You’ve been made, all 10 of you

[DYK343]

Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that LECOM is opening a school as well…?

Seriously???? I took a month off from the message boards and must have missed this. Now that I think about it I kind of remember opening the link. I must have blocked this out due to how ridiculous it is.

We drastically need a leadership change

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

But Dr Rogers is bragging about how much they are going to pay Dr Harkless at the UT school.

Prospective students need to look through the smoke screens here. This is not good for podiatry.

Haters are gonna hate. C/O 2013-2015 was screwed over horribly by Western. We have not forgotten those who put us in that position and never will.

Dr. Rogers did not mention Dr. Harkless specifically. I believe you're in error on this accusation.

It's hard to change a personal perspective. I've been in practice 31 years. I don't believe this is a "smoke screen". The UTRGV SOP will set a new and improved standard.

Living in the past is never helpful. Best to focus on the future and make a plan for success.

 

[111111194]

Anonymous haters gonna hate.

On one hand, some of you complain about the ROI of Podiatry education, then a new state-sponsored school comes along with low/reasonable tuition, and you still complain.

You complain about the quality of education, then the UTRGV school has recruited some real stars as professors (and they’re about to announce another) and you still complain.

You complain about podiatry salaries, and the UTRGV school pays UT wages, far higher than other podiatry schools making them more competitive, and you still complain.

You complain that the applicant pool is too small. Then the UTRGV school doesn’t even participate in AACPMAS, they have their own in-state applicant pool. Already 150 applications for next year (deadline isn’t until June), and you still complain.

You throw around insults like it’s rural, on the border, no one wants to live there, yet look …

The State of Texas believes podiatry is so invaluable to the state that they’re spending tax dollars to educate and create more DPMs here and improve the health of Texans. It’s a moment you should be proud of for the whole profession.

I’m proud of what they’re doing.

#PodiatryForward

Why is anyone wasting their breath and being polite when responding to this? He is intentionally evading discussion of any real issues.

This is the podiatry way… denial, misdirection, misinformation.

As if another crappy podiatry college is going to save the profession 🙄. All it is going to do is ensure another residency crisis. A few greedy people will be well paid though.

 

[DYK343]

Dr. Rogers did not mention Dr. Harkless specifically. I believe you're in error on this accusation.

It's hard to change a personal perspective. I've been in practice 31 years. I don't believe this is a "smoke screen". The UTRGV SOP will set a new and improved standard.

Living in the past is never helpful. Best to focus on the future and make a plan for success.

its not an error. Its the same people doing the same things.

Dr Rogers was on here a few months ago. This is not the first time this convo has been spoken on here.

Edit. I posted the wrong UTRGV link regarding previous discussions about the issue.

 

[deleted1138023]

I like Dr. Rodgers just the texas homerism isn’t what most of us are complaining about lol.

 

[DYK343]

I like Dr. Rodgers just the texas homerism isn’t what most of us are complaining about lol.

I've met Dr Rogers a couple times. Good speaker and overall very intelligent guy. Good reputation as a clinician. I have no qualms with Dr Rogers as a person/clinician/speaker.

But I dont support opening schools when we cant pay our graduates a fair salary OR having enough residencies for graduates. Trying to get hoards of people to cover up some major issues in our profession is wrong and does nothing good for the profession long term. Short term it will fill those seats ($$$$) but long term does nothing to better the profession.

The new school(s) are wrong and nothing more than a money grab.

 

[podwho]

All I know is that the current reality is - trash salary for 7 years of work for new grads. Across the board. It’s one thing to say the bottom 25% are getting bad offers. But truth is 75% get bad offers. I would love to see the job offers students from Texas get. This conversation is about money full stop. No one loves the profession that much to give up 7 yrs to not make over 150.


To add to this

To say we “need” more applicants and a new school and they get quality training is ignoring the bigger question.. do we “need” more podiatrists? If there was a demand then the simple thought of applying to North Dakota for a job shouldn’t cross my mind. All you new grads know exactly what I’m talking about.

 

[SouthPod7]

Compared to the VA staff podiatrist max of 243k(280k service chief)

Omnibus spending bill sets higher maximum salaries for some VA health care workers

Registered nurses and physicians assistants working at the Veterans Affairs Department will soon have a higher maximum salary, as part of an effort in Congress to reduce record turnover among the VA’s health care workforce.

federalnewsnetwork.com

https://www.va.gov/OHRM/Pay/2021/PhysicianDentist/PayTables_20210103.pdf

Curious, what was the salary cap of a VA Podiatrist before the MISSION Act was passed?

