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Hey @SummerTheLynx why didn't BI see anything when she tracked me N1? Dunno if we specified who was doing the killing that night.
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WildZoo said:
Hey @SummerTheLynx why didn't BI see anything when she tracked me N1? Dunno if we specified who was doing the killing that night.
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Default killer was alpha wolf when not specified. No killer was specified that night, thus it defaulted to DVMD. I think night 3 onwards you guys specified, and it stopped defaulting with DVMD.
 
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SummerTheLynx said:
Default killer was alpha wolf when not specified. No killer was specified that night, thus it defaulted to DVMD. I think night 3 onwards you guys specified, and it stopped defaulting with DVMD.
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For those who are curious as to why this was the case, DVMD was completely unable to be killed prior to night 3 (whether by lynch, kill, etc.). At night 3, she went to having 1 lynch avoidance, and unable to be killed at night.
 
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WillowLeaf said:
I definitely thought some of WZ's lines were you... :laugh: (Yeah, I followed the whole game even though I said I didn't have time to play... Might be a little addicted.)

@lhmhtd Your puppy is adorable!
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As soon as I saw that spying I knew it was WZ. I just didn't want to admit it to myself. I also had strong suspicions early on that WZ was the puppeteer because only she would want to keep me around as a pet- I never really bought the whole "villager rez+wolf curse" thing completely.
 
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Mad Jack said:
As soon as I saw that spying I knew it was WZ. I just didn't want to admit it to myself. I also had strong suspicions early on that WZ was the puppeteer because only she would want to keep me around as a pet- I never really bought the whole "villager rez+wolf curse" thing completely.
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To be honest, we had no idea that you would become a puppet for us when rezzed. All we knew was that WZ could rez and the person rezzed, "might not recall who they once were".
 
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Mad Jack said:
As soon as I saw that spying I knew it was WZ. I just didn't want to admit it to myself. I also had strong suspicions early on that WZ was the puppeteer because only she would want to keep me around as a pet- I never really bought the whole "villager rez+wolf curse" thing completely.
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DVMDream said:
To be honest, we had no idea that you would become a puppet for us when rezzed. All we knew was that WZ could rez and the person rezzed, "might not recall who they once were".
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Yes, you being our minion was a happy surprise :D And I wasn't sure what would happen when I rezzed Gwen either. We didn't know she would die if LIS was lynched.
 
As I guess a departing note, this game really surprised me with how I expected it to turn out. I did this as a low number wolf game (with only 1 convert that wasn't a guaranteed convert), and expected that the villagers would be heavily favored to win. 2 full seers on the villager's side, that were able to communicate with each other, an item maker on the villager side, a person that could watch conversations, someone that could revive a role, someone that could directly check for converts, and a tracker. To see the wolves steamroll the villagers was just plain surprising to me. So kudos to the wolves, you seriously impressed me.
 
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SummerTheLynx said:
As I guess a departing note, this game really surprised me with how I expected it to turn out. I did this as a low number wolf game (with only 1 convert that wasn't a guaranteed convert), and expected that the villagers would be heavily favored to win. 2 full seers on the villager's side, that were able to communicate with each other, an item maker on the villager side, a person that could watch conversations, someone that could revive a role, someone that could directly check for converts, and a tracker. To see the wolves steamroll the villagers was just plain surprising to me. So kudos to the wolves, you seriously impressed me.
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It was a little unbalanced though. Sure you had someone who could watch conversations....but you severely limited villager communication. Which is really important. And you made an unseerable unkillable wolf (that ended up with just 1 lynch avoidance later but still) in a game with under 20 people.
 
SummerTheLynx said:
As I guess a departing note, this game really surprised me with how I expected it to turn out. I did this as a low number wolf game (with only 1 convert that wasn't a guaranteed convert), and expected that the villagers would be heavily favored to win. 2 full seers on the villager's side, that were able to communicate with each other, an item maker on the villager side, a person that could watch conversations, someone that could revive a role, someone that could directly check for converts, and a tracker. To see the wolves steamroll the villagers was just plain surprising to me. So kudos to the wolves, you seriously impressed me.
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I think a large part of that was the lack of communication between villagers. With only one conversation partner, figuring out who might have been a wolf was damn-near impossible. The wolves just had far too great of an information advantage overall, and the confusion roles thrown in really exacerbated what was already a difficult quandary of who to target for the villagers.
 
