Your school pushing you to be an FP?

[bustbones26]

Hello all, I jsut wanted to start a thread here and ask osteopathic students if there school is like mine.

First, at my school, in our MS3 year, we ahve to take all of your basic rotations, FP, IM, surgery, OB/GYN, physch, Peds, etc. We only get one six week elective block.

Now, I look at my fourth year schedule and here is what I notice, my fourth year goes something like this:
4 weeks ER
4 weeks elective
8 weeks ambulatory medicine (working in an FP or IM outpatient clinic)
4 weeks of a primary care selective (FP, IM, PEDS, OB/GYN, must choose one of these areas only)

By this time, I will have to apply for the match and may be interviewing. Look at all of the primary care stuff I have to do!! With only 10 weeks of elective time, how am I ever going to decide if I want to do anything other than a primary care specialty?

Now, on my schools literature it states that their goal is to produce primary care physicians, when lecturers come to my school in specialties areas they all say "well , your all going in to FP so this is all you have to know!"

I have to admit, a lot of my classmates want to go into FP or IM. But I just wanted to know if all DO school were like this or if its just mine. It appears as if by the time I experience perhaps a specialty rotation that I may like and want to do for a living, I will probably have already matched somewhere for residency.

Do all DO schools push there students to be primary care?

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[Dr JPH]

I think the focus is on primary care, but this is what the foundation of medicine is built on.


At PCOM we get one month in MS3 for electives and 5 months in MS4.

I think a great deal of the faculty gear their lectures towards primary care because 50% of is will go that route. But to say they force us into that or discourage specializing would be untrue.

 

[Idiopathic]

The foundation of osteopathic medical schools is on primary care. The reason we see D.O. schools popping up more frequently is because of the agreement that the osteopaths will pump out primary care physicians for underserved communities, etc. Everything my school does is to lead you into primary care, without forcing you.

 

[doc05]

don't let your school force you into FP!!

 

[Adapt]

I say the goal of DO schools should be to produce primary physicians. This is exactly the reason why I like DO schools so much. I think that if anyone wants to specialize, they shouldn't go to a DO school and instead should try to be an MD.

Our country needs to fill the shortage of primary care physicians in the US and Osteopathic medicine does a good job in doing that.

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

slickness.....there is no shortage of primary care docs in this country..........it's a lot more political than that. it has to do with economics!

and yes....at osteopathic schools, the focus is primary care. but i feel absolutely no pressure to go into primary care here at ccom. in fact, myself and many other students here plan on specializing.

 

[Molly Maquire]

This whole way of thinking really annoys me. Is there anything in AT Still's writings that indicates he believed the only appropriate career for a physician is rural family practice? In fact, I think he also encouraged students to perform surgery. THis type of misguided thinking is why the public profile of the osteopathic profession is so low.

I think students should be required to take one clerkship in FP/ambulatory medicine. After that, those students who are interested in FP can do their electives in this area, so that students who are interested in other areas can have more elective time.

 

[Heeed!]

At NSU, we get a total of 5 electives, 3 of which have to be in primary care.

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

at CCOM we get 1 month for an elective as an MS-III
and 5 months for electives as an MS-IV.

None of those electives must be in primary care. They can be in anything you choose.

 

[LukeWhite]

I vaguely recall a study that came out last year concluding that the US was going to be massively short of primary care doctors over the next few decades due to the unexpected population growth between the '90 and '00 census. The number of additional primary care docs beyond projections was some grotesquely larger number; 200,000 sounds familiar, though my zeroes may be wrong.

Personally, I think there's a need for osteopathic specialists too. Better to fill the gap by building new schools (which seems to be the plan.) However, I do think there's a place for osteopathic schools that explicitly brand themselves as exceptionally friendly towards primary care. Those who know without a doubt that they'll be going into primary care should certainly have the option of schools built around that, so that more time can be spent on practice and less on white elephants.

 

[DOtobe]

LECOM's mission statement includes "training of primary care physicians" so I think they would prefer most of their graduates to pursue a primary care field. But I don't think they are "pressuring" us. We get a lot of elective time (6 weeks in our third year and 16 weeks in our fourth year) that we can use to explore any area of medicine we want. We also have an Ambulatory rotation and a primary care selective in our fourth year, and a family practice rotation in our third year. So I think we do get a lot of exposure to primary care, but there is certainly room to pursue any interests you may have. I think a lot of people in my class do want to specialize.

Our pathology professor asked us once, "How many of you are planning on going into primary care?" and only two people raised their hands (myself being one). (Granted, there were probably only about 40 people in the class, but still...) And his reply was, "Oh, I'll be sure to tell the dean how enthusiastic about primary care you all are. She'll be thrilled that the school is achieving its mission."