 

[air bud]

Interviewing today at a hospital with no podiatrist that serves about 80,000 people an hour and a half out of a top 10 metro area. Never had their own podiatrist, crazy to think how many people will never have this experience as a podiatrist. Every single person I meet today excited for me to come provide services etc etc but this is just standard operating procedure for any other MD or do looking for a job but the vast vast majority of Podiatry profession will never experience it. To feel wanted and desired and that your service is matter and impact a community. Certainly not trying to diminish non-hospital employed people just saying it's just different for Podiatry but for all other specialties completely normal. So many patients for you to see, we're going to build this out for you, what can we add to make your job easier etc etc. Instead of the owner's wife telling you on surgery days you need to come back and see more patients, you need to do house calls and then go out and do your own marketing and maybe you will have a few patients to start.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Dr. Rogers - I appreciate your insights. If I may ask, why do you keep ignoring my questions and other posters questions and concerns? The school is clearly a red flag despite what you may think are positives. Experienced posters - young and old here are echoing similar concerns. How is this new school going to solve anything? Do you really believe the demand for podiatrists is increasing despite a terrible return of investment for the majority? Yes, some will do very well. Some will do fairly well. But at what cost?

Is the new school going to create new residency programs? Are any of the governing boards going to be closely monitoring the quality of the education and the quality of residency programs it should be helping create? Furthermore, it may have great professors. That’s awesome. But how does that translate into a well polished final product - a well compensated, highly trained, podiatrist. I’m sorry but the inaugural class of 27 students are not all going to be graduating and going on to reap the rewards they were led to believe. I can’t support ABPM when it continues to make statements that are not true. We are young, practicing podiatrists that have gone through the entire process

 

[newfeet]

Interviewing today at a hospital with no podiatrist that serves about 80,000 people an hour and a half out of a top 10 metro area. Never had their own podiatrist, crazy to think how many people will never have this experience as a podiatrist. Every single person I meet today excited for me to come provide services etc etc but this is just standard operating procedure for any other MD or do looking for a job but the vast vast majority of Podiatry profession will never experience it. To feel wanted and desired and that your service is matter and impact a community. Certainly not trying to diminish non-hospital employed people just saying it's just different for Podiatry but for all other specialties completely normal. So many patients for you to see, we're going to build this out for you, what can we add to make your job easier etc etc. Instead of the owner's wife telling you on surgery days you need to come back and see more patients, you need to do house calls and then go out and do your own marketing and maybe you will have a few patients to start.

I've experienced this. Even at my current role where there was a podiatrist before. I definitely have mixed feelings about podiatry. My experience with my patients and employers have been pretty good but none of my job locations have ever been in my top ten places.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

Interviewing today at a hospital with no podiatrist that serves about 80,000 people an hour and a half out of a top 10 metro area. Never had their own podiatrist, crazy to think how many people will never have this experience as a podiatrist. Every single person I meet today excited for me to come provide services etc etc but this is just standard operating procedure for any other MD or do looking for a job but the vast vast majority of Podiatry profession will never experience it. To feel wanted and desired and that your service is matter and impact a community. Certainly not trying to diminish non-hospital employed people just saying it's just different for Podiatry but for all other specialties completely normal. So many patients for you to see, we're going to build this out for you, what can we add to make your job easier etc etc. Instead of the owner's wife telling you on surgery days you need to come back and see more patients, you need to do house calls and then go out and do your own marketing and maybe you will have a few patients to start.

Congratulations!

"Instead of the owner's wife telling you on surgery days you need to come back and see more patients, you need to do house calls and then go out and do your own marketing and maybe you will have a few patients to start." LOL

Make us look good!

 

[icebreaker32]

Curious, what was the salary cap of a VA Podiatrist before the MISSION Act was passed?

I believe the highest paid made about 174K prior to the mission act. The highest paid today makes about 283K.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Dr. Rogers did not mention Dr. Harkless specifically. I believe you're in error on this accusation.

I didn't mention Dr. Harkless, but I'm always happy to. Regular SDN posters (who have probably never met him) tend to be unkind to his legacy or his motives. Which I find disheartening. I've never met a man more dedicated to podiatry parity, education, and training than Dr. Harkless. He is kind-hearted and has never been motivated by money.

He's no longer the Dean of UTRGV SOP. He's not financially benefitting from the school. He started the school, which was his dream to create a state-sponsored school in the UT system. Dr. LaFontaine is now the Dean and Dr. Harkless has moved back to San Antonio in the same house he's owned for decades.

On the wall of the reception to my academic office hangs photos of 2 giants. Dr. Larry Harkless and Dr. Louis T. Bogy, who started the first University podiatry clinic with a single room, literally in a janitor's closet that they moved the mops and buckets out and Dr. Bogy in back in 1954. Dr. Bogy was instrumental in getting podiatrists surgical and hospital privileges in Texas. He started the UTHSA residency program in 1972 (the first podiatry residency in a medical school) and lobbied to get the Texas Legislature to approve a podiatry school in the UT system in 1973. UTRGV is the realization of that 49 years later.

Harkless did his residency at UTHSA in 1978. He became faculty and then Chief of Podiatry and Residency Director and trained an entire wall of residents over decades.

