You know what I decided really irritates me?

[Buckeye(OH)]

The fact that the associate dean keeps telling us that in the whole scheme of things for getting into residency, grades are at the bottom of the pile.


FINE, be that as it may be, first year medical students don't have much else to shoot for since boards are still a year away. If I want to make my grades my top priority now, whats the ****ing problem? I mean telling kids that kind of stuff is like a license to slack off. And it makes those people that are getting good grades feel like they are doing it for nothing, which I hardly believe.

I would like to think theres a correlation between ones grades and ones COMLEX/USMLE scores.

I dont really have a question or anything but I just wanted to see if this would rub anyone else the wrong way.


Back to studying for my three tests and one quiz this week (no its not finals)

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[jawicobike]

If others take this information as an excuse to slack on their studies why does that concern you, unless of course you are looking out for the betterment of the entire medical field. It seems that this would enable you to get better grades because as we all know grades are all relative to those in your class.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

grades arent relative to how other people do in my class. grades are raw here. no curve, no pass/fail.

I dont think such a heavy emphasisis should be placed on the lack of emphasis put on grades.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Oh, I definatley agree they are at the bottom of the pile. But thats at the end looking back.

We are on the front end looking forward, and for right now the only thing I have to illustrate my performance, are my grades.

 

[jawicobike]

wow, no curve. I don't think I've been in a class without a curve since high school.

Personally I think you have a point, but I also think the dean has a point. 1st and 2nd year grades are important in that they force you to learn the information required for boards and I would think that they correlate pretty well, but they aren't the do all end all because they do seem to be near the bottom of the pile when you've got board scores, audition rotations, clinical grades, and all the other stuff in the CV to get you to an interview.

 

[OSUdoc08]

The fact that the associate dean keeps telling us that in the whole scheme of things for getting into residency, grades are at the bottom of the pile.


FINE, be that as it may be, first year medical students don't have much else to shoot for since boards are still a year away. If I want to make my grades my top priority now, whats the ****ing problem? I mean telling kids that kind of stuff is like a license to slack off. And it makes those people that are getting good grades feel like they are doing it for nothing, which I hardly believe.

I would like to think theres a correlation between ones grades and ones COMLEX/USMLE scores.

I dont really have a question or anything but I just wanted to see if this would rub anyone else the wrong way.


Back to studying for my three tests and one quiz this week (no its not finals)

It sounds like you are kind of bitter. Your dean is right however. Don't take it so seriously or you will burn yourself out.

 

[jawicobike]

It sounds like you are kind of bitter. Your dean is right however. Don't take it so seriously or you will burn yourself out.

We're all bitter and we are all burned out. That's one of the side effects of medical school.

 

[GregsAnatomy]

I would like to think theres a correlation between ones grades and ones COMLEX/USMLE scores.

We were told by the Kaplan folks that the following were "indicators" as to correlations to your COMLEX score....

60% medical school grades
30% test preparation
10% MCAT score

 

[Taus]

just worry about knowing the "important" information....ie keep tabs on whats important by checking brs path/first aid/etc....IMO the difference between knowing the material/passing and getting A's in med school is memorizing the bull$hit minutia and knowing how your professors like to ask questions.....that latter can bring a student up 10-20pts in my experience....if that is worth it to you then put in the time to memorize random details.......if you'll be content knowing that you "know" what you'll need for the boards and rotations...then so be it.....don't worry about the "A"

 

[OSUdoc08]

We're all bitter and we are all burned out. That's one of the side effects of medical school.

I suppose it depends on how seriously you take it.

I'm not burned out at all. I did spend all day studying in a sports bar today, however.

Pain (studying) + Pleasure (watching sports, eating chips & salsa, and knowing you will have beer served to you immediately upon finishing studying) = Contentment

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

just worry about knowing the "important" information....ie keep tabs on whats important by checking brs path/first aid/etc....IMO the difference between knowing the material/passing and getting A's in med school is memorizing the bull$hit minutia and knowing how your professors like to ask questions.....that latter can bring a student up 10-20pts in my experience....if that is worth it to you then put in the time to memorize random details.......if you'll be content knowing that you "know" what you'll need for the boards and rotations...then so be it.....don't worry about the "A"

See, unfortunately for me, I HAVE to memorize everything, otherwise I feel like I don't know anything.


And yes, I am bitter. I slog my ass all the damn time just to have someone tell me that my grades don't mean ****? I mean, if that wouldn't chap your ass, Im not sure what would.

