Yale vs. Stanford

[AvengingNarwhal]

Hi All, I know these "one place vs. another" threads are super-repetitive and come off as shameless trolling, but I honestly need an outside opinion on this since I'm so ridiculously 50-50 on this question...

I'm elated by both schools, but they're so similar in many aspects (P/F curriculum for 2 or 4 years, emphasis on research, location in less-than-urban areas, etc.) that it's made the decision pretty difficult. Compounding this is the fact that both schools have their Second-Look Weekends the same weekend...

A little about myself, I live on the West Coast, but went to school out East, so I'm familiar with both sweltering summers and glacial winters, etc. I'm interested in social medicine, and in getting an MPH or PhD in a social science. Public health and international medicine are some of my major concerns, though I know it could all change in school.

Anyways, here is my current compilation:

STANFORD:
Pros
- California! Also, SF is nearby
- Tons of opportunities for $$ (TA, research)
- Great research programs in basic sciences
- Small class size
- Stanford Hospital
- P/F all 4 years (no idea if that's a good or bad thing for clinical years...)

Cons
- Small class size with a lot of nontraditionals
- More than half of class remains in California for residency, esp. @ Stanford
- Emphasis on research seems to outshadow clinical opportunities
- Core curriculum is geared towards basic sciences, with little time spent on social aspects/therapy
- No public health school (though joint program with Berkeley)

YALE:
Pros
- No grades, no mandatory tests even (though grades in clinical years--not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing)
- Strong research program
- Yale-New Haven Hospital
- Has public health school (I'd like to do an MPH or PhD in social medicine)
- Surgery-based anatomy
- Lots of diversity in entering class

Cons
- New Haven
- No tests system may not motivate? (No idea at all how this will work)
- PH School isn't as good as med
- Less emphasis on service

I never thought I'd be one to put up a thread like this and I apologize to anyone who's offended-- I honestly am not trying to boast... I just need any input from people to help me decide. Thank you all so much!

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[altctrldel]

wow.. you must be my long lost twin. i'm also interested in social medicine and am currently deciding between stanford and yale.

 

[omam]

Regarding public health, doing the MPH at Berkeley is a great option, probably better than Yale School of public health.

But Stanford seems somehow less plugged in to the whole social medicine idea. Same thing with international health. However, these last 2 observations are just my impressions. What do you guys think?

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Regarding public health, doing the MPH at Berkeley is a great option, probably better than Yale School of public health.

But Stanford seems somehow less plugged in to the whole social medicine idea. Same thing with international health. However, these last 2 observations are just my impressions. What do you guys think?

I agree. The Berkeley MPH will be awesome (commute less so), but I'm not as keen on Stanford's basic curriculum. That said, they do offer "concentrations" in the medical humanities where you just have classes talking about nothing but that, but I'd prefer a more integrated curriculum that's less like college.

wow.. you must be my long lost twin. i'm also interested in social medicine and am currently deciding between stanford and yale.

Amazing. We must talk

 

[altctrldel]

Btw, i'm leaning toward Yale. I just really love the school and the access to the undergrad colleges and law school. There is not a huge international health scene at Yale but they're making a push in that direction. Google "Nyaya Health;" it's an organization founded by Yale Med students. Also, I'm not sure if doing an MPH at Columbia's Mailman School of Public Health or at Harvard's School of Public Health is a viable option, but it's something to keep in mind (they're both very close to Yale is my point).

 

[omam]

I'm not as keen on Stanford's basic curriculum. That said, they do offer "concentrations" in the medical humanities where you just have classes talking about nothing but that, but I'd prefer a more integrated curriculum that's less like college.

I'm not sure Yale offers any more of an "integrated curriculum" than Stanford when it comes to social medicine/public health/international health. What it might offer is 1) More people/mentors/colleagues interested in that stuff and 2) More institutions/resouces to support your work in those areas.

Also, what do you not like about Stanford's "basic curriculum" vis-a-vis Yale?

 

[omam]

Btw, i'm leaning toward Yale. I just really love the school and the access to the undergrad colleges and law school. There is not a huge international health scene at Yale but they're making a push in that direction. Google "Nyaya Health;" it's an organization founded by Yale Med students. Also, I'm not sure if doing an MPH at Columbia's Mailman School of Public Health or at Harvard's School of Public Health is a viable option, but it's something to keep in mind (they're both very close to Yale is my point).

When it comes to an MPH where you take a leave from medical school to do a whole year somewhere else, do you think proximity still matters that much? My point is, people come to the Harvard School of Public Health or Mailman or whatever from medical schools all over the country. So maybe the MPH factor shouldn't weigh in to the decision.

Just playing devil's advocate here I'm facing the same difficult decision...

 

[altctrldel]

double post EDIT

 

[altctrldel]

When it comes to an MPH where you take a leave from medical school to do a whole year somewhere else, do you think proximity still matters that much? My point is, people come to the Harvard School of Public Health or Mailman or whatever from medical schools all over the country. So maybe the MPH factor shouldn't weigh in to the decision.

Just playing devil's advocate here I'm facing the same difficult decision...

I think it's unlikely for someone to graduate with their MD then take several years off to obtain their MPH. Usually, it's MD/MPH (accelerated 1 year MPH program)- in which case it would be more convenient to do it at a nearby institution if one decides not to obtain the one-year MPH at their own school (actually I'm not sure if you're allowed to do this that's why I qualified my earlier statement).

