Yet another Back-to-Canada thread!

[deschutes]

Yes I promise I've read old threads, but I figure I wasn't going to get a specific answer unless I supplied my specific situation...

I am a non-US/non-Canadian citizen. Graduated from U of C and passed MCCQE Part I. Couldn't stay in Canada for residency because of my citizenship status.

So in the manner of all good stories, I opted to do residency in the US. Passed USMLE Steps 1, 2 and am en route to taking Step 3.

I am attempting to plan my return to Canada, post-residency/fellowship. I was encouraged to apply for landed immigrant status and am perfectly willing to do that.

In terms of what has to be done:-

I understand that the MCC and the RCPSC are separate entities.

Now, ACGME-accredited pathology residencies in the US do not require an internship year.

I phoned the Royal College and the lady told me that this is fine, this would not count against me in my Royal College "preliminary assessment".

I hate to sound so sceptical, but can she be believed?
It seems sometimes that there is a whole lot of hearsay going on, especially from the perspective of someone not in the country.

The Royal College website states that:

"Applicants with qualifications from medical schools other than those accredited by the Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools or the Liaison Committee on Medical Education must have succeeded at one of the following screening examinations:

Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Examinations (MCCEE)
Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examinations, Parts 1 and 2 (MCCQE)
United States Medical Licensing Examination, Parts 1, 2 and 3 (USMLE)"

Being a Canadian grad, I am LCME-accredited; I am currently in an ACGME-accredited residency. But if I play along - does this mean that the Royal College is willing to accept the USMLE in place of the MCCQE for US-trained docs?

I spoke to a US-trained pathologist at my med school in Canada, and she encouraged me to take Part II.

I do not mind taking Part II, except for one thing - I looked at the MCCQE Part II requirements, and it states that documentation of the 12-month postgrad clinical medicine training has to be provided.

My residency so far has been in hematopathology, and transfusion medicine. It was not and will never be in Ob/Gyn, IM, Surgery, Family Med etc.

Is MCC even going to let me have a crack at this exam or are they going to reject my application because I don't have the "required rotations" despite fulfilling the 12-month postgrad clinical medicine training?

I realize I will not know until I try, but really, any teeny bit of information helps.

To summarize, my questions are:

(1) Can the anonymous phone lady at RCPSC be believed? (or, is there any way of ensuring the reliability of info supposedly provided by RCPSC staff?)
(2) Do I (should I) take MCCQE Part II if I have USMLE Steps 1 through 3 as well as MCCQE Part I under my belt?
(3) Will MCC let me take Part II without a so-called "rotating internship" year?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[docbill]

I can't answer all your questions. Sorry.

However I believe if you did USMLE 1,2,3 (new exams) and ACGME residency in the US, you can get practice rights in Ontario without taking Canadian exams.

Once you get Residency in Canada you should be able to resolve the problem. But may need to be registered in US college of your specialty and maybe do 1 year training (as in Quebec).

 

[deschutes]

Thanks to those who responded and sent me info. Like I said, every little bit helps!

Yes, being a 2005 grad I did take Step 2 CS. Flew down to Houston and I swear I acquired a Southern accent by the fourth station.

 

[NewCanadian]

............
I phoned the Royal College and the lady told me that this is fine, this would not count against me in my Royal College "preliminary assessment".
...I hate to sound so sceptical, but can she be believed?...
To summarize, my questions are:

(1) Can the anonymous phone lady at RCPSC be believed? (or, is there any way of ensuring the reliability of info supposedly provided by RCPSC staff?)
(2) Do I (should I) take MCCQE Part II if I have USMLE Steps 1 through 3 as well as MCCQE Part I under my belt?
(3) Will MCC let me take Part II without a so-called "rotating internship" year?

Can the RCPSC staff be trusted?
Yes. Would you pose the same question of the American Board of Pathology?
Apart from the cynical skepticism, the RCPSC is THE organization that will assess your U.S. training. Whether or not you will trust them is up to you. If the credentials unit said not having a preliminary year would not count against you then they are telling you the truth.


