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2012 APPIC Internship Application Thread

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by PerhapsMaybeOk, 07.18.11.

  1. paramour

    paramour

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Congrats to all the SDN folks who matched!!!

    To those who did not, GOOD LUCK as you proceed with whatever path you choose moving forward for the next upcoming round(s). :luck:

    Our department was like a frakkin' ghost town yesterday apparently. No one spoke of match unless it was in hushed whispers, so there were no happy thoughts for those few who did match. (Hell, we were off-campus at an event, and people still spoke in low voices.) 50% matched in our uni-PhD program. Not the expected outcome since we had a 100% match rate the past few years. And not particularly happy thoughts since our APA accreditation is up for review this year. :scared:

    In the meantime, the remaining folks aren't very optimistic (and not being helped by our department) as there are "very few APA-accredited sites remaining that are up to our training expectations." We're required to completed an APA-accredited site, so no APA, no match. How likely is that . . . ?

    And then I found it somewhat amusing (not really), when I hear some of our junior students in the program talking about the whole ordeal.

    "So what, it's just another year that they have to wait around."

    "What's the likelihood that they wouldn't match two years in a row? It just doesn't happen . . . "

    Are these people really that naive? Or do they intentionally have their heads stuck in the proverbial hole in the ground? :rolleyes:

    I don't think any of them have yet to think about how those 50% sticking around for another year will affect our (already crappy) assistantship/practicum situation. Knowing our department, they will likely want to "do what they can" to help those students be even more competitive next year by giving away the few clinical spots we have to those applicants--even though they've already had more than their fair share of clinical opportunities. This will then have the effect of preventing some students who are attempting to apply for internship for the first time and some students who have yet to have their first practicum opportunities (who should be in line for one) the possibility of having any practicum next year. These students are then delayed in their training. The whole situation sucks a big one, and I only foresee it getting worse. :thumbdown:
  2. psybee

    psybee Psychology Grad Student!

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    "We're currently churning out ~1k more individuals per year than we can train via our internship infrastructure. And, according to some TDs, the overall quality of many applicants has been lowering over the past few years (e.g., fewer assessment and therapy hours, greater need for supervision, less ability to "hit the ground running" due to inadequate preparation by their doctoral programs). We need to stop training so many people, raise accreditation standards, better develop a standard model of doctoral training, streamline the accreditation process, and lobby better for scope of practice protection."



    :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
  3. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Thanks. I prefer to think of myself as an oppositional cookie due to my environment. (I'm so willing to take up forum space to make bad/dumb jokes and lament my current difficulties. I need to cut down on this potentially maladaptive coping strategy.)

    Is there a higher power in particular that you're thinking of? The University wouldn't do anything because the PsyD program makes them a ton of money and brings in students from all over the place (typical cohort size is 20-25, I think, with annual tuition above $20k, non-coursework tuition greater than 3500, and an internship tuition - you pay the school when you go on internship - of more than $750).

    Something that hits me as very sad is that I'm certain the director of the program feels that things are not right with it but this person has no control over the faculty's decisions or the program's policies. (A psychologist in a figurehead role. Who knew?) And this person stays with the job because it pays well and gives this person, maybe, the illusion of control or the potential to be helpful to students and the field.

    So APA might be the next step up but they were at the school in the past couple of years and I don't think any of the huge issues were revealed (I was far from campus so couldn't go to talk to the reps and the early-on-in-training students aren't aware of the issues yet... they come up about halfway through the 2nd year but aren't obvious until coursework is almost done... I should've dropped out my first semester when I became dissatisfied). Other students have made formal complaints to the APA. These students were sort of blacklisted in the program as troublemakers and told that they should have gone through the proper channels. I really think that people stay in the program after seeing the problems because they've already invested so much money in the degree. :cry:

    I wish a billionaire would offer to reimburse tuition for clinical psych students who choose to discontinue their training and "help people" in another way. Life lessons, oh well.