 

[omam]

I think it's unlikely for someone to graduate with their MD then take several years off to obtain their MPH. Usually, it's MD/MPH (accelerated 1 year MPH program)- in which case it would be more convenient to do it at a nearby institution if one decides not to obtain the one-year MPH at their own school (actually I'm not sure if you're allowed to do this that's why I qualified my earlier statement).

As you say, in most cases, med students take 1 year off to the MPH anywhere (either at the home institution or at a place like Harvard). A year off is a year off; aside from plane ticket costs you could really do it anywhere.

 

[altctrldel]

As you say, in most cases, med students take 1 year off to the MPH anywhere (either at the home institution or at a place like Harvard). A year off is a year off; aside from plane ticket costs you could really do it anywhere.

Yes, I agree with that.. but considering the fact that one has not officially graduate from the MD program, there may be obligations that one still has to research labs, extracurricular activities, etc at the main institution.

 

[Drogba]

Not only is berkeley probably better for public health, it's Medical Anthropology joint program with UCSF is many times stronger. Judging from your post describing your development thus far in another thread I would think this is something you are considering. My only question is why you didn't apply to some MSTP funded MD/PhD programs to begin with.

Expect a PM from within a day or two, our interests are very similar from what I can judge. I likewise plan on pursuing complementary social science training, possibly in the form of a PhD in med anthro.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Btw, i'm leaning toward Yale. I just really love the school and the access to the undergrad colleges and law school. There is not a huge international health scene at Yale but they're making a push in that direction. Google "Nyaya Health;" it's an organization founded by Yale Med students. Also, I'm not sure if doing an MPH at Columbia's Mailman School of Public Health or at Harvard's School of Public Health is a viable option, but it's something to keep in mind (they're both very close to Yale is my point).

Heh. Those are good points. Yale's EPH school is undergoing an absolutely massive restructuring right now to reorient it in a more global health setting (I'll come clean, I'm Yale undergrad and got some inside info), which is exciting, though you never know about a new program. As for Nyaya Health, I've been working with them for the past year and I can tell you they are an absolutely amazing bunch of phenomenal people (though still a small team

I'm not sure Yale offers any more of an "integrated curriculum" than Stanford when it comes to social medicine/public health/international health. What it might offer is 1) More people/mentors/colleagues interested in that stuff and 2) More institutions/resouces to support your work in those areas.

Also, what do you not like about Stanford's "basic curriculum" vis-a-vis Yale?

Agreed. It's not more integrated, but I got the feeling that Stanford's lecture structure was too basic science, while Yale tried to integrate more therapy and/or clinical correlates into it.

When it comes to an MPH where you take a leave from medical school to do a whole year somewhere else, do you think proximity still matters that much? My point is, people come to the Harvard School of Public Health or Mailman or whatever from medical schools all over the country. So maybe the MPH factor shouldn't weigh in to the decision.

Just playing devil's advocate here I'm facing the same difficult decision...

Works in a variety of ways. As Alt/Ctrl/Del noted, you need to do a combined program to do it in 1 year, and if you get into the MD program, MPH admissions is a shoe-in. That said, I would definitely considering applying to other places (including LSHTM).

I've also considered a PhD in Med Anthro at Berkeley since I know their program is outstanding. Again, that would revive the problem of travel out there and taking several years off :/

 

[altctrldel]

i'm considering a phd in med anthro as well...ucsf, harvard, case western, u wash (any others?) are the only programs that has it.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Not only is berkeley probably better for public health, it's Medical Anthropology joint program with UCSF is many times stronger. Judging from your post describing your development thus far in another thread I would think this is something you are considering. My only question is why you didn't apply to some MSTP funded MD/PhD programs to begin with.

Expect a PM from within a day or two, our interests are very similar from what I can judge. I likewise plan on pursuing complementary social science training, possibly in the form of a PhD in med anthro.

Thanks Drogba. I'd love to talk with you in more detail. I would love the UCSF/UCB program, but I need to hear back from them about my interview first! As for MSTP, the only one I saw that was possible was a PhD in Statistics. Alas, I have literally no Stats experience, so this was out of the question. I applied MD/MPH instead.

 

[nata723]

I stayed with a student host that was great during my Yale interview. The students I met were REALLY friendly, too. I think that the no-grades thing is a big advantage (and that's weird for me to say b/c tests are my main motivator). As I saw it, the students really loved the testing system. I was there the week before they took their optional midterms, and most students were planning on taking it, and were taking it pretty seriously. They said that they had lots of motivation from each other. Everyone studied pretty hard, as at any other top med school I've seen; I didn't at all see a difference in motivation or in study habits.

What WAS different was the fact that they were all so friendly and helpful and cooperative towards one another. There was no class competition, as my student host said. Rather, the students would motivate each other through example; when you see someone studying hard, you say, 'hey I wanna do that too' and so it helps you. That's what it's like.

I loved the atmosphere there; everyone was really nice and happy. And I don't know about the emphasis on service, but it seemed to me to be the same as any other school I've visited...no less, in my opinion.

Also my interviewer told me that the city of New Haven is very - looking for the right word - liberal? open-minded? The city has helped with immigrant rights and was hoping to establish some sort of identification for illegal immigrants so they could have benefits. It is one of the most open-minded cities, according to my interviewer. So in that sense, I think the school and the city may be service-oriented. I think the school has a Spanish clinic (as do lots of med schools, I guess).

I can't speak for Stanford because I didn't interview there, but I did hear from students at other med schools that the Stanford non-grading system in the clinical years was a major disadvantage to the students there and that it would not be in their favor when applying for residencies.

