How many residency apps should I really do?

[CrazyHorseLady]

I am not finding a great answer as to how many residency programs I should apply to. Quite frankly, I could only find 34 with some of those even being a stretch. I am applying IM only, in Chicago area and South Florida area. Have a long list of work, extracurriculars, teaching/leadership roles but no research experience.
Step 1: 221
Step 2: 250

I can't seem to find a calculator or anything like that. My residency advisor/random person at my school who has never met me before and sat with me for 15 minutes told me to apply to about 40 pre-step 2 score. I just can't seem to find 6 more programs that are in a desirable area or would even read past my step 1 score. Any thoughts?

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[hellosnd]

I have a similar step 2, better step 1. Live in California. Was told to apply to 40 to be safe. Aiming for community atm tbh so prob less

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

are you aiming for university programs? If so, I would say about 80+ as a DO. If community then maybe 40+. Why risk not matching?

Ultimately, I guess you have to ask whether you’d rather potentially have to move to an undesirable area or having to delay residency. I’d apply to other areas too and just rank those programs lower as a backup

 

[DOVinciRobot]

You need to ask yourself if living in those areas is more valuable to you than matching at all.

Even in IM, only applying to that low number of programs puts you at a real risk of not matching.

 

[Schwifty]

I know nothing about applying to IM, so keep that in mind. But for DO students I’m a big believer in over applying, worse case scenario you have to cancel interviews and it cost you a bit more money. I generally take whatever number the school recommends and just double it, that should be your minimum.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I would do 60-65 programs at a minimum

 

[deleted1139416]

Is IM really that competitive that someone with a decent Step 1 and excellent Step 2 has to apply to >50 programs?

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

Is IM really that competitive that someone with a decent Step 1 and excellent Step 2 has to apply to >50 programs?

Honestly I am quite shocked at these recommendations- from people who graduated from my school recently, the debate was 34 vs 40-45 amongst them. Now coming on here seeing people suggesting 80? I don't think there are even 80 programs in IL or FL combined. And I know I have a guaranteed interview at one academic program at least. I feel like I am more confused now lol.

 

[hellosnd]

I feel like if you want academic IM only, you should probably aim closer to 80. If just community, 40 should be fine?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Honestly I am quite shocked at these recommendations- from people who graduated from my school recently, the debate was 34 vs 40-45 amongst them. Now coming on here seeing people suggesting 80? I don't think there are even 80 programs in IL or FL combined. And I know I have a guaranteed interview at one academic program at least. I feel like I am more confused now lol.

I think it honestly just depends upon your risk tolerance for getting an email March saying “you didn’t match.” Even if it’s statistically unlikely, why risk it? Then you may have to soap to a place/specialty that you hate. Why not expand to other southern metros (Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis, New Orleans) as a backup? Rank Chicago and Florida programs first

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

I think it honestly just depends upon your risk tolerance for getting an email March saying “you didn’t match.” Even if it’s statistically unlikely, why risk it? Then you may have to soap to a place/specialty that you hate. Why not expand to other southern metros (Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis, New Orleans) as a backup? Rank Chicago and Florida programs first

I'll consider it. I just feel that my DO program is pretty strong compared to others in terms of match rates (we had some optho and uro last year) and if the alumni above me don't think over 45 is necessary to match, I'm not sure what I'll get out of doing like 80. I was hoping posting this would give me a clearer answer between 35-45 lol. I added some programs I am not super fond of last night and got up to 44. I have some time to think I guess!

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I'll consider it. I just feel that my DO program is pretty strong compared to others in terms of match rates (we had some optho and uro last year) and if the alumni above me don't think over 45 is necessary to match, I'm not sure what I'll get out of doing like 80. I was hoping posting this would give me a clearer answer between 35-45 lol. I added some programs I am not super fond of last night and got up to 44. I have some time to think I guess!

I went to one of the strongest DO schools. Your school match rates don’t mean squat without context and placing people into Uro and ophtho means absolutely nothing for you applying IM with strict geographic preferences. The applicants who applied to less than 50 programs at my school were either applying FM/Peds/IM and were aiming for non-competitive programs in the immediate geographic location of our school. Everyone else who thought “of course 40 is enough, i’m a good applicant!” Sweated out match day with only a handful of ranks, and some of them didn’t match….

Until the rules change, matching is a numbers game. As a DO applying to less than 50 if you want to match competitively is simply a bad decision.

