Your advice for an Educational Psychologist

[barryggg]

Hey guys,

So, I use to work with school districts and found that the issues that came up were fairly minor for most part. But couple years back I was hired by a clinic, and now see more serious mental disorders. What additional training could you see being valuable to add to my assessment capabilities?

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[smalltownpsych]

Hey guys,

So, I use to work with school districts and found that the issues that came up were fairly minor for most part. But couple years back I was hired by a clinic, and now see more serious mental disorders. What additional training could you see being valuable to add to my assessment capabilities?

An APA accredited doctorate in clinical psychology would be a good place to start.

 

[barryggg]

An APA accredited doctorate in clinical psychology would be a good place to start.

Really?

 

[barryggg]

I'm already a Psychologist. I've taken courses in Psychopathology, and have had a variety of presenting problems. As I said, it did tend to be more minor things on the whole at the school district, but there was variety.

Where I am at, since I'm already a psychologist, I'd be able to interpret the MMPI after doing a workshop..not having to do a whole clinical psychology degree.

 

[PsyDr]

As in EdD or as in EdS?

Depends on what kind of assessments you are talking about. Determine psychiatric diagnosis stuff? The standard answer from APA ethics is to seek supervision in whatever you are doing. Learn the sensitivity/specificity of the tools you are using . Read as many textbooks as you can. Continue supervision. Be humble. Admit when you are out of your depth and refer out. Do not succumb to pressures to do otherwise. Shadow relevant people. Start reading the research base.

The MMPI isn't a workshop and you're ready thing. There is an INCREDIBLE history behind it which you would need to know before even starting to administer it. Then you're going need to know how various things affect various subscales (e.g., pain). Then you're going to need to have enough experience in the scales to know when stuff is BS. Know what a super plus normal profile looks like or whatever they call it? What's the max you can see before someone is too psychotic to take the test? What's the differences between codetypes, psychopathology differentiation, and personality assessment? The ego psychologists have a very different approach than the pain guys than the cbt guys.

 

[psych.meout]

I'm already a Psychologist. I've taken courses in Psychopathology, and have had a variety of presenting problems. As I said, it did tend to be more minor things on the whole at the school district, but there was variety.

Where I am at, since I'm already a psychologist, I'd be able to interpret the MMPI after doing a workshop..not having to do a whole clinical psychology degree.

So, you are trying to backdoor yourself into being a clinical psychologist with actually completing doctoral training in clinical psychology?

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh hey, this guy is back.

 

[restingbeachface]

An APA accredited doctorate in clinical psychology would be a good place to start.

After reading this forum for years, I have to finally ask.

What is everyone's beef? I graduated with my doctorate from an apa accredited school psychology program, did an accredited internship NOT IN clinical psychology, did a two year postdoctoral fellowship, I'm licensed. So why does it have to be in clinical psych when even by APA standards school psychs can work in a clinical setting like I do, if it's within their practice parameters?

I always read how psychologists aren't looked at any differently from others in the clinical setting, but it's like school psychologists are the red headed step children. *endrant* Happy Snow Day!

 

[WisNeuro]

After reading this forum for years, I have to finally ask.

What is everyone's beef? I graduated with my doctorate from an apa accredited school psychology program, did an accredited internship NOT IN clinical psychology, did a two year postdoctoral fellowship, I'm licensed. So why does it have to be in clinical psych when even by APA standards school psychs can work in a clinical setting like I do, if it's within their practice parameters?

I always read how psychologists aren't looked at any differently from others in the clinical setting, but it's like school psychologists are the red headed step children. *endrant* Happy Snow Day!

It's a scope of practice/competence thing. We see it all of the time. People who think they can attend a seminar on something (e.g., MMPI) and suddenly they are qualified to use it, without any consultation and supervision. you see enough of these terrible reports from the "weekend warriors" and you understand.

 

[barryggg]

After reading this forum for years, I have to finally ask.

What is everyone's beef? I graduated with my doctorate from an apa accredited school psychology program, did an accredited internship NOT IN clinical psychology, did a two year postdoctoral fellowship, I'm licensed. So why does it have to be in clinical psych when even by APA standards school psychs can work in a clinical setting like I do, if it's within their practice parameters?

I always read how psychologists aren't looked at any differently from others in the clinical setting, but it's like school psychologists are the red headed step children. *endrant* Happy Snow Day!

I agree with you. But just to be clear. I'm an educational psychologist (independent practice capability), not a School Psychologist.

 

[barryggg]

As in EdD or as in EdS?

