2020-2021 NYU

[stm824]

Did he say what the expected WL movement is this year at the beginning of the meeting? I missed it.

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[ohhhboy]

Info from the webinar in case people couldn't make it:

-There are ~240 on the WL currently, ~60 total will be admitted from the WL
-First wave of new acceptances (35+) will begin to go out on Monday May 3rd. Smaller waves of acceptances will go out after that.
-Rejections will also begin to go out by the end of May
-Dean Rivera will be emailing instead of calling with acceptances from here on out
-Commit to enroll date for 4 yr MD program is July 19th
-If you know for a fact that NYU is where you want to go, but a school you were accepted to had an early commit to enroll date, send a letter of intent so they know you would rather go to NYU.
-Upload all letters of interest/intent through the portal

He also said Knightdoc was right on the money with their yield estimate lmao

 

[doctorBsquared]

I totally agree, but just wait and see what happens as 4/30 approaches. I've watched it the past few cycles. People talk a good game, and stars with multiple acceptances will try to get "better" schools, with even more impressive match lists, to match NYU's offer. And then they'll PTE at NYU. That's why the yield is 65%. The yield is 20% at the MSTP program, where free tuition is not a distinguishing feature.

Nothing is going to change. NYU is already getting more than its share of top applicants, regardless of its ranking. It doesn't have a T2 match list because it hasn't matched a class that was attracted with free tuition. Get back to us after the match list for the Class of 2023 is published.

Nobody waited for the match list. Very few people borrow an extra $250K+ to choose Harvard/UCSF/Stanford/etc. over NYU, starting in 2019.

No, it's not possible to meaningfully increase the quality of the class. The people who would be attracted by whatever you think is going to stimulate increased demand in the future are already attracted by $250K+ less in debt. Chicken and egg. The people already in the school are in the process of creating the perception that you think is necessary to attract more of them. The only problem is, NYU is already pulling its entire class from other top schools. There are no more, better people to pull in.

I don’t know if that’s entirely true just yet. There are a subset of people who turn down an NYU offer because schools with better match list and/or personal fit were on par financially. I think that this is a small subset of people, because most schools can only compete with NYU if a student demonstrates financial need, but I do think it’s possible for NYU to retain an even higher portion of people than it currently does. For example, if they got rid of AOA and had a stronger match list throughout the whole US, there are definitely people who would pick it that have turned it down. It takes a while to gain reputation, especially in the eyes of the “old guard” residency programs.

 

[joshuamarcus]

I died when dean rivera brought up knightdoc

 

[KnightDoc]

I died when dean rivera brought up knightdoc

Would it be an auto A or an auto R if I outed myself on my upcoming application???

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Is WL movement similar between ORM and URMs?

PS we have no skin in the game

 

[proudofmykids]

I don’t know if that’s entirely true just yet. There are a subset of people who turn down an NYU offer because schools with better match list and/or personal fit were on par financially. I think that this is a small subset of people, because most schools can only compete with NYU if a student demonstrates financial need, but I do think it’s possible for NYU to retain an even higher portion of people than it currently does. For example, if they got rid of AOA and had a stronger match list throughout the whole US, there are definitely people who would pick it that have turned it down. It takes a while to gain reputation, especially in the eyes of the “old guard” residency programs.

I'll be a fan boy for a moment....
You are mixing current match lists based off of older admission standards/ stats (already very high) as a reason for not-as-expected-strong match list and current yield. Yet they have already made and continue to improve in PD rankings and match lists quality keeps rising! Current match lists are from classes admitted before any mention of free tuition came out, thus NYU didn't land as many top tier candidates compared to now in their new ability to steal them away from many traditional top 5/10 schools.

You also indicated that their match list should be stronger. Yes, there was a huge regional slant, especially since about half the students stayed at NYU for residency, of which most of those staying 'home' were for NYU a Top 10 ranked specialties. Of the remaining half, unthinkable you'll find that the strong majority also matched at top 10 institutions/ residencies. But I agree, I believe their match list will continue to get even stronger.

 

[itsmeskidsy]

Is WL movement similar between ORM and URMs?