I guess my opinion is biased towards Yale but that's my two cents. Good luck in your decision!

 

[Drogba]

i'm considering a phd in med anthro as well...ucsf, harvard, case western, u wash (any others?) are the only programs that has it.

Emory and Penn. Penn's is brand new, but guess who is leading it? Phillipe Bourgois. Got him away from UCSF somehow.

EDIT: Are you sure UWash has this program?

 

[Drogba]

Thanks Drogba. I'd love to talk with you in more detail. I would love the UCSF/UCB program, but I need to hear back from them about my interview first! As for MSTP, the only one I saw that was possible was a PhD in Statistics. Alas, I have literally no Stats experience, so this was out of the question. I applied MD/MPH instead.

You´ve been poorly misinformed! All the above MD/PhD mentioned in this thread have MSTP funding, except case I think. UCSF/Berk, Harvard, Emory all definitely have MSTP funding for the MD/PhD med anthros. I'm really sad to hear you didn't know this.

 

[altctrldel]

That said, I would definitely considering applying to other places (including LSHTM).

since you've brought up a school abroad... perhaps you should also look into LSE. you could do a fulbright year there with catherine campbell (she is the Director of the MPhil/PhD Programme).

http://www.psych.lse.ac.uk/socialpsychology/research/hcd/ppl_researchmem.php

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

I stayed with a student host that was great during my Yale interview. The students I met were REALLY friendly, too. I think that the no-grades thing is a big advantage (and that's weird for me to say b/c tests are my main motivator). As I saw it, the students really loved the testing system. I was there the week before they took their optional midterms, and most students were planning on taking it, and were taking it pretty seriously. They said that they had lots of motivation from each other. Everyone studied pretty hard, as at any other top med school I've seen; I didn't at all see a difference in motivation or in study habits.

What WAS different was the fact that they were all so friendly and helpful and cooperative towards one another. There was no class competition, as my student host said. Rather, the students would motivate each other through example; when you see someone studying hard, you say, 'hey I wanna do that too' and so it helps you. That's what it's like.

I loved the atmosphere there; everyone was really nice and happy. And I don't know about the emphasis on service, but it seemed to me to be the same as any other school I've visited...no less, in my opinion.

Also my interviewer told me that the city of New Haven is very - looking for the right word - liberal? open-minded? The city has helped with immigrant rights and was hoping to establish some sort of identification for illegal immigrants so they could have benefits. It is one of the most open-minded cities, according to my interviewer. So in that sense, I think the school and the city may be service-oriented. I think the school has a Spanish clinic (as do lots of med schools, I guess).

I can't speak for Stanford because I didn't interview there, but I did hear from students at other med schools that the Stanford non-grading system in the clinical years was a major disadvantage to the students there and that it would not be in their favor when applying for residencies.

I guess my opinion is biased towards Yale but that's my two cents. Good luck in your decision!

Thanks Nata, I've always wondered about how important clinical grading is. Having lived in New Haven the past four years, I know what you're talking about. I've volunteered with the Spanish clinic and been around with the whole ID card thing, though I won't go into my own political rants about it. Stanford has SF nearby though, as well as several clinics for the underserved as well...

Emory and Penn. Penn's is brand new, but guess who is leading it? Phillipe Bourgois. Got him away from UCSF somehow.

haha, wonder how much they're paying him

Speaking of which, do you know if an MD/PhD in History of Medicine is helpful for anyone interested in social medicine?

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

You´ve been poorly misinformed! All the above MD/PhD mentioned in this thread have MSTP funding, except case I think. UCSF/Berk, Harvard, Emory all definitely have MSTP funding for the MD/PhD med anthros. I'm really sad to hear you didn't know this.

Really? I was told at my Harvard interview that they can only subsidize your PhD portion, not the MD. In addition, several of my friends in MSTP-funded Stats programs have told me that MSTP programs in the humanities are about to get axed with the current funding situation on Capitol Hill...

since you've brought up a school abroad... perhaps you should also look into LSE. you could do a fulbright year there with catherine campbell (she is the Director of the MPhil/PhD Programme).

http://www.psych.lse.ac.uk/socialpsychology/research/hcd/ppl_researchmem.php

Thanks for the update! I guess with LSHTM, I was talking about University of London too, though I had no idea that LSE had a separate division for health policy unrelated to UoL's Hygiene/Tropical Medicine School. Bookmarked!

 

[Drogba]

Speaking of which, do you know if an MD/PhD in History of Medicine is helpful for anyone interested in social medicine?

Uhm. I definitely know of MD/PhD's in History of Medicine but it really depends on what you see yourself doing. PhDs lend themselves to research and academics, so if you are interested in the type of research historians of medicine do then more power to you, but they generally do not use the involved methodology of anthropology (ethnography, participant observation).

Also, I don't know how easy it is to combine clinical practice with academic med anthro to begin with (this is what I'm currently working out), I would imagine it would be even more difficulty to do so with a history of medicine degree. You could definitely do academic research and practice medicine part time though if you manage to get such an appointment.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Uhm. I definitely know of MD/PhD's in History of Medicine but it really depends on what you see yourself doing. PhDs lend themselves to research and academics, so if you are interested in the type of research historians of medicine do then more power to you, but they generally do not use the involved methodology of anthropology (ethnography, participant observation).

Also, I don't know how easy it is to combine clinical practice with academic med anthro to begin with (this is what I'm currently working out), I would imagine it would be even more difficulty to do so with a history of medicine degree. You could definitely do academic research and practice medicine part time though if you manage to get such an appointment.