    I'm happy my apps are done for good, though. :hardy:
  4. SingingCow

    SingingCow

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    People without family (human or pets) responsibilities who come from a fully-funded research-oriented doctoral program, and have been living frugally and saving up for several years. It is not ideal, but doable.
  5. psybee

    psybee Psychology Grad Student!

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    Congrats on finishing your apps! I hope Phase II works out for you!!

    I was thinking just what you said, School Directors or APA. I have honestly never really though about what APA can do to help students in this situation and what they actually so, if APA is can can be and should be a resource for students at APA accredited programs who are having significant training issues that are not being addressed by their own admin.

    My 1st reaction of course is "Yes, APA should do this!" but usually when something seems that clear to me there a whole argument or area that I'm not seeing that tells a story about why so and such isn't the standard...
  6. LaurenPsyd

    LaurenPsyd

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    Agreed!!
  7. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Thanks! :hardy:

    In case anyone was wondering how the application process works in Phase II, I got a PMed question from someone applying in Phase II:
    So the bulk of my answer was:
  8. paramour

    paramour

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    Wait ...

    So you don't match, and then you have to pay for the privilege of going through Phase II as well?! Did I read that right?! Yikes!
  9. docma

    docma

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    I am glad to see this aspect of the problem enter into the discussion. The costs and dilemmas noted above are even more daunting for programs smaller in size than VA/MedCenter and these smaller community based programs serve important populations with way less funding or external supports. Having an internship is almost always an expense, not a profit for organizations. They benefit in other ways (morale of staff who like to train, extension of services they could not provide otherwise, workforce development over time)---but they do not do it for the money.
  10. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Nope, it's just the same "Pay Now" button.

    If you submitted any applications previously, you don't have to pay anything for Phase II applications. If you didn't submit any previous applications, you have to pay $35 (I think) for the first one.
  11. paramour

    paramour

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    Oooh, thanks for clarifying. I didn't think folks were paying anything last year for Phase II, so I thought maybe they changed things. I was going to say talk about adding insult to injury at this time. Jeeze. :rolleyes:
  12. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Haha, yeah, it does seem like something APPIC would do... and then claim applicants requested it.:rolleyes:

    (I am now officially jaded. *grumble grumble grumble* At least I am successful in all other areas of my life :D. And I have a cool party hat. :hardy:)
  13. PavlovWolf

    PavlovWolf

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    Try not to despair, Phase IIers...although I can empathize and understand how insanely frustrating this process is.

    I ended up matching my 2nd year going through the match - and my friend found something through Phase II that year. The students from my program who didn't match on their 2nd try ended up finding internships through Phase II. Keep the faith. And keep us posted. I really do think everything happens for a reason, even though sometimes the process of getting to the positive reason is agonizing at times...
  14. Member19203

    Member19203

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    ABSOLUTELY. Why hasn't anyone plopped themselves down in front of a competent lawyer and filed a lawsuit about this issue yet? I like the petition going around, but it seems like the courts might be the only way to get any of this problem's stakeholders to move beyond "hosting meetings." Something much, much more drastic will have to happen in order to produce change, I think.

    I guess some folks started to talk about this issue a few posts ago and it sounds like somebody more knowledgeable than I am thinks that there's probably no room to sue the school...but what about APA? Since they're responsible for accreditation and the internship experience is included in their recommendations for doctoral training in psychology, shouldn't they be responsible for taking steps to make sure that people actually can achieve the internship experience? I mean, in my mind, at the very least they've mismanaged the situation, and it's definitely resulted in real damages (lost income, repeated internship application fees/travel costs, continued tuition) to real people.
    Last edited: 02.25.12
  15. PurplePants80

    PurplePants80

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    Anyone know if CC's are just as picky about CC experience in Phase 2? I really like UNC's focus on multi-culturalism and I have significant experience there, but do not have any CC experience.
  16. 3rdWave