PS we have no skin in the game

I don't think anyone except the higher ups in admissions would even have data on this. Very very hard to say without a lot of data nobody has access to

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't think anyone except the higher ups in admissions would even have data on this. Very very hard to say without a lot of data nobody has access to

Not to mention, once the composition of the class is determined through the issuance of initial As, I'd bet it's pretty fair to assume that WL movement will map extremely closely, demographically, to who is withdrawing from the class. So, I'm not sure there is a lot of relevance to the answer beyond what they report as the composition of their matriculated class.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don't think anyone except the higher ups in admissions would even have data on this. Very very hard to say without a lot of data nobody has access to

True. is it false to assume that more ORMs may decline NYU if they get into schools like HMS, Stanford, Hopkins despite being full-pay?

 

[proudofmykids]

True. is it false to assume that more ORMs may decline NYU if they get into schools like HMS, Stanford, Hopkins despite being full-pay?

Yes false for ORM. I think the opposite..URM are more often associated with financial need than ORM. As such they would be more likely to choose HMS, Stanford, Hopkins would offer equivalent financial aid as free tuition.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes false for ORM. I think the opposite..URM are more often associated with financial need than ORM. As such they would be more likely to choose HMS, Stanford, Hopkins would offer equivalent financial aid as free tuition.

Agreed. In my experience, people often talk a good game, but in the end, money rules. NYU's skyrocketing yield the past few years is strong evidence of this, which is why it was a stroke of brilliance on their part to raise the money in order to be able to increasingly draw the best of the best away from the competition. IMHO, the increasing availability of merit scholarships and debt-free fin aid at peer institutions are a direct response to this.

It is very possible that some super wealthy people might forgo free tuition and chase whatever prestige exists above NYU, but, they are far and few between. The vast majority of the 35% NYU loses each year almost certainly receive comparable financial packages elsewhere, either need-based or merit.

It is extremely unlikely that an upper middle class ORM family (or any upper middle class family, for that matter!) will place a $250K+ premium on whatever match list or other perceived advantage they think a so-called better school offers when push comes to shove, no matter how much hemming and hawing they do before finally pulling the trigger. THIS is what we have seen the past two cycles since free tuition became a thing, and we will certainly see it this year with USNWR validating NYU's increasing prestige (or, at least, public perception of prestige).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes false for ORM. I think the opposite..URM are more often associated with financial need than ORM. As such they would be more likely to choose HMS, Stanford, Hopkins would offer equivalent financial aid as free tuition.

What about prestige obsession? How many ORMs will give up those schools for NYU especially HMS and Stanford?

 

[KnightDoc]

What about prestige obsession? How many ORMs will give up those schools for NYU especially HMS and Stanford?

What about??? All we know is that around 50 MD candidates give up a NYU A each year. Period. The data suggests approximately zero of them would be full pay ORMs, or any other group, chasing prestige, "especially at HMS and Stanford."

Of course, if we dig deep enough, we can always find a n=1 example to counter the thesis, but the data suggests it's not a trend. In three years their yield went from 33% to 65% (actually, it only took one year), so, someone is grabbing their money, and it's likely not the people receiving big bucks merit or need based money at the schools you are asking about, so, just who is left?

Anyway, where is prestige obsession going to get anyone 5 years from now, when NYU is probably going to be considered as prestigious as anywhere, due to all the great things they are going to do with all the money they are raising, and all the great things the great students they are attracting are going to go on to do??

Anyone who is full pay at a place like HMS or JHU, who did not get accepted to NYU and comforts themselves by telling themselves it's okay, because they wouldn't have taken the free tuition anyway, because NYU is not HMS or JHU, is just kidding themselves. Pretty much EVERYONE given that choice chooses NYU. THAT's what a 65% yield suggests.

Of course, YMMV, and, of course, no one in a position to be full pay anywhere has to feel bad about attending HMS or Stanford, just because they did not have the opportunity to attend NYU for free.

 

[an123]

I can confirm that several students selecting NYU this year are turning down offers at more traditionally prestigious schools, including (but not limited to) Hopkins, Penn, Stanford, and Columbia. I should also add that some of these students are turning down these programs *even* while receiving substantial aid and/or merit scholarship offers from them. Thus, it does appear that NYU is able to lure applicants with more than just finances (though they are certainly a large factor). Its other strengths include location, clinical training, unrivaled growth in research activity, quickly rising reputation, and innovations in medical education. The "prestige" issue is already becoming old -- NYU is the real deal and admitted students are noticing.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

quickly rising reputation

Is that based on USNWR rating or some other source?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I can confirm that several students selecting NYU this year are turning down offers at more traditionally prestigious schools, including (but not limited to) Hopkins, Penn, Stanford, and Columbia. I should also add that some of these students are turning down these programs *even* while receiving substantial aid and/or merit scholarship offers from them.