Yeah, that's what I figured. It just happened to be an additional perk for Yale since they have a small (but IMO solid) History of Science/Medicine department and their History facilities in general are stellar.

If I may inquire, what programs are you leaning towards yourself? (If you don't mind divulging).

 

[omam]

I can't speak for Stanford because I didn't interview there, but I did hear from students at other med schools that the Stanford non-grading system in the clinical years was a major disadvantage to the students there and that it would not be in their favor when applying for residencies.

This is interesting. I kust looked at Stanford's match list and it is quite spectacular: UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, Stanford. THe lack of clinical grades does not seem to impact the residency placement very much if you go by the match list.

Is Stanford's lack of clinical grading really a factor?

 

[Drogba]

Really? I was told at my Harvard interview that they can only subsidize your PhD portion, not the MD. In addition, several of my friends in MSTP-funded Stats programs have told me that MSTP programs in the humanities are about to get axed with the current funding situation on Capitol Hill...

Not if you apply directly to their joint program, unless this changed this year. I also know someone who was formerly part of the UCB/UCSF program. I've also seen funding information from UCSF/UCB's website attesting to this fact.

It would really suck if this funding was lost.

Thanks for the update! I guess with LSHTM, I was talking about University of London too, though I had no idea that LSE had a separate division for health policy unrelated to UoL's Hygiene/Tropical Medicine School. Bookmarked!

MSTP Trainees in the Basic Sciences receive full payment of all tuition and fees, either from the MSTP, their
graduate program or their thesis advisor. In addition to the MSTP portion of the stipend ($20,772 in 06-07), the Dean
of the Medical School supplements that stipend ($5228 in 06-07) during the first two years of the MD program for a
total stipend of $26,000 in 2006-07.
Medical Anthropology MSTP Trainees do not work within the research projects of their advisors, but rather conduct
independent research with mentoring from their advisors. Therefore, the funding structure is different. The
Department of Anthropology, History and Social Medicine is unable to guarantee that it can provide a supplemental
stipend in the graduate years of the MSTP for their trainees. After the first two, and for the remaining PhD years,
the students enter into a competitive funding pool along with the other Medical Anthropology PhD students.
Students in our PhD program have been very successful in applying for funding for these years
Upon return to the School of Medicine after completion of the Ph.D., the MSTP will cover all Medical Anthropology
MSTP Trainees for their tuition and fees, in addition to the current stipend. If the trainee reaches the end of nine
years in the MSTP, they will not longer receive the School of Medicine supplement. They will only receive the MSTP
stipend for the remainder of their training.

from http://dahsm.medschool.ucsf.edu/pdf/webinfo_mstp_applicants.pdf

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

This is interesting. I kust looked at Stanford's match list and it is quite spectacular: UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Brigham, Stanford. THe lack of clinical grades does not seem to impact the residency placement very much if you go by the match list.

Is Stanford's lack of clinical grading really a factor?

Their match list is phenomenal. What I noticed though was that there was less variation in Stanford's vs. Yale's. Yale sent kids to a variety of places, both above and below Stanford's list (some make it, some choose not to, I guess). Stanford on the other hand had like 53/86 staying in California (I think like 30-something are staying at Stanford, with the rest at the UCs). Yale, however had its own contingency of UCSFs, along with a horde of Yale-New Haven, and actually similar number of MGH/Brigham (17 Yale, 16 Stanford). More New York schools, though, with a bunch of people at NY-Presb. Ironically, only one Yale grad is going to Stanford and only one Stanford grad is going to Yale for residency (they must be really different )

 

[Drogba]

Yeah, that's what I figured. It just happened to be an additional perk for Yale since they have a small (but IMO solid) History of Science/Medicine department and their History facilities in general are stellar.

If I may inquire, what programs are you leaning towards yourself? (If you don't mind divulging).

I´m not applying for a little while still. I'm doing some fairly intensive med anthro research this summer and also helping a med anthro with his office work. After that I will have a better idea of what the life of a med anthropologist is like and if I want to follow that path. I'm also planning on talking to the aforementioned graduates. If I decide to pursue an MD/PhD I would love, love to go to Harvard but I would be ecstatic to get into any MSTP program, obviously. They are ridiculously competitive though so I don't know if I will have a flicker of a chance.

 

[omam]

Their match list is phenomenal. What I noticed though was that there was less variation in Stanford's vs. Yale's. Yale sent kids to a variety of places, both above and below Stanford's list (some make it, some choose not to, I guess). Stanford on the other hand had like 53/86 staying in California (I think like 30-something are staying at Stanford, with the rest at the UCs). Yale, however had its own contingency of UCSFs, along with a horde of Yale-New Haven, and actually similar number of MGH/Brigham (17 Yale, 16 Stanford). More New York schools, though, with a bunch of people at NY-Presb. Ironically, only one Yale grad is going to Stanford and only one Stanford grad is going to Yale for residency (they must be really different )

Haha...yeah, I don't think there is much of a difference (although for the sake of arguing, you could compare the percentage of people getting their top choice; I think Stanford is 75% see wikipedia ) In any case, it seems Stanford is at no disadvantage from its lack of clinical grading...

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

I´m not applying for a little while still. I'm doing some fairly intensive med anthro research this summer and also helping a med anthro with his office work. After that I will have a better idea of what the life of a med anthropologist is like and if I want to follow that path. I'm also planning on talking to the aforementioned graduates. If I decide to pursue an MD/PhD I would love, love to go to Harvard but I would be ecstatic to get into any MSTP program, obviously. They are ridiculously competitive though so I don't know if I will have a flicker of a chance.