    3rdWave Licensed Psychologist

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    My DCT predicts that soon someone will successfully sue a graduate psychology program for not issuing the PhD diploma- when they have completed all university based portions of the degree requirements, and the university is unable to provide access to an internship.
    Last edited: 02.25.12
  17. jolio

    jolio

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    just thought I'd chime in with my own results. I was one of the unmatched last year (in both phases). This year, I was very lucky and matched to my top choice. And just to give hope to some of you who haven't matched yet, last year, I applied to a program in phase I and ranked them as my top choice, only to see open spots there in phase II. I applied for a spot in phase II, but didn't get an interview. I applied there this year having addressed the weakness in my application. They didn't even interview me. Nor did another site that I know ranked me last year and that interviewed 10 of their 11 applicants and that is located in a STRIP MALL (and not even a good one). Seriously. Nonetheless, I matched at a very competitive program that is exponentially stronger than either of those this year, and one that's close to a dunkin donuts, so take that, crappy strip mall place. My point here is that it's a confusing process where logic is not the strongest element at work. Just because you weren't given the time of day by some programs doesn't mean you can't go on to match at an even better program. And just do whatever you can to avoid taking it personally.
    Last edited: 02.25.12
  18. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    :laugh:
  19. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    It doesn't cost anything to apply other than the time it takes to prepare a cover letter, so I'd apply for it if I weren't geographically limited. The pickiness will probably depend on who else applies.
  20. RGirl

    RGirl

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    :thumbup:
    Awesome post. It puts this ridiculous process in perspective.
    And donuts dominate strip malls any day.
  21. psychgeek

    psychgeek Senior Member

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    If compentency were a legal obligation, the APA would have been sued out of existance a long time ago.

    I don't know that the courts can do much here, but I think students could help themselves. I wonder, how many of you who have been damaged by the APA's refusal to address the internship imbalance are still members of the APA? Maybe they would care more about students' plight if their failure to do so started costing them money. Withholding support, campaigning for other psychologists to withhold support, and picketing the APA convention might get their attention. Fifteen-hundred angry students could wield a lot of power if organized.
  22. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    (X) Strongly Agree.

    We'll make the third thing happen. Join the FB group.

    Students are about 1/3 of APA members (which says a lot about their retention, which says a lot about how professionals see the organization). That is a lot of power to wield.
  23. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    (That membership also says a lot about the cost of liability insurance when your grad program won't cover it but requires it of students who aren't even doing clinical work, as the APA and the trust offer low cost liability insurance... that is definitely the only reason I am a member.)
  24. Rivi

    Rivi

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    Just curious, but what do you make of this? Do you think your enthusiasm towards your top choice was apparent to the interviewers and lead to your acceptance? Or is it just an indication that the internship match is a crapshoot? A lot of people have said that they were rejected by their "safety" internship sites and accepted by the more competitive ones.
  25. Sigmund123

    Sigmund123

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    Anyone know why allendale has so many available spots for phase II? (6)
  26. psyunknown

    psyunknown

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    As someone training in Chicago, I have heard alot of negative talk about Allendale to be honest. If you want more information pm me and I can say more of what I've heard from my colleagues.
  27. 4410

    4410

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    My guess is that they may have opted out of phase I for some reason or another, such as funding concerns. They are going to particpate in phase II now that funding is approved. To some respect, the internship sites have all of the advantages due to the shortage of sites and the surplus of applicants. Some of the top applicants do not match in phase I, so sites are looking for these applicants in phase II. I know one site had 50 or more in their rankings of very highly qualified applicants and 15 of the applicants to their site did not match in phase I. Some students from very reputable programs only apply to highly competitive internships so it is obvious that some will not match in phase I but will find a good site in phase II.

