You’ve been made, all 10 of you

[msuDPM]

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If you are intent on doing this....get great grades then get great training and start worrying about this in maybe 5 or 6 years. And keep COL as LOW as possible. So go to DMU.

Also don't do this.

Agree with airbud.

ESPECIALLY if location IS important to you and you/your family aren't independently wealthy and footing the entire bill for your education/COL.

It's one thing to say "I know I'll be disappointed by the money and that's ok", it's another to be 40 with young kids watching your student loan balance increase while making IBR payments and listening to the little old lady your boss forces you to see explain exactly which of her non-qualifying toenails are the "tough ones".

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

View attachment 360129

Dr. Spinner is my hero. I would say the same thing but then my account on this sensitive site would be terminated.

Steve Spinner is a stand up guy and the “real deal”. As is Dr. Oloff who posted on the same site yesterday.

In my opinion his comments are spot on.

 

[Sweatshirt]

After reading all this crap, I'm glad I just accepted a rural hospital job. Lucrative salary + benefits for year 1 being out. I have 5 years to get board certified. I could ONLY be board certified in total toenail replacement and they will say, okay good to go! Here's an ankle fx, you're the only doc within 50 miles

 

[icebreaker32]

After reading all this crap, I'm glad I just accepted a rural hospital job. Lucrative salary + benefits for year 1 being out. I have 5 years to get board certified. I could ONLY be board certified in total toenail replacement and they will say, okay good to go! Here's an ankle fx, you're the only doc within 50 miles

You made the right choice. You can always apply later if you want closer to your hometown or wherever else you want to live when board certified and be a competitive applicant. If you decide you are happy where you are already at even better.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

Schools aren't very selective. They can't be. Priority is to fill the seats and get $$$,

Not the case at UTRGV SOP. They had several hundred applicants (400 if memory serves) and could have filled 40 seats. They took 27 highly qualified applicants.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Not the case at UTRGV SOP. They had several hundred applicants (400 if memory serves) and could have filled 40 seats. They took 27 highly qualified applicants.

I don’t think that’s entirely true, but they only had 2 weeks to recruit a class. They 27 are highly qualified students, better GPAs and MCAT than average DO matriculants even. 26 from TX. 1 from California.

But they already have about 140 applications for next year’s class and it’s only October. I think they’ll get to 400 before next June.

It will be equivalent to 75% of the total AACPMAS applicants. Most of those won’t apply to other DPM schools, but I think some will, which will create a net positive on applications.

 

[Scrantonicity]

I don’t think that’s entirely true, but they only had 2 weeks to recruit a class. They 27 are highly qualified students, better GPAs and MCAT than average DO matriculants even. 26 from TX. 1 from California.

But they already have about 140 applications for next year’s class and it’s only October. I think they’ll get to 400 before next June.

It will be equivalent to 75% of the total AACPMAS applicants. Most of those won’t apply to other DPM schools, but I think some will, which will create a net positive on applications.

They'll get to 400 EVEN if these SDN forums aren't completely deleted??? Dang, that's amazing. Maybe internet is spotty in Texas.

 

[PeaJay]

I don’t know why everyone suggests NP/PA. I would say plumbing or electrical work probably has better opportunities. I have never met a plumber or electrician without a 60k truck, boat, and lake house.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

I don’t know why everyone suggests NP/PA. I would say plumbing or electrical work probably has better opportunities. I have never met a plumber or electrician without a 60k truck, boat, and lake house.

So true. I believe NP/PA's are pretty much stuck at their salary with very little upward salary mobility. Like a plumber or electrician we are in essence tradesmen. Pick your passion and go with it.

 

[newfeet]

I don’t know why everyone suggests NP/PA. I would say plumbing or electrical work probably has better opportunities. I have never met a plumber or electrician without a 60k truck, boat, and lake house.

Me I like wound care and I could be a in wound center all day long. My father had a contractor company I wouldn't want to be anything to do with that so plumbing/electrical work is basically off the table for me. My mom is a LPN. I worked for my dad and I was an EMT before podiatry school. I have always preferred healthcare.

 

[podwho]

So true. I believe NP/PA's are pretty much stuck at their salary with very little upward salary mobility. Like a plumber or electrician we are in essence tradesmen. Pick your passion and go with it.

As a nurse you can transition into administration and give your self a pay raise. Then start pushing paper and ordering everyone around and do committee work from home. No physical labor past your 50’s.

 

[newfeet]

As a nurse you can transition into administration and give your self a pay raise. Then start pushing paper and ordering everyone around and do committee work from home. No physical labor past your 50’s.