Mmm, tell me about it. That said, I guess I read the same thing from UCSF/USB that you did and drew a different conclusion from it (that you weren't guaranteed funding all 7 years). Also, I know that schools reserve a few MSTP spots for late-comer MD-crossovers (someone on the Yale board told me about 3-4) so I figured there was no point in unnecessarily throwing myself into the MSTP spot (since there are some serious all-stars) and go for MD instead since I wouldn't be getting funding for my first two preclinical years anyway (and apply once in, with delayed funding for PhD portion). Well, I'll be asking billions of people about this at the meet-and-greet this weekend, so I'll let you know what they say.

PS: CtrlAltDel, Nata, Omam, am I gonna see you at the thing this Saturday or at either Second Look Weekends?

 

[omam]

PS: CtrlAltDel, Nata, Omam, am I gonna see you at the thing this Saturday or at either Second Look Weekends?

Yes, I will be in NY this weekend!

 

[altctrldel]

i can't make it for the luncheon (currently in CA), but i'm planning to fly out for second week april 24-25!

 

[Drogba]

Mmm, tell me about it. That said, I guess I read the same thing from UCSF/USB that you did and drew a different conclusion from it (that you weren't guaranteed funding all 7 years). Also, I know that schools reserve a few MSTP spots for late-comer MD-crossovers (someone on the Yale board told me about 3-4) so I figured there was no point in unnecessarily throwing myself into the MSTP spot (since there are some serious all-stars) and go for MD instead since I wouldn't be getting funding for my first two preclinical years anyway (and apply once in, with delayed funding for PhD portion). Well, I'll be asking billions of people about this at the meet-and-greet this weekend, so I'll let you know what they say.

PS: CtrlAltDel, Nata, Omam, am I gonna see you at the thing this Saturday or at either Second Look Weekends?

I look forward to hearing what you learn.

As you can see from that excerpt the MSTP funding full subsidizes your MD and the first two years of your PhD. You have to apply for competitive funding for the rest of your PhD but that's no big deal. In addition to tuition and fees you also receive a fairly decent stipend. These programs are second to none if you can get in.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

I look forward to hearing what you learn.

As you can see from that excerpt the MSTP funding full subsidizes your MD and the first two years of your PhD. You have to apply for competitive funding for the rest of your PhD but that's no big deal. In addition to tuition and fees you also receive a fairly decent stipend. These programs are second to none if you can get in.

Agreed. http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2005/Apr8_2005/education.shtml
I can't find my interview booklet (which it doesn't matter I guess, since I didn't get in ) but apparently, Harvard's thing isn't MSTP any more. That said, I'll see if I can find it for you, but my packet mentioned no $$ support for the MD portion.

Yes, I will be in NY this weekend!

i can't make it for the luncheon (currently in CA), but i'm planning to fly out for second week april 24-25!

Excellent! Want my contact info? Also, how are you guys juggling both Second Weeks? Yale is 24-25 and Stanford is 25-27...
I'm considering leaving Yale the evening of 25, missing 25th of Stanford, but sticking around for 26, 27...

Oh, and these are some old threads with more info:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=387268
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=49052
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=9659

The older ones less so, because they were made in 2001 and 2002, I think, before Yale built TAC and Stanford got on probation and cleaned up their act.

 

[Drogba]

Agreed. http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2005/Apr8_2005/education.shtml
I can't find my interview booklet (which it doesn't matter I guess, since I didn't get in ) but apparently, Harvard's thing isn't MSTP any more. That said, I'll see if I can find it for you, but my packet mentioned no $$ support for the MD portion.

Oh my god. That SUCKS. It didn't last very long ;[. They only accept a couple of MD/PhD in med anthros per year, maybe they will cover it themselves soon. If harvard lost its social science MSTP funding then every is probably going to use this. I'm going to talk to my school's MSTP director as soon as possible. I will be very disappointed if this is indeed the case and it is definite. I was also under the impression that schools, and not the goverment, decided if they wanted to use their MSTP funding for social scientist or not, but I could mistaken.

 

[omam]

Excellent! Want my contact info? Also, how are you guys juggling both Second Weeks? Yale is 24-25 and Stanford is 25-27...
I'm considering leaving Yale the evening of 25, missing 25th of Stanford, but sticking around for 26, 27...

Oh, and these are some old threads with more info:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=387268
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=49052
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=9659

The older ones less so, because they were made in 2001 and 2002, I think, before Yale built TAC and Stanford got on probation and cleaned up their act.

Sure, PM away. Btw, do you know whats in the pipeline in terms of an overhaul of Stanford Med's facilities? When I was at the interview I noticed construction but was too zoned out to ask questions about it.

 

[TheRealMD]

I always thought Harvard had a money tree. Guess I was wrong...

 

[omam]

The older ones less so, because they were made in 2001 and 2002, I think, before Yale built TAC and Stanford got on probation and cleaned up their act.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is TAC? And could you be more specific about how Stanford has made improvements?

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Oh my god. That SUCKS. It didn't last very long ;[. They only accept a couple of MD/PhD in med anthros per year, maybe they will cover it themselves soon. If harvard lost its social science MSTP funding then every is probably going to use this. I'm going to talk to my school's MSTP director as soon as possible. I will be very disappointed if this is indeed the case and it is definite. I was also under the impression that schools, and not the goverment, decided if they wanted to use their MSTP funding for social scientist or not, but I could mistaken.