I see some belittle this program claiming it is just for "diabetic pus" or has low RRA numbers. That is just plain false, we have great outside rotations with Marty Chaney, Marque Allen, Richard Perez, the VA podiatrists, and many others where they get non-diabetic elective cases, reconstruction, and trauma. However, this program is most known for our work in diabetes preventing amputations. Our patients are extremely sick with multiple co-morbidities. We have a busy inpatient and surgical service where residents work on a team with all other specialties and learn to manage these complex patients. This is to be applauded, not demeaned. People with diabetes facing amputation need a podiatrist's expertise! A podiatrist with this subspecialty will be in high demand. Additionally, it is my goal to create future leaders out of students and residents.

The program is so well-regarded in this academic medical center, next year podiatry will have its own floor of the hospital with our own 4 operating rooms. This is only possible, coming from a mop closet when no one knew what a podiatrist was, through the leadership of people like Bogy and Harkless.

 

[DYK343]

Its because he screwed 3 classes of graduates.

Ruined some peoples lives for that matter.

CPME had a rule that they were not to graduate a single student unless they made enough residencies for all graduates. Well once they were ready to graduate their first class they created 1-3 residency spots total. The CPME decided it was unfair to punish the Western graduates and spread the punishment across all the schools and allowed those students to graduate. This absolutely ruined some peoples lives and careers. 10% did not get a residency.

Its happening again. The risk to go into podiatry right now is far too high with current leadership making these decisions.

Smoke and mirrors. $$$.

 

[Poddy2Hotty]

Anonymous haters gonna hate.

On one hand, some of you complain about the ROI of Podiatry education, then a new state-sponsored school comes along with low/reasonable tuition, and you still complain.

You complain about the quality of education, then the UTRGV school has recruited some real stars as professors (and they’re about to announce another) and you still complain.

You complain about podiatry salaries, and the UTRGV school pays UT wages, far higher than other podiatry schools making them more competitive, and you still complain.

You complain that the applicant pool is too small. Then the UTRGV school doesn’t even participate in AACPMAS, they have their own in-state applicant pool. Already 150 applications for next year (deadline isn’t until June), and you still complain.

You throw around insults like it’s rural, on the border, no one wants to live there, yet look …

The State of Texas believes podiatry is so invaluable to the state that they’re spending tax dollars to educate and create more DPMs here and improve the health of Texans. It’s a moment you should be proud of for the whole profession.

I’m proud of what they’re doing.

#PodiatryForward

I think Dr. Rogers has been and is still a fantastic proponent for our profession. As a student I looked up to him for all the things he was pushing for in expanding the scope of podiatry. He has done much more for the profession than the 99.9% of us. I have nothing but respect for the man.

The only thing I would ask is to get more opinions from recent grads/new associates as well as established providers prior to implementing large changes, such as creating a new school. I say this because the road to hell is paved with good intentions and while it is admirable that the Texas school will have reduced tuition and an all star facility the overall number of grads will increase. Talk to anyone that has applied for positions in a larger city/metro and they will tell you positions with MGMA mean/median compensation are few and far between. The job market is weak and has been for some time. It is reminiscent of what happened to Pharmacists (oversupply stagnated salaries and made good jobs hard to find).

As many others on here have stated. The bar needs to be raised. ABFAS is a tough but reachable standard with the right training. Anyone that has had trouble with the exam and requirements should be asking what the system has done to let them down. The profession as a whole should come together and raise basic standards which would mean decreasing enrollment. This would obviously be financially painful for the schools, but completely doable. Some of the weaker residencies should be merged or removed. Minimum numbers should be increased. Most historically strong programs hit 2-3x the minimum numbers. Imagine if all programs were at that level.

Sticking with the Marvel theme...

 

[Scrantonicity]

Instead of the owner's wife telling you on surgery days you need to come back and see more patients, you need to do house calls and then go out and do your own marketing and maybe you will have a few patients to start.

Man, I felt this. Why is it soooo universal that the owner's wife has to be involved in screwing a young associate over? I'm sure it's not just podiatry, right???

 

[air bud]

Man, I felt this. Why is it soooo universal that the owner's wife has to be involved in screwing a young associate over? I'm sure it's not just podiatry, right???

Well in my Ortho job the owners wife was there a lot and I know she didn't like
me....don't get me wrong trying to get her to understand amnio and the reimbursement and then billing company completely screwing things up and having 60k outstanding for months and months and questions being asked didn't help....will have more of my story to tell in coming weeks.

 

[icebreaker32]

Man, I felt this. Why is it soooo universal that the owner's wife has to be involved in screwing a young associate over? I'm sure it's not just podiatry, right???

Not sure if you are asking a serious question, but it happens out of necessity. It is partially a podiatry thing, but really more of a solo practice thing. There is more solo practice left in podiatry than most other specialties.

If the wife is not making a good salary outside the office she can learn the job, have good attendance and be trusted with money at the practice....basically an office manager.

As the practice grows the wife can train the employees that turnover and have some flexibility to pickup the kids from school and not always be in the office, but still can be trusted with the money.

