A depressing job posting

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I wasn't referring to a job where someone was just starting, just a middle of the road job. The average income is currently 350k, so to see offers like that is pretty disheartening. If anything the "highly desirable" places should at least offer the average because you are getting raped on the back end in taxes and high cost of living. A 350k job in NYC is really more like 200k once you account for those factors previously mentioned.

Talking about cost of living is meaningless. A) Your home isn't money spent. It isn't necessarily the investment with the highest return, but it may provide a positive return and will certainly provide a large portion of your money back, especially if you count rent-not-spent against your net cost of home ownership. B) You get something in return for the higher cost of living in San Francisco or NYC. It isn't just wasted money. To some people the trade off for price vs amenities is worth it. To others it wouldn't be. The cost of living in the rural midwest is higher than in NY if you spend a fortune traveling to better locations every few weeks. (not that the rural midwest isn't paradise for some people, I'm just using it as an example where someone moves there for the cost of living not because they actually like it)

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Knowing that attitude, all the anesthesiologists should be planning their exit Amyl. The writing is on the wall.
Though admin will change their tune at the first bad outcome. As will the surgeon or GI guy that gets named as the supervisor of the "just a nurse" CRNA.
They also obviously don't understand the care team.

I'm almost certain they won't.
 
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9,10 and 11 are where you're set up for a hard fall amyl. That is not compatible. Someone else posted recently about a similar arrangement, and it didn't seem that they fully realized the compromised position that they were in.
I did the above as well when I was at the tiny hospital in the .mil. No fun. BUT we didn't do any real trauma, and certainly no elective cases after 3 or on weekends. When I was in a case, we closed to new OB, and I delayed surgeries when there were laboring patients (which was low volume). The surgeons were very fast, which also helps.
If the surgeon didn't want to wait, another hospital is only a quick flight or ambulance ride away. They could answer to the CO about why the patient was transferred out. You can guess how often that happened.
You can't get out of there soon enough!
 
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Nope. Admin doesn't give a ****.... The guy I replaced had an airway death case.... They still fought me on a $50 aintree catheter and said no to a pedi video laryngoscope
 
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Nope. Admin doesn't give a ****.... The guy I replaced had an airway death case.... They still fought me on a $50 aintree catheter and said no to a pedi video laryngoscope
As somebody older and wiser once told me: It's all a matter of numbers. The bean counters budget for these risks, and long-term it's cheaper for them to pay damages (and higher self-insurance reserves) than to invest (in equipment, anesthesiologists, you name it).

That's one of the side effects of having made anesthesia safer in the last few decades (independent CRNAs are another).

And if something bad does happen, in the worst case scenario the doc goes bankrupt, the hospital goes bankrupt (or has to pay a fortune), but the parasites administrators who pocketed all those fat bonuses for "saving money", for years, get to move on to another corpse, unpunished. Just look at the banking industry. It's a win-win situation; their only way to lose is to give up the bonuses for the sake of e.g. equipment. ;)

Cherchez la prime!
 
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They said there is no way they are going to pay anesthesiologists salaries to "sit around and do nothing all day."

.
here is the crux of the matter.Administrators think we sit around and DO NOTHING all day. They dont value us. They value more the monkey on the stool. I guess we should be that monkey on the stool and make twice as much as the current monkey on the stool.
 
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This job sucks. Want it? They are looking.... Why am I leaving? 1. Bfe flyover state 2. Admin 3. A couple dingus surgeons 4. One dingus anesthesiologist who is always the fly in the ointment 5. A partner who isn't be/bc n is shady as hell 6. Another partner who is be but not bc n is really scary plus partner who is whack job pain guy w no fellowship who is crazy shady 7. Have to work post call 8. Take call from 7am fri to 7am Monday.... Then off call but still work.... First out 9. Zero back up.... It's just you 10. You cover OB, trauma, or, endo call and airway back up call - one person to do all that 11. You do elective cases on the weekend 12. Patients are so mismanaged pre and post op 13. Icu is a joke - run by hospitalists that don't do lines, etc. run epi and ppn in bad peripheral ivs for a week so if I often manage my own Icu patients 14. Crnas do their own cases but surgeons expect us to back them up even if that means leaving our patient on the table unsupervised 15. no lunch or other breaks ever... Stuck in a 8 hour case? oh well there likely no one to give you a pee break 16. Half the nurses are brand new grads - OR staff is good but floor, step down, icu and OB nurses are horrible. 17. Admission histories and h and ps are worthless - you always have to start w square one with the patients 18. Patient population is awful - 90% Asa 3-4, average bmi 40 with plenty in the 50s n 60s, majority smoke. 19. Limited equipment and pharmacology.... Want me to keep going?
why are you still there?
 