dyachei said:
It was a little unbalanced though. Sure you had someone who could watch conversations....but you severely limited villager communication. Which is really important. And you made an unseerable unkillable wolf (that ended up with just 1 lynch avoidance later but still) in a game with under 20 people.
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I was far from unseerable. LIS seered me as a wolf and gwen would have also seered me as a wolf. Actually the ONLY chance I had of being found as a villager would be LIS happening to seer my whole role info instead of just my alliance, which he couldn't do until later on anyway.
 
dyachei said:
It was a little unbalanced though. Sure you had someone who could watch conversations....but you severely limited villager communication. Which is really important. And you made an unseerable unkillable wolf (that ended up with just 1 lynch avoidance later but still) in a game with under 20 people.
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Really? I figured with a proportion of 4.3:1 villagers (when most games end up being 3:1) that it would balance for that. And wolves had NO means of obtaining information. They had no seer on their side. They had just as much limited information as you guys. In fact, the two wolves got paired with roles that wouldn't know anything specifically to keep them in the dark.

I figured keeping two seers together in the same chat as each other was a good means of countering it. How would you have proposed I balanced it more? The main fall role was MJ, and based off of how the seers were able to seer, even MJ wasn't much of a fall role following investigation.
 
Mad Jack said:
I think a large part of that was the lack of communication between villagers. With only one conversation partner, figuring out who might have been a wolf was damn-near impossible. The wolves just had far too great of an information advantage overall, and the confusion roles thrown in really exacerbated what was already a difficult quandary of who to target for the villagers.
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What information advantage? We couldn't seer anyone. We couldn't even talk to anyone that could seer. You never talked to me. And devyn disappeared this game completely. The only time we actually got any info was when we converted LIS and by that point the info he had, had already been revealed on thread. I had no idea who the seer was, it was pure luck on converting LIS. And LIS had no idea that gwen was a seer, he just suggested that we kill her. Overall, we just got lucky. But up until the very end of the game when things started coming out on the thread.. I had no idea who anyone was or what they could do. And I didn't know about dyachei's role ability until the very last lynch. I only knew of her mayor convo starting ability.

We also had a fair amount of disadvantages too: TP who couldn't by lynched or killed. Dyachei who couldn't be killed. Basically if it had ended up with 1 wolf at the end, it was impossible for a wolf to win with the way it was set up.
 
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DVMDream said:
What information advantage? We couldn't seer anyone. We couldn't even talk to anyone that could seer. You never talked to me. And devyn disappeared this game completely. The only time we actually got any info was when we converted LIS and by that point the info he had, had already been revealed on thread. I had no idea who the seer was, it was pure luck on converting LIS. And LIS had no idea that gwen was a seer, he just suggested that we kill her. Overall, we just got lucky.

We also had a fair amount of disadvantages too: TP who couldn't by lynched or killed. Dyachei who couldn't be killed. Basically if it had ended up with 1 wolf at the end, it was impossible for a wolf to win with the way it was set up.
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That was also the other point. It was supposed to keep the wolves from using the "let's just kick other wolves under the bus and gain credibility" approach. I was trying to make wolves play more collaboratively to try and keep all of themselves alive (at the risk of exposing themselves)
 
SummerTheLynx said:
That was also the other point. It was supposed to keep the wolves from using the "let's just kick other wolves under the bus and gain credibility" approach. I was trying to make wolves play more collaboratively to try and keep all of themselves alive (at the risk of exposing themselves)
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However, you can't do that. If the game is to be well-balanced, it should be able to be won by a single wolf remaining because it often ends with only one wolf and most of these games wolves don't throw other wolves under the bus. This was not balanced in a way that should a single wolf be left (as commonly happens) that the wolf could have won. To me, that is a flaw in game design, but to each their own.
 
SummerTheLynx said:
That was also the other point. It was supposed to keep the wolves from using the "let's just kick other wolves under the bus and gain credibility" approach. I was trying to make wolves play more collaboratively to try and keep all of themselves alive (at the risk of exposing themselves)
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Although I did expect paranoia to get dyachei lynched at some point. But dyachei is too great of a leader to allow that to happen. I feel like most other people in that role would have gotten lynched by day 6/7.
 
DVMDream said:
However, you can't do that. If the game is to be well-balanced, it should be able to be won by a single wolf remaining because it often ends with only one wolf and most of these games wolves don't throw other wolves under the bus. This was not balanced in a way that should a single wolf be left (as commonly happens) that the wolf could have won. To me, that is a flaw in game design, but to each their own.
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I agree with this partially. I was going off the LIS philosophy that it should be difficult for wolves to win, and a rare occasion. I agree with you that wolves were at a disadvantage this game, as I was intending. I am just surprised that villagers believed they were at a disadvantage tbh....
 
I do also agree with the villagers though that limiting their communication was a hindrance to them, but it really aided the wolves.