This! At my old job podiatrists were not allowed on committees by bylaw while the chief nursing officer and other nurse managers were. Podiatrists were also not members of the medical staff and were still listed as allied health. I was allowed to voted and attend meeting by courtesy. At my current job podiatrists can service on the medical staff. I just put my name to run for member at large on the medical stuff executive committee.

 

[PeaJay]

As a nurse you can transition into administration and give your self a pay raise. Then start pushing paper and ordering everyone around and do committee work from home. No physical labor past your 50’s.

Yeah the trade off is definitely wear and tear on your body. Most 50 yo construction workers have knees and hips of a 90 year old.

 

[Scrantonicity]

This! At my old job podiatrists were not allowed on committees by bylaw while the chief nursing officer and other nurse managers were. Podiatrists were also not members of the medical staff and were still listed as allied health. I was allowed to voted and attend meeting by courtesy. At my current job podiatrists can service on the medical staff. I just put my name to run for member at large on the medical stuff.

Nice! Yeah at the hospital I do surgeries/consults at we used to be allied health--but a few of the docs (especially ER docs and hospitalists) pushed for us to become "active staff". They rightly stated it was insulting that we were considered "allied health". It was great to feel like other specialties respect what we do. Since then, I've served on the Medical Executive Committee--those meetings are definitely not exactly fun, but it's a step up for our profession to serve in that way. If anyone can, I definitely recommend it--even for just a short while. Good to see (and be a part of) how a medical staff and a hospital make policy decisions together...

 

[tpcheung]

B .

That's what I like about you, you are an optimist. Keep it up kid.

No, they are just going to pick off 27 smart forward thinking pre pods that otherwise would have been dispersed. It just opens up 27 more spots at temple/Kent state for pre pods who have ZERO business being admitted in the first place.

You scenario works if 27 spots decreased at other schools....and I don't think that is happening...27 new spots does not mean 27 more of the "Best and brightest!!!!!!" Now get into this amazing profession.

It benefits this school. And this school only. Not the profession.

 

[newfeet]

Nice! Yeah at the hospital I do surgeries/consults at we used to be allied health--but a few of the docs (especially ER docs and hospitalists) pushed for us to become "active staff". They rightly stated it was insulting that we were considered "allied health". It was great to feel like other specialties respect what we do. Since then, I've served on the Medical Executive Committee--those meetings are definitely not exactly fun, but it's a step up for our profession to serve in that way. If anyone can, I definitely recommend it--even for just a short while. Good to see (and be a part of) how a medical staff and a hospital make policy decisions together...

Before I left they were in the process of updating the bylaws. That hospital everything was elected positions - chief of services and medical staff executives. Podiatry was under surgery and had no division chief role. Only way to know anything was to be in a committee or an elected person.

I joined the foundation board and we got info about the hospital but not everything.

I figure if this new job is my long term until I die job I should see its inner workings.

 

[Boba Foot]

I am not going into it for the money

You say this now, and I did too before I got into this business, but when you're knee deep in student loans, have no real income or savings for 7 years, and all your friends have bought houses and have families your tone will change.

As far as relying on stocks, etc for future wealth-- never rely on the stock market, economy, or intangibles to make you money. Great if it happens, but do not assume it will happen. Take it from a millennial who has already lived through two recessions in 15 years since graduating from undergrad.

 

[Hallux Flaccidus]

Yea, Dr Rogers agreed that the job market in private practice has problems



I actually tagged him and Dr Richie asking what they thought about this problem but no response yet..

So… my open ended question again to @diabeticfootdr and @Doug Richie … what are your thoughts regarding how a lot of podiatrists are eating their young in private practice?

Yes, private practice may be where podiatrists eat their young, but how pervasive is this today? How many recent grads join a private practice and are actually happy and making a decent living? Without valid data, we do not really know what is happening in private practice. Furthermore, why would any 7-year trained podiatrist work for a salary which is less than that of a PA or NP? Who is forcing them to do this?

 

[heybrother]

When you say you are going in eyes wide open, know you are going to be miserable, and are still doing it anyway - what does that say about you/us as people?

I don't ask that to be cruel because I suspect I went in still thinking "I'll be different".

-Maybe I didn't believe the low income surveys?
-Maybe I thought I just had it in me to be better than others? They didn't try/want it enough. They just had to live in NYC.

-Or does it say something about us - a degree of stubborness or just an inability to recognize that there are just better options out there. "I can't be a MD/DO therefore this is the only path left to me" - it isn't.

 

[msuDPM]

Yes, private practice may be where podiatrists eat their young, but how pervasive is this today? How many recent grads join a private practice and are actually happy and making a decent living? Without valid data, we do not really know what is happening in private practice. Furthermore, why would any 7-year trained podiatrist work for a salary which is less than that of a PA or NP? Who is forcing them to do this?

