WUSTL vs JHU

[ponyo]

First of all, I have been and remain shocked at the amazing opportunities I've been given and am completely excited and grateful. That being said, the decision is still going to be tough and I would appreciate any of your inputs. Thank you in advance!!!

I've heard back from a number of schools and it comes down to WUSTL and JHU. When I was interviewing I told my interviewers I am interested in neurosurgery. I know how that sounds... but my background has always been in neuro and even if I turn out to hate surgery more than expected, I would at least want to be in neurology. You gotta give your dreams a chance right?

Here are my thoughts so far:

COST - I have a full tuition scholarship at Wash U; don't know how financial aid will look at Hopkins. I have a job, but my parents are not well-off, so maybe it won't be too bad. Regardless, I will not need to take out substantial loans for Wash U and that is a huge plus. The cost factor is magnified by the fact that I am not from the United States and still want the option of practicing abroad after residency, which would be difficult with loans. I am also generally commitment phobic in terms of area of focus in the long term and I would love to have financial freedom for that reason.

LOCATION - I have no friends/family in the midwest and my aging parents live in the DC area, so location-wise JHU would be a definite win. I grew up in a developing country inner city known for gang crime, so am fine with Baltimore. (I am a Steelers fan though :/ )

NEURO - Clearly JHU has a great neurosurgery residency and I would love to have a shot at that. I am also interested in hearing any opinions around how much that would actually benefit my experiences in medical school, if at all. I've thought about specific research topics but really haven't narrowed down to anything, so that hasn't been helpful.

OTHER OPPORTUNITIES - I love public health and would love to take advantage of Bloomberg. I am also interested in global health opportunities but haven't investigated into it. I feel that it is the kind of thing that I would be able to get at either place if I put my mind to it, and my interviewers at both places assured me that there is funding available for such endeavors.

ATMOSPHERE - I deal well with stress and although I'm not competitive by nature, I'm also not bothered by competitiveness in others. I loved both campuses and the students I met at both schools. Although I felt that I was more "like" the Hopkins students, I think I would be happy either way.

I hope that all makes sense and please let me know if I've missed any major must-consider factors. Thanks so much guys

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[trino]

Unless you don't feel that you can succeed at WashU, I think the cost aspect trumps all of the information you gave. It doesn't matter so much for neurosurgery. While residency might be tough paying back loans, the starting salary will allow you to pay it back quick. However, if surgery turns out to not be your thing and you go into neurology, it will be very helpful to not have loans to repay.

I think that WashU and Hopkins are such big powerhouses that the opportunities will be similar

Here's the kicker: from my recollection, Hopkins (along with most other top schools) have a higher rate of inbreeding for residency. Going to Hopkins would definitely give you a better chance at going there for residency. But...do you need to go to Hopkins for residency? Is it worth all the debt to have a slightly better shot? You could definitely match there from WashU. Also, MGH, Barrow, and others are all excellent programs.

My vote comes down to the best financial decision.

 

[troioi91]

.

 

[ponyo]

First, congrats on your amazing acceptances! Although you seem to like JHU slightly more, it sounds like the "difference" in how much you like each school is marginal. Granted, if you hated WUSTL and nothing would make you attend, that would be a different story. I would just go with the cheaper option in that case. I think the biggest missing piece is your JHU financial aid. I'd wait a bit for that. I'm sure that WUSTL students match into excellent residencies too, so I wouldn't discount getting into your dream residency by "settling" for your full-tuition option instead. Any thoughts on curriculum/learning style?

Thank you for your reply! I agree with you.. I love both schools but JHU by some incremental amount, and I just have no idea how much that is worth

I'm a really independent learner who mostly learns from books, so I'm not sure whether the curriculum will make a difference. But I'm open to the possibility that it might be more important than it was in undergrad.

 

[troioi91]

Easy!

x == (how much you like JHU) - (how much you like WUSTL)
y == (cost of attendance at JHU) - (cost of living at WUSTL) <-- appx. $200k plus interest right now, but not too sure

If x > y, choose JHU.
If x < y, choose WUSTL.

But you don't really know what JHU cost of attendance is currently, right? Maybe it's just a waiting game.

 

[ponyo]

Easy!

x == (how much you like JHU) - (how much you like WUSTL)
y == (cost of attendance at JHU) - (cost of living at WUSTL) <-- appx. $200k plus interest right now, but not too sure

If x > y, choose JHU.
If x < y, choose WUSTL.

But you don't really know what JHU cost of attendance is currently, right? Maybe it's just a waiting game.

I agree with your formula, but x is exactly what I am trying to figure out. It's hard to pin a monetary value on intuition alone, so that's why I'm trying to gather more data...

 

[Psai]

It sounds like you want to be at Johns Hopkins. Good luck

 

[hopefulMD12]

You want to go to Hopkins, so do it!

 

[pyrrion89]

If you have a modest background, JHU financial aid is going to be sweet. So, assuming that, the full-tuition scholarship at WashU is not all that game-changing (especially since it is not a full ride, i.e., your living expenses remain). Pick JHU unless the financial aid turns out horrible or if you really like WashU over JHU (e.g., student life, location, etc.)

 

[fingerscrossed92]

I have nothing significant to contribute to your decision but just wanted to say dang!! You are a powerhouse! Whichever choice you make will still be a great one so I wouldn't worry TOO much about it

 

[dyspareunia]

1. Crime is worse in STL than Baltimore.
2. Find out how many JHU students JHU actually takes for residency. I've found that the better/best residency programs are less inclined to "reserve" spaces for their own students (compared to lesser residency programs) because they know they'll be getting the best applicants from around the country. In other words, going to JHU might not give you a significantly better shot at JHU neurosurg compared to WashU. Plus, chances are you won't even want neurosurg in 3-4 years.
3. How "aged" are your parents? Prioritizing family is great, but if you're going to continue being a top-notch student you're going to have to make some sacrifices in the non-med school department. If being within driving distance of your family is going to distract you (e.g. spending hours taking care of a sick parent) you might consider going to WashU. Again, think about your priorities and how they are going to affect your performance in school. I'll probably get flamed for even saying that, but you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't consider it.
4. I personally would attend WashU unless JHU offers a scholarship that nearly matches WashU. Don't know the differences in COA, but STL is a relatively cheap city to live in.