I also don't like having to have conversations with the mods looking in. Often they say things that while not intended can influence game decisions. Not saying that happened this game, but I prefer to not have to hear mod commentary and side remarks on the strategy I am trying to discuss. I get why it was needed for this game, but I am not a fan of doing my discussion and strategy play in front of the mods. I also think it is part of the game that the mod can't see what the players are discussing so that it becomes a bit of a surprise when they get actions from players.
 
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DVMDream said:
However, you can't do that. If the game is to be well-balanced, it should be able to be won by a single wolf remaining because it often ends with only one wolf and most of these games wolves don't throw other wolves under the bus. This was not balanced in a way that should a single wolf be left (as commonly happens) that the wolf could have won. To me, that is a flaw in game design, but to each their own.
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I'm okay with every game not going down to the last wolf. That happens so often it's not even exciting anymore.
 
DVMDream said:
I do also agree with the villagers though that limiting their communication was a hindrance to them, but it really aided the wolves.

I also don't like having to have conversations with the mods looking in. Often they say things that while not intended can influence game decisions. Not saying that happened this game, but I prefer to not have to hear mod commentary and side remarks on the strategy I am trying to discuss. I get why it was needed for this game, but I am not a fan of doing my discussion and strategy play in front of the mods. I also think it is part of the game that the mod can't see what the players are discussing so that it becomes a bit of a surprise when they get actions from players.
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Agreed. But I believed it would be a hindrance to both, but maybe I overestimated the effect it would have on wolves.

And no I get that. I agree with that, in games I play, I generally don't like mods looking in as well, and I would encourage you to make your own convo if it wasn't for that game mechanic.

out of curiosity @LetItSnow being both a villager and a wolf, what did you think? Do you think it was wolf sided or villager sided

And sorry for all of the conversation on this, I am just trying to figure out how to balance it better for next time.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'm okay with every game not going down to the last wolf. That happens so often it's not even exciting anymore.
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There is a difference between a game getting to the last wolf because it was actually well balanced and well designed and a game going to last wolf because the mod tweaks the game throughout to make it so. Lately it seems to be the latter that is occurring.

I don't care if the game goes to the last wolf or not. If wolves cream villagers, then great. If villagers cream wolves, great. However, the game should be designed that if it happens to be 1 wolf vs. 9 villagers (as has happened to me before), that wolf should have a fighting chance in actually winning.
 
SummerTheLynx said:
Agreed. But I believed it would be a hindrance to both, but maybe I overestimated the effect it would have on wolves.

And no I get that. I agree with that, in games I play, I generally don't like mods looking in as well, and I would encourage you to make your own convo if it wasn't for that game mechanic.

out of curiosity @LetItSnow being both a villager and a wolf, what did you think? Do you think it was wolf sided or villager sided

And sorry for all of the conversation on this, I am just trying to figure out how to balance it better for next time.
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I think the only reason it was less of a hindrance to us was because of how lucky we got with converting LIS, and then killing Gwen. We really didn't know anything about anyone's role that the villagers didn't reveal, with the exception that we found out BI's role like, one day earlier. Because otherwise, like DVM said, we were only talking to each other.
 
brightimpressio said:
Was it STL that did his with bows and arrows?
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@WildZoo was right, it was Romoret.

And thank you STL for the game! I had no idea that LIS was another seer of a sort. Though when I was rezzed and ended up being a shadow puppet, I started being suspicious of WZ, but I assumed her role was RNG so I didn't say much.
 
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Gwenevre said:
@WildZoo was right, it was Romoret.

And thank you STL for the game! I had no idea that LIS was another seer of a sort. Though when I was rezzed and ended up being a shadow puppet, I started being suspicious of WZ, but I assumed her role was RNG so I didn't say much.
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Wait, you didn't know LIS was a seer? I'm pretty sure we killed you because we thought you would get suspicious of him when he stopped getting results :laugh:
 
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WildZoo said:
Wait, you didn't know LIS was a seer? I'm pretty sure we killed you because we thought you would get suspicious of him when he stopped getting results :laugh:
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No, I didn't know. I didn't know my results were anagrams until I was rezzed, so I had no clue what LIS' result even meant. I just knew that the night I was killed was the night I got the message that he had been converted to the necromancer.
 
Gwenevre said:
No, I didn't know. I didn't know my results were anagrams until I was rezzed, so I had no clue what LIS' result even meant. I just knew that the night I was killed was the night I got the message that he had been converted to the necromancer.
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Lol. So neither of you knew the other was a seer. Priceless.
 