 

[njdo]

Good ole' Ziggy...he still asks the same thing about twice a month for our class. At least you had two people raise their hand...we usually have one.

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by njdo
Good ole' Ziggy...he still asks the same thing about twice a month for our class. At least you had two people raise their hand...we usually have one.

Out of curiosity, how many people actually show up in your class? I actually usually went to Ziggy's class (until the end of second year when I started skipping to study for boards) because I thought he was very entertaining

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by Slickness
I think that if anyone wants to specialize, they shouldn't go to a DO school and instead should try to be an MD.

What if someone is unsure and decides during school (DO) that they want to specialize?

Oh, silly me, I guess they should just drop out and then redo their education at an MD school.

Regardless of what some people think, there are some DOs that are interested in specializing, and even.....gasp! ............research!!!

(Once I heard a rumor that there was a DO who wanted to live in a suburban area!! )

Believe it or not, there are people with more serious and specific health problems that need good treatment too!

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that osteos take the challenge to bring medicine to the places that need it most, but there is a tremendous amount of good we can do in ALL specialties.

I had this crazy idea to pick the field that fits me best, so that I will actually be happy and my patients would benefit. I also had the crazy idea that if I could bring my osteopathic tradition and background with me it would help the profession rather than hurt it.

Guess I'm just a dumb schmuck!

 

[Teufelhunden]

It kills me how osteo schools (and some MD schools) try so hard to screen applicants in effort to increase their primary care #s.

Seriously, how many MS-1's know exactly what field of medicine they're going into? Most of us end up changing our minds 100 times or so. The rest are like me, and don't even pretend to know what the hell we want to do.

So, my point is...there's really no way of knowing who's going to do what, so they should just "give it up."

The first two years at OUCOM, their number one goal seems to brainwash us all into going into rural primary care. We even had professors who would refer to our entire class as "future primary care physicians."

Our ophtho professor...and MD, practicing ophthomologist...told our class that we should all just basically refer any complicated eye cases to him since we'd all be doing primary care (he even assumed we'd all be staying in SE Ohio!)

Anyway....no way in hell I'm doing primary care...so....so much for the brainwashing.

 

[Adapt]

DOs should stick to primary care. Most DO schools include in their mission that one of their goals is to train primary care physicians.

That is where DOs excell the best in and that's where they can be of the most help. The whole philosophy of osteopathy is geared toward primary care.

I just believe that if a DO wants to specialize he or she might as well have been an MD.

 

[emma ryburn]

it seams to me that alot of you do not trully appreciate the skills you are learning otherwise you would not be deciding to specialise in the likes of anethsiology (excuse any bad spelling). explain when you would practice OMM then? or perhaps radiology? there are many specialties out there yet not many that are applicable to your studies as osteopaths.
all I seem to read on these forums is wether or not u will specialise, if you will earn enough money ( someone qouted $300k) and if your better than MDs or not!! granted I do feel sorry for you with such huge loans to worry about, but isn't there more to osteo than that? its all very materialistic.
maybe there is room to discuss how exciting and rewarding it is to relieve old ma Higgens "frozen shoulder" or resetting timmy's dislocated finger and big hug/smile of thanks you received
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm warm fuzzies are great!!

 

[VentdependenT]

Originally posted by emma ryburn
it seams to me that alot of you do not trully appreciate the skills you are learning otherwise you would not be deciding to specialise in the likes of anethsiology (excuse any bad spelling). explain when you would practice OMM then? or perhaps radiology?

I guess I should limit myself to finding residency that allows me to use my knowledge of biochemistry because I learned that in medical school too.

 

[luckystar]

Originally posted by VentdependenT
I guess I should limit myself to finding residency that allows me to use my knowledge of biochemistry because I learned that in medical school too.

Exactly!! DO does not equal OMM. The "philosophy" can be applied to any field of medicine. There's so much more we're learning in our OMM class than how to do manipulations, because we are presented with the concepts behind it, the anatomy and biomechanics, and not merely promised that this form of treatment will cure everything. And I don't feel in any way that I'm being pushed towards any particular field. In fact, one of our deans is a surgeon himself.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
It kills me how osteo schools (and some MD schools) try so hard to screen applicants in effort to increase their primary care #s.

Seriously, how many MS-1's know exactly what field of medicine they're going into? Most of us end up changing our minds 100 times or so. The rest are like me, and don't even pretend to know what the hell we want to do.

So, my point is...there's really no way of knowing who's going to do what, so they should just "give it up."

The first two years at OUCOM, their number one goal seems to brainwash us all into going into rural primary care. We even had professors who would refer to our entire class as "future primary care physicians."