LOL. Welcome to the discussion.

 

[Hallux Flaccidus]

Wow. I just got accepted to start next fall. This thread has been extremely informative about the pros and cons of the field. It is very noticeable that the higher-ups are having a difficult time answering the questions that recent grads are asking, especially about the ROI long-term and the terrible current job market.

It is unfortunate that politics and ego get in the way of making progress. I have a lot of respect for the field and am pursuing it as I hope to pursue surgery-based private practice one day. From this thread, I’ve learned:

1. The job market is terrible and not to start as an associate without reading into the job details first.

2. Private practice is not worth it. There is a significant risk of pursuing this especially in a pod-saturated area.

3. Leadership thinks an SDN thread is the reason why enrollment is going down? That’s ridiculous. The pods I shadowed have shared the same frustrations many of the recent grads on here have repeatedly shared.

4. If planning to pursue a surgery tailored private practice, be ready to go head-to-head against Ortho and other pods.

My plan is to pursue podiatry for my passion of helping people and for doing surgery, regardless of the politics or lower compensation, but utilize other avenues such as real estate/stocks to actually build a decent income stream.


Please feel free to correct me and offer advice, insights. I am not posting this to offend anyone or hurt any feelings. As someone pursuing the field, I think this thread brings up significant concerns that I am taking into account as I navigate the long 7 years ahead. Even if the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t as bright as it’s implied to be.

My blog was the focus of this thread, so I feel a need to clarify. If you read my blog, I emphasized that the mis-guided white paper and effort of the Joint Task Force to get AMA approval backfired and cast our profession in a poor light. That occurred in 2021 and quickly became a point of discussion on SDN and that thread had the most reads of any up until now. It was the Joint Task Force and the white paper which was a disaster, in my opinion. The fact that it was discussed on SDN was not the problem. I am actually glad that the white paper was discussed on SDS as it verified what I suspected in terms of the un-attainable requirements which were set forth. Somehow this became totally distorted by others in their posts on this thread. Just like the characterizations of private practice which you have summarized here. You are relying on anecdotal reports from a few individuals who represent a modicum of the thousands of private practicing podiatrists around the country. One thing you will hopefully learn in school is that decision making should be based upon sound data, not hearsay.

 

[icebreaker32]

So it sounds like the podiatry school in Texas mainly accepts Texas residents? If so, it is understandable with tax dollars.

Residencies in Texas will not only accept applicants from the Texas school and students from the Texas school will apply to residencies in other states also, but the reality is the majority of Texas residencies will soon be filled by students from this school......unless of course there are 27 new residency slots created.

I hope there are not only a few residency slots created with the excuse that existing residencies across the country needed applicants so we decided to only create a few slots to "help" them out.

 

[111111194]

My blog was the focus of this thread, so I feel a need to clarify. If you read my blog, I emphasized that the mis-guided white paper and effort of the Joint Task Force to get AMA approval backfired and cast our profession in a poor light. That occurred in 2021 and quickly became a point of discussion on SDN and that thread had the most reads of any up until now. It was the Joint Task Force and the white paper which was a disaster, in my opinion. The fact that it was discussed on SDN was not the problem. I am actually glad that the white paper was discussed on SDS as it verified what I suspected in terms of the un-attainable requirements which were set forth. Somehow this became totally distorted by others in their posts on this thread. Just like the characterizations of private practice which you have summarized here. You are relying on anecdotal reports from a few individuals who represent a modicum of the thousands of private practicing podiatrists around the country. One thing you will hopefully learn in school is that decision making should be based upon sound data, not hearsay.

I agree the white paper/joint task force was a disaster.

I wonder if we could learn from dentistry. Their surgical residency grants an MD/DDS dual degree. An MD/DPM granting surgical residency could be a way to parity. Podiatry residencies would then have to meet ACGME standards and that would lead to high quality standardized training.

People not interested in this route should also be offered alternatives as not everyone desires to become a big important “foot and ankle surgeon.”

Not sure how feasible this is but I think it could be one way to do it.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Yes, private practice may be where podiatrists eat their young, but how pervasive is this today? How many recent grads join a private practice and are actually happy and making a decent living? Without valid data, we do not really know what is happening in private practice. Furthermore, why would any 7-year trained podiatrist work for a salary which is less than that of a PA or NP? Who is forcing them to do this?

Dr. Richie - this is why SDN exists. This exact question/questions of yours has been discussed extensively in this thread and multiple other threads to great lengths. The majority of new grads are stuck in a low paying, predatory PP job - unable to pay off loans, unable to support a family. This all circles back to why enrollment is decreasing - students are smart to evaluate the information in front of them. I know maybe your practice paid your associates fairly but I assure you that is not the case for majority of PP groups. I was offered $85k salary in a large west coast metro city 2 years ago for a PP group.