Depends on what kind of assessments you are talking about. Determine psychiatric diagnosis stuff? The standard answer from APA ethics is to seek supervision in whatever you are doing. Learn the sensitivity/specificity of the tools you are using . Read as many textbooks as you can. Continue supervision. Be humble. Admit when you are out of your depth and refer out. Do not succumb to pressures to do otherwise. Shadow relevant people. Start reading the research base.

The MMPI isn't a workshop and you're ready thing. There is an INCREDIBLE history behind it which you would need to know before even starting to administer it. Then you're going need to know how various things affect various subscales (e.g., pain). Then you're going to need to have enough experience in the scales to know when stuff is BS. Know what a super plus normal profile looks like or whatever they call it? What's the max you can see before someone is too psychotic to take the test? What's the differences between codetypes, psychopathology differentiation, and personality assessment? The ego psychologists have a very different approach than the pain guys than the cbt guys.

M.ed (Canada).

Oh, I know. I would obviously have to also have to get experience administering it and interpreting while under supervision. I wasn't trying to suggest I'd do the workshop, and then be done with it. But that might be months..not a whole new degree.

 

[restingbeachface]

It's a scope of practice/competence thing. We see it all of the time. People who think they can attend a seminar on something (e.g., MMPI) and suddenly they are qualified to use it, without any consultation and supervision. you see enough of these terrible reports from the "weekend warriors" and you understand.

You're right, it's a competence problem. But what really grinds my gears is a specific degree doesn't mean you are competent was I get irritated about. It's all about your training. Regardless if you are a school psych, educational psych, clinical psych or whatever.

 

[WisNeuro]

You're right, it's a competence problem. But what really grinds my gears is a specific degree doesn't mean you are competent was I get irritated about. It's all about your training. Regardless if you are a school psych, educational psych, clinical psych or whatever.

True, even clinical psych PhDs over stretch their competence. But, they are also more likely to have been exposed to and trained in such instruments as a part of their training. Just base rates.

 

[barryggg]

You're right, it's a competence problem. But what really grinds my gears is a specific degree doesn't mean you are competent was I get irritated about. It's all about your training. Regardless if you are a school psych, educational psych, clinical psych or whatever.

You are making a point I've made over and over.

The Psychological college in my province is quite clear. You want competence in something...as long as you're a current Psychologist..you need to take a combo of courses, workshop, and supervision if you want to upgrade. It does not take 3-5 more years (a Clinical Psych degree) so you can use the MMPI competently.

 

[PsyDr]

M.ed (Canada).

Oh, I know. I would obviously have to also have to get experience administering it and interpreting while under supervision. I wasn't trying to suggest I'd do the workshop, and then be done with it. But that might be months..not a whole new degree.

You're not qualified to administer an MMPI then. You'll notice the educational qualifications required are a doctorate. As you know, the APA defines psychologist as a doctoral profession. There are educational standards within this which include stats, test design, psychopahtology, bio behavior, etc. You do not have this education.

Yes there are workarounds. Yes you work in Canada.

Here's the problem: You work in a common law country. Which means you owe your patients an ordinary standard of care. Which the test manufacturers have laid out.

A simple depo would go:

atty: "Mr/s barryggg, can you read the first line of the pearson qualifications highlighted there?" Thanks. Can you point to your doctorate on your CV? Can you point to your coursework in stats, test design, test admin, etc? Is that a doctoral level course? Can you show me where in your education you took a single course in the MMPI? So when you opined that "Patient Smith is a surgical candidate/ bad parenting choice/crazy/faking/whatever", you didn't have ANY education to base that off? Oh, you were informally trained? "

Now you're just talking about how screwed you are.

 

[barryggg]

You're not qualified to administer an MMPI then. You'll notice the educational qualifications required are a doctorate. As you know, the APA defines psychologist as a doctoral profession. There are educational standards within this which include stats, test design, psychopahtology, bio behavior, etc. You do not have this education.

Yes there are workarounds. Yes you work in Canada.

Here's the problem: You work in a common law country. Which means you owe your patients an ordinary standard of care. Which the test manufacturers have laid out.

A simple depo would go:

atty: "Mr/s barryggg, can you read the first line of the pearson qualifications highlighted there?" Thanks. Can you point to your doctorate on your CV? Can you point to your coursework in stats, test design, test admin, etc? Is that a doctoral level course? Can you show me where in your education you took a single course in the MMPI? So when you opined that "Patient Smith is a surgical candidate/ bad parenting choice/crazy/faking/whatever", you didn't have ANY education to base that off? Oh, you were informally trained? "

Now you're just talking about how screwed you are.

This is all handled by the college. You go through them. You give them a plan of what you want to get competent in, and they come back and tell you..."you need these courses, this workshop, and this much supervision".