The screwing over part is just because money was very tight in the early years and if she is still working in the office is resentful she is not living the life of a doctor's wife. She needs to come on this forum and realize things are often different as the wife of a podiatrist.

If/when the office has really grown it would probably be better for the marriage and business to let go......some wives have a hard time letting go and others are happy to. The wife would probably still be on the books as an employee even if not working at all as a bookkeeper etc for tax reasons.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Curious, what was the salary cap of a VA Podiatrist before the MISSION Act was passed?

About 160k (maybe 166) - it was the GS scale so basically you only could go as high as the GS payscale went. I’m sure it’s searchable online.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

About 160k (maybe 166) - it was the GS scale so basically you only could go as high as the GS payscale went. I’m sure it’s searchable online.

Back in 2016 in NY:

 

[PeaJay]

I am actually optimistic about the new school.

There will certainly be winners and losers as this plays out, but I believe it might be the thing that forces this profession to change. There is no question that some of our schools are stronger than others. Western SOP and now UTRGV SOP will graduate well rounded providers with a strong medical background. I would like to think that these standards will drag our profession into the future (possibly kicking and screaming). Almost everyone on this forum wants higher standards and a better product from our schools. This new school shows promise in producing the product of which we hope and dream.

I still remember being taught by professors that had no business teaching. I recall being taught antiquated techniques and information. I remember spending months of my life being a servant to VA residencies and county hospitals clipping nails day in and out. I remember being forced to come back to school on holiday break to clip nails because the "rotations needed us". The only classes I learned a darn thing in were the MD classes (and lower extremity anatomy). Okay, thats a bit of an exaggeration about the classes, but it is not far from the truth. I believe 30-40% of my educational experience was squandered. That is a travesty because I paid for that time/education.

It sounds as if this school is going to provide a better education at a better price point. If that is true, I would be happy to have it put my place of education out of business. That process is going to hurt, but it will advance our profession. Our current schools have failed us. It is time to build anew and outcompete.

As for residency shortages, people will be hurt. It will be unfortunate. I only hope the schools that produce poor products suffer and close swiftly to hasten the process.

In summary, the school should advance the profession.

EDIT: as clarification, I am not for adding schools. However in this case the school is opening for good or worse. I am just trying to see a silver lining.

 

[dtrack22]

I would like to think that these standards will drag our profession into the future (possibly kicking and screaming).

It is time to build anew and outcompete.

I only hope the schools that produce poor products suffer and close swiftly to hasten the process.

And herein lies the problem with the entirety of your post. You are operating under the assumption that a new school = competition in a market where there will be winners and losers in terms of the “product” they put out. That has never been and will not suddenly become the case.

In a free market, UTRGV is a great idea. But Western didn’t advance anything. It just added 40 more pod students and caused schools in Ohio and Philly and Miami to dip even further into the bottom of the barrel for matriculants. UTRGV is great if it’s 20-something seats displaced seats elsewhere. And they were allowed to grow, forcing inferior schools to lose seats/close. But that’s not how it works.

I have nothing against UTRGV as a program. I have a problem with [insert any new pod program here] when there are already 2-3 too many. It won’t advance the profession, it can’t. Adding a school does not eliminate whatever aspect of our education, training, job market you think is holding us back.

 

[PeaJay]

And herein lies the problem with the entirety of your post. You are operating under the assumption that a new school = competition in a market where there will be winners and losers in terms of the “product” they put out. That has never been and will not suddenly become the case.

In a free market, UTRGV is a great idea. But Western didn’t advance anything. It just added 40 more pod students and caused schools in Ohio and Philly and Miami to dip even further into the bottom of the barrel for matriculants. UTRGV is great if it’s 20-something seats displaced seats elsewhere. And they were allowed to grow, forcing inferior schools to lose seats/close. But that’s not how it works.

I have nothing against UTRGV as a program. I have a problem with [insert any new pod program here] when there are already 2-3 too many. It won’t advance the profession, it can’t. Adding a school does not eliminate whatever aspect of our education, training, job market you think is holding us back.

Point taken. I do not disagree.

I guess you could say I am overly optimistic that the schools that will “dip even further into the bottom of the barrel” will meet an end similar to ITT tech/GlobeU/Trump U ect. Predatory schools eventually meet their end. It is just a question of how many people Will be hurt along the way. Hence I hope things are hastened.

 

[Weirdy]

Wow that was a long read. I do not even know what to say as it seems most providers who are for the school are unwilling to even admit its detriments. It is OK to defend - in force- your reasoning and your belief. I value that. But when deficiencies are noted per current recently graduated podiatrists, why side step the issue?

To this day I still have not heard an answer to the following baseline questions that we posted months ago when we discussed the UTRGV school.