More schools - more graduates - more dilution of quality training programs - more unqualified graduates - less well paying jobs to go around, result: new grads stuck with a low paying job because they have no choice.

All goes back to why the new Texas school makes zero sense and why decreasing enrollment is happening.

If you email each of the jobs advertised on PM news, I guarantee you will be shocked at the salary offers. Or they may sugar coat and tell new grads “the sky is limit as long as you apply EpiFix to anything”

When you hired associates, what was your pay structure for them @Doug Richie

 

[icebreaker32]

Yes, private practice may be where podiatrists eat their young, but how pervasive is this today? How many recent grads join a private practice and are actually happy and making a decent living? Without valid data, we do not really know what is happening in private practice. Furthermore, why would any 7-year trained podiatrist work for a salary which is less than that of a PA or NP? Who is forcing them to do this?

No one is forcing anyone to take a job. It is not easy to start a practice right out of residency.

There are not enough employed jobs for most with Hospitals, MSG, Ortho with salaries and benefits that far exceed those for PAs in desirable locations. The amount of applicants for each one of these type jobs is usually somewhat astonishing.

Just how mediocre versus bad the typical PP jobs are is up for debate. Most are just telling the experience of themselves and their friends in regards to these jobs.

It would be great if we could get valid data for jobs in PP that new graduates typically take. Until we have that data all the anecdotal evidence strongly favors the fact it is not really any better than it used to be in PP. We need more who are happy with their PP job they got out of residency to speak up and post if that is the case. We need more of the employing doctors to post also about the salaries and benefits they offer and if they were good numbers just how many applicants they got.

Their is certainly no agenda on here to scare people away or make this profession sound worse than it is.

The ROI is something to consider and most would say podiatry comes up short right now.

 

[newfeet]

My blog was the focus of this thread, so I feel a need to clarify. If you read my blog, I emphasized that the mis-guided white paper and effort of the Joint Task Force to get AMA approval backfired and cast our profession in a poor light. That occurred in 2021 and quickly became a point of discussion on SDN and that thread had the most reads of any up until now. It was the Joint Task Force and the white paper which was a disaster, in my opinion. The fact that it was discussed on SDN was not the problem. I am actually glad that the white paper was discussed on SDS as it verified what I suspected in terms of the un-attainable requirements which were set forth. Somehow this became totally distorted by others in their posts on this thread. Just like the characterizations of private practice which you have summarized here. You are relying on anecdotal reports from a few individuals who represent a modicum of the thousands of private practicing podiatrists around the country. One thing you will hopefully learn in school is that decision making should be based upon sound data, not hearsay.

I also agree the task force was a disaster... but I don't see the problem with us talking about our experiences. I have very few opportunities to talk to podiatrists because I have always practiced in rural areas until recently and even now I am the only employed podiatrist in my system. I like reading other peoples experiences.

 

[Scrantonicity]

Yes, private practice may be where podiatrists eat their young, but how pervasive is this today? How many recent grads join a private practice and are actually happy and making a decent living? Without valid data, we do not really know what is happening in private practice. Furthermore, why would any 7-year trained podiatrist work for a salary which is less than that of a PA or NP? Who is forcing them to do this?

So we need a scientific study to prove this? We can't just look at every single Associate job offer online (PM News, LinkdIn, etc.) and find out what these people are offering? We can't go to a national meeting and discuss salaries with our peers and find out we are all getting screwed in the same manner? I guess nothing is real unless it's published in a Journal--somebody get on that. Not me, I'm too busy making my boss money to buy his next vacation home 🙂

Look, I understand most of what is discussed here is anecdotal...but even if it's the same 10-15 people posting--we each represent a pretty big cohort of our peers. Many of us keep in touch with our classmates and co residents (even 10-15 years later), so we know what's happening with them and their job situations. We have all been out for different lengths of time--some less than 5 years out, some more like 10-20 years out. And then of course we have the most experienced ones, 20+ years out that remind us of the "good old days". No one on here has any reason to over-inflate the truth or to lie for that matter. Most of us aren't necessarily "disgruntled", but we are aware of the problems in the profession. This is a great venue to air them out, even if it ends up being an echo chamber. Some great "movement" to change this forum into something different that will "attract" new applicants is only going to be a bunch of fluff that no one truly believes--so it was ridiculous for APMA or whoever to even suggest it.

 

[DYK343]

Most end up with good jobs/financially stable situation as a DPM but it can take several years of abuse.

But there is zero money to be made, with 300k debt, if you cant get a residency due to CPME allowing 1-2 new schools open and oversaturate an already narrow residency market.