 

[orthos]

My vote goes to Johns Hopkins.

The scholarship offer from the other school is a wonderful opportunity, and it's true that you must make sacrifices outside of medicine, but consider how your happiness (and, in turn, productivity) will be affected by your decisions. Having a full-ride scholarship does not mean anything if your performance is being affected due to your overall state of mind. If you can see yourself happy and productive in both locations, take the money and run!

 

[ponyo]

I have nothing significant to contribute to your decision but just wanted to say dang!! You are a powerhouse! Whichever choice you make will still be a great one so I wouldn't worry TOO much about it

Thanks! I feel incredibly lucky and will definitely happy wherever I go. It's just too much money to wrap my head around...

1. Crime is worse in STL than Baltimore.
2. Find out how many JHU students JHU actually takes for residency. I've found that the better/best residency programs are less inclined to "reserve" spaces for their own students (compared to lesser residency programs) because they know they'll be getting the best applicants from around the country. In other words, going to JHU might not give you a significantly better shot at JHU neurosurg compared to WashU. Plus, chances are you won't even want neurosurg in 3-4 years.
3. How "aged" are your parents? Prioritizing family is great, but if you're going to continue being a top-notch student you're going to have to make some sacrifices in the non-med school department. If being within driving distance of your family is going to distract you (e.g. spending hours taking care of a sick parent) you might consider going to WashU. Again, think about your priorities and how they are going to affect your performance in school. I'll probably get flamed for even saying that, but you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't consider it.
4. I personally would attend WashU unless JHU offers a scholarship that nearly matches WashU. Don't know the differences in COA, but STL is a relatively cheap city to live in.

Supposedly JHU residency is incestuous, but like you said I don't think I should bank on even trying for that. It is totally conceivable that I could want to be a PCP in a few years, or at least a hem-onc or something that offers longitudinal patient care. I think that my parents are a high priority now because I'm afraid my mother will have Alzheimers and I'll regret not spending more time with her, and because I doubt I'll have any time during residency. That's a personal thing but I appreciate you bringing it up so frankly!

My vote goes to Johns Hopkins.

The scholarship offer from the other school is a wonderful opportunity, and it's true that you must make sacrifices outside of medicine, but consider how your happiness (and, in turn, productivity) will be affected by your decisions. Having a full-ride scholarship does not mean anything if your performance is being affected due to your overall state of mind. If you can see yourself happy and productive in both locations, take the money and run!

I'm from a poor background so I think compared to other people it's easier for me to keep "perspective" and feel lucky to just be able to pursue medicine. So maybe the incremental happiness is not worth the money...

Thanks everyone for your input! I should hear back from JHU's financial aid office soon. Still torn but thanks for all the food for thought!

 

[NisslBody]

I have a close friend who had to make literally this same decision. She also had a full tuition to WashU and nothing from JHU. In the end, she had decided that she was interested in pursing a public health degree and chose JHU. The name recognition among the lay world also was something strongly considered.

To conclude the story, she did not end up doing the MPH at Hopkins as she felt that she would be more interested in pursuing it after her fellowship. This person is now doing the top residency available in her field and graduated AOA from JHU.

Perhaps the main difference between her story and your potential story is that this person had a family that was willing and able to afford JHU.

I'm not sure how much my post will help you, but hopefully it's worth something!

 

[pyrrion89]

this person is now doing the top residency available in her field and graduated AOA from JHU.

 

[totoro89]

It sounds like you want to be at Hopkins, and really I hope their financial aid office will come through for you! Regardless, I'm sure you're going to do great at either school. I'm not really convinced when people say to go to the school that will make you "happier" so that you can perform at your best. If you're generally a positive person, I think you're going to adjust and end up happy wherever you go.

I'm also deciding between two schools with a significant difference in cost, with the more expensive school giving very little aid. I like the location, curriculum, and opportunities at the $$$ school a lot more, but after some more thought, it's not like the cheaper school is going to hold me back. And zero loans will ultimately give me the best flexibility in choosing a specialty. I (along with most people in their 20's) don't know what I'm going to want in the future, and I may be a very different person with different goals and priorities 4 years from now. Getting stuck with $100k+ loans would also make it a lot harder to support my parents/own family (if I decide to start one, which again...unsure, but leave the option there). Hope this helps.

 

[Instatewaiter]

DO NOT GIVE UP A FULL RIDE!

If nothing else, tell JHH that you got a full ride from WUSTL and put pressure on them.

 

[DermViser]

First of all, I have been and remain shocked at the amazing opportunities I've been given and am completely excited and grateful. That being said, the decision is still going to be tough and I would appreciate any of your inputs. Thank you in advance!!!

I've heard back from a number of schools and it comes down to WUSTL and JHU. When I was interviewing I told my interviewers I am interested in neurosurgery. I know how that sounds... but my background has always been in neuro and even if I turn out to hate surgery more than expected, I would at least want to be in neurology. You gotta give your dreams a chance right?

Here are my thoughts so far:

COST - I have a full tuition scholarship at Wash U; don't know how financial aid will look at Hopkins. I have a job, but my parents are not well-off, so maybe it won't be too bad. Regardless, I will not need to take out substantial loans for Wash U and that is a huge plus. The cost factor is magnified by the fact that I am not from the United States and still want the option of practicing abroad after residency, which would be difficult with loans. I am also generally commitment phobic in terms of area of focus in the long term and I would love to have financial freedom for that reason.

LOCATION - I have no friends/family in the midwest and my aging parents live in the DC area, so location-wise JHU would be a definite win. I grew up in a developing country inner city known for gang crime, so am fine with Baltimore. (I am a Steelers fan though :/ )

NEURO - Clearly JHU has the best neurosurgery residency and I would love to have a shot at that. I am also interested in hearing any opinions around how much that would actually benefit my experiences in medical school, if at all. I've thought about specific research topics but really haven't narrowed down to anything, so that hasn't been helpful.