1) Where are the new residency slots coming from?
2) What lessons have you learned from the Western school induced residency shortage and what have you done to fix it?
3) Do you realize our issue is not with your belief to push the profession forward with the school- but that intentions start to look questionable when no one on board that train is looking 2, 5, 10 years down the line of what this school will do to current supply and demand?
4) Why add a school when there is enough work simply increasing the quality of post graduate education?

No one here is hating on Texas. In fact, some of us are probably FROM Texas. Do not use that as an excuse to feign ignorance.

We are not questioning the salary of faculty at a university system. We are questioning the current salaries as experienced by recent and past graduates.

There is so much fallacy I would like to respectfully point out but will need more time for.

I have almost come to the conclusion that people on both sides of this issue have communication issues preventing us from 1) understanding what our colleagues across the aisle are trying to say due to being defensive and 2) coming to any tangible compromise for the BETTER of the ENTIRE profession that does not involve only benefiting a few in power.

This was frustrating and completely demoralizing to read and digest. Sometimes I question why I bother commenting or being involved at all.

 

[Pronation]

@Weirdy , I don't believe there is any issue with communication. These gentlemen know exactly what they are doing.

 

[Weirdy]

@Weirdy , I don't believe there is any issue with communication. These gentlemen know exactly what they are doing.

I will always 100% give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the best of them despite what I feel.

It is a necessary compromise if we are to keep dialogue open.

 

[SouthPod7]

I don’t think the quality or location of this new school is necessarily what is driving everyone’s concerns.

The debate here is that this school, even if tuition was FREE and was taught exclusively by all the top names in our profession, is simply going to be a net negative because of the job current climate.

THAT is the question I would ask our leadership. First, do they or do they not accept that there is notably a poor job market for Podiatry right now due to over-saturation?

Does the leadership acknowledge that? If not, then I would ask why not and go from there.

 

[Pronation]

I don’t think the quality or location of this new school is necessarily what is driving everyone’s concerns.

The debate here is that this school, even if tuition was FREE and was taught exclusively by all the top names in our profession, is simply going to be a net negative because of the job current climate.

THAT is the question I would ask our leadership. First, do they or do they not accept that there is notably a poor job market for Podiatry right now due to over-saturation?

Does the leadership acknowledge that? If not, then I would ask why not and go from there.

I feel that I am qualified to answer this question as I identify as a leader in total toenail replacement surgery.

Yes, we're extremely concerned about the job market. With the sharp decline in cheap associate labor, even paying for things like an AARP membership will become difficult for us. We have bills to pay - yacht, beach house, wife + girlfriend, etc etc. How are we supposed to find associates to take advantage of for 100k when MSGs, hospitals, and ortho groups are paying more than double?

It has become clear that we need to get the CPME involved, maybe even get lawyers involved, to see if we can start opening pod schools in every state.

Here is a video that summarizes how this will go down: video

 

[de Ribas]

Point taken. I do not disagree.

I guess you could say I am overly optimistic that the schools that will “dip even further into the bottom of the barrel” will meet an end similar to ITT tech/GlobeU/Trump U ect. Predatory schools eventually meet their end. It is just a question of how many people Will be hurt along the way. Hence I hope things are hastened.

As long as applicant number exceed number of available seats, all seats will be filled. Schools aren't very selective. They can't be. Priority is to fill the seats and get $$$, not to accept and train strongest pod candidates possible. If it wasn't the case about filling seats and getting money, they wouldn't increase their class sizes in the last 3-5 years. It is just beyond my comprehension why schools increased their class sizes when there are nit even 2 applicants for a seat. Our matriculant statistics are lower than for PA and majority of BSN programs. 3.2 or so is the average GPA for podiatry. Most recent applicant pool was around 750.

 

[AttackNME]

First, do they or do they not accept that there is notably a poor job market for Podiatry right now due to over-saturation?

Does the leadership acknowledge that? If not, then I would ask why not and go from there.

Yea, Dr Rogers agreed that the job market in private practice has problems

Private practice: depends if you’re the proprietor or not. If you are, then everything is up to you, but your W2 income is not representative of your entire income and is hard to judge. If you’re not the proprietor, beware. Not saying no, but this is where “podiatrist eat their young” and all the negative experiences are.

I actually tagged him and Dr Richie asking what they thought about this problem but no response yet..

So… my open ended question again to @diabeticfootdr and @Doug Richie … what are your thoughts regarding how a lot of podiatrists are eating their young in private practice?

 

[de Ribas]

Wow that was a long read. I do not even know what to say as it seems most providers who are for the school are unwilling to even admit its detriments. It is OK to defend - in force- your reasoning and your belief. I value that. But when deficiencies are noted per current recently graduated podiatrists, why side step the issue?

To this day I still have not heard an answer to the following baseline questions that we posted months ago when we discussed the UTRGV school.

1) Where are the new residency slots coming from?
2) What lessons have you learned from the Western school induced residency shortage and what have you done to fix it?
3) Do you realize our issue is not with your belief to push the profession forward with the school- but that intentions start to look questionable when no one on board that train is looking 2, 5, 10 years down the line of what this school will do to current supply and demand?
4) Why add a school when there is enough work simply increasing the quality of post graduate education?