Personally I would not go into podiatry right now. Too risky. I personally know a handful of people class of 2014 that had to walk away from the profession after graduating with all that debt because they couldnt get residency training. They were not bad students either. One of our top students scrambled into a terrible NYC program because there were no other options. 2014 was a disaster. Its gonna happen again. Lives financially ruined for personal gains of a few.

 

[de Ribas]

Not the case at UTRGV SOP. They had several hundred applicants (400 if memory serves) and could have filled 40 seats. They took 27 highly qualified applicants.

Every school receives at least several hundred applications. Majority of students apply to many schools or all 9.

So amount of applications they received really doesn't mean anything. It probably draws from the same 700-800 applicant pool.

 

[deleted664048]

As a recent grad I just want to voice my own opinion:

I accepted PP job which so far I enjoy, but my spouse makes 3x+ my salary (not in medicine) and we have zero debt. So my PP salary is more than enough to pay off our mortgage, car, and buy clothing. I have no real benefits through my job: I have no health insurance, no 401K, no life insurance and no disability insurance. Again, I am lucky that my spouse's job offers all that and I don't have to pay 2K per months for some crappy health insurance.

I graduated top of my class from podiatry school, and I hated most of the externships I did. Maybe it was the area, but attendings were nasty, residents would be mean and disrespectful, I heard sexual comments, etc...I end up in the decent residency, but again, RRA and ankle training was a joke. All ankle cases were with ortho who hated podiatry, so those "numbers" were not real. After 3 years of RRA residency, I don't feel confident doing any of it and honestly, I don't want to.

Also covid was a disaster. We were not considered "real doctors" until covid hits. We were first to be deployed. After covid ended, we were back to "just podiatrist". I didn't care much about the status, but it also corresponded how we were treated in the OR.

Reimbursement for bunions/hammertoes is a joke. Considering that you have to take time off you clinic day, and then see the patient after for free basically for the next 90 days. And then complications.

All my friends who finished recently got jobs, but unless you are in the hospital, I would not expect anything higher than 130K (again based on my and my friend's experience). If you in a high tax state like CA or NY, 130K is pretty low, considering that rent in those places 3K per months unless you want to live in a bad area, or in a studio. Do you want to live in a studio in your 30th?

Some private practice places would offer things like 130K, 6 days a week 8am-7 pm plus consults and 1 week vacation with no benefits. When my spouse saw those offers, he was terrified, his words were "they treat you like illegal immigrant, working in a kitchen and afraid to be deported". But unfortunately if you have 300K debt, kids and spouse who is not working/not making much, you might be forced to take that offer.

Hospital jobs exist but its very hard to get them unless you know someone, and many of these jobs are in the areas that are not desirable at all. Those jobs also require long hours, call and not much work life balance.

Also taking numerous board exam... We had to take 3 in the podiatry school and each was like 1K, then ABFAS 4 exams, then ABPM... At some point enough is enough... Seems like a money drain. And again if we would be making 500K like ortho, maybe, but requiring us to take so many exams, just unreasonable.

ABFAS gives you only 7 years to complete surgical numbers! After that, good luck. What if you have a health condition? What if you are pregnant 4 times ant taking time off? What if life happens? That's a very crazy requirement. Unless you are in the hospital job, first year you will not have many surgeries, it takes 3 months + just to get on a staff. If you have a child and take a reasonable 6 months off, you loose more time. Whoever invented 7 years rule, definitely didnt think about women and pregnancy/maternity leave. And I am not talking about a laughable passing rate for those exams. No other specialty has such a low passing rate, and we know its all on purpose to make more money.

To sum up, I personally do not think that podiatry is a good option, unless you can pay cash for your education, graduate zero debt and have job ready for you because your parent/relative owns a practice. I had a pretty good resume, publications, high GPA, recs letters, etc and it was not easy. I literally cold called places. I had several offers but none of them were amazing.

 

[podwho]

My blog was the focus of this thread, so I feel a need to clarify. If you read my blog, I emphasized that the mis-guided white paper and effort of the Joint Task Force to get AMA approval backfired and cast our profession in a poor light. That occurred in 2021 and quickly became a point of discussion on SDN and that thread had the most reads of any up until now. It was the Joint Task Force and the white paper which was a disaster, in my opinion. The fact that it was discussed on SDN was not the problem. I am actually glad that the white paper was discussed on SDS as it verified what I suspected in terms of the un-attainable requirements which were set forth. Somehow this became totally distorted by others in their posts on this thread. Just like the characterizations of private practice which you have summarized here. You are relying on anecdotal reports from a few individuals who represent a modicum of the thousands of private practicing podiatrists around the country. One thing you will hopefully learn in school is that decision making should be based upon sound data, not hearsay.

