"Arizona Republicans File Bill to Punish Abortion Doctors with the Death Penalty"

[Lawpy]

You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments, and you move goalposts. The more assumptions you have to make, the less solid your argument is.

Well my nephew managed to fool three different facilities into thinking he was rehabilitated before proceeding to continue using drugs and committing felonies. There are a number of examples of people being “rehabilitated” only to have them reoffend pretty quickly. I would be livid if one of my kids was assaulted by someone who was previously in prison for child rape and was let out.

I think psychiatrists won't be duped

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Prison?

And now you’re back to the original question. If there is nothing to deter people from murdering people in prison because nothing will happen to them, what is to stop them from doing it?

 

[TwistedTea]

But if we can’t guarantee every person executed is guilty, should we be executing anyone?

i hit the wrong button in my phone and accidentally quoted you. sorry.

im not really for death penalty except maybe in extreme 100 percent multi homocidal for sureness. even then i’d rather banish.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think psychiatrists won't be duped

Several of them were literally duped by a teenager.

 

[Mad Jack]

You keep making the same argument lol. My point is that just because something is done and people are generally okay with it isn’t a valid argument for it being done. Just repeating “it is what it is” isn’t a valid argument.

My point is that it's not a point even worth arguing, as the SCOTUS has already settled it multiple times. In a Republic, it is not the will of the majority but the laws of the Constitution which determine what is allowed. It wouldn't matter if we all thought it abhorrent, so long as the Constitution remained intact. The death penalty is stupid, archaic, costly, and generally a bad look. But in the grand scale of "things our country does and has done to murder people" it's not that grossly out of line, and therefore it is unlikely to change before we're all good and dead. It's as American as drone strikes, V8s, CIA coups, and apple pie. Maybe we'll live to see a day that Congress actually amends the Constitution and bans it, but it's one of those things I just don't have much fight in me for. There's just too many other important matters to deal with to get upset about something that no amount of screaming into the void will likely change.

 

[Lawpy]

i was talking about the judicial system in general not death penalty lol

Make the bar exam scored

 

[Mad Jack]

I think psychiatrists won't be duped

We're not mindreaders, no matter what the hospitalists and ER docs tell you

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My point is that it's not a point even worth arguing, as the SCOTUS has already settled it multiple times. In a Republic, it is not the will of the majority but the laws of the Constitution which determine what is allowed. It wouldn't matter if we all thought it abhorrent, so long as the Constitution remained intact. The death penalty is stupid, archaic, costly, and generally a bad look. But in the grand scale of "things our country does and has done to murder people" it's not that grossly out of line, and therefore it is unlikely to change before we're all good and dead. It's as American as drone strikes, V8s, CIA coups, and apple pie. Maybe we'll live to see a day that Congress actually amends the Constitution and bans it, but it's one of those things I just don't have much fight in me for. There's just too many other important matters to deal with to get upset about something that no amount of screaming into the void will likely change.

Fair enough.

 

[Lawpy]

Several of them were literally duped by a teenager.

What? That's depressing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Make the bar exam scored

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[TwistedTea]

Make the bar exam scored

that would be good. can we keep step scored too

 

[Lawpy]

We're not mindreaders, no matter what the hospitalists and ER docs tell you

So you can't easily spot the fakers?

 

[TwistedTea]

What does that have to do with anything?

i’m sure one of us could pass the bar given a few months of study time. considering that you can be close to brain dead and get into law school somewhere.

 

[Lawpy]

What does that have to do with anything?

And require more rotations. We need to ensure as high quality judges as possible

 

[TwistedTea]

And require more rotations. We need to ensure as high quality judges as possible

and pay cops more so actually smart people do the job. imagine paying a surgeon 30k per year do you think you’ll get the best and the brightest.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And require more rotations. We need to ensure as high quality judges as possible

In a lot of places you don’t even need to be a lawyer first to be a judge.

 

[TwistedTea]

In a lot of places you don’t even need to be a lawyer first to be a judge.

in a lot of places you don’t even need to be a doctor to be a doctor too

 

[Lawpy]

In a lot of places you don’t even need to be a lawyer first to be a judge.