No one here is hating on Texas. In fact, some of us are probably FROM Texas. Do not use that as an excuse to feign ignorance.

We are not questioning the salary of faculty at a university system. We are questioning the current salaries as experienced by recent and past graduates.

There is so much fallacy I would like to respectfully point out but will need more time for.

I have almost come to the conclusion that people on both sides of this issue have communication issues preventing us from 1) understanding what our colleagues across the aisle are trying to say due to being defensive and 2) coming to any tangible compromise for the BETTER of the ENTIRE profession that does not involve only benefiting a few in power.

This was frustrating and completely demoralizing to read and digest. Sometimes I question why I bother commenting or being involved at all.

That's exactly what I thought when I read that post. The points he brought forward had nothing to do with the concerns raised by people on these forums.

All that effort, money, brainstorming, whatever else it took to open this new school should have been invested in improving current education and training at already existing schools and residency programs or advance profession on a state or a federal level.

I doubt that new school will advance the profession in any significant way.

 

[deleted1053352]

Wow. I just got accepted to start next fall. This thread has been extremely informative about the pros and cons of the field. It is very noticeable that the higher-ups are having a difficult time answering the questions that recent grads are asking, especially about the ROI long-term and the terrible current job market.

It is unfortunate that politics and ego get in the way of making progress. I have a lot of respect for the field and am pursuing it as I hope to pursue surgery-based private practice one day. From this thread, I’ve learned:

1. The job market is terrible and not to start as an associate without reading into the job details first.

2. Private practice is not worth it. There is a significant risk of pursuing this especially in a pod-saturated area.

3. Leadership thinks an SDN thread is the reason why enrollment is going down? That’s ridiculous. The pods I shadowed have shared the same frustrations many of the recent grads on here have repeatedly shared.

4. If planning to pursue a surgery tailored private practice, be ready to go head-to-head against Ortho and other pods.

My plan is to pursue podiatry for my passion of helping people and for doing surgery, regardless of the politics or lower compensation, but utilize other avenues such as real estate/stocks to actually build a decent income stream.


Please feel free to correct me and offer advice, insights. I am not posting this to offend anyone or hurt any feelings. As someone pursuing the field, I think this thread brings up significant concerns that I am taking into account as I navigate the long 7 years ahead. Even if the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t as bright as it’s implied to be.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Dr. Spinner is my hero. I would say the same thing but then my account on this sensitive site would be terminated.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Just like AttckNME, dtrack, PeaJay, and Weirdy - I too am waiting for a response to my question posted on multiple threads which Dr. Rogers @diabeticfootdr is active. I await his insight on our questions which Weirdy kindly summarized above. If the mission of ABPM is to protect public safety, don’t you feel that limiting schools and closing down clearly below par programs will lead to more qualified graduates to treat patients????? Maybe I’m naive.

It’s unfortunate this has to be discussed on an online forum but where can else can this be done without the wrath of our governing boards? Imagine if this was done at ACFAS or an APMA meeting. Goodness.

I just hope they realize practicing pods take time out of their day to actually utilize this forum and give honest feedback. No one has to believe what they say.

 

[heybrother]

 

[Scrantonicity]

Not sure if you are asking a serious question, but it happens out of necessity. It is partially a podiatry thing, but really more of a solo practice thing. There is more solo practice left in podiatry than most other specialties.

If the wife is not making a good salary outside the office she can learn the job, have good attendance and be trusted with money at the practice....basically an office manager.

As the practice grows the wife can train the employees that turnover and have some flexibility to pickup the kids from school and not always be in the office, but still can be trusted with the money.

The screwing over part is just because money was very tight in the early years and if she is still working in the office is resentful she is not living the life of a doctor's wife. She needs to come on this forum and realize things are often different as the wife of a podiatrist.

If/when the office has really grown it would probably be better for the marriage and business to let go......some wives have a hard time letting go and others are happy to. The wife would probably still be on the books as an employee even if not working at all as a bookkeeper etc for tax reasons.

No, it's not necessity. She's on the books I guess (getting a salary for tax evasion purposes), but we have an actual office manager that does the actual day-to-day. The wife just comes in every now and then and makes everyone's job 1000% harder. Then she leaves for months at a time being a "doctor's wife". It's amazing to watch haha.

 

[Scrantonicity]

Wow. I just got accepted to start next fall. This thread has been extremely informative about the pros and cons of the field. It is very noticeable that the higher-ups are having a difficult time answering the questions that recent grads are asking, especially about the ROI long-term and the terrible current job market.

It is unfortunate that politics and ego get in the way of making progress. I have a lot of respect for the field and am pursuing it as I hope to pursue surgery-based private practice one day. From this thread, I’ve learned:

1. The job market is terrible and not to start as an associate without reading into the job details first.

2. Private practice is not worth it. There is a significant risk of pursuing this especially in a pod-saturated area.

3. Leadership thinks an SDN thread is the reason why enrollment is going down? That’s ridiculous. The pods I shadowed have shared the same frustrations many of the recent grads on here have repeatedly shared.

