable...at a cost. So yes our costs will continue to rise because our abilities are continuing to expand. We can cut waste, streamline and all that but at the end of the day the lions share of expenditure is a combination of the growing elderly pt population and the massive arsenal of life prolonging treatments we have for them.
 
So where are all the Republican Obama haters that frequent this forum? They have been conveniently silent on this issue. The Senate Republicans have decided to cut physician reimbursement by 21% and you still say they are on our side? What a joke.


Republican Obama haters
Present!
This whole thing is driving me crazy. I have to vent.


I think we are pawns in their game. Dummycrats are trying to screw us (and our patients) in the long term with Obamacare. Obamacare amounts to the goverment wanting a slice of our income (pre- and post tax), and control over our lives. Control over our lives in the sense of less freedom and liberty, but also the obvious meaning of limited access to healthcare. It is astounding, mind-boggling in the truest sense of the word, that anyone would give a government control over life and death decisions. Even a government of, for, and by the people!

Then, we have our our friends the G**D**** REPUBLICANS, who think it is ok to USE US to make a point that we CAN NOT AFFORD THE TAX DOLLARS TO PAY THE DOCTORS! If you can't afford to pay me, THEN GET THE H*** OUT OF THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS!!!!! But until you do, PAY ME WHAT I AM WORTH OR THINK OF ANOTHER SOLUTION!!!! Do not use me to make a point in the little war you helped create!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
People need to realize the economics of wars.

Wars stimulate economies. It stimulates job hiring. History has proven this time and time again.

Look at WW2. Massive job creation because of the great war.

The Cold War. Massive job creation. Look what what happened when it ended in 1988/89. There was a recession. Bush 41 took most of the blame. Housing prices dropped in 1989-1991 (especially in California). Defense contractors laid off hundreds of thousands of workers.

Bush 43 created this war for 2 reasons: 1. Revenge for Sadam But more importantly to look like he was stimulating the economy.

Look all the contractors that Haliburton/KBR, Shaw industry hires. These are blue collar jobs that pay $30-50K a year for people with just a high school education.

So we end the war on Terror. Defense contractors, and now counter intelligence companies will either downsize or start laying off hundreds of thousands of workers.

I know DC politics in/out. Have a lot of friends outside of medicine. They are very fearful and have big lobbying efforts to maintain their income. These people want to continue making six figures doing consulting work.

My wife's friend is a computer security expert. She's 29 years old with a college degree. She works for a big defense contractor. These wars that Bush allow her to get paid six figures. She likes wars. So do hundreds of thousands of workers like her.

So ending the war (to save money?) is a lot easier said than done.
 
???
I think that the "war" that he is referring to is Reps vs. Dems. in Congress.

Yes

And almost to prove my point, after the senate passes the bill, pelosi says the senate bill is not worth passing. We are pawns!!! No respect at all for what all this bickering does to us or our patients. On both sides.

And (way OT), Bush did not start the war to stimulate the economy. Do you really think some one would ask some one else to die to stimulate the economy? Obama is evil. Bush is not.
 
People need to realize the economics of wars.

Wars stimulate economies. It stimulates job hiring. History has proven this time and time again.

Look at WW2. Massive job creation because of the great war.

The Cold War. Massive job creation. Look what what happened when it ended in 1988/89. There was a recession. Bush 41 took most of the blame. Housing prices dropped in 1989-1991 (especially in California). Defense contractors laid off hundreds of thousands of workers.

Bush 43 created this war for 2 reasons: 1. Revenge for Sadam But more importantly to look like he was stimulating the economy.

Look all the contractors that Haliburton/KBR, Shaw industry hires. These are blue collar jobs that pay $30-50K a year for people with just a high school education.

So we end the war on Terror. Defense contractors, and now counter intelligence companies will either downsize or start laying off hundreds of thousands of workers.

I know DC politics in/out. Have a lot of friends outside of medicine. They are very fearful and have big lobbying efforts to maintain their income. These people want to continue making six figures doing consulting work.

My wife's friend is a computer security expert. She's 29 years old with a college degree. She works for a big defense contractor. These wars that Bush allow her to get paid six figures. She likes wars. So do hundreds of thousands of workers like her.

So ending the war (to save money?) is a lot easier said than done.

Wars are a hugely poor excuse of a way to stimulate an economy.