It's a level C instrument... The bolded part is relevant to me. The WWPI is used in an educational context, and I am licensed to practice in my province.

QUALIFICATION LEVEL C:
Tests with a C qualification require a high level of expertise in test interpretation, and can be purchased by individuals with:

• A doctorate degree in psychology, education, or closely related field with formal training in the ethical administration, scoring, and interpretation of clinical assessments related to the intended use of the assessment.
  OR
  
• Licensure or certification to practice in your state in a field related to the purchase.
  OR
  
• Certification by or full active membership in a professional organization (such as APA, NASP, NAN, INS) that requires training and experience in the relevant area of assessment.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Why do you always assume that your technical qualifications per a website are equal to the level of competence needed? For instance, I doubt you are competent with the MMPI given your limited classroom and, I only assume, almost non-existent supervised practical experience during training.

Also, what inspires you to come back here to this forum every time you do, given the history?

Either question should be an interesting response.

 

[barryggg]

Why do you always assume that your technical qualifications per a website are equal to the level of competence needed? For instance, I doubt you are competent with the MMPI given your limited classroom and, I only assume, almost non-existent supervised practical experience during training.

Also, what inspires you to come back here to this forum every time you do, given the history?

Either question should be an interesting response.

Please read.

 

[smalltownpsych]

After reading this forum for years, I have to finally ask.

What is everyone's beef? I graduated with my doctorate from an apa accredited school psychology program, did an accredited internship NOT IN clinical psychology, did a two year postdoctoral fellowship, I'm licensed. So why does it have to be in clinical psych when even by APA standards school psychs can work in a clinical setting like I do, if it's within their practice parameters?

I always read how psychologists aren't looked at any differently from others in the clinical setting, but it's like school psychologists are the red headed step children. *endrant* Happy Snow Day!

You are a real psychologist with a real doctorate who is able to determine their own scope of practice and competency. Most "school psychologists" are not. I think that is the problem and it is unfortunate that you get lumped in with folks who think that they can do anything that the law allows regardless of education, training, or experience.

*edited to add* I am not implying that most or even a majority of school psychologists are not practicing ethically and within their scope of practice, just stating that most don't have the same level of education and training as @restingbeachface

 

[barryggg]

'real'

I love how you guys are so easily pissed off, and so desperate for people to think of you as Dr's. It's cute.

 

[barryggg]

You are a real psychologist with a real doctorate who is able to determine their own scope of practice and competency. Most "school psychologists" are not. I think that is the problem and it is unfortunate that you get lumped in with folks who think that they can do anything that the law allows regardless of education, training, or experience.

*edited to add* I am not implying that most or even a majority of school psychologists are not practicing ethically and within their scope of practice, just stating that most don't have the same level of education and training as @restingbeachface

If you follow the rules..then I don't see how you are not being ethical.

 

[barryggg]

Soon I'm going to have the neuropsychologists telling me I can't use the stroop screen because it decreases their business potentially.

 

[smalltownpsych]

'real'

I love how you guys are so easily pissed off, and so desperate for people to think of you as Dr's. It's cute.

So I guess that is the answer as to why you come back here. You might be disappointed to know that I am not angry at all. Trust me, I have more important things to get upset about and they are completely unrelated to this site. I come here for the collegial discussions, to provide guidance for students, and advocate for my profession. I also get a little break from the stress of the work day and thus enjoy some of the humorous exchanges.

 

[barryggg]

So I guess that is the answer as to why you come back here. You might be disappointed to know that I am not angry at all. Trust me, I have more important things to get upset about and they are completely unrelated to this site. I come here for the collegial discussions, to provide guidance for students, and advocate for my profession. I also get a little break from the stress of the work day and thus enjoy some of the humorous exchanges.

That's not the reason I came back. I came for actual advice. I just find it humorous how you guys are so comfortable, without much thought, to advise people that the only way they can use instruments like MMPI is to do a Clinical Phd (after I've spent 8 years in school, undergrad + 3yrs Masters + 1yr to get registered). Apparently, any other way, is trying to get in through the back door, or is unethical, or it's 'fake' Psychologists trying to become 'real' Psychologists.

Do you understand how that is not only disrespectful, but more importantly, how it doesn't even line up with what the Psychological college suggests when you're upgrading?

 

[smalltownpsych]

That's not the reason I came back. I came for actual advice. I just find it humorous how you guys are so comfortable, without much thought, to advise people that the only way they can use instruments like MMPI is to do a Clinical Phd (after I've spent 8 years in school, undergrad + 3yrs Masters + 1yr to get registered). Apparently, any other way, is trying to get in through the back door, or is unethical, or it's 'fake' Psychologists trying to become 'real' Psychologists.