4. If planning to pursue a surgery tailored private practice, be ready to go head-to-head against Ortho and other pods.

My plan is to pursue podiatry for my passion of helping people and for doing surgery, regardless of the politics or lower compensation, but utilize other avenues such as real estate/stocks to actually build a decent income stream.


Please feel free to correct me and offer advice, insights. I am not posting this to offend anyone or hurt any feelings. As someone pursuing the field, I think this thread brings up significant concerns that I am taking into account as I navigate the long 7 years ahead. Even if the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t as bright as it’s implied to be.

Going in with both eyes wide open then. That's good! I wish you luck!

 

[air bud]

Wow. I just got accepted to start next fall. This thread has been extremely informative about the pros and cons of the field. It is very noticeable that the higher-ups are having a difficult time answering the questions that recent grads are asking, especially about the ROI long-term and the terrible current job market.

It is unfortunate that politics and ego get in the way of making progress. I have a lot of respect for the field and am pursuing it as I hope to pursue surgery-based private practice one day. From this thread, I’ve learned:

1. The job market is terrible and not to start as an associate without reading into the job details first.

2. Private practice is not worth it. There is a significant risk of pursuing this especially in a pod-saturated area.

3. Leadership thinks an SDN thread is the reason why enrollment is going down? That’s ridiculous. The pods I shadowed have shared the same frustrations many of the recent grads on here have repeatedly shared.

4. If planning to pursue a surgery tailored private practice, be ready to go head-to-head against Ortho and other pods.

My plan is to pursue podiatry for my passion of helping people and for doing surgery, regardless of the politics or lower compensation, but utilize other avenues such as real estate/stocks to actually build a decent income stream.


Please feel free to correct me and offer advice, insights. I am not posting this to offend anyone or hurt any feelings. As someone pursuing the field, I think this thread brings up significant concerns that I am taking into account as I navigate the long 7 years ahead. Even if the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t as bright as it’s implied to be.

This is not how it works, likely even more so in 7 to 8 years for you. You don't make money doing surgery in private practice. If your goal is to do surgery I promise you will be disappointed. It's ok I was there too previously. Opening your own private practice? Surgery will be the last thing on your mind for the first 3 to 4 years. You don't just open your door and in walks the patient asking for their foot fixed. You better pick the right city and hope every single PCP isn't gobbled up by whatever healthcare organization that is going to send them to their in house podiatrist.

 

[SouthPod7]

I feel that I am qualified to answer this question as I identify as a leader in total toenail replacement surgery.

Yes, we're extremely concerned about the job market. With the sharp decline in cheap associate labor, even paying for things like an AARP membership will become difficult for us. We have bills to pay - yacht, beach house, wife + girlfriend, etc etc. How are we supposed to find associates to take advantage of for 100k when MSGs, hospitals, and ortho groups are paying more than double?

It has become clear that we need to get the CPME involved, maybe even get lawyers involved, to see if we can start opening pod schools in every state.

Here is a video that summarizes how this will go down: video

Respectfully sir I feel that total toenail replacement surgery is FAR inferior to the gold standard which is toenail fusion surgery

Yea I said it come at me bro

 

[diabeticfootdr]

View attachment 360129

Dr. Spinner is my hero. I would say the same thing but then my account on this sensitive site would be terminated.

We all need heroes

 

[deleted1053352]

This is not how it works, likely even more so in 7 to 8 years for you. You don't make money doing surgery in private practice. If your goal is to do surgery I promise you will be disappointed. It's ok I was there too previously. Opening your own private practice? Surgery will be the last thing on your mind for the first 3 to 4 years. You don't just open your door and in walks the patient asking for their foot fixed. You better pick the right city and hope every single PCP isn't gobbled up by whatever healthcare organization that is going to send them to their in house podiatrist.

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

 

[air bud]

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

If you are intent on doing this....get great grades then get great training and start worrying about this in maybe 5 or 6 years. And keep COL as LOW as possible. So go to DMU.

Also don't do this.

 

[wakaflocka88]

View attachment 360076
View attachment 360077

Excellent.

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

What airbud said. But there are zero promises or guarantees even if you graduated valedictorian and did top notch training. Two of my classmates in the top 10 are still stuck in a bad PP job. Both did top notch residency programs too.

You’ll eventually come to wonder why your school, school clubs, school admin, professors, and the governing boards including CPME visiting your campus never touch any of the subjects we discuss on this forum. There’s a reason why.

If you grind it out, you can do well in this profession. It’s a gamble but up to you to create the path you want. Just please don’t post pictures of yourself on IG with a stethoscope.

 

[HaimFeldman]

I think one of the greatest possible resources for graduating podiatry residents would be a list of all the predatory, residency-mill private practices to avoid when job searching.