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CRNA DNAP MBA HCM scared of losing outpt GI gigs to Sedasys, writes article:

http://www.gastroendonews.com/ViewA...ews&d_id=187&i=June+2014&i_id=1072&a_id=27662

Why We Need Anesthesia Providers, Not Robots Or RNs, in GI Settings Pushing Medications
Re: “Use, Cost of Anesthesia for Endoscopy Increasing,” by Monica J. Smith. Gastroenterology & Endoscopy News, May 2012;63:1,26-27.
Kim Riviello, DNP, MBA/HCM, CRNA
President, Anesthesia Services Group
Tipp City, Ohio

As a certified nurse anesthetist (CRNA), I am horrified at the thought that we could have robots pushing potentially lethal medications. Oh, yes—it is going to be used on healthy patients. I forgot.

Our population is growing older and sicker. I just completed my dissertation on this topic, in which I reviewed 3,200 charts and proved that there is a definite trend in increased comorbidities in patients being seen not only in gastroenterology settings but also ambulatory surgery centers (ASCs). The following is a brief excerpt from my dissertation, which has been edited for publication in Gastroenterology & Endoscopy News:

A Retrospective Study of a Gastroenterology Facility: Are the Patients Sicker?

There has been substantial growth in the number of ASCs across the United States. With the advancement in technology for noninvasive procedures and shorter-acting anesthetics, more patients are being seen in freestanding surgery facilities. However, the trend in patient comorbidities (e.g., obesity, diabetes, cardiac respiratory diseases) also has risen, increasing the risk for an anesthesia-related event, even when low-risk procedures are performed. The most common malpractice claims have been associated with diagnostic procedures performed in ASCs under monitored anesthesia care (MAC) with patient comorbidities as contributing factors. The morbidity and mortality of ambulatory surgery patients has led to an increased concern for patient safety in freestanding facilities. Of particular concern is sedation, specifically in gastroenterology (GI) centers. Yet, the Journal of the American Medical Association recently reported that two-thirds of the anesthesia procedures provided during colonoscopies and esophagogastroduodenoscopies (EGDs) were on “low-risk patients,” suggesting a lack of need for professionally administered anesthesia in GI facilities and implying that specialist-monitored anesthesia would contribute to the increased cost of these procedures (Liu H et al. JAMA2012;307:1178-1184). This study is a retrospective chart review of 3,252 patients, conducted at a GI center over a 10-month period in 2011. The patients’ ages ranged from 18 to 95 years. Procedures involved were either an EGD and/or a colonoscopy with MAC. The preoperative assessment and anesthesia record was used to gather information on each patient. A data analysis table was developed to log comorbidities on a monthly basis (total number and percentages). The comorbidities of the MAC patients were correlated with the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) physical classification system to stratify patients based on disease entities. These data were then compared to provide evidence of an increased trend in the percentage of high-risk patients and associated morbidity and mortality.


In 1983, there were approximately 239 freestanding surgery facilities in the United States (Durant G. Medical Group Management Journal 1989;36:16-18,20). By 2003, there were more than 3,300 (Casalino LP et al. Health Aff 2003;22:56-67; Winter A. Health Aff 2003;22:68-75) and by 2010, the number increased by 61% to 5,316 (“ASC Services,” 2012).

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services conducted a study in 2006, to determine the number of surgical and nonsurgical (diagnostic) procedures performed in outpatient settings and freestanding surgery facilities. They collected the data using the 2006 National Survey of Ambulatory Surgery. The sample was composed of 398 freestanding surgery facilities; 295 (74.1%) responded to the survey.

The National Survey of Ambulatory Surgery estimated that 53.3 million surgical and nonsurgical (diagnostic) procedures were performed in ASCs, with 14.9 million occurring in freestanding surgery facilities. The most frequently performed procedures were colonoscopies (5.7 million), upper endoscopies (3.5 million), extraction of lens (3.1 million) and insertion of prosthetic lens (2.6 million). General anesthesia was performed in 30.7% of freestanding surgery facilities, with greater than 20.8% providing MAC (Cullen KA et al. National Health Statistics Reports Number 11. Revised. Hyattsville, MD: National Center for Health Statistics: 2009). The Medicare Payment Advisor Commission reported that in 2010, 3.3 million Medicare beneficiaries were seen in freestanding surgery facilities (“ASC Services,” 2012).

Metzner et al performed a closed claims analysis in areas outside hospital operating rooms (ORs), but within the hospital setting, to determine the risk associated with anesthesia being performed in these remote locations (Curr Opin Anaesthesiol 2009,22:502-508). They thought that even though the procedures were relatively noninvasive, serious outcomes could occur. They analyzed claims in the ASA Closed Claims database (1990-1999), comparing injuries associated with care in remote sites (n=87) and hospital ORs (n=3,286). Patients in remote locations were more than 70 years old (>20%), sicker (69%; ASA status 3-5) and underwent more emergent procedures (36%), compared with patients in hospital settings. The predominant anesthetic in these locations was MAC, which resulted in eightfold more claims compared with OR procedures (50% vs. 6%, respectively). The locations most commonly involved in claims were GI suites (32%) and cardiac catheterization laboratories (25%). The severity of injury was greater in remote locations than in ORs, with mortality almost doubled. Adverse respiratory events, oxygen/ventilation being the most common, occurred in both remote and OR locations, but remote locations had sevenfold greater occurrences. Respiratory depression caused by oversedation and loss of airway was responsible for 26 remote-location claims; more than half occurred in the endoscopy suite. Patient factors contributing to oversedation and loss of airway were obesity, sleep apnea, ASA status 3 to 4 and age greater than 70 years.