OTHER OPPORTUNITIES - I love public health and would love to take advantage of Bloomberg. I am also interested in global health opportunities but haven't investigated into it. I feel that it is the kind of thing that I would be able to get at either place if I put my mind to it, and my interviewers at both places assured me that there is funding available for such endeavors.

ATMOSPHERE - I deal well with stress and although I'm not competitive by nature, I'm also not bothered by competitiveness in others. I loved both campuses and the students I met at both schools. Although I felt that I was more "like" the Hopkins students, I think I would be happy either way.

I hope that all makes sense and please let me know if I've missed any major must-consider factors. Thanks so much guys

To keep it simple, WashU hands down, due to full tuition scholarship and your parents not being well-off. You have no assurance of matching neurosurgery, much less wanting neurosurgery 4 years from now.

 

[1Sail0r]

OP. The answer is simple. The obvious choice given your situation is WUSTL, but yet you're keeping this thread going because you're hoping someone will convince you to go to JHU. That's what you really want. You're gonna make enough money regardless to pay off the debt, so just go to JHU! It's where you'll be happy obviously.

 

[jturkel]

congrats on such great schools....shame baltimore and st louis are up there among the worst cities in the US not named detroit

but fwiw, with these schools, follow the money. sure it's hopkins, but wash u is great too

 

[jturkel]

oh also...JHH doesn't have the best neurosurgery residency. The best one is Barrow Neurological Institute in Phx, AZ (the "Disneyland for neurosurgeons" but good luck getting in there without a gold medal and nobel peace prize)....and AOA from Hopkins won't guarantee that, whether AOA from Hopkins is possible or not

 

[Instatewaiter]

Look we're not talking about the difference between some schleppy DO school and JHH... we are talking about two very similarly regarded medical schools- one of which IS FREE. You are not going to have markedly different outcomes or opportunities coming from one of these schools.

 

[Asperphys]

I'll echo what everyone else is saying in that there is no guarantee that you will get AOA at either school, nor will you end up pursuing an MPH or still want to do neurosurgery in the next 4 years, so just take it one day at a time. You cannot choose based on how you think you'll do as an MS3 or 4.

You sound like you want to go to JHU, so go there. If you feel that it's a better fit for you, then go to your dream school. You'll go through med school only once (ideally) and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. If you really LOVE JHU, I'm sure you won't resent paying back a quarter million in loans when you graduate. Med school is tough enough as it is. If you start off being happy where you are, you'll do better. I personally think no amount of money can substitute for a positive frame of mind when tackling the rigors of medical school. Pursue what you love and you will do well. Good luck!

 

[ChEMD]

There are no certainties in life. In all likelihood, if you choose John's Hopkins, you will graduate, finish a residency, become an attending, and be able to pay back your loans. However, there is a chance that something may happen, and for whatever reason you can't finish med school or maybe residency, and then what. You're sitting there with 200k+ in loans and your original way to pay them back no longer exists.

You have the opportunity to get a world class education for FREE, and yet you're thinking about turning that down for what, a name? Now if there were significant family issues tying you to once place that would be different, but from your post it doesn't seem like that is the primary motivator, but rather one more thing to add to the pros column to justify the real reason you want to choose Hopkins. As far as the neurosurgery residency program goes, you aren't in any position to be able to say what program is the best, or even what makes a good program for that matter. Both schools will open up the opportunity to get into any program in the country. So in the end, unless family is your primary concern, don't turn down the free, highly regarded education just for a name.

 

[Asperphys]

There are no certainties in life. In all likelihood, if you choose John's Hopkins, you will graduate, finish a residency, become an attending, and be able to pay back your loans. However, there is a chance that something may happen, and for whatever reason you can't finish med school or maybe residency, and then what. You're sitting there with 200k+ in loans and your original way to pay them back no longer exists.

You have the opportunity to get a world class education for FREE, and yet you're thinking about turning that down for what, a name? Now if there were significant family issues tying you to once place that would be different, but from your post it doesn't seem like that is the primary motivator, but rather one more thing to add to the pros column to justify the real reason you want to choose Hopkins. As far as the neurosurgery residency program goes, you aren't in any position to be able to say what program is the best, or even what makes a good program for that matter. Both schools will open up the opportunity to get into any program in the country. So in the end, unless family is your primary concern, don't turn down the free, highly regarded education just for a name.

To be fair to the OP, he got into both WashU and JHU. I suspect he/she is a highly motivated individual whose risk of dropping out of med school or residency is less than the average med student. OP also said that JHU just seemed to be a better fit. I'm sure that doesn't just mean it has better name recognition-- it indicates a whole bunch of intangibles that are counteracting the draw of a full scholarship. Unless they can CONVINCE themselves that they'd be happy with the coldly rational choice of a free ride through a reputable med school in lieu of what they have fallen in love with, they might end up miserable in med school and not do as well, resulting in poor performance and a ****ty residency. Not everyone is wired to be THAT positive. Currently, I have all the indications that OP wants to follow his/her heart.

 

[ChEMD]

To be fair to the OP, he got into both WashU and JHU. I suspect he/she is a highly motivated individual whose risk of dropping out of med school or residency is less than the average med student. OP also said that JHU just seemed to be a better fit. I'm sure that doesn't just mean it has better name recognition-- it indicates a whole bunch of intangibles that are counteracting the draw of a full scholarship. Unless they can CONVINCE themselves that they'd be happy with the coldly rational choice of a free ride through a reputable med school in lieu of what they have fallen in love with, they might end up miserable in med school and not do as well, resulting in poor performance and a ****** residency. Not everyone is wired to be THAT positive. Currently, I have all the indications that OP wants to follow his/her heart.

This whole "feel" and "vibe" thing that people talk about so much when describing their interviews is so silly. In all reality, you interact with a very small subset of the current student body, and the majority of the other people interviewing won't be attending that school. These two things can completely change the feel of a school, and they're not even truly representative of your future experience. At every school, there will be people you get along with and people that you have less in common with and don't talk to much. But the point is, you will make friends wherever you go, and if you don't, it's probably not a problem with the composition of the student body, but more likely a problem with you.