Idk man being jobless with no income and debt payments is a pretty good motivator to accept a bad job offer. World doesn’t stop for anyone. Not really sure what data your relying on that says there’s good jobs.

All hospitals / msg go for the 5+ yr experience pod, and apparently there’s tons of them. My data is the 15+ offers I received within a 100 mile radius. I know people who filled nearly every one of those jobs. What’s your data?

I have no doubt if I grind for 5-10 yrs I’ll end up making a great living, fantastic quality of life. Unfortunately I’ll have to live through it.

 

[GreenHousePub]

I don’t know why everyone suggests NP/PA. I would say plumbing or electrical work probably has better opportunities. I have never met a plumber or electrician without a 60k truck, boat, and lake house.

Yeah but I haven't met a retired one without severe physical ailments

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

Every school receives at least several hundred applications. Majority of students apply to many schools or all 9.

So amount of applications they received really doesn't mean anything. It probably draws from the same 700-800 applicant pool.

Probably true. Point is, UTRGV SOP could have taken more students. They were very selective and didn't.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

Reimbursement for bunions/hammertoes is a joke. Considering that you have to take time off you clinic day, and then see the patient after for free basically for the next 90 days. And then complications.

And again if we would be making 500K like ortho...

Do surgeries at 6:00 and 7:00 a.m. (even earlier if your hospital allows) and treat patients starting at 9:00 a.m. five days per week. That way if a case postpones or cancels it does not hurt productivity.

I know two foot and ankle ortho's. One has been in practice twenty years and might make that kind of money. The other does not.

 

[deleted664048]

Do surgeries at 6:00 and 7:00 a.m. (even earlier if your hospital allows) and treat patients starting at 9:00 a.m. five days per week. That way if a case postpones or cancels it does not hurt productivity.

I know two foot and ankle ortho's. One has been in practice twenty years and might make that kind of money. The other does not.

Usually 7 am is booked for docs who are there all the time gen surgery, ortho, etc. have blocked time. Obviously if hospital would allow, everyone would do the case at 7 am. But if 20 docs want that, a new podiatrist would be the last in line. Also, if there is an emergency, your bunion will be just cancelled.

After 20 years you better make 300K+, especially if you own your own place. However a new residency grad is about 30 years old, its a time to buy a house and start a family, and 100 K just not enough for the amount of work we put in, especially with 300K in debt. It will probably take you 20 years to just pay off the debt.

Sure some people make more than 500K, my residency director was making about 700K, but he saw 60-70 patient a day, was on call, had to do surgeries, director work, deal with all the drama, etc. He never had an opportunity to have a dinner with his family.

 

[de Ribas]

As a recent grad I just want to voice my own opinion:

I accepted PP job which so far I enjoy, but my spouse makes 3x+ my salary (not in medicine) and we have zero debt. So my PP salary is more than enough to pay off our mortgage, car, and buy clothing. I have no real benefits through my job: I have no health insurance, no 401K, no life insurance and no disability insurance. Again, I am lucky that my spouse's job offers all that and I don't have to pay 2K per months for some crappy health insurance.

I graduated top of my class from podiatry school, and I hated most of the externships I did. Maybe it was the area, but attendings were nasty, residents would be mean and disrespectful, I heard sexual comments, etc...I end up in the decent residency, but again, RRA and ankle training was a joke. All ankle cases were with ortho who hated podiatry, so those "numbers" were not real. After 3 years of RRA residency, I don't feel confident doing any of it and honestly, I don't want to.

Also covid was a disaster. We were not considered "real doctors" until covid hits. We were first to be deployed. After covid ended, we were back to "just podiatrist". I didn't care much about the status, but it also corresponded how we were treated in the OR.

Reimbursement for bunions/hammertoes is a joke. Considering that you have to take time off you clinic day, and then see the patient after for free basically for the next 90 days. And then complications.

All my friends who finished recently got jobs, but unless you are in the hospital, I would not expect anything higher than 130K (again based on my and my friend's experience). If you in a high tax state like CA or NY, 130K is pretty low, considering that rent in those places 3K per months unless you want to live in a bad area, or in a studio. Do you want to live in a studio in your 30th?

Some private practice places would offer things like 130K, 6 days a week 8am-7 pm plus consults and 1 week vacation with no benefits. When my spouse saw those offers, he was terrified, his words were "they treat you like illegal immigrant, working in a kitchen and afraid to be deported". But unfortunately if you have 300K debt, kids and spouse who is not working/not making much, you might be forced to take that offer.

Hospital jobs exist but its very hard to get them unless you know someone, and many of these jobs are in the areas that are not desirable at all. Those jobs also require long hours, call and not much work life balance.