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WildZoo said:
Lol. So neither of you knew the other was a seer. Priceless.
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Wait wait. Gwen, how did you not know I was a seer? Once I checked you out as a villager, I fed all my results to you!

It is pretty amusing that neither of us knew it. I wasn't the one that put together the anagram thing - that was Dyachei. I saw Gwen's original messages and kinda shrugged and said "dunno" and didn't have the time to think about it. Dyachei figured it out in ... oh ... 30 seconds or so.

SummerTheLynx said:
out of curiosity @LetItSnow being both a villager and a wolf, what did you think? Do you think it was wolf sided or villager sided
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Sorry, I'm not sure I have much of an opinion. I liked some of the mechanics - I liked the minion thing, I liked the anagram thing, I liked the conversation-intercepting thing (though I also understand DVMD's point about the mod being in on every conversation) .... I'm not too fond of sketchy role names that are purely designed to make someone suspicious. It just makes me sigh. But as far as balance? I really wasn't able to follow the game closely enough to have a meaningful opinion. :( Just the bummer of being on rotations. Soz. :(
 
LetItSnow said:
Wait wait. Gwen, how did you not know I was a seer? Once I checked you out as a villager, I fed all my results to you!
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I didn't want to assume anything. You could have been feeding me results from someone else. I wasn't sure how STL structured the PMs
 
WildZoo said:
I believed you this time! :shifty:
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Dr.-Evil-Sarcastic-Right-In-Austin-Powers-Gifs.gif
 
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I think the you can't be killed mechanic is overdone these days.and I streams by thinking Dvmd was over powered in this game. Having any sort of seer aversion in addition to difficult to kill is really over powered in a small game. That plus the limited conversation made it unbalanced since it is typically the villagers that benefit from private conversations. As a result it took a while to get things out in thread. If a wolf had become mayor, it likely would have been unwinnable by villagers.

That's not even looking at wz and get resurrection ability
 
WildZoo said:
That reminds me, @SummerTheLynx was MJ linked to me in the same way that Gwen was linked to LIS, in that he would have died if I died?
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Yup yup, but the exception here is that unlike the LIS situation, the death of MJ would not have resulted in your death, whereas the death of Gwen would have resulted in LIS's death. Also, if you hadn't have converted LIS by night 6, you would not have been able to keep 2 people alive at the same time, and would have had to sacrifice either Gwen or MJ.
 
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SummerTheLynx said:
Yup yup, but the exception here is that unlike the LIS situation, the death of MJ would not have resulted in your death, whereas the death of Gwen would have resulted in LIS's death. Also, if you hadn't have converted LIS by night 6, you would not have been able to keep 2 people alive at the same time, and would have had to sacrifice either Gwen or MJ.
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Hmm so I guess it didn't matter who we lynched that day, they were both going to die anyway lol
 
SummerTheLynx said:
Not long actually, maybe a few minutes each. I love little puzzles like those :).
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*cough*bragaboutit*cough* :D
You came up with all of them ahead of time, right? You should post them all :D

Oh, I was also curious about how exactly dy's role worked. Was it just RNG for which conversation she intercepted? I'm glad that we hadn't mentioned either of our names in the part that she got from us lol
 
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WildZoo said:
*cough*bragaboutit*cough* :D
You came up with all of them ahead of time, right? You should post them all :D

Oh, I was also curious about how exactly dy's role worked. Was it just RNG for which conversation she intercepted? I'm glad that we hadn't mentioned either of our names in the part that she got from us lol
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I had to choose a conversation number and the conversations to choose from decreased daily
 
I would if I didn't already delete my game document lol (I have a bad habit of not saving them, and then my computer spazzed out the other day, and I lost most of my data for the game lol...)

And it wasn't. She could choose a number between 1 and the total number of conversations remaining. The conversation numbers would change based off of which conversations got deleted. However, she figured out pretty early on the seer conversation, and stayed watching that for a bit.
 
dyachei said:
Im not sure why LIS didn't tell you guys. That's the only reason I came out with it.
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He probably forgot, you know, old man that he is. It would have been funny if you had intercepted our conversation a few days earlier, you might have gotten a string of posts where I was talking to myself. DVM was right, it was like 6 posts in a row :oops:
 
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WildZoo said:
He probably forgot, you know, old man that he is. It would have been funny if you had intercepted our conversation a few days earlier, you might have gotten a string of posts where I was talking to myself. DVM was right, it was like 6 posts in a row :oops:
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Exactly 100% correct - I just plain forgot.

It was tough for me to keep up - SAM tends to be a super high-demand rotation. So I just forgot to pass on everything I knew.
 
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