Now one thing that the that people should definitely take into consideration is the curriculum at different schools. This can have a huge impact on your med school experience. However, the OP didn't emphasize this at all, so I'm assuming it's not even a factor he/she's considering.

Do I think it's important to be happy during med school? Yes. But you can be happy at any school that you go to. The only things I can think of that could change that are distance from family/friends, curriculum structure, and cost (although you won't really feel this one until after you graduate). I really don't think people should be deciding based on subjective factors from their interview day because your actual medical school experience doesn't necessarily correlate with the "vibe" that you get while spending a day with a few students that go to that school.

Edit: I suppose another factor is the type of city the school is in (small town vs big city, climate, etc...) but this isn't really an argument in the OP's case.

 

[neilpryde21]

I find it kind of funny how chEMD is saying the OP should go to WUSTL while Asperphys is saying the OP should go to JHU but Asperphys is an MS4 at WUSTL (and previously said he/she really enjoyed it there, right?).

 

[Asperphys]

I find it kind of funny how chEMD is saying the OP should go to WUSTL while Asperphys is saying the OP should go to JHU but Asperphys is an MS4 at WUSTL (and previously said he/she really enjoyed it there, right?).

And I do still LOVE WashU. They got me my #1 for residency and I will likely keep giving them money when I'm an attending to keep that endowment nice and fat. The decision to come to WashU was a no-brainer for me-- the student culture was a good fit, very strong department in my field of research, plus admin and faculty that bends over backwards to accommodate us. Plus I did not like JHU when I interviewed there. HOWEVER, I recognize that WashU isn't for everyone and I am supportive of other people's preferences.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Look we're not talking about the difference between some schleppy DO school and JHH... we are talking about two very similarly regarded medical schools- one of which IS FREE. You are not going to have markedly different outcomes or opportunities coming from one of these schools.

$250,000 turns into about $500,000 with interest. This is excluding the forbearance that you will have to go through during your 7 year residency in NS which actually adds to the principle of the loan. In the end, you're probably paying close to 600K for a comparable education.

Do not discount this because you will make money in the future. My wife has 180K from law school loans. Despite the fact that she is a lawyer and makes much, much more than my fellow's salary, her loans are a major financial burden for us. Per month, her loans cost as much as the mortgage for our 4 bedroom house. I cannot even imagine what I would do if I had 180K of loans and didn't have her six figure salary.

 

[Asperphys]

This whole "feel" and "vibe" thing that people talk about so much when describing their interviews is so silly. In all reality, you interact with a very small subset of the current student body, and the majority of the other people interviewing won't be attending that school. These two things can completely change the feel of a school, and they're not even truly representative of your future experience. At every school, there will be people you get along with and people that you have less in common with and don't talk to much. But the point is, you will make friends wherever you go, and if you don't, it's probably not a problem with the composition of the student body, but more likely a problem with you.

Now one thing that the that people should definitely take into consideration is the curriculum at different schools. This can have a huge impact on your med school experience. However, the OP didn't emphasize this at all, so I'm assuming it's not even a factor he/she's considering.

Do I think it's important to be happy during med school? Yes. But you can be happy at any school that you go to. The only things I can think of that could change that are distance from family/friends, curriculum structure, and cost (although you won't really feel this one until after you graduate). I really don't think people should be deciding based on subjective factors from their interview day because your actual medical school experience doesn't necessarily correlate with the "vibe" that you get while spending a day with a few students that go to that school.

Edit: I suppose another factor is the type of city the school is in (small town vs big city, climate, etc...) but this isn't really an argument in the OP's case.

I'd be careful about dismissing the "vibe" and "feel" thing as something silly. In the end, I chose my med school and my residency based on the "vibe" thing. Everyone puts on as good a show as they can when you interview. But they cannot help let little subtle things slip out. If you have good intuition, you'll pick these gems out and integrate them into your rational decision making. Yes, you cannot sample the entire student body when you visit, but you should be able to sense the dominant culture from a tiny snippet you see. As an MS1, I was happy to see that my favorite people on the premed interview trail also chose WashU. We were drawn by the exact same "vibe." And it's not just the students either. If you're really paying attention, you will also get a sense of how supportive the faculty is and if they're on your "wavelength". This has tremendous importance later when you're trying to get LORs for residency applications. If the faculty don't "get" you and you're constantly misunderstood or misconstrued during your clerkships, where the grading is largely subjective, you are screwed.

Now OP got good "vibes" from JHU-- an indication that he/she will work well with the students there, get along with the faculty and do great during clerkships. It's a promising set-up for doing well and matching to a great residency eventually. Plus, they'll be HAPPY. Being depressed and regretting your decision because you took the money is just gonna get in the way of doing well in med school. And just because YOU will be happy ANYWHERE doesn't mean OP will be too. And you can't say she/he's got a problem just because they cannot be equally happy everywhere. That's not fair.

I agree that you will likely find people you get along with and people you don't anywhere. But wouldn't you rather be in a place where MOST of the people are ones you liked, who understand and appreciate your background, who you can GENUINELY be friends with?

I disagree about the curriculum thing. I doubt anyone can tell if either the curriculum at WashU or JHU is better. I'm sure OP will do great with either, that's why it's not an issue. OP also mentioned JHU is closer to family.

So yeah, the price of a medical education is daunting. Personally, I feel fortunate not to have crushing debt follow me into residency. But I've encountered so many people (attendings included) who took the full ride to a compromise school instead of going to the school they really wanted. It substantial enough that it shapes who they are for the rest of their lives-- they often open conversations with "I could have gone to XX super-awesome school but chose to go to YY for the money." Granted, choosing JHU vs WashU objectively seems a bit like choosing between brown vs white eggs at this point. You'd think, what's the big deal? The white eggs are FREE! But in OP's mind, the brown eggs taste like they're loaded with caviar and truffles. We can't taste it, but he/she can. It's so good in fact, that it's worth quarter to half a million in loans. So who are we to judge that decision?