Do you understand how that is not only disrespectful, but more importantly, how it doesn't even line up with what the Psychological college suggests when you're upgrading?

As I am practicing in the US, I have no idea what the Psychological College suggests. We have no upgrading system, but we do have people who misrepresent themselves and their credentials. When I say a doctorate in an APA-accredited program, that is what I advocate for here in the US. I generally don't think MA level people conducting psychological assessments is a good idea. I also think that a psychologist should have a doctorate. My cousin is a school psychologist and he is very clear how limited his scope of practice and that he is not the same as a clinical psychologist. Since most people don't understand this distinction, I feel that using the same term to describe a lesser degree is problematic and misleading.

 

[deleted343839]

If you follow the rules..then I don't see how you are not being ethical.

What others have been trying to say is that ethical practice means more than just following rules - it goes well beyond checking the boxes and following the minimum standards. Those things are necessary (in most cases) but never sufficient. And it does sound as though you're somewhat conflating licensure/scope of practice with competence, which resonates uncomfortably with those of us who have seen a few or more ethics complaints in our careers. It's true that as a profession we are fairly risk averse. Nevertheless, when you ask for advice, multiple people urge you to put on the brakes, and you push back with silliness like "so desperate for people to think of you as Dr's," you do not make a strong case for your professionalism.

Anyway, you opened this conversation asking about how you could expand on your assessment capabilities to work with people with more serious disorders. It's not an easy question to answer. If you were trained primarily to work in school/educational settings but now work in more clinical/mental health settings, clearly you will encounter some gaps in your knowledge and skills. But a meaningful answer to your question would require more information about the specific setting/population, your education and experience to date, and the gap between your competencies today and your ideal future competencies. Does it even make sense for you to learn how to interpret the MMPI? If you were mainly providing psychotherapy then I'd say it doesn't. If you want to move into providing more comprehensive psychological assessment, then I'd say you're out of your depth without more broad-based training and closely supervised experience. But maybe your situation doesn't fit either description. That is why it's so very important to have a mentor who can help you navigate these issues, especially if you are venturing into kinds of work that most of your peers (with similar training backgrounds) are not.

 

[Justanothergrad]

That's not the reason I came back. I came for actual advice. I just find it humorous how you guys are so comfortable, without much thought, to advise people that the only way they can use instruments like MMPI is to do a Clinical Phd (after I've spent 8 years in school, undergrad + 3yrs Masters + 1yr to get registered). Apparently, any other way, is trying to get in through the back door, or is unethical, or it's 'fake' Psychologists trying to become 'real' Psychologists.

Do you understand how that is not only disrespectful, but more importantly, how it doesn't even line up with what the Psychological college suggests when you're upgrading?

You don't want advice. You've been given advice, repeatedly. You dislike it and disregard it. I'll give it to you again though.

1. no one cares that you did 8 years in school, especially when you include your 4 years of undergraduate and 1 year of 'getting registered' as part of that 8 years. This would be as irrelevant as me saying 'I have 24 years of school when you include K12, UG, grad school, and post-doctoral work'. Your UG did not prepare you in any way to use the MMPI. The pretty picture I drew in 1st grade art class doesn't help me. You have 3 years of school and one of supervised experience. That's all. And in that, you specialized in an area that is not related to what you want to be doing now (SMI). That is not just picking up/expanding an area of training, you are saying "how can I change careers within psychology entirely when I started in a different branch and don't have sufficient knowledge base to begin with". Know what someone with a PhD in social psychology who wants to do therapy should do? Get a doctorate in clinical psychology, same as you.

2. The psychologists on this forum are almost exclusively based in the US. We don't know what the Canadian standard is or what the college suggests. You have to know this by now. Our advice is going to be based on the APA, and there is quite a bit of argument to be made that American psychology is the dominant force behind the field now (and has been for a number of decades).

3. Use of the term psychologist to imply that your training and our training is the same is not accurate. Its not 'real' or 'fake'; its simply that the experiences and training are not the same between our degrees and your degree does not equip you to do what you want to do competently. You have obfuscated your training and experience here before to try and hide what it actually was. I only assume this is because you understand your training is not the same in breadth of depth as that received in doctoral programs in clinical psychology.

4. Competency is not just 'checking the box', but being ethical. Like I've said in before, taking a class in the MMPI does not necessarily make you proficient or competent. As someone who researches the MMPI and assessment more generally, I doubt you have had the coursework or experiences to ground you in the broader assessment literature needed generally, or with high stakes and difficult cases such as SMI. Even if the college says 'take X course/courses', that does not mean taking them leads to competence.