    I used to live around 30 miles from the Allendale facility near Gurnee, Illinois around six years ago. At that time they were a very high quality program and we had some of their interns doing some rotations in the school district I worked it. They did have a psychodynamic focus but Illinois has many psychologist working from a psychodynamic focus. Back then, most of their interns were from PsyD programs in Illinois or the Chicago area and they commuted to Lake Villa everyday or took the train from Chicago. It is located out in the country north of Chicago in a rural area. This could be a reason they still have openings since there are so many sites located in Chicago. Some of the students from Wisconsin School of Professional Psychology were doing their internships at Allendale Association Bradley Center when I was living in Gurnee, Illinois.

    Looking at the sites still available in Phase II, nine of the sites were ones that I applied to. I was not selected to interviews at these nine sites and some of them only had two slots and they still have two slots in phase II so they did not have any students match in the ranking with their sites. Some of them had four slots and three slots and they still have this many slots in phase II. I wonder if it is similar situation in that they decided to opt out of phase I for some reason.

    I think some sites deliberately wait until Phase II as normally you have a smaller pool of applicants and you have more time to get things worked out such as funding. The Allendale Association contracts with some school districts and their interns do rotations with the school districts, so since they are tied into Department of Education funding they may not know exactly how many slots they will have until March or April.
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  28. s00nerb0y

    s00nerb0y

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    Unfortunately, I don't think them not filling their spots was an intentional decision on their part. They have a poor reputation among the Chicago area schools. My program pulled several students mid-year from their practicums there due to difficulties with staff and failing to uphold training contracts, and I've heard similar stories from students at other programs.
  29. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I have seen them in Clearinghouse/Phase II a number times over the past 4 years, but it isn't completely unheard of given that they work with a tough population and location-wise they are farther out of the metro area than other sites. They are APA-acred. (last I heard), so I'm sure they will get a bunch of applicants.
  30. CSOPP

    CSOPP

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    I am also from the Chicago area and heard that interns have had poor training experiences there. I actually know someone who interviewed there and ranked them as her #1 choice, despite some red flags that came up during the interview. She is a great candidate, has worked with that population for years, and is psychodynamic. She was extremely confused as to why they did not even rank her. After discussing her interview process, we decided that maybe it was because she had asked them about there APA-accred, which is currently in the process of being "questioned" and may be pulled. Although this is a legitimate concern, it would not surprise me if the site took offense to this question and took her off their rank list (bruised ego, anyone?).
  31. mouse101

    mouse101

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    Can someone please clarify whether we are supposed to submit supplemental materials (undergrad transcripts, test reports, etc.) with applications for phase II?
  32. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Clarification: No. From http://appic.org/Match/FAQs/Applicants/Phase-II :

  33. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    For anyone who didn't match this year and is reading this, maybe with some shame or embarrassment, please realize that there are probably other people from your program who either are going through what you are now or who went through it in the past few years. Chances are good that they would like to talk to someone in your position now, if only to provide support to you in this difficult time. So if you can't connect with someone from sdn, ask around your program to see if there's anyone who has been in your situation. Obviously, some programs and students won't want to share this info but, if you can get it, why not talk to someone who has been there?

    Also, not matching is probably not your fault. It's often the luck of the draw. Good luck in Phase II. :luck:
  34. 4410

    4410

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    I think it will be very hard to match in phase II this year due to the amount of unmatched applicants. It would be nice if the Match statistics were broken down into how many APA accredited program applicants did not match. My guess is that many who did not match are from non APA accredited programs.
  35. 4410

    4410

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    The program that I am in does not have any communication about who matched and who did not match at this point in time. Once everything is completed they send out an email of the students going on internship and where they are going on internship. Most likely next week I will find out as most of us have an advanced practicum class we attend so probably there will be some discussion about internship.

    This whole process bring up emotions and many are sensitive about those who did not match, so if the program were to make an official announcement of students who matched we would all then know who did not match.
  36. 4410

    4410

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    The program that I am in does not have any communication about who matched and who did not match at this point in time. Once everything is completed they send out an email of the students going on internship and where they are going on internship. Most likely next week, I will find out as most of us have an advanced practicum class we attend so probably there will be some discussion about internship.