Suddenly i'm against the death penalty even more

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

and pay cops more so actually smart people do the job. imagine paying a surgeon 30k per year do you think you’ll get the best and the brightest.

Right now a lot of places will discriminate against people who do really well on the civil service exam. When I was applying to police departments, I almost aced the test in multiple places and the only department that would hire me was the state police. They paid like 80k. The other places were local departments and paid much less. They assume people who score really well on the exam will go elsewhere.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Suddenly i'm against the death penalty even more

In most states where the death penalty is a possibility, the jury imposes the sentence, not the judge.

 

[Lawpy]

In most states where the death penalty is a possibility, the jury imposes the sentence, not the judge.

Thanks. This thread got too depressing for me now. I still didn't recover from the shock that psychiatrists can be duped. Need to think.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Thanks. This thread got too depressing for me now. I still didn't recover from the shock that psychiatrists can be duped. Need to think.

I mean, psychiatrists are just humans. Anyone can be duped. Especially by sociopaths lol.

 

[Lawpy]

I mean, psychiatrists are just humans. Anyone can be duped. Especially by sociopaths lol.

But what about prison psychiatrists?

 

[Mad Jack]

So you can't easily spot the fakers?

Some of them, yes, because some people are terrible liars. But human lie detectors don't exist, and some people are quite the actors. A big part of the problem is that most people that commit crimes aren't mentally ill, and psychiatrists are trained to spot mental illness. With regard to substance use, someone may be fine while they're clean and truly believe they'll turn over a new leaf until the cravings hit, and then they're back to square one. We can't tell you who is going to relapse, commit suicide, or commit crimes with much more certainty than any other person. People have devoted their lives to determining whether others are lying based on social cues in organizations like the CIA and FBI and their results are mostly garbage

The Junk Science Cops Use to Decide You’re Lying

Leaked documents detail law enforcement trainings in junk science lie detection techniques that have been discredited by scientists.

theintercept.com

The idea that a psychiatrist, by virtue of 4 years of treating mental illness in hospital and outpatient settings, plus or minus one year of forensics training, can tell whether criminals are lying is laughable. We get no training in it at all, and merely rely on intuition, experience, and risk factors like everyone else

 

[Type2Fiber]

It doesn't matter what pro lifers think. They just shouldn't force others to agree what they think and punish those who refuses to agree. Abortion bans are fundamentally authoritarian

I'm not interested in forcing anything. I think life begins at conception and I've made the case. Ideally enough people will be convinced to vote the way I vote

Being “pro-life” is the easiest position to take since it only requires outrage. There is no requisite to open your heart, home or pocketbook to have this position. All it takes is abusing the poorest people in our society then refusing to care once the child is born. It also provides a convenient veil for those wishing to support other awful but less socially acceptable “conservative” talking points. Hypocrites.

Ok, I’ll accept some people truly care about the longterm outcomes of people post-birth. However, many are what the original article describes: a bunch of authoritarian nutcases who want to execute doctors and women over a legitimate medical procedure. Say no to the American Taliban.

how embarrassing for you. complaining about the "American taliban" while trying to paint the other side as being fueled by outrage

 

[Lawpy]

I'm not interested in forcing anything. I think life begins at conception and I've made the case. Ideally enough people will be convinced to vote the way I vote




how embarrassing for you. complaining about the "American taliban" while trying to paint the other side as being fueled by outrage

I'm against all abortion bans and restrictions. You can be pro life without banning abortion

 

[Lawpy]

Some of them, yes, because some people are terrible liars. But human lie detectors don't exist, and some people are quite the actors. A big part of the problem is that most people that commit crimes aren't mentally ill, and psychiatrists are trained to spot mental illness. With regard to substance use, someone may be fine while they're clean and truly believe they'll turn over a new leaf until the cravings hit, and then they're back to square one. We can't tell you who is going to relapse, commit suicide, or commit crimes with much more certainty than any other person. People have devoted their lives to determining whether others are lying based on social cues in organizations like the CIA and FBI and their results are mostly garbage

The Junk Science Cops Use to Decide You’re Lying

Leaked documents detail law enforcement trainings in junk science lie detection techniques that have been discredited by scientists.

theintercept.com

The idea that a psychiatrist, by virtue of 4 years of treating mental illness in hospital and outpatient settings, plus or minus one year of forensics training, can tell whether criminals are lying is laughable. We get no training in it at all, and merely rely on intuition, experience, and risk factors like everyone else

What about sociopaths? Thats what killers and serial rapists are. Isn't that a type of mental illness?