I myself was pretty saddened. Again, I'm not 100% certain, but according to my friend, this whole fiscal tightening (again, won't go into politics) thing will hit social scientists first, since you need basic sciences anyways. Well, in all honesty, the basic sciences are suffering monstrously from the cuts too, so who's to say anyone's in worse shape?

Sure, PM away. Btw, do you know whats in the pipeline in terms of an overhaul of Stanford Med's facilities? When I was at the interview I noticed construction but was too zoned out to ask questions about it.

Well, the building right outside will be the new classroom building. Unfortunately, it won't be done until our fourth years (if you go the standard 4 year track). Yale's been doing some work too, in case you were curious-- they just bought out the Bayer Center and are absorbing it into their empire. No idea what the stuff they're doing behind TAC is though...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is TAC? And could you be more specific about how Stanford has made improvements?

No problem. I was using shorthand, I guess. TAC = The Anlyan Center. Built in 04, I think, it's primarily a massive research structure, but houses a bunch of the classrooms as well as the new anatomy labs. The anatomy labs are one-of-a-kind: third floor, nice view of downtown New Haven, drop down computers, etc. They also have that newfangled ventilation system that sucks up paraformaldehyde right away so you don't smell/breathe it. The whole building is like 6 floors I think and houses most of the immunology dept. I know my PI had the choice of moving there, but chose not to. Really snazzy, I know when we were underclassmen we'd all tried to get into labs there
As for Stanford, I'm unclear of the actual story, but in the early 2000s/late 1990s their program was falling behind. Their facilities for students were crumbling and the school actually was put on probation by some regulatory agency for failing to meet certain educational requirements. Sadly, this seems to have been only in neglect of their med students, because their research facilities were still among the best in the nation. After this warning, though, they really cleaned up their act and went all-out to improve the quality of their student facilities (did some building, relocation, massive curricular reorganization, etc.). It's weird for me, because a lot of the 6th year MD/PhDs and some faculty here still think Stanford's like that, and I have to tell them the contrary... if anyone knows better, please enlighten us!

 

[Drogba]

I myself was pretty saddened. Again, I'm not 100% certain, but according to my friend, this whole fiscal tightening (again, won't go into politics) thing will hit social scientists first, since you need basic sciences anyways. Well, in all honesty, the basic sciences are suffering monstrously from the cuts too, so who's to say anyone's in worse shape?

Well, the building right outside will be the new classroom building. Unfortunately, it won't be done until our fourth years (if you go the standard 4 year track). Yale's been doing some work too, in case you were curious-- they just bought out the Bayer Center and are absorbing it into their empire. No idea what the stuff they're doing behind TAC is though...

You know, I recently read that NIH funding is set to increase. It hasn't been increased in 5 years and yet these social science MSTP programs have been founded in that time. It doesn't make sense that they would be cut if NIH funding was increaseing unless they are restructuring the disbursements. If I don't have funding I'm almost certainly not applying MD/PhD.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

You know, I recently read that NIH funding is set to increase. It hasn't been increased in 5 years and yet these social science MSTP programs have been founded in that time. It doesn't make sense that they would be cut if NIH funding was increaseing unless they are restructuring the disbursements. If I don't have funding I'm almost certainly not applying MD/PhD.

Thank goodness! Taken them long enough-- I know PIs left and right have been pulling their hair out over this. I'm frankly amazed that Yale managed to get HHMI for the 4th? term running.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is TAC? And could you be more specific about how Stanford has made improvements?

TAC explained above,

Ah, here we go-
Before: http://daily.stanford.edu/article/1999/4/6/medSchoolBarelyEscapesProbation
(wow, scary)

After: (taken from Ami Laws, a Stanford-area practitioner and Wikipedia)
Controversies
In 1998, after numerous complaints from students, the national agency that accredits medical schools came close to placing Stanford's School of Medicine on probation. The school received a letter (Feb. 17th) from Donald Kassebaum, MD, secretary of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) accrediting agency, stating that "Stanford has a fine medical school, and its graduates are splendid. [But] no school of the standing and quality and affluence of Stanford has instructional facilities that bad,".

In response, Stanford approved a $185 million, five-year plan to improve the School of Medicine and to address other issues brought up by students in 1999. Three months prior to the next visit from the accrediting agency (2005) various committees were formed to help the School of Medicine pass. A group of retired members of the LCME were recruited by Oscar Salvatierra, M.D., former professor of Transplantation and Nephrology. The committee on clinical training headed by Myriam Curet, M.D. Professor of general surgery, reviewed clerkship evaluations by medical students and issued recommendations. Subsequently, the medical school passed the accrediting agency visit with flying colors.

 

[omam]

)
In 1998, after numerous complaints from students, the national agency that accredits medical schools came close to placing Stanford's School of Medicine on probation. The school received a letter (Feb. 17th) from Donald Kassebaum, MD, secretary of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) accrediting agency, stating that "Stanford has a fine medical school, and its graduates are splendid. [But] no school of the standing and quality and affluence of Stanford has instructional facilities that bad,".

In response, Stanford approved a $185 million, five-year plan to improve the School of Medicine and to address other issues brought up by students in 1999. Three months prior to the next visit from the accrediting agency (2005) various committees were formed to help the School of Medicine pass. A group of retired members of the LCME were recruited by Oscar Salvatierra, M.D., former professor of Transplantation and Nephrology. The committee on clinical training headed by Myriam Curet, M.D. Professor of general surgery, reviewed clerkship evaluations by medical students and issued recommendations. Subsequently, the medical school passed the accrediting agency visit with flying colors.