Our ophtho professor...and MD, practicing ophthomologist...told our class that we should all just basically refer any complicated eye cases to him since we'd all be doing primary care (he even assumed we'd all be staying in SE Ohio!)

Anyway....no way in hell I'm doing primary care...so....so much for the brainwashing.

Same thing happens in my school, and it makes me..........

I haven't a clue what field I like, but for crying out loud, I don't want to feel like I'm getting short-changed on my education because our guest lecturers assume everyone is going to be in FP.

That is inane.

Gee, maybe we should just be like England and only be allowed to do manipulation and nothing else

I didn't sign a friggin agreement to stick to sore throats and well-woman visits. I could have gone to NP school if that was the case.


Today was a terrible day and I'm sure I'm showing it

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by Slickness
DOs should stick to primary care. Most DO schools include in their mission that one of their goals is to train primary care physicians.

That is where DOs excell the best in and that's where they can be of the most help. The whole philosophy of osteopathy is geared toward primary care.

I just believe that if a DO wants to specialize he or she might as well have been an MD.

I hope you are joking in your above post.

Q, DO

 

[LukeWhite]

Osteopathic schools certainly shouldn't turn out FPs and nothing else. There's a clear place for the osteopathic philosophy in most specialities.

That being said, osteopathic schools DO explicitly focus on turning out primary care doctors more than anything. That's obviously got to involve some "short-changing" in lectures. If more time is spent on those areas more crucial to primary care, less time is going to be spent on the other areas. If more time isn't spent on those areas, then the osteopathic philosophy is just lip service anyhow.

I tend to be suspicious of arguments that go something like, "Well, I really want to bring the osteopathic philosophy into my incredibly subspecialized field of choice, but it's so hard getting that residency with all these classes geared towards the osteopathic philosophy getting in the way."

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
Osteopathic schools certainly shouldn't turn out FPs and nothing else. There's a clear place for the osteopathic philosophy in most specialities.

That being said, osteopathic schools DO explicitly focus on turning out primary care doctors more than anything. That's obviously got to involve some "short-changing" in lectures. If more time is spent on those areas more crucial to primary care, less time is going to be spent on the other areas. If more time isn't spent on those areas, then the osteopathic philosophy is just lip service anyhow.

I tend to be suspicious of arguments that go something like, "Well, I really want to bring the osteopathic philosophy into my incredibly subspecialized field of choice, but it's so hard getting that residency with all these classes geared towards the osteopathic philosophy getting in the way."

Fine with me on gearing towards PC. But I don't see how giving a little more info in a ophtho lecture is going to get in the way of my learning primary care or the osteopathic philosophy.

I have to learn about zebras that I will never see or treat in real life in pathology, but to say that this somehow "takes away" from the osteopathic philosophy or PC is asinine.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by QuinnNSU
I hope you are joking in your above post.

Q, DO

It's not a joke. If anyone wants to specialize I suggest not going the DO route unless you couldn't get into an MD school. It's just my opinion and I know some may disagree.

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Originally posted by Slickness
It's not a joke. If anyone wants to specialize I suggest not going the DO route unless you couldn't get into an MD school. It's just my opinion and I know some may disagree.

slickness.....what are you smoking?!?!?! you aren't even in med school yet and you seem to know everything!

How could you even fathom suggesting to someone not to go D.O. if they want to specailize!?!?!? That is naive, and a bunch of nonsense!

I am not trying to pick on you, nor am I trying to demean you in any way at all. I just know that your statements are ridiculous. Osteopathic medicine is a holistic approach to medicine. It's philosophy can be used to approach any and every specialty in medicine.

I think a much better statement on your part would be to say that YOU are interested in primary care, and you feel that osteopathic medicine fits your personal ideals and goals. Please don't preach to people who want to be specialists that they shouldn't become a D.O.!!!

I got into osteopathic and allopathic schools, and I chose this route because I felt it was a good fit. I do NOT want to be a primary care physician, and I AM in the right place for what I want to do.

I am sure that most other med students and post-grads will agree with me.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

i concur with the above.

many DO schools agree with the primary care thing - they want to put out more primary care physicians...it's a noble thing to do. but from what i've heard and gathered, an education in medical school is only a basis of everything after. does an MD/DO who is a dermatologist get a different education than an MD/DO who is an internist at the same school? Nope. Every med student gets the same education regardless of what they want to be.

That being said, if a DO school can prepare someone to be a primary care physcian, then a DO school can prepare someone to be a specialty too...the education is the same for everyone and it's in residency that you learn how to do your job forrealz.