Will the MCC let you take MCC QE Part II?
Yes. The requirement is 12 months of supervised clinical training.
The reason they ask for those rotations is because the test is about material from across medical specialties. If you haven't covered the material, it is possible you would not pass the exam without a lot of hard studying.

Medical licensure in Ontario
Certification with the RCPSC is now optional as opposed to required. If you pursued an ACGME accredited program and have a diploma from an American Board then you can obtain a medical licence to practice in Ontario.
Having the Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada is now optional as opposed to required. If you have all USMLE exams plus ECFMG certification, you can obtain a medical licence to practice in Ontario.

There is good reason to take the MCC QE II. If you want to be mobile across Canada, ie, practice your specialty in any province or territory (except Quebec), get an independent / unrestricted medical licence by obtaining both RCPSC and LMCC.

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Your quote from the RCPSC is not relevant to your situation: the quote refers to medical schools outside Canada/US.

 

[deschutes]

Would you pose the same question of the American Board of Pathology? Whether or not you will trust them is up to you. If the credentials unit said not having a preliminary year would not count against you then they are telling you the truth.

What I probably did not communicate very effectively was that it wasn't my scepticism at the competence of the RCPSC and staff, but the verbal nature of the information given (i.e. as opposed to in writing).

I was simply playing out the following scenario in my mind:

Say for instance in 4 years I am questioned as to why I believed a preliminary year would not count against me -
"Um, well, I phoned them 4 years ago and this was what they told me..."
"Who is this 'they' you speak of?"
"It was a lady, but I didn't get her name."
"Well, we don't have any women in the credentialling unit now so I don't know who you could be talking about, and at any rate the information you have is wrong - too bad you're not coming back here HA HA Plllbbbt!"

It isn't an anti-Royal College (or any other national accreditation board) sentiment - it's just that I've learnt that until any information is signed and sealed, any sort of change can happen.

Your quote from the RCPSC is not relevant to your situation: the quote refers to medical schools outside Canada/US.

Yes I realize that, it was simply that I was hard-pressed to find anything else that indicated recognition of the USMLE on that webpage.

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btw please excuse the ridiculous avatar, everyone - I was trying to prove a point on another forum.

 

[docbill]

Message Deleted by me. I must of been drinking when I posted it.

 

[NewCanadian]

.... my scepticism at ...verbal nature of the information given (i.e. as opposed to in writing).

......too bad you're not coming back here HA HA Plllbbbt!"

...... - it's just that I've learnt that until any information is signed and sealed, any sort of change can happen.

Fair enough. Official confirmation is valuable. If I might make a suggestion... perhaps it would do no harm to ask the RCPSC credentials unit to put something in writing about the "basic clinical year"?

I have noticed a lot of fear and uncertainty about the notion that once one leaves Canada to attend medical school, and then attends postgraduate training in the United States, that is impossible to return to Canada. Some repeat what their friends have said and perpetuate the myth that practising medicine in Canada is then impossible. I am convinced that this is not true.

Some harbour a bitterness about not having been accepted by a Canadian medical school and use that attitude to make the decision that they will never go back to Canada, thus closing the door themselves.

It isn't easy to navigate through the licencing system in Canada, yet it can be done.

 

[deschutes]

perhaps it would do no harm to ask the RCPSC credentials unit to put something in writing about the "basic clinical year"?

Yes, having had a think I really believe that would be the most sensible thing to do.

I'm in agreement with you on many counts. I might not have gone the route that you mention (i.e. med school out of the country, therefore "must" stay out of the country), but I've run into a similar situation:-

I went to U of C for med school as a non-Canadian, like some others have before me - I was told my only option to do residency in Canada was to pay a 5-digit sum of money to the university for every year of the residency.

Thus it became the custom for the more ambitious non-Canadian folks to do residency in the US on a J-1.