Substantial or full like NYU?

 

[doctorBsquared]

And i can confirm that there are people turning down NYU, and even paying more than they would at NYU, for other schools. Don't get me wrong, NYU has plenty going for it, and it would be stupid to pay full boat in loans at literally anywhere else when comparing to NYU. No question about that.

But NYU's ranking on US News is just not reflective of its perceived stature by the broader medical community, at least not yet. Maybe someday soon, but for now, it's not. Like KnightDoc said, there is a reason that the MSTP yield is so much lower than the regular MD yield. As of this moment, NYU's biggest advantage is definitely the money. I don't claim to know how long until that changes, but I can tell you that the reputation of NYU in the eyes of ivory tower academics, the ones who seem to be determinants of 'prestige', is not as solidified (yet) as the other schools that NYU admits are also often choosing between.

For people reading this who are deciding where to go, don't choose based on 'prestige' anyway. Pick the school that will make you happiest (financially, socially, academically, and otherwise) and will be most likely to help you achieve your goals.

To Dean Rivera, I hope you don't see this as disparaging to you or your school. You're wonderful, and I think you are doing amazing things. I'm just calling it like I see it.

 

[an123]

Substantial or full like NYU?

A little bit of each. There are people receiving full tuition at other "prestigious" places who are still coming to NYU for what NYU is.

But NYU's ranking on US News is just not reflective of its perceived stature by the broader medical community, at least not yet. Maybe someday soon, but for now, it's not.

I agree with this. What's interesting though is that recent PD rating data, the most direct metric we have of the perception of the medical community, indicates that this "soon" may be a lot sooner than we think! While I admit that the linked post arbitrarily gives equal weight to research and primary care, the result does place NYU in a tie for 5th with Harvard, Hopkins, and Stanford. Even if we take all of this with many many grains of salt (as we should with any ranking system), we can at least weakly conclude that NYU is turning heads even in the medical profession. They also (per admissions) lead medical schools in federal research funding per faculty member and, over the last 15 years, are #1 among US universities in patent income due to research discoveries. So it's pretty clear that the true gatekeepers in academia -- those who fund it -- are already sufficiently impressed by NYU as a research institution. It should only be a matter of time before the "ivory tower" dwellers catch up.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

A little bit of each. There are people receiving full tuition at other "prestigious" places who are still coming to NYU for what NYU is.


"soon" may be a lot sooner than we think!

Yes. It will be interesting to see if NYU continues free tuition for long time or pull back once they are in T5 for few years.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes. It will be interesting to see if NYU continues free tuition for long time or pull back once they are in T5 for few years.

Nothing to see here. This is not something like Kaiser, where it's a new school incentivizing a new class with money until they get their mojo.

This is a T10 (T5) school. The money was raised to create an endowment to fund this. It is supposed to be for life, not a short term thing to goose rankings. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to end. If anything, the trend will be for more schools to follow. Not for NYU to drop something that is working exactly as intended that is already fully funded. It's not going anywhere.

 

[proudofmykids]

What about??? All we know is that around 50 MD candidates give up a NYU A each year. Period. The data suggests approximately zero of them would be full pay ORMs, or any other group, chasing prestige, "especially at HMS and Stanford."

Of course, if we dig deep enough, we can always find a n=1 example to counter the thesis, but the data suggests it's not a trend. In three years their yield went from 33% to 65% (actually, it only took one year), so, someone is grabbing their money, and it's likely not the people receiving big bucks merit or need based money at the schools you are asking about, so, just who is left?

Anyway, where is prestige obsession going to get anyone 5 years from now, when NYU is probably going to be considered as prestigious as anywhere, due to all the great things they are going to do with all the money they are raising, and all the great things the great students they are attracting are going to go on to do??

Anyone who is full pay at a place like HMS or JHU, who did not get accepted to NYU and comforts themselves by telling themselves it's okay, because they wouldn't have taken the free tuition anyway, because NYU is not HMS or JHU, is just kidding themselves. Pretty much EVERYONE given that choice chooses NYU. THAT's what a 65% yield suggests.

Of course, YMMV, and, of course, no one in a position to be full pay anywhere has to feel bad about attending HMS or Stanford, just because they did not have the opportunity to attend NYU for free.

I wouldn't say Zero.
There are the the ultra rich like the 99.5%ers families where the $260k difference just doesn't warrant consideration versus HMS, Stanford, Penn, JH.