    This whole process bring up emotions and many are sensitive about those who did not match, so if they program were to make an official announcement of students who matched we would all then know who did not match.

    My undergraduate program sent out an email to all of the psychology alumni on their list and congratulated all of the students who matched. All seven students were matched and all of them matched to APA accredited internships. All of the internships were in medical centers settings such as the VA and major medical centers.
  37. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Yes, that is a continuing problem. The number of applicants is vastly larger than the number of positions. It is a really bad situation.

    Seems like most people on here that didn't match are from an APA accredited program. That is not just my confirmation bias at work.

    Last year's stats are here: http://appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part2.aspx

    Since there are so many more applicants from APA accredited programs than from non-accredited programs, there are a lot more applicants from APA accredited programs who don't match. Last year, roughly 4 times as many applicants from APA accredited programs didn't match as there were applicants from unaccredited programs participating in the match based on stats from that link above.

    Not matching is generally not reflective of a particular applicant's attributes (where they're from or not). It typically comes down to numbers, though it seems people are reluctant to believe that.

    If your program doesn't tell you who matched and who didn't and you're comfortable talking to people about not matching, why not send an email to your program or your fellow applicants? Reach out. If they're not ready, they don't have to reach back but I'm sure it's nice to know someone (identifiable) is out there who understands the situation you're in.
  38. eudaimonPsyD

    eudaimonPsyD Clinical PsyD Student

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    I guess this information isn't technically confidential or anything, but seems like that would raise some FERPA flags. But each school to its own.

    Duck you hit the nail on the head. It is so hard to not totally throw the blame onto yourself, and I waiver constantly between blaming one of three directions (myself, my school's poor reputation/status, and the broken process), feeling crappola regardless. Although I am sure there have been moments over the last couple of days that you have been feeling pretty low too, you have brought a tough spirit to this thread and I appreciate that. It is hard for me to stay strong, and I have felt really pulled back from some of my closer cohort-mates because they matched and I did not. Thank you for sharing your story, it helps me maintain my own perspective and drive to continue on. I truly hope this process will be settled for you, in the best direction it can. :)


    For those working on Phase II, in what ways are you adjusting your cover letters (besides tailoring them to the site)? Do you feel like you have to add anything extra because it is the second round? I have this feeling like I have to justify something, but I know this is probably fueled by my own shame and desperation.
  39. DrivenDoctoress

    DrivenDoctoress

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    My mind is truly blown by this whole process. I have to finally admit, as someone mentioned above, that logic is not the primary operating factor in this whole endeavor. I'm from a top-notch, well funded APA accredited PhD program with a great reputation... and we had dismal numbers compared to our history. We have always had match rate of 85-100%... this year, approximately 60%. And as is the case for many individuals, our unmatched applicants are really stellar, high-quality applicants with good clinical and research experience. It's just heartbreaking. Everyone is looking around at everyone else, confused and outraged.

    DuckDuckGoose-- I am really hoping that things work out for you in Phase II. I know you're very ready to walk away if not, and it's not a drop less than your blasted program deserves! But, will you petition/request that they allow you to pursue a non-accred. internship elsewhere before you quit? Perhaps this year, if you let them know that you staying in the program is contingent upon securing an internship NOW, they will let you?