Why do you keep coming back to get advice from which you will always get the same opinion? Bored at work? Bet with an office mate?

 

[barryggg]

Anyway, you opened this conversation asking about how you could expand on your assessment capabilities to work with people with more serious disorders. It's not an easy question to answer. If you were trained primarily to work in school/educational settings but now work in more clinical/mental health settings, clearly you will encounter some gaps in your knowledge and skills. But a meaningful answer to your question would require more information about the specific setting/population, your education and experience to date, and the gap between your competencies today and your ideal future competencies. Does it even make sense for you to learn how to interpret the MMPI? If you were mainly providing psychotherapy then I'd say it doesn't. If you want to move into providing more comprehensive psychological assessment, then I'd say you're probably out of your depth without more broad-based training and closely supervised experience. But maybe your situation doesn't fit either description. That is why it's so very important to have a mentor who can help you navigate these issues, especially if you are venturing into kinds of work that most of your peers (with similar training backgrounds) are not.

Thanks for your response. On top of the usual things you would expect (autism, ADHD), i'm seeing way more anxiety, depression, kids that have been abused..than I saw at the school district.

I'm 100% assessment background. I don't do counselling. And I don't do just psycho-educational assessments.

 

[barryggg]

You don't want advice. You've been given advice, repeatedly. You dislike it and disregard it. I'll give it to you again though.

1. no one cares that you did 8 years in school, especially when you include your 4 years of undergraduate and 1 year of 'getting registered' as part of that 8 years. This would be as irrelevant as me saying 'I have 24 years of school when you include K12, UG, grad school, and post-doctoral work'. Your UG did not prepare you in any way to use the MMPI. The pretty picture I drew in 1st grade art class doesn't help me. You have 3 years of school and one of supervised experience. That's all. And in that, you specialized in an area that is not related to what you want to be doing now (SMI). That is not just picking up/expanding an area of training, you are saying "how can I change careers within psychology entirely when I started in a different branch and don't have sufficient knowledge base to begin with". Know what someone with a PhD in social psychology who wants to do therapy should do? Get a doctorate in clinical psychology, same as you.

2. The psychologists on this forum are almost exclusively based in the US. We don't know what the Canadian standard is or what the college suggests. You have to know this by now. Our advice is going to be based on the APA, and there is quite a bit of argument to be made that American psychology is the dominant force behind the field now (and has been for a number of decades).

3. Use of the term psychologist to imply that your training and our training is the same is not accurate. Its not 'real' or 'fake'; its simply that the experiences and training are not the same between our degrees and your degree does not equip you to do what you want to do competently. You have obfuscated your training and experience here before to try and hide what it actually was. I only assume this is because you understand your training is not the same in breadth of depth as that received in doctoral programs in clinical psychology.

4. Competency is not just 'checking the box', but being ethical. Like I've said in before, taking a class in the MMPI does not necessarily make you proficient or competent. As someone who researches the MMPI and assessment more generally, I doubt you have had the coursework or experiences to ground you in the broader assessment literature needed generally, or with high stakes and difficult cases such as SMI. Even if the college says 'take X course/courses', that does not mean taking them leads to competence.

Why do you keep coming back to get advice from which you will always get the same opinion? Bored at work? Bet with an office mate?

I appreciate your response..you're simply wrong. In Canada, you're a Psychologist because that is what I'm registered as. Some provinces make a distinction between School Psychology, and the rest..but most don't.

I'm a Psychologist because I'm a Psychologist. I'm not claiming to be something I'm not.

If your definition is Phd=Psychologist..great..but that's not the reality. It's not only not a consensus in America, but America does not own the world..so your particular situation is not relevant for every other country.

 

[deleted343839]

Thanks for your response. On top of the usual things you would expect (autism, ADHD), i'm seeing way more anxiety, depression, kids that have been abused..than I saw at the school district.

I'm 100% assessment background. I don't do counselling. And I don't do just psycho-educational assessments.

In your current setting, what is the purpose of your assessments? What do other professionals do with your reports?

 

[barryggg]

In your current setting, what is the purpose of your assessments? What do other professionals do with your reports?

Depends who's referring. Beyond parents wanting to get accommodations for their kids in school settings, the in-house psychiatrist sends all his referrals to me...anything assessment related.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You're right, it's a competence problem. But what really grinds my gears is a specific degree doesn't mean you are competent was I get irritated about. It's all about your training. Regardless if you are a school psych, educational psych, clinical psych or whatever.