There there are those that received 1/2, 3/4, full or better merit scholarships elsewhere in the T20 that could sway a candidate away from NYU. Realize that 1/2 tuition scholarship vs NYU is about $140k total difference. Some schools that provide large merit aid come to mind that wouldn't surprise me have some success stealing NYU A's could be Mayo Clinic, Vandy, Wash U, UCLA, Michigan, Univ Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern and those schools that give full COA like Kaiser, Penn 21 Century, and others. But, I agree, NYU is quite successful and continues improve it's reputation and yield. Other attraction besides the free tuition is that Six of their home residency programs are considered top 10 and their three year MD program has quite liberal admission after regular admission and guarantees the home residency.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I wouldn't say Zero.
There are the the ultra rich like the 99.5%ers families where the $260k difference just doesn't warrant consideration versus HMS, Stanford, Penn, JH.

There there are those that received 1/2, 3/4, full or better merit scholarships elsewhere in the T20 that could sway a candidate away from NYU. Realize that 1/2 tuition scholarship vs NYU is about $140k total difference. Some schools that provide large merit aid come to mind that wouldn't surprise me have some success stealing NYU A's could be Mayo Clinic, Vandy, Wash U, UCLA, Michigan, Univ Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern and those schools that give full COA like Kaiser, Penn 21 Century, and others. But, I agree, NYU is quite successful and continues improve it's reputation and yield. Other attraction besides the free tuition is that Six of their home residency programs are considered top 10 and their three year MD program has quite liberal admission after regular admission and guarantees the home residency.

BTW, Penn 21 Century is not full COA. It's full tuition + 10K. However it seems they are giving full COA to some using Penn 21 Century plus some other funds.

 

[proudofmykids]

And i can confirm that there are people turning down NYU, and even paying more than they would at NYU, for other schools. Don't get me wrong, NYU has plenty going for it, and it would be stupid to pay full boat in loans at literally anywhere else when comparing to NYU. No question about that.

But NYU's ranking on US News is just not reflective of its perceived stature by the broader medical community, at least not yet. Maybe someday soon, but for now, it's not. Like KnightDoc said, there is a reason that the MSTP yield is so much lower than the regular MD yield. As of this moment, NYU's biggest advantage is definitely the money. I don't claim to know how long until that changes, but I can tell you that the reputation of NYU in the eyes of ivory tower academics, the ones who seem to be determinants of 'prestige', is not as solidified (yet) as the other schools that NYU admits are also often choosing between.

For people reading this who are deciding where to go, don't choose based on 'prestige' anyway. Pick the school that will make you happiest (financially, socially, academically, and otherwise) and will be most likely to help you achieve your goals.

To Dean Rivera, I hope you don't see this as disparaging to you or your school. You're wonderful, and I think you are doing amazing things. I'm just calling it like I see it.

One of the reasons NYU's yield for MSTP is lower compared to other highly ranks programs is that there is a limitation to the areas of study for the PhD degree at NYU. For example, I believe they do Not offer any PhDs in Engineering which would lead to candidates interested in the huge spectrum of biomedical engineering related studies to choose a different School with all else equal.

 

[proudofmykids]

Yes. It will be interesting to see if NYU continues free tuition for long time or pull back once they are in T5 for few years.

My understanding is that the gift/endowment for the free tuition is capable of supporting the program financially in perpetuity, assuming similar class size remains.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My understanding is that the gift/endowment for the free tuition is capable of supporting the program financially in perpetuity, assuming similar class size remains.

Yes, bigger class size/high inflation/bad investments may change full class getting free tuition.

 

[itsmeskidsy]

Yes, bigger class size/high inflation/bad investments may change full class getting free tuition.

Nah they put all that money into dogecoin and Gamestop stocks they're gonna be paying everyone's tuition forever.

 

[bignervousenergy]

Good luck tomorrow to everyone on the WL!

 

[qq297]

just got the A!!! By email just now

 

[cteezy13]

also just got the A!!!!! Omg I’m in tears

 

[stm824]

also just got the A!!!!! Omg I’m in tears

Congrats! Did you also get it ~30 min ago like @lf2021? Trying to figure out if they were sent out at once or are trickling in

 

[bignervousenergy]

Got the A at 2 pm EST! So excited 😭

 

[excitedfuturedoc]

I got the A at 1:55pm EST and I’ve been crying since 😭😭😭😭

 

[itsmeskidsy]

Seems like they must have undershot the 30 to 35 number for today. I doubt we'd only see 3 or 4 if 30 went out. I wonder if they had a higher yield than they expected when Apr 30th came and went

 

[itsmeskidsy]

Seems like they must have undershot the 30 to 35 number for today. I doubt we'd only see 3 or 4 if 30 went out. I wonder if they had a higher yield than they expected when Apr 30th came and went

Or maybe that few people posted about it, but for NYU I doubt it.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Seems like they must have undershot the 30 to 35 number for today. I doubt we'd only see 3 or 4 if 30 went out. I wonder if they had a higher yield than they expected when Apr 30th came and went

you typically see 10% in SDN.