Hmmm...The teaching facilities seemed ok to me when I visited, so either they did make improvements or it wasn't that bad to begin with. The library wasn't that great but whatever.

Beautiful campus overall though. And the location and weather are just leagues above New Haven.

 

[OncDoc19]

Ok, Drogba asked me to post in this thread. AvengingNarwhal, I am an MD/PhD applicant this year for history of science and medicine. First, there has been discussion of med anthro program so I wanted to share this link. http://www.physicianscientists.org/T...SSH/index.html This is from the American Physician Scientist Association. It is a listing of programs that support MD/PhDs in the social sciences. You can also take a look at my MDApps for a list of schools that considered my non-trad app.

Second, in regards to Harvard, when I interviewed there this year I was told that the program is partially funded. Your tuition of the first 2 years of MD is paid for, but no stipend. The PhD is funded according to your department. The last two years of MD is tuition-paid plus stipend. Also, there will be a new director next year as Allan Brandt is now the Dean of the Graduate College. You have to apply separately to the medical school and your grad dept and be accepted by both in the same year to get funding. Needless to say this can be difficult.

For your interests, if you don't mind pursuing the PhD outside of an MSTP, I would recommend Stanford. You should do the PhD at UCSF. They have a great med anthro program plus a dept of social medicine.

I think this thread, unfortunately, is a sad testament to what little information is out there for people interested in humanities or social sciences MD/PhD programs. There are definitely supportive programs out there but it takes so much research on the applicant's part. For anyone who reads this who is considering applying to such a program I would highly recommend not just looking at MSTP program websites to try to find out which programs will consider your app. Just start calling up every medical school MD/PhD office you would consider attending and ask if they have your desired program. I found a lot of programs this way. In fact, one of my acceptances (UCLA) is from a school that does not advertise their willingness to take humanities students on their website. Also, check out my response to this person's question http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=505020.

Oh and one last comment about funding. It is entirely up to the program as to what students they take. It is NOT dictated by the government. It is certainly possible to gain acceptance into an MSTP as a humanities/social sciences application, I'm proof of that. Is it easy, not at all. But yes, it's doable.

Third, I did interview at Yale so I can comment a bit on their history of medicine department since it seems you are thinking you may be interesting in the field. The department is strong but with the small faculty it's strength varies considerably by field. You said you might consider applying MD/PhD second cycle. This is risky of course, but would give you full funding. There are actually a lot of medical student pursuing PhD's at Yale outside the bounds of the MSTP, so you wouldn't be alone. In fact, in the history of medicine dept there are currently 2 such students.

 

[omam]

Hoping someone can weigh in on this. I'm really interested in clinical epi (Infectious Disease) and also outcomes research, more broadly. It seems like YALE would be stronger for this. Can anyone comment?

 

[Drogba]

OncDoc,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post this. That website you linked to was the one I read some time ago that alerted me to some of the MSTP programs I was not aware of. Contacting departments directly regardless of whether they advertise joint programs is good advice. Do you mind discussing your humanities research a bit?

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Agreed. Thanks a bunch Onc, and congratulations on the Gates! That's absolutely fabulous (sorry, couldn't help but peek into your MDApps profile )

For my end, I suppose I've done more data-mining by talking to current MD/PhD students I know. From what I've heard, Yale is pretty tough to get MSTP for Anthro (there was one a few years ago, but the process is pretty circuitous) since the anthro dept is kinda small and focused more on archeology and functional anthro (evolution) than medicine. Sociology, I have no idea, since the focus is more on WGS and China (no idea why we're so obsessed with China).

Hoping someone can weigh in on this. I'm really interested in clinical epi (Infectious Disease) and also outcomes research, more broadly. It seems like YALE would be stronger for this. Can anyone comment?

I know Yale has some really big-name people in this department (e.g. Gerald Friedland ) but Stanford has its own division for Health Policy and Health Care Research, which could be really cool. I'm not going into Epi myself, but it's a fascinating and truly worthy subject of study. That said, Yale has a PH/Epi school right next door to its SOM, making it pretty easy to just go downstairs from Harkness and talking to someone there.

 

[Drogba]

Agreed. Thanks a bunch Onc, and congratulations on the Gates! That's absolutely fabulous (sorry, couldn't help but peek into your MDApps profile )

For my end, I suppose I've done more data-mining by talking to current MD/PhD students I know. From what I've heard, Yale is pretty tough to get MSTP for Anthro (there was one a few years ago, but the process is pretty circuitous) since the anthro dept is kinda small and focused more on archeology and functional anthro (evolution) than medicine. Sociology, I have no idea, since the focus is more on WGS and China (no idea why we're so obsessed with China).

I know Yale has some really big-name people in this department (e.g. Gerald Friedland ) but Stanford has its own division for Health Policy and Health Care Research, which could be really cool. I'm not going into Epi myself, but it's a fascinating and truly worthy subject of study. That said, Yale has a PH/Epi school right next door to its SOM, making it pretty easy to just go downstairs from Harkness and talking to someone there.

Maybe this has something to do with Yale's connection to the Rockafeller Foundations program in north china in the 1930s(?). They trained some chinese dude who went on to found some programs there and I think developed institutional ties with Yale. This is probably not why but I thought I'd toss out that obscure historical reference.