Being an aspiring neurosurgeon, OP hopefully has the personality required to survive surgical training, i.e. defer the comforts that his peers enjoy in exchange for a career that really drives him/her. In that case, working like a dog and living in a sh*thole apartment instead of a 4 bedroom house in order to pay off loans is hardly a deterrent for them. So, if OP fully understands all these, and still wants to go to JHU, I say we should stop making him/her feel ****ty about it.

 

[pyrrion89]

$250,000 turns into about $500,000 with interest. This is excluding the forbearance that you will have to go through during your 7 year residency in NS which actually adds to the principle of the loan. In the end, you're probably paying close to 600K for a comparable education.

Do not discount this because you will make money in the future. My wife has 180K from law school loans. Despite the fact that she is a lawyer and makes much, much more than my fellow's salary, her loans are a major financial burden for us. Per month, her loans cost as much as the mortgage for our 4 bedroom house. I cannot even imagine what I would do if I had 180K of loans and didn't have her six figure salary.

The $500k figure is only true under a standard repayment plan in which you forbear during residency (a bad idea). If you do 7 years of residency, just take Income-Based Repayments during residency! Because you will make only $50k/yr as a resident for 7 years, and you will be working in public service, you are eligible for the PSLF version of IBR. Look this up if this sounds like letter-garble. Under IBR you only need to make payments on your loans for 10 years and the rest is forgiven. You'd only end up having to pay $400-$600/mo during residency on your loans, then, only 3 more years of repayment as an attending. I ran this through the AAMC calculator for you because I'm such a nice guy.

Assuming 250k debt at graduation with 7 years of residency without forbearance and WITH PSLF IBR program payments for 10 years after graduation, and an estimated yearly salary of $550,000/yr as a neurosurgeon for the first 3 years of his career on average, you would end up with $576,000 debt after all the interest, but in reality you will be forgiven about $301,785, so you only really ended up paying $274,000 on a $250,000 initial debt. That is insanely good! This assumes, however, that PSLF IBR will exist as it does now, 10 years from now. For whatever reason the calculator is saying it's a 21-yr repayment under IBR which does confuse the hell out of me, since IBR is a 10-yr repayment plan, so you may want to look into that some more.

This program is just amazing... almost too good to be true, so I'd be worried the government will get rid of it when they realize just how much money they are losing from this. But hey, maybe even if they do axe it, they will grandfather people who already signed up for it.

Edit: IBR is especially useful for programs with long residencies, since you will be eligible for low monthly debt repayments due to your long period of low income as a resident, and during these low-payback years you are still knocking out your 10-year debt repayment plan. But as DermViser said, one does not simply match into neurosurgery, so it is highly risky to assume you will match into it. While IBR will help you out too in a non-competitive short-residency specialty, the forgiveness will be a lot less. While I said earlier to go to JHU, you should seriously reconsider. GO TO WASHU. The people who would choose JHU over a scholarship to WashU are---to be frank---prestige ****** who have no sense of the value of a dollar (and/or their parents/trust fund are fronting the cost). If IBR or your match does not end up working, you could expect to pay back $500k or more on your debt. No sane, middle-class person could ever justify paying 500k of their own cashfor the negligible extra prestige of JHU. Hell, the average Joe probably thinks "Princeton Med" is more prestigious than JHU because Princeton is an Ivy. tl;dr - Even with IBR, JHU is not worth the price

 

[ChEMD]

I'd be careful about dismissing the "vibe" and "feel" thing as something silly. In the end, I chose my med school and my residency based on the "vibe" thing. Everyone puts on as good a show as they can when you interview. But they cannot help let little subtle things slip out. If you have good intuition, you'll pick these gems out and integrate them into your rational decision making. Yes, you cannot sample the entire student body when you visit, but you should be able to sense the dominant culture from a tiny snippet you see. As an MS1, I was happy to see that my favorite people on the premed interview trail also chose WashU. We were drawn by the exact same "vibe." And it's not just the students either. If you're really paying attention, you will also get a sense of how supportive the faculty is and if they're on your "wavelength". This has tremendous importance later when you're trying to get LORs for residency applications. If the faculty don't "get" you and you're constantly misunderstood or misconstrued during your clerkships, where the grading is largely subjective, you are screwed.

Now OP got good "vibes" from JHU-- an indication that he/she will work well with the students there, get along with the faculty and do great during clerkships. It's a promising set-up for doing well and matching to a great residency eventually. Plus, they'll be HAPPY. Being depressed and regretting your decision because you took the money is just gonna get in the way of doing well in med school. And just because YOU will be happy ANYWHERE doesn't mean OP will be too. And you can't say she/he's got a problem just because they cannot be equally happy everywhere. That's not fair.

I agree that you will likely find people you get along with and people you don't anywhere. But wouldn't you rather be in a place where MOST of the people are ones you liked, who understand and appreciate your background, who you can GENUINELY be friends with?

I disagree about the curriculum thing. I doubt anyone can tell if either the curriculum at WashU or JHU is better. I'm sure OP will do great with either, that's why it's not an issue. OP also mentioned JHU is closer to family.

So yeah, the price of a medical education is daunting. Personally, I feel fortunate not to have crushing debt follow me into residency. But I've encountered so many people (attendings included) who took the full ride to a compromise school instead of going to the school they really wanted. It substantial enough that it shapes who they are for the rest of their lives-- they often open conversations with "I could have gone to XX super-awesome school but chose to go to YY for the money." Granted, choosing JHU vs WashU objectively seems a bit like choosing between brown vs white eggs at this point. You'd think, what's the big deal? The white eggs are FREE! But in OP's mind, the brown eggs taste like they're loaded with caviar and truffles. We can't taste it, but he/she can. It's so good in fact, that it's worth quarter to half a million in loans. So who are we to judge that decision?