    If not, I really hope you pursue some sort of action against them, or give them some seriously bad press as far and wide as you can. It's so deeply wrong to victimize ones students who have poured heart, soul, time, energy, and money into their training, AND to do so in a discriminant fashion, MULTIPLE years in a row. Sigh. I know this doesn't help you to know that there are strangers out there on the interweb who are profoundly outraged on your behalf, but there are. ;-)
  40. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

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    Something I've been wondering is... if the problem is too many applicants, especially due to the high number of FSPS students applying, compared to limited slots, which makes sense, shouldn't it not matter because supposedly APA sites don't usually take FSPS students anyway? Why is this affecting funded, university-based PhD/PsyD students with small cohort sizes?
  41. 4410

    4410

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    Up until 2009 in the Student Lounge, a list of all of the internship applicants was posted with who was going to internship and where they were going. For me it was somewhat nice to see that people were actually finishing up the program and going to internship. You are probably right, confidentiality laws may come into play and now these list are no longer published or made a public record. They also used to have the names of prior class interns and where they did their internships on the program website but this list is no long published. I believe in 2009 some of the rules or laws reflected on posting on the Internet where changed and most likely the school attorney or legal adviser has indicated to not post this information any longer.
  42. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

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    My program sends out an email of who matched and to where. They don't say anything about the people who don't match, but usually we know who all were applying this year.
  43. PurplePants80

    PurplePants80

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    Yes, I agree. I have received a lot of support and feedback these last few days. Everyone is shocked and was able to relate a story of people in high quality programs who also did not match THIS YEAR.

    I'm glad for the feedback and glad for the support. I think I am substantially improving my application so far from that feedback for Phase 2, and next year if necessary. Completely revamping my one of my essays, my LOR's are getting updated too (personalizing them for each site), and highlighting different things in my CV depending on the site.
  44. Sigmund123

    Sigmund123

    Joined:
    11.30.11
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    Psychology Student
    Thank you all for the info!
  45. psyman

    psyman

    Joined:
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    I was wondering this, too.

    Duck, after reading your story, if I were you I'd lawyer up. I cannot imagine how they can justify allowing others to rank APPIC only sites, but not you. I would have been livid when they told me that. You didn't go to school for this long to quit because of this BS.
  46. blindchaos

    blindchaos

    Joined:
    03.13.07
    Messages:
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    SDN 5+ Year Member
    They had 6 spots available in Phase II last year as well and even after Phase II was done, they still had 3 openings left (and on the postdoc listserv, I've gotten a few e-mails from them this school year with immediate openings for postdocs). I talked w/a friend of mine who is in a PsyD program in Chicago and he had heard pretty negative things about them as well through classmates who interviewed there. Apparently at one point, interns were telling applicants *on interview day* not to rank the site :sendoff: (<--- not the most relevant smiley but it sort of works and it made me smile :p )
  47. Ollie123

    Ollie123

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    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Duck - did they offer a rationale why? I'm just curious, since that seems very odd. Many programs allow you to request "exemptions" to a policy of APA-only, but I've never heard of a situation like yours where it sounds like the standard is to allow APPIC and you are the exception.
  48. apply4psych

    apply4psych

    Joined:
    11.21.11
    Messages:
    7
    Are there statistics posted re: the number of interviews as compared to match rate for this past phase?
  49. Member6523

    Member6523

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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I have a hypothesis, as an applicant who primarily applied to research heavy internships. I was fortunate to match, but got one of my later ranks (past #10). I am competitive and received many interviews. I noticed at my interviews that the same circle of applicants were going around. Even those who I didn't see at every interview usually mentioned interviewing at many sites I was at. Some of the sites only take 1-2 applicants, so when you have a pool of 40+ applicants interviewing to a few top research spots, some are bound to get squeezed out. I for one feel very lucky to have matched at all, at an excellent research site, as the reality of matching so low on my list shook me a bit. Not sure if this is 100% the case, but definitely my personal experience.
  50. psyman

    psyman

    Joined:
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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Sorry, but I don't understand how this relates to Cara's question/comment. I don't think students from FSPS are getting many APA internships and are not competing with students from funded APA programs (I haven't seen the data, this is my assumption). I'm from an APA uni-PsyD and many of our students do not get APA internships.

    I think some people don't apply to enough programs for internship and therefore may not match for this reason, despite being a great candidate.

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