Also taking numerous board exam... We had to take 3 in the podiatry school and each was like 1K, then ABFAS 4 exams, then ABPM... At some point enough is enough... Seems like a money drain. And again if we would be making 500K like ortho, maybe, but requiring us to take so many exams, just unreasonable.

ABFAS gives you only 7 years to complete surgical numbers! After that, good luck. What if you have a health condition? What if you are pregnant 4 times ant taking time off? What if life happens? That's a very crazy requirement. Unless you are in the hospital job, first year you will not have many surgeries, it takes 3 months + just to get on a staff. If you have a child and take a reasonable 6 months off, you loose more time. Whoever invented 7 years rule, definitely didnt think about women and pregnancy/maternity leave. And I am not talking about a laughable passing rate for those exams. No other specialty has such a low passing rate, and we know its all on purpose to make more money.

To sum up, I personally do not think that podiatry is a good option, unless you can pay cash for your education, graduate zero debt and have job ready for you because your parent/relative owns a practice. I had a pretty good resume, publications, high GPA, recs letters, etc and it was not easy. I literally cold called places. I had several offers but none of them were amazing.

Podiatry. I have visited "strong" RRA programs and I was shocked how low their RRA case numbers were. Yes, they talked about RRA in their academics and they are "experts" during acedimix sessions but rarely they actually do the procedures they discuss. If residents get to see 1-2 calc fractures, talar fractures per year and only one resident out of 9-12 gets to do it how prepared residents will be to do those cases once they are out. If big name programs lack good RRA exposure then what about other programs.

 

[SouthPod7]

Probably true. Point is, UTRGV SOP could have taken more students. They were very selective and didn't.

But the problem is even 1 student is too many. Saying they were selective and did less damage than they could have is like a battered housewife argument.

They shouldn't have done ANY damage to begin with.

 

[deleted664048]

Podiatry. I have visited "strong" RRA programs and I was shocked how low their RRA case numbers were. Yes, they talked about RRA in their academics and they are "experts" during acedimix sessions but rarely they actually do the procedures they discuss. If residents get to see 1-2 calc fractures, talar fractures per year and only one resident out of 9-12 gets to do it how prepared residents will be to do those cases once they are out. If big name programs lack good RRA exposure then what about other programs.

Thats exactly what I have experienced. My program supposed to be a decent RRA in the area with a very strong academics. All our journal club was about TAR, and ankle fusion, etc. But when we scrubbed TAR or ankle fusion, it was with ortho doc and ortho resident. Ortho residents even those who are going to spine, or peds, still wanted to do the case, so we just were there to retract and do the dirty work.
Talar/Calc fractures with podiatrists were rare, and we would triple scrub and not do much. At some point no one even wanted to scrub those cases, because we knew that we will be there for 6 hours retracting. And agin, as a student visiting, and listening to journal club, I was sure residents do all that. There were too many students and we didnt get to see much during externship, but as a student, I was naive and had no clue that "be done with numbers early" means nothing.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

Usually 7 am is booked for docs who are there all the time gen surgery, ortho, etc. have blocked time. Obviously if hospital would allow, everyone would do the case at 7 am. But if 20 docs want that, a new podiatrist would be the last in line. Also, if there is an emergency, your bunion will be just cancelled.

Your description of the hospital or surgical center where you work is an invitation to go to a center that can accommodate your schedule. Cancelling your case costs you AND your patient money. That's unacceptable. I was an investor in a surgical center for many years that started to push back on implant costs. I wanted to do what was best for my patients and sold my interest leaving for a hospital that accommodated my schedule and gave me zero pushback on implant costs.

Yes, $300,000 could very take 30 years. I paid off $130,000 in seven.

 

[deleted664048]

Podiatry. I have visited "strong" RRA programs and I was shocked how low their RRA case numbers were. Yes, they talked about RRA in their academics and they are "experts" during acedimix sessions but rarely they actually do the procedures they discuss. If residents get to see 1-2 calc fractures, talar fractures per year and only one resident out of 9-12 gets to do it how prepared residents will be to do those cases once they are out. If big name programs lack good RRA exposure then what about other programs.

And of course there are always some residents who brag about doing everything "skin to skin" and then when you actually see them in the case, they just retracting. Not sure why people did that. And it was in every program: As a student I saw them retracting only, then they would come out and tell their co-residents "oh, he/she let me do everything"... and in my mind I was like "why would you say that?"

 

[Pronation]

Hospital jobs exist but its very hard to get them unless you know someone, and many of these jobs are in the areas that are not desirable at all. Those jobs also require long hours, call and not much work life balance.