 

[proudofmykids]

you typically see 10% in SDN.

I was going to say SDN = 15-20% general representation.
So six A's posted today....

 

[itsmeskidsy]

I was going to say SDN = 15-20% general representation.
So six A's posted today....

Makes sense. I was just assuming with NYU being the golden school and SDN users typically comprising the more competitive applicants that we might see more in this instance, but obviously my brain was just looking for a reason to hold on to hope for my dream school lol.

 

[proudofmykids]

Makes sense. I was just assuming with NYU being the golden school and SDN users typically comprising the more competitive applicants that we might see more in this instance, but obviously my brain was just looking for a reason to hold on to hope for my dream school lol.

You have about 2.5 weeks before you give up hope.

 

[itsmeskidsy]

You have about 2.5 weeks before you give up hope.

A proper fortnight of lingering anxiety lol. I'll hold on to hope for now

 

[yeetacct]

Update for WL folks: seems like at least 25 people have joined the Facebook group page since Monday.

 

[proudofmykids]

Update for WL folks: seems like at least 25 people have joined the Facebook group page since Monday.

WL shouldn't be dejected by this number. Remember the FB Group is for Accepted Students, not all of whom will matriculate at NYU.

 

[doctorBsquared]

WL shouldn't be dejected by this number. Remember the FB Group is for Accepted Students, not all of whom will matriculate at NYU.

If you turn down the acceptance from NYU, they remove you from the FB Group FYI

 

[proudofmykids]

If you turn down the acceptance from NYU, they remove you from the FB Group FYI

Correct, but they give you a week to consider when coming off the WL. So, my oointismthst although the FB group grew by 25, some might come off leading to more WL movement.

 

[BRTC200]

Neither of you are wrong. The 25 number is probably most useful in the context of first-wave WL acceptances but again, at least one more wave is clearly anticipated. A reminder of what was discussed at a webinar:

Info from the webinar in case people couldn't make it:

-There are ~240 on the WL currently, ~60 total will be admitted from the WL
-First wave of new acceptances (35+) will begin to go out on Monday May 3rd. Smaller waves of acceptances will go out after that.
-Rejections will also begin to go out by the end of May
-Dean Rivera will be emailing instead of calling with acceptances from here on out
-Commit to enroll date for 4 yr MD program is July 19th
-If you know for a fact that NYU is where you want to go, but a school you were accepted to had an early commit to enroll date, send a letter of intent so they know you would rather go to NYU.
-Upload all letters of interest/intent through the portal

He also said Knightdoc was right on the money with their yield estimate lmao

 

[Lifeblood_20]

Withdrew from WL. Best of luck to all!

 

[notificationsforwaitlists]

Is it every Monday that offers go out?

 

[gomedicine123]

Does anyone know if additional waitlist acceptances have been sent out since the first wave at the beginning of May?

 

[yeetacct]

Does anyone know if additional waitlist acceptances have been sent out since the first wave at the beginning of May?

After the big wave at the beginning of May, there were around 6 people that joined last Monday/Tuesday. It's not entirely obvious whether this was a second batch of WL-to-As, but at this point in the cycle it's probably fair to assume fast turnaround response times from students.

 

[proudofmykids]

After the big wave at the beginning of May, there were around 6 people that joined last Monday/Tuesday. It's not entirely obvious whether this was a second batch of WL-to-As, but at this point in the cycle it's probably fair to assume fast turnaround response times from students.

Everyone typically gets five business days to decide. In the case of NYU caliber candidates, the Cascade effect is amongst top rated schools or other similar financial parity offers. Thus, even three weeks later, many students getting off the WL will still take the allowed week to ponder their decision. Last Monday's addition to the acceptance social media group, likely came from those that firstreceived their WL-> A around May 3. Even this week will produce more offers, maybe from poached NYU students getting offers by other schools that would be valued more. There is still runway left.