Being an aspiring neurosurgeon, OP hopefully has the personality required to survive surgical training, i.e. defer the comforts that his peers enjoy in exchange for a career that really drives him/her. In that case, working like a dog and living in a sh*thole apartment instead of a 4 bedroom house in order to pay off loans is hardly a deterrent for them. So, if OP fully understands all these, and still wants to go to JHU, I say we should stop making him/her feel ****** about it.

I guess we have to just agree to disagree. I just don't think an interview day is a large enough sample size to really judge how happy you'd be at a school. I'd much rather choose a school based off of objective criteria like tuition, curriculum, distance from family, type of city, etc...and not "did I get along with the small subset of people that I met". Also about the curriculum, I meant more in terms of a lecture-based school vs PBL, 1 year vs 1.5 year vs year preclinicals, etc, which is definitely something you can know and think about before attending a school.

I don't think anyone was trying to make the OP feel bad. I just wanted to throw some other factors to think about and really stress the real worth of a full tuition scholarship.

 

[Asperphys]

I guess we have to just agree to disagree. I just don't think an interview day is a large enough sample size to really judge how happy you'd be at a school. I'd much rather choose a school based off of objective criteria like tuition, curriculum, distance from family, type of city, etc...and not "did I get along with the small subset of people that I met". Also about the curric
ulum, I meant more in terms of a lecture-based school vs PBL, 1 year vs 1.5 year vs year preclinicals, etc, which is definitely something you can know and think about before attending a school.

I don't think anyone was trying to make the OP feel bad. I just wanted to throw some other factors to think about and really stress the real worth of a full tuition scholarship.

I guess we are just gonna have to disagree because I'm struggling to make you see this from my perspective. I did not say "vibe"="did I get along with the people I met at the interview." If that were true then I had good vibes EVERYWHERE. I did however, keep referring to "culture" which you can determine based on what people are passionate about, what they talk about over lunch, even what TV shows they follow. I personally like a healthy dose of "geek". When I was a premed, the WashU MS4 who led us on the interview tour was the kind of guy who liked the outdoors, lifted weights and can articulate the significance of the photoelectric effect. Point I'm trying to make is that he was comfortable "geeking out', which I took as an indication of what kind of culture they had. This is in contrast to another school where the senior talked about how much fun it was to be "gooning the nerds" during frat pledge week. I don't need to poll every single person to be able to tell that WashU had a geekier culture than the latter.

Besides tuition (no one wants to pay more if they can help it), even your objective criteria are subject to modifications based on subjective preferences. Say you have a person who wants to stay close to family, and likes a big city. Say, they're from New York, would that mean they'd easily choose SUNY Downstate over Mt. Sinai, Columbia, Weill-Cornell, NYU or Einstein based on the tuition? As for PBL vs lecture-based, I have not seen definitive data that one is better than the other. In that case, would it not be up to the student's preference if they learn better from lectures vs PBL?

My bad, I might have overstated "making the OP feel bad". But going back to the value of a full-tuition scholarship. I'm gonna argue that this again is subject to preference. In academia, there is this concept of "cultural capital"-- in essence, the projected monetary value of academic status. Crudely speaking, someone who went to Harvard for undergrad, HMS for med school and did their residency at MGH has a **** ton of cultural capital. And it's largely subjective because they don't necessarily make more money than others who do not have that pedigree. You can exchange the value of a full-tuition for greater cultural capital, and you'd be willing to do this if you want an academic career or some permutation of a competitive track. The subtlety of the OPs dilemma lies in the fact that based on objective data (match lists, step 1/2 scores, dangerous city etc) JHU and WashU are not that different. However, the intangibles and subjective impressions the OP had tip the scale to JHU. Based on their strong preference, I'd say choosing JHU over WashU+full tuition is a reasonable choice to make because they attributed far more cultural capital to JHU than WashU.

 

[ChEMD]

I guess we are just gonna have to disagree because I'm struggling to make you see this from my perspective. I did not say "vibe"="did I get along with the people I met at the interview." If that were true then I had good vibes EVERYWHERE. I did however, keep referring to "culture" which you can determine based on what people are passionate about, what they talk about over lunch, even what TV shows they follow. I personally like a healthy dose of "geek". When I was a premed, the WashU MS4 who led us on the interview tour was the kind of guy who liked the outdoors, lifted weights and can articulate the significance of the photoelectric effect. Point I'm trying to make is that he was comfortable "geeking out', which I took as an indication of what kind of culture they had. This is in contrast to another school where the senior talked about how much fun it was to be "gooning the nerds" during frat pledge week. I don't need to poll every single person to be able to tell that WashU had a geekier culture than the latter.

Besides tuition (no one wants to pay more if they can help it), even your objective criteria are subject to modifications based on subjective preferences. Say you have a person who wants to stay close to family, and likes a big city. Say, they're from New York, would that mean they'd easily choose SUNY Downstate over Mt. Sinai, Columbia, Weill-Cornell, NYU or Einstein based on the tuition? As for PBL vs lecture-based, I have not seen definitive data that one is better than the other. In that case, would it not be up to the student's preference if they learn better from lectures vs PBL?

My bad, I might have overstated "making the OP feel bad". But going back to the value of a full-tuition scholarship. I'm gonna argue that this again is subject to preference. In academia, there is this concept of "cultural capital"-- in essence, the projected monetary value of academic status. Crudely speaking, someone who went to Harvard for undergrad, HMS for med school and did their residency at MGH has a **** ton of cultural capital. And it's largely subjective because they don't necessarily make more money than others who do not have that pedigree. You can exchange the value of a full-tuition for greater cultural capital, and you'd be willing to do this if you want an academic career or some permutation of a competitive track. The subtlety of the OPs dilemma lies in the fact that based on objective data (match lists, step 1/2 scores, dangerous city etc) JHU and WashU are not that different. However, the intangibles and subjective impressions the OP had tip the scale to JHU. Based on their strong preference, I'd say choosing JHU over WashU+full tuition is a reasonable choice to make because they attributed far more cultural capital to JHU than WashU.

I'm not sure why you need me to understand your point lol. The OP asked for people's opinions and I gave mine. No need to convince me of anything.