I just wanted to clarify the misconception that hospital employed involves long hours, excessive call, and lack of work life balance. This is not the usual case, and the ones that do have the above scenario are clearing 350-400k.

 

[Pronation]

I know two foot and ankle ortho's. One has been in practice twenty years and might make that kind of money. The other does not.

I also know a few foot and ankle orthos that casually clear 8000 RVU per year. At $70/RVU, well, none of them are making less than 500k. Not even close.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

But the problem is even 1 student is too many. Saying they were selective and did less damage than they could have is like a battered housewife argument.

They shouldn't have done ANY damage to begin with.

Raising the standard for our profession from the ground up is not damage. We'll see what happens wrt residency placement in four years. The horse is out of the barn.

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

I also know a few foot and ankle orthos that casually clear 8000 RVU per year. At $70/RVU, well, none of them are making less than 500k. Not even close.

I know podiatrists in the same revenue category. It's inspiring!

 

[GreenHousePub]

Raising the standard for our profession from the ground up is not damage. We'll see what happens wrt residency placement in four years. The horse is out of the barn.

The toenails are out of the socks

 

[Foot&AnkleSurgeon]

The toenails are out of the socks

That's good! Going to use that.

 

[PTPuser]

Podiatry. I have visited "strong" RRA programs and I was shocked how low their RRA case numbers were. Yes, they talked about RRA in their academics and they are "experts" during acedimix sessions but rarely they actually do the procedures they discuss. If residents get to see 1-2 calc fractures, talar fractures per year and only one resident out of 9-12 gets to do it how prepared residents will be to do those cases once they are out. If big name programs lack good RRA exposure then what about other programs.

Ugh....so true!!! Literally going through this process right now and I have toxic students / residents etc saying to me, "Don't worry about residency programs and their numbers! If the program is running, then you'll be fine!"
And this is the same group of people who can't read a simple x-ray. Which are the products of the same attendings at our school who can't see / manage anything above distrophic nails and can't differentiate dry skin / tinea pedis.

 

[deleted664048]

I just wanted to clarify the misconception that hospital employed involves long hours, excessive call, and lack of work life balance. This is not the usual case, and the ones that do have the above scenario are clearing 350-400k.

I have friends who work in the hospital and no, they do not make 350-400K and yes, they work until 9 pm and on call half of the months. Is it anecdotal? Yes, but, so is what you are saying. I am glad you had different experience, but its not experience of my friends.

 

[deleted664048]

I also know a few foot and ankle orthos that casually clear 8000 RVU per year. At $70/RVU, well, none of them are making less than 500k. Not even close.

Of course there are podiatrists, especially once who own a private practice and have been working for a long time make that much. I have no doubt about that. Everything is possible.

Private practice ownership also is a stressful job, you need to deal with office drama/people leaving/repair, etc. Someone can fall on your door steps and sue you. So PP ownership is not all flowers.

But same as with real estate agents, some make millions but majority do not. But everyone who becomes a real estate agent thinks they will make millions year one. Majority never do.

If you are sure you will be a star in your school/ residency/ fellowship or that you will work you butt off to make as much as possible, you will have the opportunity.

Again, I am not saying that you will make 100K for the rest of your life, but for many people waiting 10-15 years is not an options, especially if you are smart and dedicated, you could have made same money in any other field without 4 years of pod school and 3 years residency.

I think podiatry could be a fulfilling field, but its not an easy field at all. Many people believe that it is an "easy way to become a surgeon", or "easy way to become a doctor" since current pod schools accept anyone with a half brain, so they go to pod school and then disappointed that they have to work as hard as MD, or harder and not get the same respect or compensations.

 

[Hallux Flaccidus]

Idk man being jobless with no income and debt payments is a pretty good motivator to accept a bad job offer. World doesn’t stop for anyone. Not really sure what data your relying on that says there’s good jobs.

All hospitals / msg go for the 5+ yr experience pod, and apparently there’s tons of them. My data is the 15+ offers I received within a 100 mile radius. I know people who filled nearly every one of those jobs. What’s your data?

I have no doubt if I grind for 5-10 yrs I’ll end up making a great living, fantastic quality of life. Unfortunately I’ll have to live through it.

I am baffled by the continued mis-representation and distortion of what I write which gets posted and then challenged. I never said there were good jobs ( although I think there are) and never said I had data. My point is that we do NOT have good data on the job opportunities and starting salaries available to new grads from residency training, nor do we have reliable data reflecting the true income of practicing podiatrists who are 5, 10, 15 and 20 years out. No, this is not realm of peer reviewed research for a medical journal but could be carried out by a qualified entity and funded by APMA and ACFAS. Until this is done, much of what we read in these posts regarding income potential for podiatrists must be recognized as anecdotal evidence at best.