 

[Neopolymath]

I'll consider it. I just feel that my DO program is pretty strong compared to others in terms of match rates (we had some optho and uro last year) and if the alumni above me don't think over 45 is necessary to match, I'm not sure what I'll get out of doing like 80. I was hoping posting this would give me a clearer answer between 35-45 lol. I added some programs I am not super fond of last night and got up to 44. I have some time to think I guess!

None of this matters. You DO school means basically nothing unless you are the top applicant from your school to a program that always takes a person from your program every year. Even then it's a toss up because the match, although the least worst way to do this, is still quite random. I think you need to reflect on how the process works. Think about what you are actually saying when you say I only want to apply here and I only want to apply to this many programs.

You are saying you would rather go unmatched than match in a different place. You are saying you would rather potentially open the email and not have a job. In hindsight of not matching I'm sure you will immediately say wow I'm glad I saved the drop in the bucket $. Right?

Not trying to be harsh. It's your life. I'm a random person on the internet. I don't care if you decide to do the dumbest eras strategy ever, frankly, but I would be upset if you didn't make a truly informed decision before doing ut. Just think about why people are suggesting what they did.

I matched my #1 and #1. I have absolutely ZERO regret applying to the amount of programs I did. In fact, I sometimes think I should have applied to more.

 

[Schwifty]

I'll consider it. I just feel that my DO program is pretty strong compared to others in terms of match rates (we had some optho and uro last year) and if the alumni above me don't think over 45 is necessary to match, I'm not sure what I'll get out of doing like 80. I was hoping posting this would give me a clearer answer between 35-45 lol. I added some programs I am not super fond of last night and got up to 44. I have some time to think I guess!

Ya your schools name means nothing. I also go to one of those “top” DO schools and we had our best match ever last year (2 NSG, 8 ortho, IR, vascular, optho, derm, etc). I knew a lot of these people and they all matched 100% because of what they did, not the schools name. The MD programs do not care what DO school you went to, they are all the same to them. Not trying to be mean, it’s just fact.

Also, the difference in applying to 45 vs 80 programs is ~$910, completely worth it if it means not going unmatched IMO. Are you really willing to take that kind of risk? Are you that set on those 44 programs that you would rather end up in the soap or totally unmatched without a job and have to reapply the following year than at another program? Cause that’s the risk you take by under applying.

 

[pink92]

I'll consider it. I just feel that my DO program is pretty strong compared to others in terms of match rates (we had some optho and uro last year) and if the alumni above me don't think over 45 is necessary to match, I'm not sure what I'll get out of doing like 80. I was hoping posting this would give me a clearer answer between 35-45 lol. I added some programs I am not super fond of last night and got up to 44. I have some time to think I guess!

yeah, i think you should listen to the posters above me since they have actual experience applying as DOs. and schwifty is right. i go to a california MD school and i wouldn't be able to tell you which DO schools are considered "top" and which are not even if my life depended on it. i don't even know all the DO schools in my state. i only know a couple because of away rotations. the PD i did my away at last month likely would've been the same because they don't state it to them outright but they do not take DOs regardless of school.

i think in addition to adding programs, you should check the academic programs (or all of them) to see if they have any DOs in any of their residency classes and if they don't even have 1 DO in any classes, apply if you want to but don't count that towards your realistic program number. my friend and i both did aways at an academic location that allowed DOs to do aways there, too, but didn't tell them that they do not take DOs regardless if they did an away with them or not, which is kind of bull**** but is just the reality. i also did an away at a community program that did not take DOs but that program didn't even accept them for aways so at least there's that. seemed kind of ****ty that the academic program let a DO rotate despite her having a 0 chance of matching there but i'm not gonna be the one to say something and rock the boat and mess up my own chances at matching so i'd also caution you that it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Isoval]

I applied to 67 last year.

Step 1 224
Step 2 230

 

[gyngyn]

I am at an established CA MD school. The only way we would let an IM applicant apply to only 40 programs is if we have had an assurance from our own program that they are ranking the applicant to match.

 

[deleted1139416]

I am at an established CA MD school. The only way we would let an IM applicant apply to only 40 programs is if we have had an assurance from our own program that they are ranking the applicant to match.