 

[Instatewaiter]

During interview day a school is putting on the best face they can. They surround you by people who are happy there and keep those who aren't away from the interview crowd. Getting a good vibe from the good face the school was putting on doesn't necessarily mean you will be happy there or work well with the people. Also, everyone comes into med school (especially those from JHU and WUSTL) at the top of their class. Half of those people will be at the bottom half of the class. Again a vibe and being happy doesn't mean much.

Well that's a pretty expensive vibe: 5 hours during your interview for $250K

Being an aspiring neurosurgeon, OP hopefully has the personality required to survive surgical training, i.e. defer the comforts that his peers enjoy in exchange for a career that really drives him/her. In that case, working like a dog and living in a sh*thole apartment instead of a 4 bedroom house in order to pay off loans is hardly a deterrent for them. So, if OP fully understands all these, and still wants to go to JHU, I say we should stop making him/her feel ****** about it.

Haha. The 4 bedroom thing was a dig at me... Funny thing is you need those bedrooms if you have multiple kids. The people at CPS don't smile on a keeping 3 kids in a shed behind your studio apartment. The OP is working currently and finished undergrad so let's assume he/she's 26. He/she'd be 37 by the time he/she finishes NS. 37 is pretty old to start a family... you need those bedrooms in residency if you're going to have kids. In Baltimore that's not going to be cheap (I lived there for 3 years)

And again, it's nice to have your options open and not be saddled with 250K in debt.

Look I'm not saying the OP shouldn't choose JHU if he/she'd be miserable at WUSTL but the first 30 posters basically blew smoke up his ass and told him to go into massive debt, the equivalent of a mortgage. As the only person on this thread who actually has educational debt (from my lovely wife), who has gone through residency, I wouldn't dismiss what I am saying.

This board is notorious for pre-meds who have no concept of that debt creaming in their pants when they hear Hopkins or Harvard and telling people to go to the expensive option for some prestige- in this case we don't even have a marked difference in prestige. You rarely have residents telling people to go to the expensive option... wonder why...

 

[trino]

I'd also like to point out that OP said she would be "happy either way." It's not like she hates WUSTL. To me it sounds like she likes JHU just a little more. That little bit is not worth $250k in my pre-med opinion

 

[Asperphys]

During interview day a school is putting on the best face they can. They surround you by people who are happy there and keep those who aren't away from the interview crowd. Getting a good vibe from the good face the school was putting on doesn't necessarily mean you will be happy there or work well with the people. Also, everyone comes into med school (especially those from JHU and WUSTL) at the top of their class. Half of those people will be at the bottom half of the class. Again a vibe and being happy doesn't mean much.

Well that's a pretty expensive vibe: 5 hours during your interview for $250K



Haha. The 4 bedroom thing was a dig at me... Funny thing is you need those bedrooms if you have multiple kids. The people at CPS don't smile on a keeping 3 kids in a shed behind your studio apartment. The OP is working currently and finished undergrad so let's assume he/she's 26. He/she'd be 37 by the time he/she finishes NS. 37 is pretty old to start a family... you need those bedrooms in residency if you're going to have kids. In Baltimore that's not going to be cheap (I lived there for 3 years)

And again, it's nice to have your options open and not be saddled with 250K in debt.

Look I'm not saying the OP shouldn't choose JHU if he/she'd be miserable at WUSTL but the first 30 posters basically blew smoke up his ass and told him to go into massive debt, the equivalent of a mortgage. As the only person on this thread who actually has educational debt (from my lovely wife), who has gone through residency, I wouldn't dismiss what I am saying.

This board is notorious for pre-meds who have no concept of that debt creaming in their pants when they hear Hopkins or Harvard and telling people to go to the expensive option for some prestige- in this case we don't even have a marked difference in prestige. You rarely have residents telling people to go to the expensive option... wonder why...

No one is dismissing what you're saying. And I apologize if the 4 bedroom comment was worded poorly. I don't mean to insult you. Understand that we are all just contributing to a lively debate and all points are valid. I don't have a strong opinion on JHU vs WashU. We essentially BOTH agree that they don't have much difference in prestige. OP might have been asking for people's opinions, but what I did was analyze what they presented and amplified what it is that they actually wanted beneath all this (i.e. they would be much happier going to JHU and want some validation that it's not entirely cray-cray to turn down a full scholarship).

Also, please see my previous explanation for "vibe." I'm not a touchy-feely, kumbaya type of person and would not base my assessment on how much I like people or how nice they were to me. But I supplement rational thinking with intuition when the objective data are not definitive.

Most people's values and goals change during med school. You might be right that OP will want a family, in which case, the 250K debt would make life very difficult. Or maybe they'd refuse to compromise, defer that family till they're past 40 and doggedly pursue neurosurgery. I'm giving OP the benefit of doubt that they know and understand what they have to give up and they know what they want in life. For NOW, going to JHU will make them happy. Far be it from me to cr*p on people's dreams.

I'm sure the irony of what I'm advising OP to do is not lost on anyone. I did the exact opposite, in that I went to WashU and I have no debt. The difference is that this decision made me super HAPPY. I have the suspicion that the same decision will not make the OP as happy as I had been, and I'm not gonna project myself and my values on them.

 

[DermViser]

During interview day a school is putting on the best face they can. They surround you by people who are happy there and keep those who aren't away from the interview crowd. Getting a good vibe from the good face the school was putting on doesn't necessarily mean you will be happy there or work well with the people. Also, everyone comes into med school (especially those from JHU and WUSTL) at the top of their class. Half of those people will be at the bottom half of the class. Again a vibe and being happy doesn't mean much.

Well that's a pretty expensive vibe: 5 hours during your interview for $250K

Haha. The 4 bedroom thing was a dig at me... Funny thing is you need those bedrooms if you have multiple kids. The people at CPS don't smile on a keeping 3 kids in a shed behind your studio apartment. The OP is working currently and finished undergrad so let's assume he/she's 26. He/she'd be 37 by the time he/she finishes NS. 37 is pretty old to start a family... you need those bedrooms in residency if you're going to have kids. In Baltimore that's not going to be cheap (I lived there for 3 years)

And again, it's nice to have your options open and not be saddled with 250K in debt.