 

[dr.z]

See, unfortunately for me, I HAVE to memorize everything, otherwise I feel like I don't know anything.


And yes, I am bitter. I slog my ass all the damn time just to have someone tell me that my grades don't mean ****? I mean, if that wouldn't chap your ass, Im not sure what would.

If grades didn't mean much, I wonder why CCOM uses numerical scores. They could have just used pass/fail system.

 

[Taus]

See, unfortunately for me, I HAVE to memorize everything, otherwise I feel like I don't know anything.


And yes, I am bitter. I slog my ass all the damn time just to have someone tell me that my grades don't mean ****? I mean, if that wouldn't chap your ass, Im not sure what would.

It would definitely piss me off to hear that all the time....I am somewhat like you though...I'm pretty nuts about studying and am not really satisfied if I don't get an A.....I know it doesn't really count for much except showing myself that my studying is paying off and makes me feel good knowing I'll have a good base for board review next year (ie won't have to learn a lot of this for the first time).... basically what I'm trying to say is that if you have the ability to get top grades in med school, w/o absolutely killing yourself for it, then by all means do what makes you happy. I agree that grades will mean relatively little for residency, but I do think developing a solid foundation of info, excellent study habits and good test taking ability during MSI will serve one well for the boards...which is what really matters....


I probably could have summed that all up by saying that yes your actual grade means jack $hit, but the info that you learned and hopefully retained mean a lot.

 

[bla_3x]

I would try very hard to take Taus' advice under advisement.
While there is no problem at all in shooting for great grades, setting a goal like you have for yourself for memorizing everything is just setting you up for A LOT of stress and trouble as the $%#^ really hits the fan next year.

A big part of being a great doc, in my mind at least, is the ability to acclimate with regards to you studying and life changes in general. The more you focus on not remembering, but “knowing” (yes there is a difference) what is truly important to your coming up with a diagnosis and plan, the easier the boards will be and the more you will truly shine on your clinicals (two of the top things to worry about in medical school).

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I would try very hard to take Taus' advice under advisement.
While there is no problem at all in shooting for great grades, setting a goal like you have for yourself for memorizing everything is just setting you up for A LOT of stress and trouble as the $%#^ really hits the fan next year.

A big part of being a great doc, in my mind at least, is the ability to acclimate with regards to you studying and life changes in general. The more you focus on not remembering, but “knowing” (yes there is a difference) what is truly important to your coming up with a diagnosis and plan, the easier the boards will be and the more you will truly shine on your clinicals (two of the top things to worry about in medical school).

Why would **** hit the fan any more than it already has? Second year at this school is reportedly lighter then first year.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

If grades didn't mean much, I wonder why CCOM uses numerical scores. They could have just used pass/fail system.

Funny thing about that. I called a very high level administrator out (I speak my mind) out one time I said, 'Hey if you guys are all about fostering a non-competitive spirit, why do you give us numerical grades. As soon as you start handing out numbers, people get competitive."

She, "replied, its for your own good."


Which, of course, I already knew. She basically gave me the run around bull **** answer and didnt answer the question

Bottom line, numerical grades = competition. Period.

 

[BklynWill]

A residency director straight-up told us that preclinical grades are an important part of the application package and are strongly considered when comparing applicants.

moral of the story: the work you put in could ultimately be worth it.

 

[bla_3x]

Why would **** hit the fan any more than it already has? Second year at this school is reportedly lighter then first year.

Then you are lucky.

In retrospect, aside from the shell shock of relizing the vast amount of material we had to learn in a short time, 1st year was a bit easier than 2nd year alone...add board prep to the mix and 2nd year becomes a very pressing time.

Also, I think I made more of 2nd year b/c what you learn is MUCH more high yield for the boards and clinicals (path/pharm/micro)

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

A residency director straight-up told us that preclinical grades are an important part of the application package and are strongly considered when comparing applicants.

moral of the story: the work you put in could ultimately be worth it.

Mind telling me where this PD was from? You can PM me if you want.

 

[USAFGMODOC]

Dude,

If you are stressing about grades and going into primary care, you are causing yourself all kinds of angst! If, on the otherhand you are trying for some ultracompetative specialty, you should be "somewhat" concerned about grades b/c it is looked at a little more.

Board scores speak volumes though so worry about the boards. Also, a piece of advice--- you can burn yourself out, become a gunner, and your fellow students will probably shun you!

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Surgery, not Primary Care.