Let's say I'm pretty awesome at neuroanatomy and crush it at pathology stuff. Now I take some courses about deep brain stimulators and I do research in the area, and I even take some industry sponsored weekend seminars ...that should qualify me to do the implant surgeries...right? They cut on brains, I cut on brains...they read books, I read books, etc.

All surgeons are basically the same bc they all learned how to use some of the same tools. Some people believe years of extra training and mentoring are needed to do it right, but what could they possibly know?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...but America does not own the world..so your particular situation is not relevant for every other country.

In this case...location and training matters. The MMPI-2 is owned by a USA-based company and they set the educational requirements for who can purchase it and who is qualified to administer it. If they require specific training and expertise (they do), then it does still apply.

 

[barryggg]

In this case...location and training matters. The MMPI-2 is owned by a USA-based company and they set the educational requirements for who can purchase it and who is qualified to administer it. If they require specific training and expertise (they do), then it does still apply.

Of course. And I will follow all their regulations...my only point was that the requirements do not require a Clinical Phd. That is the silly part here.

 

[awishingstar]

In this case...location and training matters. The MMPI-2 is owned by a USA-based company and they set the educational requirements for who can purchase it and who is qualified to administer it. If they require specific training and expertise (they do), then it does still apply.

Not to side with the trolls, but in Canada there are several provinces which allow fully licensed registration for psychologists with MA/MSc/MEd + a period of supervised training. These psychologists are treated as equivalent to PhD psychologists in many ways, including ability to access, administer, and interpret assessments. So that part of this conversation is accurate.

 

[madpsych78]

You are a real psychologist with a real doctorate who is able to determine their own scope of practice and competency. Most "school psychologists" are not. I think that is the problem and it is unfortunate that you get lumped in with folks who think that they can do anything that the law allows regardless of education, training, or experience.

*edited to add* I am not implying that most or even a majority of school psychologists are not practicing ethically and within their scope of practice, just stating that most don't have the same level of education and training as @restingbeachface

I'm going to play devil's advocate here...obviously, specialist-level school psychologists don't have the same level of training, but if you are a school psychologist with a doctoral degree from an APA-accredited school psychology program, completed an APA-accredited pre-doctoral internship, passed the EPPP and attained licensure...doesn't that license state that you are a licensed psychologist (regardless of applied field)?

ETA: Note that I'm not talking about licenses or certification to practice in the schools. I'm talking about becoming a Licensed Psychologist and adding LP after your name.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here...obviously, specialist-level school psychologists don't have the same level of training, but if you are a school psychologist with a doctoral degree from an APA-accredited school psychology program, completed an APA-accredited pre-doctoral internship, passed the EPPP and attained licensure...doesn't that license state that you are a licensed psychologist (regardless of applied field)?

ETA: Note that I'm not talking about licenses or certification to practice in the schools. I'm talking about becoming a Licensed Psychologist and adding LP after your name.

That is exactly what I was saying. The confusion arises when states create an exception for School Psychologists who are licensed at a masters level with less stringent requirements which is what many or probably most School Psychologists or Educational Psychologists are.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I appreciate your response..you're simply wrong. In Canada, you're a Psychologist because that is what I'm registered as. Some provinces make a distinction between School Psychology, and the rest..but most don't.

I'm a Psychologist because I'm a Psychologist. I'm not claiming to be something I'm not.

If your definition is Phd=Psychologist..great..but that's not the reality. It's not only not a consensus in America, but America does not own the world..so your particular situation is not relevant for every other country.

Then stop asking for professional development advice from us?

And maybe read the rest of what I said again.

 

[restingbeachface]

Let's say I'm pretty awesome at neuroanatomy and crush it at pathology stuff. Now I take some courses about deep brain stimulators and I do research in the area, and I even take some industry sponsored weekend seminars ...that should qualify me to do the implant surgeries...right? They cut on brains, I cut on brains...they read books, I read books, etc.

All surgeons are basically the same bc they all learned how to use some of the same tools. Some people believe years of extra training and mentoring are needed to do it right, but what could they possibly know?

The thing is, IMO psychologists like to think we are pretty important- we are but to our detriment sometimes. Where we put other professions or "lower skilled" clinicians down. So, no, you can't do surgery even if your research area is in that field (though maybe you can do the research if you have competency). But here's my deal, how to administer a test like say the ADOS2 isn't the same as surgery. Taking it a step further, fellow psychologists put value and judge others about what is harder and more complicated to administer and interpret. Who is more qualified to do it, who can and cannot, despite the person getting training and supervision. I get not all tests are created equal, and that not everyone is trained to do "surgery", but if you aren't claiming to do it or need to do it, what is the problem?

All the person asked about is, in Canada, what additional training would be most helpful to expand his competency. According to our standards, Masters and beyond, we should all be doing this, because that's what continuing education is for. Why not be kind and help out?