In February 2006, a closed claims analysis of cases with MAC found that patients who were older (>70 years) and sicker (ASA status 3-4) had more claims associated with morbidity and mortality (40%; Bhananker SM et al. Anesthesiology 2006;104:228-234). Bishop et al also examined malpractice claims, comparing outpatient (freestanding and hospital-based) and OR procedures from 2005 to 2009 (JAMA 2011;305:2427-2431). In the outpatient setting, the most common claim was diagnostic procedures under MAC (45.9%).

The ASA scoring system is a valuable tool in evidence-based anesthesia practice, helping to determine intraoperative and postoperative complications for patients based on their overall health status. It is also valuable in ascertaining quality outcome measures and patient safety indicators based on comorbidities. Tracking of risk indicators in hospitals has been an important tool to improve quality of patient safety and is now an incentivized program for hospitals (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, “Hospital Initiatives,” 2011). However, this has not occurred in freestanding surgery facilities. A 2009 study surveyed diagnosis-based risk adjustment for surgical and procedural outcomes in ASCs. Seven-day mortality rates for hospital-based outpatient surgery and freestanding facilities were examined. The study revealed that hospital-based outpatient surgery centers reported comorbidities more frequently than freestanding facilities: 59.6% versus 8.7%, respectively, in cataract patients and 90% versus 45%, respectively, in GI patients (Chukmaitov AS et al. Health Care Manag Sci 2009;12:420-433). The requirement for these data from freestanding facilities could be a valuable tool in determining the future morbidity and mortality of patients being seen in these facilities. Studies have demonstrated that freestanding facilities have definitive risks associated with patient comorbidities and the type of anesthesia provided, with diagnostic centers and endoscopy centers providing MAC sedation having the most associated claims.

Yet, in the 2006 National Survey of Ambulatory Surgery data, there was no information on the comorbidities of the 14.9 million people seen in freestanding facilities and the risk associated with anesthesia. The National Survey of Ambulatory Surgery report stated that procedures in freestanding facilities and outpatient hospital-based facilities increased by 300% over a 10-year period. If this trend continues, by 2016, 44.7 million people will be seen in freestanding facilities. Six million will be older than 65 years and undergoing gastrointestinal procedures (Cullen KA et al. National Health Statistics Reports Number 11. Revised. Hyattsville, MD: National Center for Health Statistics; 2009). In this study, more than 50% of the patient population seeking GI procedures were between the ages of 51 and 70 years. Comorbidities most frequently observed were hypertension, hyperlipidemia, sleep apnea, gastroesophageal reflux disease, diabetes, smoking, coronary artery disease and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; these comorbidities increased over time, and the increase was statistically significant. Body mass index did not change over time in a statistically significant manner. ASA status 3 cases increased over the study period; changes in ASA status 2 cases were not significant, and ASA status 1 represented only 2.58% of cases.

Liu et al reported that 66% of anesthesia administered in GI facilities is to “low-risk” patients (JAMA 2012;307:1178-1184). They found that the combination of ASA 1 and 2 cases represented 43.5% of patients receiving anesthesia. Studies have shown that the higher the ASA classification, the greater the odds ratio for developing a postoperative complication. Mortality rates have been reported to be 0.3% to 1.4% for ASA 2, 1.8% to 5.4% for ASA 3, and 7.8% to 25.9% for ASA 4 (Wolters U et al. Br J Anaesth 1996;77:217-222). In a more recent study, Bishop et al reported that major injury and death occurred in the outpatient setting 36.1% and 30.6% of the time, respectively (JAMA 2011;305:2427-2431). As the number of ASA 3 patients seen in freestanding facilities continues to increase over time, are the risks associated with these patients acceptable? Unfortunately, as the study indicates, this is the trend in our society, with the largest generation now aged between 50 and 75 years. The safety of these patients is determined by comorbidities and the assessment performed by the anesthesia clinician and the consultants they deem necessary to determine what is best for each patient. The ASA classification system is subjective in classifying patient risks; however, the anesthesia professional is trained to make this determination with the patient’s safety in mind.

With the continued increase in demand for freestanding facilities, analysis and documentation of patient comorbidities should be tracked to gain a better understanding of the type of patients being seen in these isolated locations and how to address associated patient safety issues. Administrators and federal and state agencies need to be aware of the level of risk associated with these diseases to ensure that the proper clinician is determining which patients are or are not at risk from a procedure. Bishop et al suggested that because of the high percentage of claims linked to diagnostic procedures with MAC anesthesia, safety initiatives should be developed focusing on the outpatient setting (JAMA 2011;305:2427-2431).