 

[Mad Jack]

What about sociopaths? Thats what killers and serial rapists are. Isn't that a type of mental illness?

It's a personality disorder (ASPD typically), which is a culmination of maladaptive personality features and behaviors. By definition, those with personality disorders have features that are considered unchangeable. I can tell someone has antisocial personality disorder, but that tells me nothing about whether they will re-offend. There are plenty of people that would qualify as classic psychopaths or sociopaths in law, surgery, finance, and high-ranking government and corporate positions, for instance, that have learned to function in society without necessarily caring about the people around them. That doesn't mean they necessitate being locked up or that they will commit crimes.

A large percentage of people in prison have personality disorders, but many of those with such disorders will not reoffend because the consequences of their actions outweigh the short term benefit of a potential crime. That is basically the principle of deterrance. People with antisocial and narcissistic personalities care only about themselves, so you must make the punishment outweigh the gain of any potential criminal act. I can't judge someone's internal feelings with regard to whether they say "I don't ever want to be back in prison" any better than you can, nor can I predict whether these feelings, even if true at the time, would hold up to a harsh world in which they can't find employment and must forever live as a social pariah by virtue of their record.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

I'm not interested in forcing anything. I think life begins at conception and I've made the case. Ideally enough people will be convinced to vote the way I vote




how embarrassing for you. complaining about the "American taliban" while trying to paint the other side as being fueled by outrage

I’m not the one threatening to execute doctors for performing abortions.

Y’all would love Afghanistan: pro-gun, weak central government, extreme religious beliefs and definitely no abortions. Nice mountain views too.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m not the one threatening to execute doctors for performing abortions.

Y’all would love Afghanistan: pro-gun, weak central government, extreme religious beliefs and definitely no abortions. Nice mountain views too.

Let’s drop the hyperbole and ridiculous arguments please. Comparing someone pro-life to the Taliban is an absurd, intellectually lazy argument and just makes you look ridiculous.

Not everyone who is pro-life is calling for the execution of abortion doctors. That is a small number of people. There are just as many loonies that are pro-choice.

edit: to be clear, I’m saying this as a participant in the discussion, not a moderator—this isn’t a warning post

 

[Type2Fiber]

I'm against all abortion bans and restrictions. You can be pro life without banning abortion

you don't share my view that conception begins at life, but just for a second pretend you do. If the premise is that life begins at conception, would you really not be in favor of banning abortion? how would it be consistent to call yourself pro-life and not support banning what you believe to be murder

 

[Lawpy]

Let’s drop the hyperbole and ridiculous arguments please. Comparing someone pro-life to the Taliban is an absurd, intellectually lazy argument and just makes you look ridiculous.

Not everyone who is pro-life is calling for the execution of abortion doctors. That is a small number of people. There are just as many loonies that are pro-choice.

edit: to be clear, I’m saying this as a participant in the discussion, not a moderator—this isn’t a warning post

Wait why isn't assisted dying allowed?

 

[Lawpy]

you don't share my view that conception begins at life, but just for a second pretend you do. If the premise is that life begins at conception, would you really not be in favor of banning abortion? how would it be consistent to call yourself pro-life and not support banning what you believe to be murder

No. I think whether fetus is alive or has personhood is irrelevant. Mother's right to choose always beats fetus's right to live

 

[Mad Jack]

Let’s drop the hyperbole and ridiculous arguments please. Comparing someone pro-life to the Taliban is an absurd, intellectually lazy argument and just makes you look ridiculous.