 

[USAFGMODOC]

Surgery CAN be competative, but honestly, there are always surgery positions that don't fill so you could find one IF you really wanted to. Still, board scores are more important and so are rotations and your overall personality, so don't kill yourself in one arena to sacrifice in another....

Words of wisdom.....

 

[BklynWill]

Mind telling me where this PD was from? You can PM me if you want.

I can answer this in public without forfeiting too much anonymity; the doctor is an emergency medicine residency director in the Philadelphia region.

He said that pre-clinical grades, being part of a medical school transcript, are part of the "package", which represents the sum total of all the applicant's credentials. He stressed that if you are light in one area, you must be heavy in another.

In his opinion, the "package" includes:
Medical School transcript
National Board Scores
Letters of recommendation
"Fit" in the program
& Other Activities

I know that pre-clinical grades are important to him because he personally told me that the most important thing I should be doing right now is geting "90's".

 

[1hotaartichoke]

wow, no curve. I don't think I've been in a class without a curve since high school.

Personally I think you have a point, but I also think the dean has a point. 1st and 2nd year grades are important in that they force you to learn the information required for boards and I would think that they correlate pretty well, but they aren't the do all end all because they do seem to be near the bottom of the pile when you've got board scores, audition rotations, clinical grades, and all the other stuff in the CV to get you to an interview.

we aren't on a curve either at TUNV

 

[OHMAN0125]

Hey Buckeye,
Don't worry so much. If ur getting good grades then continue on getting them (unless you' re not sleeping..haha). They may not be the first or even second thing that is looked at on ur app, but good grades are definetly a plus and not a minus. An ortho director that talked to us said the main things they look at are ur board scores, then ur clinical surgery rotation grades, then ur 1-2 year grades and letters. So basically the grades do matter in more competitive residencies but they won't necessarily make or break you. Certainly if they see "remediation" then u might as well hang the towel for something like ortho unless ur very well connected with program directors.

 

[macman]

keep in mind that deans are not program directors and like to give pep talks to those people who may not be doing well. While grades are not the end all be all, they determine your rank, tend to indicate board performance, and some residency programs will not even interview those with low grades/boards-even though you may be clinically strong. Bottom line: do the best you can and probably do not study in a bar.

 

[bobg504]

You seriously need to get over yourself. Do the best you can with regards to grades. If I were you I would STOP JUST MEMORIZING because if that is how you are getting good grades, you are in for a RUDE AWAKENING when you start studying for boards. I am studying for boards now and it seems to me that the most important thing is to DEVELOP A STRONG GENERAL KNOWLEDGE BASE such that you have an intuitive understanding of high yield concepts because the boards (COMLEX, esp. USMLE) are interested in assessing your understanding of information INTERGRATION and MECHANISM of disease, not just the trivial minutia in the notes that may get you an A in your course. By the way, I used to be like you first year (first semester) and was able to make all A's but after taking a long hard look at what I was doing, I realized that making A's is great but not at the expense of my sanity regarding memorizing voluminous amounts of information. Try to get a hobby or something because if you stay in you current mind state you WILL became burnt out and jaded.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I work out twice a day. I dont know how much more hobby I need.


It doesnt take much for me to memorize things. And in order to know mechanisms, I have to know all the details.

 

[bustbones26]

FINE, be that as it may be, first year medical students don't have much else to shoot for since boards are still a year away. If I want to make my grades my top priority now, whats the ****ing problem? I mean telling kids that kind of stuff is like a license to slack off. And it makes those people that are getting good grades feel like they are doing it for nothing, which I hardly believe.

Boy that statement said a mouthful!

First off, calm down. NOBODY would give anybody a licence to slack off and I really think you misinterpreted any message your dean was trying to convey.

Here is the scoop. One, grades are important, but at the same time, they are not everything. This lecture is not given by your dean,but by faculty all over medical schools. It is to encourage those struggling with grades not to give up or to think that they don't stand a chance to match into a residency program, not to give people a chance to slack. Its just that simple.

Being a resident, my program gives up the chance to sit in and add out input when candidates are selected, a few tips for you and for all.

1) If you have an impressive resume, straight A's, >90% percentile on your boards, research, etc. Yes the program loves this and would like to rank you high. But, if you come there for a rotation and act arrogant, insult patients, or they see that despite the fact that you are highly intellectual, you just plain suck at the art of medicine, well, this hurts you.