Here's how many residency programs med students really apply to

A survey of more than 1,000 fourth-year medical students explored looked at how many residency programs does the average medical student apply to each year? What factors play a role in choices?

www.ama-assn.org

According to this link by the AMA the average # per IM applicants overall is 34.6, so why is 40 not enough?

 

[gyngyn]

Here's how many residency programs med students really apply to

A survey of more than 1,000 fourth-year medical students explored looked at how many residency programs does the average medical student apply to each year? What factors play a role in choices?

www.ama-assn.org

According to this link by the AMA the average # per IM applicants overall is 34.6, so why is 40 not enough?

There is a wide variety of IM applicants.
With the information you have shared, the "minimum" is insufficient.

For my IM applicants, our advice is tailored to get them a sufficient number of interviews consistent with success. They often have very high aspirations (and they only want to leave CA for very fancy programs...).

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

None of this matters. You DO school means basically nothing unless you are the top applicant from your school to a program that always takes a person from your program every year. Even then it's a toss up because the match, although the least worst way to do this, is still quite random. I think you need to reflect on how the process works. Think about what you are actually saying when you say I only want to apply here and I only want to apply to this many programs.

You are saying you would rather go unmatched than match in a different place. You are saying you would rather potentially open the email and not have a job. In hindsight of not matching I'm sure you will immediately say wow I'm glad I saved the drop in the bucket $. Right?

Not trying to be harsh. It's your life. I'm a random person on the internet. I don't care if you decide to do the dumbest eras strategy ever, frankly, but I would be upset if you didn't make a truly informed decision before doing ut. Just think about why people are suggesting what they did.

I matched my #1 and #1. I have absolutely ZERO regret applying to the amount of programs I did. In fact, I sometimes think I should have applied to more.

I definitely appreciate everyone's input. Again I was more surprised at the fact that according to my school/alumni 40 is considered like an average amount, but hearing from you guys, you are saying it is greatly underapplying and most of you applied to 60-80. Honestly I am pretty confused on the whole process of this and why it differs so much. I still have time, and I have been adding some additional programs.

To clarify: I wasn't trying to say my DO school's name meant anything I agree it doesn't, I was trying to say that the students at least consistently match well and to competitive programs/specialties. I would assume its because most of us take Step 1 and Step 2 and have a lot of extracurriculars compared to some other DO schools. But I digress.

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

I went to one of the strongest DO schools. Your school match rates don’t mean squat without context and placing people into Uro and ophtho means absolutely nothing for you applying IM with strict geographic preferences. The applicants who applied to less than 50 programs at my school were either applying FM/Peds/IM and were aiming for non-competitive programs in the immediate geographic location of our school. Everyone else who thought “of course 40 is enough, i’m a good applicant!” Sweated out match day with only a handful of ranks, and some of them didn’t match….

Until the rules change, matching is a numbers game. As a DO applying to less than 50 if you want to match competitively is simply a bad decision.

I definitely appreciate the input, thank you!

 

[hellosnd]

Sounds like based off the conversation above, it’s a mix of your board scores, the strength of your app, your risk tolerance, and your desire to go to top programs vs local community stuff

 

[gyngyn]

Sounds like based off the conversation above, it’s a mix of your board scores, the strength of your app, your risk tolerance, and your desire to go to top programs vs local community stuff

We also consider the applicant's interview style/interpersonal skills as well as where they did away rotations.

 

[esob]

Here's how many residency programs med students really apply to

A survey of more than 1,000 fourth-year medical students explored looked at how many residency programs does the average medical student apply to each year? What factors play a role in choices?

www.ama-assn.org

According to this link by the AMA the average # per IM applicants overall is 34.6, so why is 40 not enough?

That data is old and with the advent of virtual interviews, the landscape has changed dramatically. The other thing that has changed is signaling tokens, and it's anyone's guess how that will impact this cycle.

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

I really appreciate everyone's input. I have added at least 20-25 more programs and applied to some of the primary care IM tracks in the programs as well- I do want to do Endocrinology as an end goal so I think primary care or inpatient track would work out either way for my career. Thanks again, I am glad I made this post and hope that if anyone reads it who is applying this cycle takes something away from it!

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

We also consider the applicant's interview style/interpersonal skills as well as where they did away rotations.