Not everyone who is pro-life is calling for the execution of abortion doctors. That is a small number of people. There are just as many loonies that are pro-choice.

edit: to be clear, I’m saying this as a participant in the discussion, not a moderator—this isn’t a warning post

Anyone calling for the imprisonment of doctors for performing abortions or mothers for having them done is an extremist in my book. Advocating for reasonable changes to abortion laws is one thing, but I have zero tolerance for the "under no circumstances is abortion acceptable" crowd. There's a lot of perfectly good reasons for them to be performed, and in many cases they can save lives. Hardcore anti-abortion views are often just one part of a backwards, theocratic, misogynistic worldview that should be left in the pages of history

 

[Lawpy]

I'm against forced birth or delivery or waiting to full term. The choice belongs entirely to the mother

 

[curbsideconsult]

I find it interesting that the majority of the ones left debating on this thread are men.

 

[Lawpy]

I find it interesting that the majority of the ones left debating on this thread are men.

Yeah. I'm a guy with really strong prochoice views for that reason. It's not my business to decide what a woman should do with her body. I'm not the one bearing through 9 months of pain and physiological changes. Her body. Her choice. That's it

 

[SunBakedTrash]

Let’s drop the hyperbole and ridiculous arguments please. Comparing someone pro-life to the Taliban is an absurd, intellectually lazy argument and just makes you look ridiculous.

Not everyone who is pro-life is calling for the execution of abortion doctors. That is a small number of people. There are just as many loonies that are pro-choice.

edit: to be clear, I’m saying this as a participant in the discussion, not a moderator—this isn’t a warning post

Disagree. Adhere to my religious belief or be killed is straight up Taliban. I’m not saying you are implying that, but the authors of AZ house bill 2650 are. Give these sociopaths an inch and they will take a mile. Their horrid beliefs should absolutely be condemned even by those who don’t like the idea of abortion. Regardless, it has been shown that the best way to reduce elective abortion is to solve underlying inequalities and provide evidence-based medical education, not restrict the practice. Of course, these clowns in AZ have no interest in that, they just want to scream like the whiny snowflakes they are.

 

[Lawpy]

Abolish death penalty! End all abortion bans and restrictions!

 

[Type2Fiber]

No. I think whether fetus is alive or has personhood is irrelevant. Mother's right to choose always beats fetus's right to live

personhood is irrelevant? that is vile. you can disagree about when life starts, but just straight up saying life doesn't matter leads to terrible places very quickly

 

[Lawpy]

personhood is irrelevant? that is vile. you can disagree about when life starts, but just straight up saying life doesn't matter leads to terrible places very quickly

No it doesn't. The problem with the personhood argument is it's used to shame and force the woman to carry the pregnancy to birth when she doesn't want to. That is vile

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Disagree. Adhere to my religious belief or be killed is straight up Taliban. I’m not saying you are implying that, but the authors of AZ house bill 2650 are. Give these sociopaths an inch and they will take a mile. Their horrid beliefs should absolutely be condemned even by those who don’t like the idea of abortion. Regardless, it has been shown that the best way to reduce elective abortion is to solve underlying inequalities and provide evidence-based medical education, not restrict the practice. Of course, these clowns in AZ have no interest in that, they just want to scream like the whiny snowflakes they are.

Okay so you’re a little more discriminating here. I agree that the writers of that bill have draconian beliefs and should be called out by everyone, including those who are pro-life.

But as you said, that is them. The vast majority of pro-life people, even the ones who think abortion should be illegal, do not want to see doctors executed.

 

[Mad Jack]

personhood is irrelevant? that is vile. you can disagree about when life starts, but just straight up saying life doesn't matter leads to terrible places very quickly

Oh look at that slippery slope fallacy

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Anyone calling for the imprisonment of doctors for performing abortions or mothers for having them done is an extremist in my book. Advocating for reasonable changes to abortion laws is one thing, but I have zero tolerance for the "under no circumstances is abortion acceptable" crowd. There's a lot of perfectly good reasons for them to be performed, and in many cases they can save lives. Hardcore anti-abortion views are often just one part of a backwards, theocratic, misogynistic worldview that should be left in the pages of history

Yes that’s fine. I agree. His first post did not separate these lunatics from the rest of us. He literally said it about all pro-life folks.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I find it interesting that the majority of the ones left debating on this thread are men.