Chukmaitov et al recommended that federal and state agencies mandate hospital-based outpatient surgery centers and freestanding facilities to provide comprehensive information on all patients related to comorbidities to help determine patient safety guidelines and risk-adjustment measures (Health Care Manag Sci 2009;12:420-433). A performance measure recommended by the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission states that incentives should not discourage providers from accepting riskier or more complex patients, yet the outcome measures that they encouraged the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services to incorporate for ASCs do not require any risk adjustment. Patient falls and burns, and wrong site, wrong side, wrong patient, wrong procedure, and wrong implant procedures, as well as hospital transfer/admission errors and surgical site infections are all preventable outcome measurements and are not affected by a patient’s health status (“ASC Services,” 2012). Quantifying patient comorbidities and ASA classifications, as exemplified in this study, would help evaluate risk adjustments as the acuity of the patient population increases. The advantage of having anesthesia during GI cases has been demonstrated through preoperative screening, intraprocedural safety and postoperative satisfaction (Hass W. AnesthesiaReviews Blog, 2013; www.physynergy.com/blog-anesthesia-services/bid/143340/Anesthesia-Services-Should-Be-Used-For-GI-Endoscopy). This study revealed that most of the patients receiving anesthesia were classified as ASA 3.

So, is cost still an issue, knowing that the majority of the patients are sick? According to Lui et al, by advocating patient safety, anesthesia is helping to decrease the cost of health care by decreasing intraoperative and postoperative complications (JAMA 2012;307:1178-1184). Hass found that examining cost and procedural factors alone only represents a hindrance to anesthesia; it is through a comprehensive analysis of patient assessments that the societal advantages of patient safety and satisfaction can be found (AnesthesiaReviews Blog, 2013;www.physynergy.com/blog-anesthesia-services/bid/143340/Anesthesia-Services-Should-Be-Used-For-GI-Endoscopy). Anesthesia intervention is pivotal in freestanding facilities, including GI centers, to ensure proper evaluation of patient comorbidities and risk factors, ascertaining the appropriate anesthetics are administered, and patients remain safe.

Regardless of the practice environment, patients should be assured that they are receiving a safe and quality anesthetic from an anesthesia professional.
 
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What do you guys think of this job posting...it's about 45 mins from major desirable metro area, at a brand new new small hospital. Large healthcare organization/hospital employee. This is in a non-opt out state.

Location is where we've always wanted to move.

Does this job sound like a another liability disaster working with CRNAS waiting to happen? Pitfalls?

(CRNA job ad at same hospital says the CRNAS take call.)

Anything you recommend to ask administration?

Or would you take a 'pass' on this job?

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post on forum.

Thanks!


Job Ad states:

  • The division works largely in a “medically directed” Anesthesia Care Team

  • The initial team will be 2 anesthesiologists and 4 CRNAs

  • The team will be the exclusive provider of Anesthesiology services at the new hospital

  • Up to 5 anesthetizing locations on weekdays, including Labor and Delivery

  • New facility will include 4 ORs, a procedure room, a C-section suite, and 2 endoscopy suites

  • Case mix will include both general and specialty surgical care with no cardiac or neuro.

  • Call is equitable but flexible
 
Medical direction is what you want. You're actively involved in the care of the patient and what the CRNA is doing. Supervision seems like another word for a fall guy to me. That's not a system I would be a part of.
I'm not sure how 2 MDs and 4CRNAs can cover 5 locations (including L&D) in a medical direction model unless you're working post call and never taking vacation.
I suspect their staffing model is wrong, or it's not really medical direction. Probably both.
CRNAs taking call covering OB while the MD is at home in bed is common in CA and makes us look replaceable, but then again, who cares what OBs think. I don't like that supervision set up either as you're name is on the chart and you're accepting liability for whatever malpractice the nurse is committing, because the Administration can't/won't pay for proper coverage. And, you're not even there to bail them out. The patient and/or baby will be dead or worse by the time they call for help let alone you driving in to help.
Sounds like a bad job to me.
 
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IlDestriero- Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I agree, I would never want to be in a "supervision" setting, and certainly wouldn't want to be at home while someone was performing anesthesia on my license...I'm pretty OCD, for anesthesia anyway, I won't even run labor epidurals and cover VBACs from home even though most others do at this rural hospital I'm at--- and don't want to ever be someone's fall guy/scapegoat. I just wanted to see if there was something I was missing in this ad that could redeem it....

I'm in somewhat same job situation to what amyl described in rural BFE hospital, but MD only, and required to cover neonatal resuscitation on top of everything else amyl described...and I'm looking for another job.....but just don't like what's out there. 2-3 year partner track in Physician only groups just doesn't sit right at this stage in my life, to be possibly worked like a dog, and taken advantage of and paid less, with only possibility of being considered for partnership...plus just to even be considered for interview/(as screening tool?) many of them are asking for recent letters of recommendation along with your CV....wtf, I'm in super small $hitty rural hospital and don't want to announce I'm leaving until I have another job, and have to give 90 day notice per contract as I will be treated like total crap by the others, plus risk getting fired on the spot, so want my ducks in a row with another job lined up....I guess the big groups out there have the luxury of requesting those letters before even talking to you to give you information about the job, because of the high demand/applications, or really it is their way of saying they only want to hire new grads....as getting letters from residency is easier, and everyone expects it.