When I inquired about post-residency/fellowship plans (since us J-1s would have to leave the US), a few of those who went before me said that it was "painful" to try to get back into Canada. (I do not know of any of these people who have succeeded - but then again I do not know of anyone who has tried.)

Sure we can speculate why these people say what they do, but I don't really care. Having had addresses in 3 countries in the last 4 years, I believe more and more strongly that the simple cliche - know what you want, and make it happen - is true.

Clearly it will take a lot of pre-planning. But doing residency in the US takes pre-planning (especially in a 3-year MD program), so I don't know why this would be an issue.

This is not necessary a criticism of the Canadian medical education system. As I explained many times on my residency interviews jaunt throughout the US, the States wins out in terms of sheer number of residency positions.

In 2003, CaRMS involved 13 schools, 1317 positions and 1231 applicants.

In 2003, the NRMP enrolled 3,719 programs in the match, which altogether offered 23,365 positions. A total of 31,004 applicants participated in the Match. Of those, 15,101 were 2003 graduates of accredited U.S. medical schools and 15,903 were Independent Applicants.​

Message Deleted by me. I must of been drinking when I posted it.

Rats! I didn't get to see it Send me a PM maybe?

~
Why are there two hundred and sixty-one pageviews of my little thread?

 

[bedardjames]

http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/openletter.htm

 

[NewCanadian]

The site contains a number of false facts and misleading opinions. Why? What is the author's agenda?

Two of them:

[1] Quote "Ontario residents: Keep in mind that you cannot return to your home province initially. You have to go to another province first and then work your way back to Ontario via reciprocity. "

"...you cannot return to your home province initially..."
Yes, you can. After completing a residency in the US, a specialist / family physician does not have to work in another province before working in Ontario. The CPSO licensing committee can and does issue practice certificates for US trained doctors.

"...work your way back via reciprocity.."
Where is 'recipro city'? near Vancouver?

[2] Quote "Now after you complete all this and go back to Canada, you must write all the Canadian board exams in order to obtain a license to practice medicine in Canada."
False. All licensing authorities have a process to issue a practice certificate to US trained doctors and these authorities have been issuing such certificates for some time.

 

[jave]

The site contains a number of false facts and misleading opinions. Why? What is the author's agenda?

Two of them:

[1] Quote "Ontario residents: Keep in mind that you cannot return to your home province initially. You have to go to another province first and then work your way back to Ontario via reciprocity. "

"...you cannot return to your home province initially..."
Yes, you can. After completing a residency in the US, a specialist / family physician does not have to work in another province before working in Ontario. The CPSO licensing committee can and does issue practice certificates for US trained doctors.

I will give you US$ 2000 dollars for your time plus whatever you spent for the registration and application fees (properly receipted of course) if you can act as the processor for my application for an unrestricted Ontario medical licence payable on the day I actually receive the licence or notice (this is 500 dollars more than what licencing services here in the U.S. charge.) in addition you can post here how you went about the process to educate those who may wish to go about the process. If you can't get me an unrestricted ontario licence you will give me US$ 1000 dollars plus whatever you spent for the application fees and for my time. We can set up a CIBC escrow account (I.E. I will deposit 2000 U.S.$, you depositg U.S. $ 1000 in an account at CIBC that neither of us can touch until the above terms have been met)

"...work your way back via reciprocity.."
Where is 'recipro city'? near Vancouver?

[2] Quote "Now after you complete all this and go back to Canada, you must write all the Canadian board exams in order to obtain a license to practice medicine in Canada."
False. All licensing authorities have a process to issue a practice certificate to US trained doctors and these authorities have been issuing such certificates for some time.

My details: I graduated from medical school outside North America, I have unrestricted licensure in 2 states, have US Board certification (meaning I have had U.S. ACGME accredited residency else I would not have been allowed to take the certifying exam), 5 years experience and am a Canadian citizen.

Email me at [email protected] as to where I can send the application forms and other paperwork needed.