Few people would dispute that getting an education at a foreign school isn't that great. But I know a few people who did their education overseas in the Phillipinnes, or Caribbean who are doing really well in their job...and they're OB/GYN's or even oncologists.

 

[Adapt]

I know that there are a lot of DOs who specialize and make great doctors. It is just that if I knew that I wanted to not enter into primary care and be a surgeon instead, I would go the MD route because it would be an easier ride to a good residency. That's all.

I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments. As I said, it's just my opinion.
My comments weren't meant to piss anyone off. It's just my view on things.

 

[DO for ophtho]

What's OMM? I dunno about you guys, but I learned jack about OMM my 3rd year......hopefully I won't be SOL for boards!!

 

[NDESTRUKT]

no offense taken slickness...i hope you get into COMP!!!!! =)

I know you wanna stay close by home in CA and that's a really noble thing that you're doing...honestly.

j^p

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by NDESTRUKT
no offense taken slickness...i hope you get into COMP!!!!! =)

I know you wanna stay close by home in CA and that's a really noble thing that you're doing...honestly.

j^p

Thanks. I hope I get in also.

Actually, friends, family, and just about anyone I ask say I'm crazy if I do choose COMP over an MD school. Only a few say that I should go where I would be the most happy, which I believe to be COMP right now.

Of course, my decision would be much easier if I do get rejected from COMP. I should find out by friday.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by Icewoman
Primary care blows... you work harder than everyone else and get paid half as much. Get out now before it's too late!

You should've come to dental school. We're predominantly primary care, and it rocks

 

[aphistis]

Having a different set of initials, to me, isn't worth the sacrifice in income and free time. Having said that, it's obviously a personal choice that will vary from one person to the next. Of course, having said <em>that</em>, you don't seem too thrilled with your current lot.

As for "minimal amount of thinking and work," please don't tell me you're another one who thinks dentists are ignorant quacks.

 

[kpax18]

Originally posted by Icewoman
Primary care blows... you work harder than everyone else and get paid half as much. Get out now before it's too late!

 

[sophiejane]

I just love these declamatory, broad statements from MS1s and below. It cracks me up. What the heck do you people know about "medicine" ? You know JACK ALL (just like me). Ice Woman knows NOTHING about practicing primary care medicine and Slickness knows NOTHING about getting into residency programs. It may sound harsh but you all know it is true. You have "heard" things from other people and have received a number of biased opinions but you have zero-zilch-nada personal experience.

Don't even get me started on "easier ride" into residency. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? Have YOU gone through the match? And like I have said before, why on earth would any patient want as their physician someone who got an "easy ride" into a residency, which is where most of the learning to be a doctor happens, as I understand it. I think I'd much rather have someone who had to jump through lots of hoops and truly prove themselves as my doctor.

Let's show a bit of humility, shall we, and admit that perusing SDN does not make one an expert on the field of medicine.

With that I shall descend my soapboax and get back to neuro....

 

[DrQuinn]

sophie is right.

As pre-meds and M1s (even M2s) you know little about what real medicine is about, what medical education is about, what osteopathic education is about, and residency matching, (as well as prejudice towards DOs).

Q, DO

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
Don't even get me started on "easier ride" into residency. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? Have YOU gone through the match? And like I have said before, why on earth would any patient want as their physician someone who got an "easy ride" into a residency

Hey sophie, I don't realize why you're so hostile toward that statement especially since you said basically the same thing in another thread.

Originally posted by sophiejane
1. if you are interested in doing rads, plastics, etc. and want an easier ride into an allopathic residency, GO MD

 

[sophiejane]

Touchhe. Damn search function....

I do think that that statement was taken somewhat out of context, however. It was meant as a summary of things that had been posted previously, and not as a direct representation of my personal beliefs...

I guess that discrepancy also shows that my understanding of the world of medicine is evolving and changing constantly as I become a part of it. Every day I am humbled by how little I really understand about it, and how ridiculous my preconceived notions of how this whole medical game works.

I didn't mean to sound hostile. Or if I did, I am over it now. I just think there is a tremendous amount of hot air being blown around by people who don't really know what they are talking about sometimes. I include myself in that and I am making a conscious effort not to make statements about things I don't have firsthand knowledge about.

One thing I am learning very well as a medical student is how very little I know. In fact, I really think the more I learn the less I know...

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
I didn't mean to sound hostile. Or if I did, I am over it now. I just think there is a tremendous amount of hot air being blown around by people who don't really know what they are talking about sometimes. I include myself in that and I am making a conscious effort not to make statements about things I don't have firsthand knowledge about.

One thing I am learning very well as a medical student is how very little I know. In fact, I really think the more I learn the less I know...