....But medically directing 4 CRNAS isn't what I want either, I guess, unless it was small group and I really knew each persons capability.

But really there are not a lot of great job options out there. I guess I'll keep on looking.

Thanks for the information. I had a feeling it seemed like it might be understaffed for true medical direction.
 
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Just send them a nice cover letter stating your rationale for not wanting to give "recent" LOR, and let them know that as the interview process progresses if you guys find yourselves to be a good fit for each other you could provide this. Or, if there are any surgeons you trust use one of them.
 
That hospital is more like 75 minutes from the desirable metropolitan area.

What do you guys think of this job posting...it's about 45 mins from major desirable metro area, at a brand new new small hospital. Large healthcare organization/hospital employee. This is in a non-opt out state.

Location is where we've always wanted to move.

Does this job sound like a another liability disaster working with CRNAS waiting to happen? Pitfalls?

(CRNA job ad at same hospital says the CRNAS take call.)

Anything you recommend to ask administration?

Or would you take a 'pass' on this job?

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post on forum.

Thanks!


Job Ad states:

  • The division works largely in a “medically directed” Anesthesia Care Team

  • The initial team will be 2 anesthesiologists and 4 CRNAs

  • The team will be the exclusive provider of Anesthesiology services at the new hospital

  • Up to 5 anesthetizing locations on weekdays, including Labor and Delivery

  • New facility will include 4 ORs, a procedure room, a C-section suite, and 2 endoscopy suites

  • Case mix will include both general and specialty surgical care with no cardiac or neuro.

  • Call is equitable but flexible
 
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That hospital is more like 75 minutes from the desirable metropolitan area.

Did not mean to misrepresent....just going by google maps......from the hospital address, Google Maps currently says 53 minutes to downtown city center, but 31 minutes to 'suburban' upscale outdoor shopping mall, which is better than where I'm living now (1.5-2.5 hour round trip to nearest mid-sized cities)....

Know anything about the job set up?
 
Did not mean to misrepresent....just going by google maps......from the hospital address, Google Maps currently says 53 minutes to downtown city center, but 31 minutes to 'suburban' upscale outdoor shopping mall, which is better than where I'm living now (1.5-2.5 hour round trip to nearest mid-sized cities)....

Know anything about the job set up?

I wasn't suggesting you were being dishonest. I was just warning you that it's not commutable. I made that drive thinking you could commute from the western burbs but found the drive to be way further than expected.
 
I wasn't suggesting you were being dishonest. I was just warning you that it's not commutable. I made that drive thinking you could commute from the western burbs but found the drive to be way further than expected.

Ok gotcha! I
 
Ok gotcha! I

Whoops! Stupid iPhone. Hit reply too soon by accident.

I think I know what this rural small hospital situation entails...(I think)..... I would plan to live right by the hospital. I'm making that mistake now by being *just* out of call back range for better location/house situation, and have to stay in house for frequent call because of it. I was thinking that it's much more desirable location when off (as long as you aren't perpetually "on" or have to be perpetually "available" or on the hook for the CRNAs), it has way better weather, etc. than situation I'm in now, and spouse has always wanted to live in that general area. It seems like it would be good opportunity if it was all MDs.
 
What is the realistic agenda that we should be unifying behind at this point? AA expansion? Mandated physician supervision? PSH? All out assault on CRNAs and exposing them in public ad campaigns regarding safety concerns? Strike? Putting our foot down against AMCs?
 
Physician supervision. Midlevels should not practice medicine alone, except for a very limited scope. Any APRN, not just CRNAs.
 
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Medical direction is what you want. You're actively involved in the care of the patient and what the CRNA is doing. Supervision seems like another word for a fall guy to me. That's not a system I would be a part of.
I'm not sure how 2 MDs and 4CRNAs can cover 5 locations (including L&D) in a medical direction model unless you're working post call and never taking vacation.
I suspect their staffing model is wrong, or it's not really medical direction. Probably both.
CRNAs taking call covering OB while the MD is at home in bed is common in CA and makes us look replaceable, but then again, who cares what OBs think. I don't like that supervision set up either as you're name is on the chart and you're accepting liability for whatever malpractice the nurse is committing, because the Administration can't/won't pay for proper coverage. And, you're not even there to bail them out. The patient and/or baby will be dead or worse by the time they call for help let alone you driving in to help.
Sounds like a bad job to me.

Read the ad again. Says "up to 5 anesthesia locations".

This usually means they rarely have or don't anticipate 5 locations running.

If that's the case. The MD will do own cases and 4 crna will change their charts immediately to "non medically directed".