First, look at the nations NOT at war (Germany, Japan, China, South Korea, Indonesia, Taiwan). Sure, Germany's in Afgahnistan and I think the Indonesians have some terror fighting issues themselves, but not BIG wars as compared to the U.S. These economies are allowed to prosper precisely because they are NOT FINANCING expensive foreign campaigns. Look at the FORMER British Empire. Look at the USSR. We won the cold war out of attrition. They went bust, essentially. As do all nations that involve themselves in endless campaigns......

I love seeing "regular" dudes being able to make some cash, without some sort of advanced degree. But, those same guys could be working in industry if we had an industrial policy in this country, as our serious competition clearly does.

Wars may "stimulate" an economy in the near term for a very narrow segment of the population (gone are the days of churning out B17's and tanks from Ford and GM factories) these days. Oh, and they also get people killed and ruin lives..... Nice.

All that being said, I personally feel it's highly likely that we see a major war (probably with Iran, but I hope not) in the near future. I hope I'm wrong.
But, arguing for wars as a solution to an economic problem is like parading around bragging about how big our healthcare "industry" is. In the aggregate, these are both DRAINS on a nations wealth, though they do serve the interests of those involved, directly and indirectly.

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People need to realize the economics of wars.

Wars stimulate economies. It stimulates job hiring. History has proven this time and time again.

Look at WW2. Massive job creation because of the great war.

The Cold War. Massive job creation. Look what what happened when it ended in 1988/89. There was a recession. Bush 41 took most of the blame. Housing prices dropped in 1989-1991 (especially in California). Defense contractors laid off hundreds of thousands of workers.

Bush 43 created this war for 2 reasons: 1. Revenge for Sadam But more importantly to look like he was stimulating the economy.

Look all the contractors that Haliburton/KBR, Shaw industry hires. These are blue collar jobs that pay $30-50K a year for people with just a high school education.

So we end the war on Terror. Defense contractors, and now counter intelligence companies will either downsize or start laying off hundreds of thousands of workers.

I know DC politics in/out. Have a lot of friends outside of medicine. They are very fearful and have big lobbying efforts to maintain their income. These people want to continue making six figures doing consulting work.

My wife's friend is a computer security expert. She's 29 years old with a college degree. She works for a big defense contractor. These wars that Bush allow her to get paid six figures. She likes wars. So do hundreds of thousands of workers like her.

So ending the war (to save money?) is a lot easier said than done.

I don't know where to begin. Judging by your other posts you're a good anesthesiologist with some business sense ... but the above is absolute garbage.

To paraphrase another poster here, if wars are so great for the economy, why don't we just bomb the hell out of the Nevada desert? Why can't the government pay your wife's friend to write video game software? Hell, why don't we ALL work for the government doing random 'busy work' because surely then everyone would have a job and money is "circulating" through the economy?

I think Eisenhower had something to say about economies that were heavily dependent upon fighting wars.


And I'll leave with this.
 
This is why I previously proposed the Narc Instant Economic Recovery Package to end the recession/depression. It's quite simple. The act of walking to your mailbox, and collecting and cashing your check will be the "job" description for millions of new government "jobs" for everyone on welfare and unemployment. Those presently not collecting a check will be hired by the government under the NIERP and will "work" with the "job" of spotting UFO's. As soon as we label these above mindless activities as "jobs" we will then wipe out unemployment and be prosperous once again.

Before you laugh, this is exactly what "experts" in the media continue to tell us, that "jobs" that create and produce nothing (like census counting and blowing up stuff in war) will help strengthen and rebuild our economy. It is utterly insane what the masses are allowing themselves to believe.

Amen Narc and pgg.

You know, that's pretty much why I'm often such a skeptic (some might choose the word "conspirac"y-oriented..). I just can NOT bring myself to believe that said "experts" whom currently have center stage in government, media, and even parts of academia can be THAT friggin stupid. So, if they're not that friggin STUPID, then the total BS that comes out of their mouths is more likely than not to be intentionally misinformative.

Clearly, I hold the misinformers to a higher standard than the misinformed (sitting ducks).

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I just can NOT bring myself to believe that said "experts" whom currently have center stage in government, media, and even parts of academia can be THAT friggin stupid.

There's nothing stupid about people who are efficiently, cynically getting theirs while the getting is good.
 
There's nothing stupid about people who are efficiently, cynically getting theirs while the getting is good.

I agree, they are NOT so stupid, as previously stated. But, many such individuals (in government, media, large banking institutions) have a FIDUCIARY responsibility to the public at large. So, it's not just o.k.

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