 

[AvengingNarwhal]

Hmmm...The teaching facilities seemed ok to me when I visited, so either they did make improvements or it wasn't that bad to begin with. The library wasn't that great but whatever.

Beautiful campus overall though. And the location and weather are just leagues above New Haven.

Palo Alto weather is simply sublime (not a fan of the surrounding 'burbs though... Spent all my childhood in a similar setting). I like the seasons though (was raised in the West) and NYC isn't too far. I could see myself swapping it for SF though. As for the facilities, I'm almost certain they were built after the probation scare and I didn't see any problems with them myself (though the anatomy labs are still underground )

Maybe this has something to do with Yale's connection to the Rockafeller Foundations program in north china in the 1930s(?). They trained some chinese dude who went on to found some programs there and I think developed institutional ties with Yale. This is probably not why but I thought I'd toss out that obscure historical reference.

Interesting... Didn't know this myself. Man... I really wish some Stanford folks could comment, since I feel like I only know half the story :/

 

[OncDoc19]

OncDoc,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post this. That website you linked to was the one I read some time ago that alerted me to some of the MSTP programs I was not aware of. Contacting departments directly regardless of whether they advertise joint programs is good advice. Do you mind discussing your humanities research a bit?

Sure, my research in undergrad has been varied in the fields of 19th and 20th century western medicine. I did a project on syphilis, prostitution and public health law in Victorian England, one on sources of medical authority in the US in the 1950's (used an cancer drug as a case study), and one on quack remedies in relation to treatments for the deaf between 1910 and 1940. However, looking ahead to graduate school, my research will focus on post-WWII era history of cancer (mostly in the US and UK). The project I pitched for the Gates (thanks Avenging!) is a study of cancer services in the UK in the last 20 years. I want to look at the role of health services information dissemination through specialist media (journals, conferences, pharmaceutical pamphlets, etc) in the changing uses of chemotherapy, surgery and radiation therapy during this time period. My hope is that this project will be applicable to public policy.

As a side note, even though I wasn't asked about this I will say that I think it really helped me with both MSTP and the Gates that my research focuses on recent history and does aim to impact policy. It makes it an easier sell I think.

 

[loomis]

I can't speak for Stanford because I didn't interview there, but I did hear from students at other med schools that the Stanford non-grading system in the clinical years was a major disadvantage to the students there and that it would not be in their favor when applying for residencies.

I guess my opinion is biased towards Yale but that's my two cents. Good luck in your decision!

hi there!
i'm a stanford student...actually just graduated last week! you have a great choice between yale and stanford and i was in a similar boat with you several years ago. first off, the good news is that you are in a win-win situation....either place will land you at a great residency and give you tons of opportunities. now for my own 2 cents:

(1) stanford 4 year pass/fail: i too was worried about this but having just gone through the match i can honestly say that having pass/fail during your clinical years was....genius. by the time you are in clinics, most students are self motivated so it's terrific to not have to freak out about grades and just focus on learning without the warning "stick" of grades looming over you. i felt very comfortable clinically...i did several aways and felt confident compared to the other students.......it is unfair though because you will NOT be freaking out at the end of the month worrying if you'll honor or not

(2) residency placement: i was scared big time that being pass/fail all 4 years would put us at a big disadvantage for residencies....but i was stunned by how well our class did. you can check out the match list at med.stanford.edu. basically...a large group stayed at stanford/ucsf and 16 of us (myself included) are headed to the harvard hospitals. the regional bias is due partially because a huge group of people never want to leave california. i mean i'm from the east coast but was so torn because i absolutely fell in love with the west coast. this is a really great part of the country. i really would like to come back one day

(3) one drawback to having no grades is that programs DO place an emphasis on your step 1 scores....so it is stressful there. when i was interviewing, program directors did mention that to me. but the good news is that we have literally an unlimited time window to take it.....while most take it after studying one month, others take more (or less). we also have a great support network including a free prep class, free access to online questions, etc,etc. two years ago we had the highest board scores in the country (236).

(4) public health: berkeley is great and many students do that option. however, you are NOT limited to berkeley....several of my classmates did their MPH at columbia, harvard, and hopkins...

good luck with your choice. you'll do great at either place. hope you join the stanford family next fall!!!

 

[loomis]

Palo Alto weather is simply sublime (not a fan of the surrounding 'burbs though... Spent all my childhood in a similar setting). I like the seasons though (was raised in the West) and NYC isn't too far. I could see myself swapping it for SF though. As for the facilities, I'm almost certain they were built after the probation scare and I didn't see any problems with them myself (though the anatomy labs are still underground )


Interesting... Didn't know this myself. Man... I really wish some Stanford folks could comment, since I feel like I only know half the story :/

it is true to a degree.....the library is not hot. i love stanford but i have to be honest. lane is very so-so.....old facilities and not a super great place to study. but the good news:
-the study spaces and classrooms have all been upgraded within the last 3 years....all super nice and all tech-savvy enhanced...as a silicon valley hub should be
-the main campus with gorgeous libraries are a short walk/bike away. i loved studying under the great study hall at green library or the law library.
-the best thing: stanford is in the process of building a new student education building....and it is going to be amazing....virtual hospital/operating rooms for med students, hotel like call rooms, a NICE library. i know....maybe i'm drinking the Kool-aid at this place. but check out the link below on the building. hopefully it should be finished by march (2010). quite awhile...but it's being built now and YOU will be the first generation senior med students to be able to use those facilities. hope this helps!

http://lkc.stanford.edu/