It's been done in many places before.

the post call person will have priority leaving to go home and rarely is there a case in the middle of the night anyways.
 
If that's the case. The MD will do own cases and 4 crna will change their charts immediately to "non medically directed".

Is that legitimate to do in a non opt-out state (TX)? Would that be considered supervision, or independent CRNA practice?

(I think I read that for medical direction it's ok for MD to go place labor epidural and still be medically directing, but not if MD goes to do own case.)

So let's say you are only MD available (other physician is post call or on vacation) and you are medically directing 4 CRNAS in the OR, and then STAT c-section gets called....does MD go do c-section? Then what happens with documentation/coverage for CRNAS in the OR if you were medically directing, but you are in non opt out state (TX), and now have to go do c-section? Or in TX legally does there always have to be Anesthesiologist available for medical direction of CRNA?

This seems like a difficult situation because now you aren't available for CRNA OR emergence or PACU coverage either if you are in c-section.
 
Is that legitimate to do in a non opt-out state (TX)? Would that be considered supervision, or independent CRNA practice?

(I think I read that for medical direction it's ok for MD to go place labor epidural and still be medically directing, but not if MD goes to do own case.)

So let's say you are only MD available (other physician is post call or on vacation) and you are medically directing 4 CRNAS in the OR, and then STAT c-section gets called....does MD go do c-section? Then what happens with documentation/coverage for CRNAS in the OR if you were medically directing, but you are in non opt out state (TX), and now have to go do c-section? Or in TX legally does there always have to be Anesthesiologist available for medical direction of CRNA?

This seems like a difficult situation because now you aren't available for CRNA OR emergence or PACU coverage either if you are in c-section.

In non opt out states, the surgeon can bill for supervision if you can believe that one. So in those cases it will default back to the surgeon. If he is agreeable. Basically, those collecting the billings dont want Anesthesiology to exist as a medical specialty. Its too costly. They want the surgeon to order anesthesia and it be given by crnas at their discretion. The reason why this is not completely palatable YET is because people still have bad outcomes. And i mean seriously bad outcomes. They need a fall guy.. Guess who that is......
 
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In non opt out states, the surgeon can bill for supervision if you can believe that one. So in those cases it will default back to the surgeon. If he is agreeable. Basically, those collecting the billings dont want Anesthesiology to exist as a medical specialty. Its too costly. They want the surgeon to order anesthesia and it be given by crnas at their discretion. The reason why this is not completely palatable YET is because people still have bad outcomes. And i mean seriously bad outcomes. They need a fall guy.. Guess who that is......
A surgeon supervising a crna to me seems like a seasonaed racecar driver supervising a student pilot...
 
A surgeon supervising a crna to me seems like a seasonaed racecar driver supervising a student pilot...
More like a seasoned tailor.
 
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Everything in medicine seems to be depressing/changing these days. GI will suck once virtual colonoscopy becomes standardized, and the demand for Cards will plummet once the atherosclerosis vaccine comes out. Surgeons are being bought out by the suits and being stripped of all autonomy, and will lose a lot of power once the transition away from FFS is complete. General IM will always be in demand, but starting salaries in major cities are 150-180K.
 
Is that legitimate to do in a non opt-out state (TX)? Would that be considered supervision, or independent CRNA practice?

(I think I read that for medical direction it's ok for MD to go place labor epidural and still be medically directing, but not if MD goes to do own case.)

So let's say you are only MD available (other physician is post call or on vacation) and you are medically directing 4 CRNAS in the OR, and then STAT c-section gets called....does MD go do c-section? Then what happens with documentation/coverage for CRNAS in the OR if you were medically directing, but you are in non opt out state (TX), and now have to go do c-section? Or in TX legally does there always have to be Anesthesiologist available for medical direction of CRNA?

This seems like a difficult situation because now you aren't available for CRNA OR emergence or PACU coverage either if you are in c-section.

It's totally legit even in non opt out states.

And anesthesia collection is still anesthesia collection. It's less with supervising vs medical direction. But the anesthesia charges still go to the anesthesia corporation (not the surgeon).

If you are only md available during stat c/s. MD (or Crna) doesn't matter goes to which ever room they want to go.
 
I'm in somewhat same job situation to what amyl described in rural BFE hospital, but MD only, and required to cover neonatal resuscitation on top of everything else amyl described...and I'm looking for another job.....but just don't like what's out there. 2-3 year partner track in Physician only groups just doesn't sit right at this stage in my life, to be possibly worked like a dog, and taken advantage of and paid less, with only possibility of being considered for partnership...plus just to even be considered for interview/(as screening tool?) many of them are asking for recent letters of recommendation along with your CV....wtf, I'm in super small $hitty rural hospital and don't want to announce I'm leaving until I have another job, and have to give 90 day notice per contract as I will be treated like total crap by the others, plus risk getting fired on the spot, so want my ducks in a row with another job lined up....I guess the big groups out there have the luxury of requesting those letters before even talking to you to give you information about the job, because of the high demand/applications, or really it is their way of saying they only want to hire new grads....as getting letters from residency is easier, and everyone expects it.