I have a quick question if you have time: I was not able to get sub-I's at most of my top program choices. There was two I got out of my five I wanted, but both in a sub-specialty of IM (Nephrology and Endocrinology). Most of them I paid for on VSLO and I also cold emailed but didn't receive any response to my VSLO app or my emails (still not marked accept or deny on VSLO, just no decision made). I instead replaced those Sub-I's I could not get with a Cardiology, Neurology, and Heme/Onc rotation to be more knowledgable in those subjects since I have never done a rotation in any of them and to have some exposure before intern year. Would that be something I explain in an interview in some capacity, and would it be frowned upon to not see a bunch of "sub-I's" in IM vs. doing subspecialties?

 

[gyngyn]

I have a quick question if you have time: I was not able to get sub-I's at most of my top program choices. There was two I got out of my five I wanted, but both in a sub-specialty of IM (Nephrology and Endocrinology). Most of them I paid for on VSLO and I also cold emailed but didn't receive any response to my VSLO app or my emails (still not marked accept or deny on VSLO, just no decision made). I instead replaced those Sub-I's I could not get with a Cardiology, Neurology, and Heme/Onc rotation to be more knowledgable in those subjects since I have never done a rotation in any of them and to have some exposure before intern year. Would that be something I explain in an interview in some capacity, and would it be frowned upon to not see a bunch of "sub-I's" in IM vs. doing subspecialties?

I have no idea how this would be interpreted! Is it normal to have so many away rotations?
We only recommend one for our IM applicants. They do all their required IM rotations and elective sub-specialty rotations here, then do their away sub-I at the place where it will do them the most good (regarding their rank at that program).

 

[BoneWizard]

I have a quick question if you have time: I was not able to get sub-I's at most of my top program choices. There was two I got out of my five I wanted, but both in a sub-specialty of IM (Nephrology and Endocrinology). Most of them I paid for on VSLO and I also cold emailed but didn't receive any response to my VSLO app or my emails (still not marked accept or deny on VSLO, just no decision made). I instead replaced those Sub-I's I could not get with a Cardiology, Neurology, and Heme/Onc rotation to be more knowledgable in those subjects since I have never done a rotation in any of them and to have some exposure before intern year. Would that be something I explain in an interview in some capacity, and would it be frowned upon to not see a bunch of "sub-I's" in IM vs. doing subspecialties?

The neurology one might look funny because it's a whole other specialty but I doubt it would matter much especially when the others are all IM subspecialties.

I have no idea how this would be interpreted! Is it normal to have so many away rotations?
We only recommend one for our IM applicants. They do all their required IM rotations and elective sub-specialty rotations here, then do their away sub-I at the place where it will do them the most good (regarding their rank at that program).

Our school's guidance was if you can do at least average on a rotation, you should do as many away rotations as you can particularly if going for a competitive field since they usually guarantee an interview.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I really appreciate everyone's input. I have added at least 20-25 more programs and applied to some of the primary care IM tracks in the programs as well- I do want to do Endocrinology as an end goal so I think primary care or inpatient track would work out either way for my career. Thanks again, I am glad I made this post and hope that if anyone reads it who is applying this cycle takes something away from it!

Wishing you best of luck!

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

Ah I see! To explain, my medical school does not have a true "home" hospital. So basically I am always doing "aways". Interesting to see the differences in programs that have a home institution!

I have no idea how this would be interpreted! Is it normal to have so many away rotations?
We only recommend one for our IM applicants. They do all their required IM rotations and elective sub-specialty rotations here, then do their away sub-I at the place where it will do them the most good (regarding their rank at that program).

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

The neurology one might look funny because it's a whole other specialty but I doubt it would matter much especially when the others are all IM subspecialties.


Our school's guidance was if you can do at least average on a rotation, you should do as many away rotations as you can particularly if going for a competitive field since they usually guarantee an interview.

I chose to do neurology as it is at one of my top 10 residency program choices, albeit in a different specialty. Despite that hospital only being 20 minutes from my house I have had no luck getting a rotation there previously so at least I can see what its like there and maybe introduce myself to the IM team. I am also doing it because most medical schools have a mandatory neuro rotation (which mine I'm assuming replaces with an OMM rotation lol) so I thought it would be helpful as an intern to have that rotation under my belt.

Heme/Onc is at one of my top 3 (altho I just did Nephro there as well but it is the institution most considered "home" for us) and Cards is at a program I'm applying to as well but very low on my list as its out in the middle of legit nowhere- this was supposed to be a spot for one of my Florida choices but alas I never heard from the program.

Thanks for the input!