It's cool. I don't know much either. I guess I shouldn't just rely on perceptions on SDN.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by sophiejane
I guess that discrepancy also shows that my understanding of the world of medicine is evolving and changing constantly as I become a part of it. Every day I am humbled by how little I really understand about it, and how ridiculous my preconceived notions of how this whole medical game works.
One thing I am learning very well as a medical student is how very little I know. In fact, I really think the more I learn the less I know...

You are indeed very humble. There are others on this site that need to be as level headed as you, Icewoman being numero uno...

Even in the past year, going through the match, graduating, becoming an intern, donning the long coat for the first time, pronouncing my first patient dead, and now, for the second time this month, telling someone they won't walk again because they have a spinal cord injury from a car accident, really humbles you, and in the end, nothing that we all really talk about here on this site really matters. Not the DO/MD issue (I don't think my patient cared that I was the one running his trauma code, that I was the one starting the steroid protocol), not the DO schools pushing for primary care, not the pre-med who wonders if they should go DO if they want to do ortho... none of that matters. Partly because none of you know what its really like to be in medicine, and to realize how LITTLE of the DO/MD issue really means.

And the neurosurgery resident that I staffed the patient with is a DO. At an MD institution.

Q, DO

 

[Idiopathic]

Originally posted by Molly Maquire
Is there anything in AT Still's writings that indicates he believed the only appropriate career for a physician is rural family practice?

No, but it is in the accreditation proposal for every osteopathic medical school. This is why our schools are allowd to coexist, is because we train a population of physicians that the allopathic schools, for the most part, would rather not.

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by Icewoman
Sophiejane, before you tell me that I know nothing about primary care, let me tell you that both my parents are in primary care fields and that I know what their lives are like. The first thing that comes out of their (as well as their doctor-friend's) mouths is to avoid primary care like the plague.

On the other hand, their friends that sub-specialized are happy as can be! Anyways, I hope you really do enjoy primary care.

...so, instead of making a blanket statement like "primary care blows", what you could have said originally was that you knew people who weren't happy in primary care. I know a number of people who are happy in primary care. But I would never tell someone not to do something because I knew some people who were unhappy doing it. There are many factors involved in job satisfaction.

Part of the reason why your statements here are often percieved as arrogant and immature is because you paint the world black and white. What are you, maybe 21 or 22? Well, I guess I did the same thing at that age. Experience will teach you that the world is way more shades of gray than black and white.

By the way, right now my interest is in endocrinology, which requires an IM (primary care) residency then a fellowship in endocrine. That may change down the line, but I do know that with an IM residency there are lots of doors opened up for me to specialize if I decide to do that.

 

[sophiejane]

That's funny--I thought you said you were already a student at a "top ten medical school"....UPenn, I believe?

So you are just now applying, you aren't in school yet?

You have misrepresented yourself as a medical student, is that what you are saying, or did we misunderstand you?

 

[sophiejane]

I PMed you to finish this exchange, Icewoman.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by Icewoman
<sigh> read my past posts my absent-minded friend... I am currently applying for Ophthalmology RESIDENCY. That is why I talk about Ophtho all of the time.

So what in the world are you doing hanging out so much on an osteopathic board? If you go to a residency interview and they ask "So what do you do in your spare time?" are you going to answer "Well, I hang out on the internet hassling DO students all day."

Honestly, take a look at the things you write and ask yourself "Is this really how I want to represent myself?" For your professional sake, I hope not.

 

[Elysium]

I think I'd rather shoot both my eyes out with a handgun than have that Evil Bitch Icewoman be my (eye) doctor.

By the way, Icegal, are you going to be an OD or an MD?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

As you were.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by Icewoman
This is just a form of entertainment for me.... probably for many of you also.

Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. You can't be a complete jerk on the internet and a saint in real life. But good luck trying.

 

[Elysium]

I like your style, you evil beast.

You're as much of a bitch as I am! Maybe more so!

As a matter of fact I'm too big a bitch to let into PA schools. The real dinguses have to go to MD school. The sane, humble kids go to DO school.

Which one were you in, again?

Anyway, Icegal, I'm sure you and I could have some fun in the bar ripping apart people of all professions!

Later.

 

[Elysium]

I thought you were such a genius...

OK, you called me a PA student. I thought we were going to get into some verbal banter for "entertainment purposes" but maybe not.

BTW, I need to get some new contacts. Can you hook me up?

 

[Elysium]

Thank god, you ARE a genius, after all!

 

[kpax18]

Originally posted by Icewoman
This is just a form of entertainment for me.... probably for many of you also.

Is this how you spend your friday night?
yikes