2) ON the other side, I have seen mediocre applicants that everybody liked as a person, patients loved them! They worked very hard, busted their a$$ while rotating through, and so what if they weren't jor or jospehine genius, they got ranked high!

3) People who did poorly in the pre-clinical years or did horrible on boards, if they are able to show improvment, such as getting awesome clinical grades, and LOR's, this spoke volumes for them. If they rotated through the program and showed that they were really trying hard, worked like a dog, then the program just assummed that when they were performing poorly their first and second years,that they were just struggling with med-school, not slacking off.

 

[sophiejane]

How about we start just trying to focus on learning everything we can, and learning it well, because there is a PATIENT, not a PROGRAM DIRECTOR at the end of the line?

If that is your focus, hopefully you will be more inspired, and keep your perspective where it should be.

We get so tied up in the comparison game, the competitive game. If you learn all you can and study as hard as you can without going insane and losing all sense of balance in your life, you will not only be prepared for boards, you will be better prepared for caring for your future patients.

This didn't really come into focus for me until 3rd year, but now with only one more year ahead of me, I am acutely aware of how much what I know and don't know can affect the care I give to patients.

People who tell you that medicine is "really learned" on the wards is full of you know what. What you are learning now is the foundation of your knowledge and you'll use it every day on the wards.

Best of luck and hang in there to all the first and second years.

 

[delicatefade]

Why would **** hit the fan any more than it already has? Second year at this school is reportedly lighter then first year.

Just you wait.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

gee thanks.

 

[Taus]

You could just do the following and get the best of both worlds.... study to LEARN the material and be able to apply it to clinical situations, BUT spend the last few days before an exam memorizing as much of the irrelevant details as you can stand w/o going insane. This way you retain all of the "meat and potatoes" that you spent most of your time studying and not worry about flushing out the useless bs that brings your grade from passing to "A" range.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I guess that the problem for me is inherent in the fact that for me to feel like I have learned something, i have to memorize everything.


However, when those minute details slip away, I still have the basic concept.

 

[delicatefade]

I wouldn't worry too much. My mind works much the same as yours, and I thought I had done too much "memorizing" and not enough "understanding" after 1st year at CCOM - however, it will pay off for you big time when you start stuyding for boards. The fact that you memorized everything the first time and learned it well means that when you study it the second time, not only will a lot of those details come back to you quicker, but you will be able to figure out which details don't really matter and you'll start putting the big picture together a lot faster than some of your classmates.

Sefcik likes to be a cheerleader for the students, which is a good thing. He will change his tune next year though when he starts telling you that you shouldn't be worried about failing boards unless you are near the bottom of the class, and especially if you at the bottom of the class in Pharmacology.

 

[DireWolf]

A residency director straight-up told us that preclinical grades are an important part of the application package and are strongly considered when comparing applicants.

moral of the story: the work you put in could ultimately be worth it.

One of the following is true:

1. He/she really isn't a PD
2. He/she is a PD at a podunk DO resdiency program
3. He/she is lying
4. He/she is the only PD in the country that even looks at preclinical grades beyond making sure the students passed.

Take your pick.

 

[macman]

One of the following is true:

1. He/she really isn't a PD
2. He/she is a PD at a podunk DO resdiency program
3. He/she is lying
4. He/she is the only PD in the country that even looks at preclinical grades beyond making sure the students passed.

Take your pick.

Everyone has the right to decide how hard they want to work, and whether they feel grades matter, for whatever reason (pt. care, board scores, etc.) For some programs/specialties grades do not matter much at all. For some they matter A LOT. However, I do not see why they would be important at a "podunk DO program" as they might struggle to fill anyway. At DMU, we only got grades our first two years, years 3/4 were pass/fail and not calculated into rank. So preclinical decides rank entirely. Now, you might not care about your rank, fine, but please do not mislead other students telling them that they can get C's their first two years and still get into a competitive program/specialty.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Now, you might not care about your rank, fine, but please do not mislead other students telling them that they can get C's their first two years and still get into a competitive program/specialty.

And this is precisely what got under my skin.

 

[BklynWill]

One of the following is true:

1. He/she really isn't a PD
2. He/she is a PD at a podunk DO resdiency program
3. He/she is lying
4. He/she is the only PD in the country that even looks at preclinical grades beyond making sure the students passed.

Take your pick.

You couldn't be more wrong.

5. He/she is a residency director of a specialty program in an accredited residency that probably wouldn't be too keen on accepting people who write finite lists such as yours!

There are no absolutes.