 

[smalltownpsych]

The thing is, IMO psychologists like to think we are pretty important- we are but to our detriment sometimes. Where we put other professions or "lower skilled" clinicians down. So, no, you can't do surgery even if your research area is in that field (though maybe you can do the research if you have competency). But here's my deal, how to administer a test like say the ADOS2 isn't the same as surgery. Taking it a step further, fellow psychologists put value and judge others about what is harder and more complicated to administer and interpret. Who is more qualified to do it, who can and cannot, despite the person getting training and supervision. I get not all tests are created equal, and that not everyone is trained to do "surgery", but if you aren't claiming to do it or need to do it, what is the problem?

All the person asked about is, in Canada, what additional training would be most helpful to expand his competency. According to our standards, Masters and beyond, we should all be doing this, because that's what continuing education is for. Why not be kind and help out?

I actually think quite the opposite on this. That we don't protect our turf and hold higher standards for the field enough. To use the example you gave, making a diagnosis and treating someone with an autism spectrum disorder is about more than just administering a test. The information that we provide to people can be extremely powerful and shapes lives. Just because the results aren't as immediate as a both surgery doesn't make it any less damaging. My very first assessment class this was made crystal clear to us when the instructor gave failing grades for any mistake in scoring and it wasn't because he was being unkind.

 

[barryggg]

I actually think quite the opposite on this. That we don't protect our turf and hold higher standards for the field enough. To use the example you gave, making a diagnosis and treating someone with an autism spectrum disorder is about more than just administering a test. The information that we provide to people can be extremely powerful and shapes lives. Just because the results aren't as immediate as a both surgery doesn't make it any less damaging. My very first assessment class this was made crystal clear to us when the instructor gave failing grades for any mistake in scoring and it wasn't because he was being unkind.

Didn't you go to like a Psy.d program where you paid through your a$$ to get that degree? It's rich to spend 100-200k, and buy your degree, and then talk about standards. You are telling someone who did their schooling for free, and went to great Universities, about standards.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The thing is, IMO psychologists like to think we are pretty important- we are but to our detriment sometimes. Where we put other professions or "lower skilled" clinicians down.

I'm pointing out that trying to blur the lines of practice is problematic and it can be dangerous (to the patient and a significant liability to the clinician). Unfortunately these types of assessment are not as clear to the general public and other professions as my surgery example.

But here's my deal, how to administer a test like say the ADOS2 isn't the same as surgery. Taking it a step further, fellow psychologists put value and judge others about what is harder and more complicated to administer and interpret. Who is more qualified to do it, who can and cannot, despite the person getting training and supervision.

It's not about judging ppl and saying something is harder; it's about protecting patients who often cannot protect themselves.

If someone misdiagnoses a child bc they jacked up the assessment, they can greatly (and typically negatively) impact that child's life.

If I'm brought in to do a capacity evaluation for medical decision-making and I don't know what I don't know, I could really screw someone's life up and not know it. I saw a clinician mess up an eval, the pt left AMA, and the pt was dead by the weekend. Sometimes that happens even when the right call is made, but do you want to roll the dice?

Lawyer: What formal training did you receive on capacity evaluation as it relates to medical decision-making?

Clinician: I'm allowed to do this assessment bc of my license.

Lawyer: What specialized knowledge is needed to complete this type of evaluation.

Clinician: The manual didn't cover that...

All the person asked about is, in Canada, what additional training would be most helpful to expand his competency. According to our standards, Masters and beyond, we should all be doing this, because that's what continuing education is for. Why not be kind and help out?

I don't think ppl here would recommend he pursue this path. As for kindness, I think the responses were helpful, though in contrast to the desired response. I'd rather have someone warn me before I make what sounds like a bad choice...but that's just me.

Ultimately they should call their local board and (ideally) consult with an expert from the area and hopefully speak with an attorney or at the very least dpeak with their malpractice insurance carrier.

 

[barryggg]

I'm pointing out that trying to blur the lines of practice is problematic and it can be dangerous (to the patient and a significant liability to the clinician). Unfortunately these types of assessment are not as clear to the general public and other professions as my surgery example.



It's not about judging ppl and saying something is harder; it's about protecting patients who often cannot protect themselves.

If someone misdiagnoses a child bc they jacked up the assessment, they can greatly (and typically negatively) impact that child's life.

If I'm brought in to do a capacity evaluation for medical decision-making and I don't know what I don't know, I could really screw someone's life up and not know it. I saw a clinician mess up an eval, the pt left AMA, and the pt was dead by the weekend. Sometimes that happens even when the right call is made, but do you want to roll the dice?