Look I'm not saying the OP shouldn't choose JHU if he/she'd be miserable at WUSTL but the first 30 posters basically blew smoke up his ass and told him to go into massive debt, the equivalent of a mortgage. As the only person on this thread who actually has educational debt (from my lovely wife), who has gone through residency, I wouldn't dismiss what I am saying.

This board is notorious for pre-meds who have no concept of that debt creaming in their pants when they hear Hopkins or Harvard and telling people to go to the expensive option for some prestige- in this case we don't even have a marked difference in prestige. You rarely have residents telling people to go to the expensive option... wonder why...

Ironically you're responding to Asperphys, an MD/PhD in the MSTP who wait for it.....has his full-tuition paid for. I'm sure not having to pay a dime in tuition contributes greatly to happiness something he takes for granted.

 

[Asperphys]

Ironically you're responding to Asperphys, an MD/PhD in the MSTP who wait for it.....has his full-tuition paid for. I'm sure not having to pay a dime in tuition contributes greatly to happiness something he takes for granted.

Hmmm... Please do not deliberately misunderstand, especially because we don't know each other in real life. I already mentioned that I chose WashU because it was the BEST FIT for ME. That said, I would not hesitate to drop 250K on WashU, if I had to. Being here got me everything I wanted and it would be money well spent IMHO. A number of my classmates happily paid that amount in lieu of full tuition scholarships elsewhere. And I cringe when people accuse them of being "prestige-******" for doing so because I think it's an unnecessarily derogatory label that totally disregards their values. Money is indeed a very serious consideration but it isn't everything. I still stand by my assertion that you cannot put an objective price on happiness and would advice most reasonably intelligent people do pursue what makes them happy as long as they have sufficiently weighed the pros and cons. Medical school can be such a pressure-cooker. When you're tired and stressed out, even the tiniest irritating things can throw you off, no matter how smart you are. It's hard to concentrate and work optimally when you're not in the zone, are distracted by stuff or depressed. It's subtle but it could mean the difference between 240 vs 270 on Step 1, honors vs high pass in a class/clerkship/shelf etc. If one is gonna go for something challenging like neurosurgery, it makes perfect sense to me that they'd wanna stack the odds and go where they are happiest/best-fitted.

This kinda leads me to wonder, what kind of decision-making goes into choosing one's med school? A number of people compare it to buying a house or getting a mortgage-- a totally monetary equation for a utilitarian item: a nice free house you inherited from grandma or your dream home that will cost you 250K or more?
Or is it more like choosing a spouse? Sure, Ms. Y is pretty enough and is an heiress. But say, I have the hots for Ms.X and will forever think of her as the one who got away if I didn't "put a ring on it." Marrying either one might lead to a divorce, and the success of the marriage really depends on the person choosing between these two.

I don't think there is a clear right answer to the OP's question of "What should I do?" except the one that the OP will NOT regret. I'm personally not invested in whatever he/she chooses. This is not a JHU vs WashU pissing contest. We all weighed in on "What would you do?" already. Now, let the OP be an adult, make up their mind and be supportive whatever that decision may be.

 

[ponyo]

I thought I set this thread to "Watch" but it didn't sent me any emails and now I've come back to what seems to be a LOT of detailed opinions -- all of which I really appreciate.

@Asperphys Your analogies are smooth as **** and the one about purchasing a utilitarian item vs choosing a spouse is incredibly salient, as it seems very much like a question of how one approaches one's career, with the two extremes being (1) medicine is just a day job and (2) obsessive love with the hospital. My relationship with my career probably presses closer to the latter (it's like a very seductive and very possessive mistress), and so I think happiness / intuitive attraction is the most important factor. In the case though, my intuition hasn't given me much help. I don't know where I will be happier because I feel happy about both places, and I got great, though very different, "vibes" from both student bodies. I'm definitely including you as a case study at the back of my mind though and it may very well sway me toward Wash U...

@Instatewaiter I agree with you that the incremental like is totally not worth a house-like mortgage, and I really appreciate that you're offering insight from your personal experience. I've gotten the Hopkins financial aid and it seems that I will be paying $11k/year for tuition + cost of living + insurance + misc fees. I believe this will come out to be about $38k/year based on their estimates. In comparison, I think Wash U will be more like $21k/year

@pyrrion89 I've only vaguely heard about IBR... my hopkins financial aid appt is tomorrow, so I'll ask them about it. Thank you for the info! I think what you said about prestige probably does apply to some people, but it seems that prestige (and, indeed, misinformation about prestige) is a valid tender in the lay / business world (where much money lies), so its lack of intrinsic value doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of practical value. I am in consulting now and it's kind of ridiculous how quickly brand names can translate to cash in various situations...

@NisslBody That is helpful! It seems like people land evenly on both sides of this decision.

@jturkel You're right, I was only thinking of Hopkins as having the best NS residency among the schools I was considering, which is not many of them. And if I really think about it, in all realistic likelihood I'll probably be average to lower tier at Hopkins anyway, so NS may very well just be a pipe dream! But I still want to make some attempts just so I won't have to be riddled with regret in some years

@ChEMD At this point I wish I were super picky person with strong preferences. But you're probably right and it might be the person who makes the experience, not to be too cliched..

 

[Asperphys]

@ponyo, it sounds like your decision is made tougher than ever. You might as well decide based on a coin toss. Joking aside, one way you can distinguish one school from the other is how easily you can find or access a mentor, even as a first year or very junior med student. You'll be surprised how much a great mentor can open doors to pipe dreams!

And don't sell yourself short. You cannot tell if you're just average at JHU, especially after the preclinical years evens all of you out and what determines how good a physician you are is your performance during your clerkships. I'm gonna PM you possible people in both neurosurgery and neurology at WashU whom you can reach out to for mentoring.

 

[troioi91]

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