 

[DireWolf]

Now, you might not care about your rank, fine, but please do not mislead other students telling them that they can get C's their first two years and still get into a competitive program/specialty.

I am living proof to the contrary.

 

[macman]

I am living proof to the contrary.

When I look back at my med school class, there was a consistent trend that those who got good grades, ranked high in the class, did well on boards, and did other outside activities, etc got into the better specialites/programs. Sure, there were a couple exceptions. But the question I was addressing what would be the best advice to MS1/2's. Your point appears to be year 1/2 grades are totally irrelevant. I would imagine you had other parts of your application that were better, if not impressive (boards, year 3/4 grades, LOR, etc.)

Where are you training and what specialty, and how bad were your grades?

 

[DireWolf]

PM sent.

 

[bustbones26]

You are all missing the point. The point is not to go slack off and get C's in medical school. The point is, if you happen to be a person who is not doing well, but you really are trying, don't give up

 

[Dr Trek 1]

For primary care, especially, preclinical grades do not matter all that much. Experience in rotations and board scores matter most.

 

[OMMFan]

He said that pre-clinical grades, being part of a medical school transcript, are part of the "package", which represents the sum total of all the applicant's credentials. He stressed that if you are light in one area, you must be heavy in another.

In his opinion, the "package" includes:
Medical School transcript
National Board Scores
Letters of recommendation
"Fit" in the program
& Other Activities

What about applicants who go to schools without grades or rank?

Will having no class rank and P/LP/F grades for the preclinical years (assume years 3 & 4 are Honors/HP/P/LP/F) make it harder to match into my choice of residency? The school official with whom I spoke said it makes no difference, assuming one does well on board exams.

Also, forgive my 1st year status, but what are examples of "Other Activities?"

I somehow ended up with a reasonably impressive CV before med school and it pains me to think that I will have to "craft" a brand new impressive CV when I really just want to fully devote myself to learning as much as I possibly can in order to do my job well. At the very least I want to find "Other Activities" that are worth the effort.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

What about applicants who go to schools without grades or rank?

Will having no class rank and P/LP/F grades for the preclinical years (assume years 3 & 4 are Honors/HP/P/LP/F) make it harder to match into my choice of residency? The school official with whom I spoke said it makes no difference, assuming one does well on board exams.

Also, forgive my 1st year status, but what are examples of "Other Activities?"

I somehow ended up with a reasonably impressive CV before med school and it pains me to think that I will have to "craft" a brand new impressive CV when I really just want to fully devote myself to learning as much as I possibly can in order to do my job well. At the very least I want to find "Other Activities" that are worth the effort.

I would suggest reading the new edition of "How to Choose a Medical Specialty" by Anita Taylor. It specifies what PDs of different specialties look for in different applicants.

Basically, it doesn't matter what your school's grading style was. What really matters is your board scores and clinical evaluations.

 

[doc2006pa]

I had a horrible first year. Two family deaths, problems with my child, first half came our w/ a C, second half avg 89 not including two classes I failed since I missed finals and am retaking in summer.... (car accident night prior to final)

i'm concerned if I would ever qualify for a program, I am hoping for EM or somthing else then FP....

I guess I just need to do well on the boards and clinicals. I'm not pressed into a specialty due to my poor academic record...

 

[OSUdoc08]

I had a horrible first year. Two family deaths, problems with my child, first half came our w/ a C, second half avg 89 not including two classes I failed since I missed finals and am retaking in summer.... (car accident night prior to final)

i'm concerned if I would ever qualify for a program, I am hoping for EM or somthing else then FP....

I guess I just need to do well on the boards and clinicals. I'm not pressed into a specialty due to my poor academic record...

I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad year.

Fortunately, first and second year grades are MEANINGLESS.

What IS important is the grade in the rotation for the specialty in which you are applying, your other rotation grades, your board scores, and your recommendations.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad year.

Fortunately, first and second year grades are MEANINGLESS.

What IS important is the grade in the rotation for the specialty in which you are applying, your other rotation grades, your board scores, and your recommendations.

Thank you for finally saying it, OSUdoc. I feel that too many texts on residencies dance around preclinical grades because they are afraid to say that they, in and of themselves, are indeed meaningless.

I like to think of applying to a residency more of like applying to a job. Practical experience (i.e. step 2 scores and rotation evaluations) and what kind of person you are are what really matters.

 

[doc2006pa]

I appreciate the input. It puts my mind at ease. Well, I need to hit the books again!