 

[NewCanadian]

..Email me at [email protected] as to where I can send the application forms and other paperwork needed.

Application and paperwork for what, exactly?

Postscript
I see the poster added text within the quote of a previous post.
The added text offers money to perform the task of registration (licensure), a task for which an individual is entirely responsible.

 

[bulgethetwine]

The site contains a number of false facts and misleading opinions. Why? What is the author's agenda?

Two of them:

[1] Quote "Ontario residents: Keep in mind that you cannot return to your home province initially. You have to go to another province first and then work your way back to Ontario via reciprocity. "

"...you cannot return to your home province initially..."
Yes, you can. After completing a residency in the US, a specialist / family physician does not have to work in another province before working in Ontario. The CPSO licensing committee can and does issue practice certificates for US trained doctors.

"...work your way back via reciprocity.."
Where is 'recipro city'? near Vancouver?

[2] Quote "Now after you complete all this and go back to Canada, you must write all the Canadian board exams in order to obtain a license to practice medicine in Canada."
False. All licensing authorities have a process to issue a practice certificate to US trained doctors and these authorities have been issuing such certificates for some time.

I am sorry New Canadian -- you are incorrect in this regard. While there is a mechanism in place for licensing authorities to issue a practice cert to US trained doctors, they are, in fact, VERY RETICENT to do this. I do not mean to flame you, but you have an overly rosy view of how readily the Canadian system lets doctors back in.

 

[NewCanadian]

I am sorry New Canadian -- you are incorrect in this regard. While there is a mechanism in place for licensing authorities to issue a practice cert to US trained doctors, they are, in fact, VERY RETICENT to do this. I do not mean to flame you, but you have an overly rosy view of how readily the Canadian system lets doctors back in.

And you flamed anyway.

Sure the medical licensing system is difficult. The previous comments were about false facts on a specific site, not about the Canadian system.

 

[jave]

Application and paperwork for what, exactly?

Postscript
I see the poster added text within the quote of a previous post.
The added text offers money to perform the task of registration (licensure), a task for which an individual is entirely responsible.

New Canadian
Since it seemed to me from your posts here that you are knowledgeable about the registraton/licensure process for IMG's in Ontario at present and having gone through that useless process 6 years ago without success maybe you can do what I failed to do 6 years ago. Again there are services in the U.S. (look at the Classifieds section of the NEJM) that do the scutwork of having the paperwork shepherded through the process, i.e. it is entirely administrative and merely involves ensuring all the paperwork needed is there, the paperwork needed from one licencing jurisdiction gets to where it's needed in a timely manner, the right fees are paid, the phonecalls are made to ensure the application is moving along and not sitting on somepaperpusher's desk, etc. which would take away a lot of time that would be better spent on seeing patients. I think I have met all the requirements they are asking now but I don't have the time now I had 6 years ago. As for the paperwork and applications I meant the applications and paperwork for getting an unrestircted Ontario licence/registration to practise medicine.
I added the text to the quotes from th previous post like am doing now and I am still offering the money if you still care to do it and better educate the psoters and readers in this forum about the process.

 

[NewCanadian]

There is no way I would even entertain the thought of accepting money from an anonymous poster on a public message board.

 

[bulgethetwine]

There is no way I would even entertain the thought of accepting money from an anonymous poster on a public message board.

New Canadian: Sorry. Didn't mean to direct my exasperation with the Canadian system on you.

Likewise on the thought of accepting (or paying $$$) to such a source to anything related to immigration/licensing issues....

 

[jave]

There is no way I would even entertain the thought of accepting money from an anonymous poster on a public message board.

New Canadian
once we set up the CIBC escrow account you and I will no longer be anonymous to each other (I hope you understand what an escrow account is?)and as I said I am Canadian and have no need for Canadian immigration paperwork. I really thought that you knew how to do what you've posted has been done by actual people but with all your excuses above, I guess not. Now is there an experienced American immigration lawyer here who can get me my green card faster than the one I have who is doing it now?