You have no friends at your current practice who can write you a letter? Surgeons who know and trust you? How does that happen?


This is why it is so important to cultivate and maintain relationships with your fellow residents and faculty during training and with coworkers in PP. This is your professional network and they will be your best resource when you go job hunting. You can get the real scoop from people you know and trust. And they can vouch for your skills and character.
 
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You have no friends at your current practice who can write you a letter? Surgeons who know and trust you? How does that happen?


This is why it is so important to cultivate and maintain relationships with your fellow residents and faculty during training and with coworkers in PP. This is your professional network and they will be your best resource when you go job hunting. You can get the real scoop from people you know and trust. And they can vouch for your skills and character.

Of course I completely agree, and do have friends and faculty from residency, plenty; and they are in the process of writing letters now.....but I'm currently in a very tiny rural department, with unprofessional crazy malignant people, and have reasons for not wanting to highlight fact that I'm leaving until I have a new job lined up. I'm well thought of and liked by the surgeons, but it's a small rural town, news travels like wildfire, so I think it might be an issue even with surgeons, and I don't want to risk it til I have exit plan. After I give my 4 month required notice I know they will treat me like total crap, I've seen them do it to others before, so I want to minimize that.

But some places are asking for current letters from current colleagues, just to be considered for application review/interview, without providing info about the group, and if I were in a large group/large hospital it would be no issue to get those letters. One place even asks to have you sign a waiver to agree that they can contact your current employer before even talking to you. Uh hello, that puts the current job in jeopardy. That was the major thing I had issue with.

I have glowing recommendations, no issues, team player, good skills, super hard worker, I'm just in a crappy job that was not as advertised and need a new one.
 
What does that even mean? Pretty sure they aren't on the corner panhandling.

Think of the wonderful chain of events that follow 6 months without a paycheck - losing your home to a short sale or selling it at a massive loss in a depressed market, blowing through your nestegg and depleting your retirement accounts, marriage falling apart, having to take a job FAR from home and not being able to afford to relocate. All this happened.. to people I know and used to work with.

When I say they didn't land on their feet I don't mean to imply that they are driving cabs for a living.. but these guys took a serious beating financially and psychologically due to a series of events that they had absolutely no control over. On top of that they were fed a steady stream of false assurance while the owners of the group fought to keep the new owners of the hospital from kicking us out. They were comfortable, happy and felt solid earth beneath their feet and then with a whopping 60 days notice it was all gone. It can take a long time to start a new job and if you're a dope like me and most of the docs I know chances are you need to make at least a $10k nut every month just to keep a roof over your head and your toys from being repossessed.

I love my job, I truly and honestly wouldn't want any other job in the world but the complete lack of job security is draining the life out of me.
 
anesthesiologists circa 2025 :help:

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I love my job, I truly and honestly wouldn't want any other job in the world but the complete lack of job security is draining the life out of me.

That's why you should have 12+ months of living expenses liquid and ready to use at a moment's notice. That's why you shouldn't have a house and cars that you are just making payments on. If you lose your job then you don't have to worry about finding another one right away and you don't have to sell your house right away.

People do it to themselves by living beyond their means. That's self inflicted pain.
 
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That's why you should have 12+ months of living expenses liquid and ready to use at a moment's notice. That's why you shouldn't have a house and cars that you are just making payments on. If you lose your job then you don't have to worry about finding another one right away and you don't have to sell your house right away.

People do it to themselves by living beyond their means. That's self inflicted pain.
That's what happens usually when a financially immature/uneducated person marries another. You know, Dumb and Dumber, the real-life Monopoly version.
 
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That's what happens usually when a financially immature/uneducated person marries another. You know, Dumb and Dumber, the real-life Monopoly version.

Physicians as a group are terrible at managing money. A lot of it probably has to do with spending years going into debt followed by years in residency earning only small sums of money. It's the ultimate delayed gratification and too many of us go wild when we finally get the big paychecks. Not enough millionaires next door amongst us.
 
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Think of the wonderful chain of events that follow 6 months without a paycheck - losing your home to a short sale or selling it at a massive loss in a depressed market, blowing through your nestegg and depleting your retirement accounts, marriage falling apart, having to take a job FAR from home and not being able to afford to relocate. All this happened.. to people I know and used to work with.

When I say they didn't land on their feet I don't mean to imply that they are driving cabs for a living.. but these guys took a serious beating financially and psychologically due to a series of events that they had absolutely no control over. On top of that they were fed a steady stream of false assurance while the owners of the group fought to keep the new owners of the hospital from kicking us out. They were comfortable, happy and felt solid earth beneath their feet and then with a whopping 60 days notice it was all gone. It can take a long time to start a new job and if you're a dope like me and most of the docs I know chances are you need to make at least a $10k nut every month just to keep a roof over your head and your toys from being repossessed.