Former associates could list their salaries vs how much they brought into the practice, how much the practice owner spent on a new home after spending 16 hours a week in clinic while the associate had worked there for a couple years, etc.

Might be a useful tool for combatting an issue that plagues "only" 75% of podiatrists.

 

[HaimFeldman]

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

Marry into money.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

Please don’t post pictures of yourself on IG with a stethoscope.

Or poorly fixated fracture/osteotomy care

 

[deleted1138023]

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

I think you should do something else with your life

 

[icebreaker32]

Wow. I just got accepted to start next fall. This thread has been extremely informative about the pros and cons of the field. It is very noticeable that the higher-ups are having a difficult time answering the questions that recent grads are asking, especially about the ROI long-term and the terrible current job market.

It is unfortunate that politics and ego get in the way of making progress. I have a lot of respect for the field and am pursuing it as I hope to pursue surgery-based private practice one day. From this thread, I’ve learned:

1. The job market is terrible and not to start as an associate without reading into the job details first.

2. Private practice is not worth it. There is a significant risk of pursuing this especially in a pod-saturated area.

3. Leadership thinks an SDN thread is the reason why enrollment is going down? That’s ridiculous. The pods I shadowed have shared the same frustrations many of the recent grads on here have repeatedly shared.

4. If planning to pursue a surgery tailored private practice, be ready to go head-to-head against Ortho and other pods.

My plan is to pursue podiatry for my passion of helping people and for doing surgery, regardless of the politics or lower compensation, but utilize other avenues such as real estate/stocks to actually build a decent income stream.


Please feel free to correct me and offer advice, insights. I am not posting this to offend anyone or hurt any feelings. As someone pursuing the field, I think this thread brings up significant concerns that I am taking into account as I navigate the long 7 years ahead. Even if the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t as bright as it’s implied to be.

If you have looked at other professions and either did not get in or have no desire to do those professions then you are going into podiatry as well informed as one can be in the beginning…….best of luck!

If you can not marry into money, I would strongly advise being born into money or have a relative that is doctor with a lot off pull at hospital, MSG, or ortho. Although a minority of podiatry students there are a few in every class that are essentially given a good job. No different than other professions really other than that they probably had other good options also without their connections. Being born or marrying into money obviously helps you start a practice.

Even if you don’t have those type connections listed above use the ones you have. Stay in touch with local podiatrists, MSG, hospitals, ortho etc from your hometown. It does not guarantee you a job, but if you are a similar candidate now or years down the road to the others for a job they know the local candidate is much more likely to stay in the area long term.

Do the best you can in school and remain geographically open for training and the job market. That good job in North Dakota might have 15 people apply and they interview 4. The recruiter probably talks to all applicants on the phone. Apply in a large metro and you will get no call or even an email reply other than an auto generated initial email response.

Now one last time compare this to other professions….I know a soon to be graduated RN and she is confused with all the jobs opportunities she will have soon have and does not know which one to pick. Many places have openings for MD surgical specialties and can go weeks or months without a single application for them…….TRUTH. PCPs can get jobs anywhere also. It is hard to see this for all the other professions when you finish your training and it is not remotely close to this for podiatry.

I hope you get a good job where you want, but I would not go into podiatry unless you are geographically open for residency training and job. If you do not get a good job initially make sure you are getting your cases for boards. Do not buy a house or new car. Once you are board certified start applying for good jobs again, if that does not work out after 1-2 years then consider opening your own practice if you not at a PP that offers buy in at a fair price. Solo practice is hard and you will have to learn whatever it is others are doing to make their money and decide where your morals lie and pick and choose which of those things you are willing to do.

Also unless you get a good podiatry job with good benefits out of the gate it is not easy to max your 401K etc like it is for a PA with employer matching for 4-5% of it

 

[newfeet]

Good to know, thank you. Like I said, after reading these threads, I know I will be disappointed in terms of money. I am not going into it for the money, but I agree with you that the first few years will be terrible. Location is also very important.

If you were in my shoes, knowing all this but deciding to pursue it anyways, what would you do differently? I understand that there’s a lot of talk about pursuing a different career, but if still going down this route, what can I do to set myself up for a somewhat decent outcome? Advice on solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again, appreciate the insight.

So if I got back and time and tell myself everything then my younger self chooses to do podiatry anyway?!?! Then I probably wouldn't change anything in my career. I would pick the same school, same residency, same first attending job, etc. I spent hours looking at hospitals websites and md job sites looking for podiatry jobs not foot and ankle jobs. Looking at every word and making sure they really wanted a DPM.

If I were to do things completely different. I would pick a different profession. PA or CRNA or NP. Maybe anesthesiologist assistant but that has location issues worst than podiatry. I might even say FRAK it I am going to the Caribbean or Ireland or Australia or Israel for a medical degree.

If you are going podiatry now is the time to build a list of job sites, contacts at hospitals/medical groups and shadow as many podiatrists as possible.