Lawyer: What formal training did you receive on capacity evaluation as it relates to medical decision-making?

Clinician: I'm allowed to do this assessment bc of my license.

Lawyer: What specialized knowledge is needed to complete this type of evaluation.

Clinician: The manual didn't cover that...



I don't think ppl here would recommend he pursue this path. As for kindness, I think the responses were helpful, though in contrast to the desired response. I'd rather have someone warn me before I make what sounds like a bad choice...but that's just me.

Ultimately they should call their local board and (ideally) consult with an expert from the area and hopefully speak with an attorney or at the very least dpeak with their malpractice insurance carrier.

Just like your horrible analogy..this didn't make any sense either.

The point of contention is not whether to get additional training..the question is, does it require a Clinical Psychology degree.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Didn't you go to like a Psy.d program where you paid through your a$$ to get that degree? It's rich to spend 100-200k, and buy your degree, and then talk about standards. You are telling someone who did their schooling for free, and went to great Universities, about standards.

They completed their training, jumped through the various training hoops, got licensed as a clinical psychologist, and they aren't trying to be something they are not.

You are asking how to get around the defined training path that has been established for competency....and when your desired response isn't provide you start throwing stones? Best of luck with your approach.

For prospective students/trainees reading this...this isn't the recommended approach to training. PSYDR provided a very real example of what can happen if you get caught practicing in contrast to the established competency standards.

 

[barryggg]

They completed their training, jumped through the various training hoops, got licensed as a clinical psychologist, and they aren't trying to be something they are not.

You are asking how to get around the defined training path that has been established for competency....and when your desired response isn't provide you start throwing stones? Best of luck with your approach.

For prospective students/trainees reading this...this isn't the recommended approach to training. PSYDR provided a very real example of what can happen if you get caught practicing in contrast to the established competency standards.

You have a major misunderstanding.

Who do you get 'caught by'?..it be your college (the place that gave you a license). Why would they have an issue with it if they prescribed the training?

You are just making up stuff now.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Just like your horrible analogy..this didn't make any sense either.

The point of contention is not whether to get additional training..the question is, does it require a Clinical Psychology degree.

The point is that you, yes you personally, don't know what you don't know. You don't have a basis for the skills (broadly speaking, across the multiple domains you have claimed competence on) to perform half of the duties that you claim to perform. So yes, you need a firm basis for all this specialized work 'you do' and I'm doubtful a CE course or a single class is going to do it.. because courses a single course won't make you competent when you are trying to perform within a given domain - much less re-specialize. Again, because you don't know when you are not competent.

c.f., https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/personality-measure-as-part-of-assessment-battery.1235879/

 

[barryggg]

The point is that you, yes you personally, don't know what you don't know. You don't have a basis for the skills (broadly speaking, across the multiple domains you have claimed competence on) to perform half of the duties that you claim to perform. So yes, you need a firm basis for all this specialized work 'you do' and I'm doubtful a CE course or a single class is going to do it.. because courses a single course won't make you competent when you are trying to perform within a given domain - much less re-specialize. Again, because you don't know when you are not competent.

c.f., https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/personality-measure-as-part-of-assessment-battery.1235879/

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

I'll go with the Psychological college..who gave me my license.

Ps it's not just a course. You have to have training under supervision to use the MMPI.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Didn't you go to like a Psy.d program where you paid through your a$$ to get that degree? It's rich to spend 100-200k, and buy your degree, and then talk about standards. You are telling someone who did their schooling for free, and went to great Universities, about standards.

Ad hominem combined with a straw man.

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[psych.meout]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

I'll go with the Psychological college..who gave me my license.

Ps it's not just a course. You have to have training under supervision to use the MMPI.

Hmm, I seem to remember someone cautioning against using self-report measures.

All self-report measures are pure bs.

...

You guys keep repeating this.

If someone was asked to self-report what kind of blood type they had..you'd laugh.

Not having answers to something is not an excuse for ****ty science. I'm sorry if you find this hurtful or annoying.

...

It's a problem because if you truly learned anything in your training it's that there is very little certain when it comes to psychological research..yet you use these instruments to make conclusions all the time and it impacts people's lives very negatively.

The alternative would be to say..look, we need to be humble, and we need to be a practical profession..let's utilize what works well (ie CBT)..for what it's good for..and stop trying to be pretend that we know more than we do..by using measures that are not valid and reliable. I'm not saying that we should not do further research..but this should not be incorporated into practice.

Though, I guess I wouldn't necessarily advise you to follow their advice, they are quite homophobic:

I'm not into flamers, sorry.