I love my job, I truly and honestly wouldn't want any other job in the world but the complete lack of job security is draining the life out of me.


Yeah, I have to say if these guys/gals were living that tight to begin with, that's the definition of "beyond your means" in my book. I trust nobody (in the work setting) and no promises by hospital administration or group owners/partners. It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I've sat back and watched partners of a decade or more turn and put the knife in the other's back if there was financial gain involved. Happened to me personally. Trust yourself, prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

I totally understand your last sentence....the best way I've learned to cope with the lack of security is to live way below my means (thankfully the wife is also of this mindset)...the stress is still there, but it's not suffocating because I know I can always do locums work and more than pay the bills. We still live nicely, a great neighborhood in a nice home, vacation once a year, fully funding retirement and college funds, etc. We aren't living in a million dollar house and we aren't driving hundreds of thousands of $$ of cars though.
 
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Think of the wonderful chain of events that follow 6 months without a paycheck - losing your home to a short sale or selling it at a massive loss in a depressed market, blowing through your nestegg and depleting your retirement accounts, marriage falling apart, having to take a job FAR from home and not being able to afford to relocate. All this happened.. to people I know and used to work with.

When I say they didn't land on their feet I don't mean to imply that they are driving cabs for a living.. but these guys took a serious beating financially and psychologically due to a series of events that they had absolutely no control over. On top of that they were fed a steady stream of false assurance while the owners of the group fought to keep the new owners of the hospital from kicking us out. They were comfortable, happy and felt solid earth beneath their feet and then with a whopping 60 days notice it was all gone. It can take a long time to start a new job and if you're a dope like me and most of the docs I know chances are you need to make at least a $10k nut every month just to keep a roof over your head and your toys from being repossessed.

I love my job, I truly and honestly wouldn't want any other job in the world but the complete lack of job security is draining the life out of me.
The nature of this field is that you need to have access to 6 months of relatively liquid income. I'm happy to give up some returns to sleep at night without ever worrying about money and job loss.
If they went all in on a 911 turbo and/or are house poor, that's all on them. My shop is required to give us 6 months notice, but they could always fire anyone "for cause" so I assume the axe could always fall on anyone. Call me paranoid, but prepared.
Live below your means. Because you never know what's coming.
As for the house, if you're in a low to moderate income area and buy a palace, plan to die in it or sell it for significant discount. That's the nature of that housing market when you buy a 1%er home in a non affluent area. I contemplated buying a home like that once years ago, but I'd still own it now and be living 1000s of miles away. It was something to behold and it's probably still for sale. ;) The former CEO of my father in laws old hospital's house is still for sale going on 3 years now. They were neighbors. It's also quite a home.
 
Think of the wonderful chain of events that follow 6 months without a paycheck - losing your home to a short sale or selling it at a massive loss in a depressed market, blowing through your nestegg and depleting your retirement accounts, marriage falling apart, having to take a job FAR from home and not being able to afford to relocate. All this happened.. to people I know and used to work with.

When I say they didn't land on their feet I don't mean to imply that they are driving cabs for a living.. but these guys took a serious beating financially and psychologically due to a series of events that they had absolutely no control over. On top of that they were fed a steady stream of false assurance while the owners of the group fought to keep the new owners of the hospital from kicking us out. They were comfortable, happy and felt solid earth beneath their feet and then with a whopping 60 days notice it was all gone. It can take a long time to start a new job and if you're a dope like me and most of the docs I know chances are you need to make at least a $10k nut every month just to keep a roof over your head and your toys from being repossessed.

I love my job, I truly and honestly wouldn't want any other job in the world but the complete lack of job security is draining the life out of me.
Exactly what happened to my friend

1. Job loss 2010
2. Divorce in 2011
3. Short stole beach condo (purchased in 2007 for $600k. Short sell $320k)
4. Short stole primary home (purchased in 2004 for $500k short sold in 2012 for 340k)

But guess what. He's riding high. Unfreaking believable. He completely took advantage of the mortgage and loan forgiveness act of 2007-2013. He didn't owe a freaking dime.

That $500k primary home he purchased in 2004k. My homie took out a $250k home equity loan in 2006 at height of housing market.

Used 150k of home equity to pay off student loans. Used the other 100k to put in downpayment on beach condo in 2007.

I wish I could make this stuff up. But it's true. He not only escaped back taxes owed (because of mortgage forgiveness act). Since home equity paid off student loans. The home equity was forgiven as well. So he literally doesn't owe any loans.

And he still got job in same area as his kids and making 600-700k now doing pain (was doing cardiac).

Don't think people can't land on their feet. My buddy is Persian. Totally scammed the system legally.

(And he made 200k profit in 2004 selling his northeast downtown condo he got in 2001 at the beginning of the housing boom). And spent it all.

Lots of people got away with murder during recession. Don't think people know how to work the system.

He brought a foreclosure lake property at the bottom of the housing market in 2012 "hard cash" loan 50% downpayment owner financed. So he's looking pretty in 2015
 
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