I think that is probably more due to the excessively long debate about the death penalty than anything else.

Or are you arguing that men can’t have an opinion on abortion? Also, almost every man on this thread is either pro-choice or not anti-choice.

 

[sunshinefl]

No, the death penalty is a terrible deterrent. Also prison guards aren't always good. How could you tell between self defense vs intentional murder? What if the criminal wanting to kill prison guards wants to die?

The first sentence was the point but i was also loosely trying to show prison guards aren't always good

I was a correctional officer and sergeant for 7 years. No they aren’t always good. But not good doesn’t equal should die.

In a pure discussion of ideals and virtues a criminal reform system that condones execution makes things worse for us all. Some people are beyond help and likely as close to material evil as we can get outside of stories and religion. Killing them probably doesn't end it because the source is still there and we did not learn anything about it.

Interestingly, one of my residency interviews was the aPD being fascinated with hearing about prison from me. He asked me basically how many inmates I met who I believed were simply beyond reform. In my 7 years in prison security + 3 years in prison nursing, Among thousands and thousands of state inmates across multiple prisons, i probably met 5 who were what I would consider truly evil.

When you believe there is an intangible soul it is difficult to disagree with life at conception. I'm not so ignorant to not recognize the moral dilemma one must go through on a personal level.
Where I draw my line is why a personal religious struggle must become my personal problem.

I’m not even religious. But ethically I think a unique life is created at conception, worthy of surviving. (Because of this I recognize that some may say then that personhood begins at the end of twinning possibility, but I think that the asterisk there means that it’s just possible 2 unique lives were created.)

They shouldn't be sentenced to death. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished.

as stated previously, I am against the death penalty.

Right of mother to choose always beats the right of fetus to "live". That's the one position i'll always take, force or not

From the outside, yes. I am just asking the mother to take give the fetus some regard and make a thoughtful choice.

How do you punish someone for murder who is already serving life in prison?

By adding another sentence, relocation to different cell/higher security prison with more guards available to restrain

I don’t know about other states, but Florida has prison within the prison. If inmates can’t adapt to prison society and continue to violate prison norms and others rights, they are sentenced in a prison court to differing levels of prison within prison for differing lengths defined by offense.

So your punishment for someone who took another person’s life and who is serving a life sentence and already will never get out of prison is to tell them they’re not going to get out of prison even longer? That’s like saying infinity plus one. I’d love to see you tell the family of the prison guard that your punishment for their mom or dad’s murderer is to “add more time to their sentence.”

It’s not “longer” it’s harder prison. Believe it or not there is still a lot to lose within prison society. Mail, visitation, canteen, TV time, games, rec time, socialization with other inmates, library, church, jobs, training, freedom of movement, etc.

Sure i'll tell them, i have no problems with that. Death penalty is a garbage answer for this. Transfering to max security prison with limited contact is better

Yes as I said above there is in fact other means of punishment in prison besides death.

Lol wow. That is unbelievable that you’d have zero problems telling my kid that you’re not going to do anything about the person who murdered me. That is some next level indifference.

Also, there is a fairly convincing body of evidence that solitary or mostly solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment. So you aren’t okay with killing them, but you’re okay with subjecting them to cruel and unusual punishment for life?

Again, in my state because of this, the prison within the prison has rules to mitigate the effects of the varying levels of confinement. Include mental health evals, confinement rec time, etc.

But solitary confinement is argued by many to be cruel and unusual, as it has real and lasting psychiatric and physical sequelae. You’re okay with subjecting someone to cruel and unusual punishment for the rest of their life?

As above

I personally take issue with painting everyone who is pro-life as some sort of abuser of the poor or woman hater. My wife and I are very pro-life, but we would never judge a woman who got an abortion for any reason, nor would we judge anyone who performs them. It’s not man’s job to judge. Even if I think abortion is murder (and I don’t up to a point), I’m not God. I’m not here to condemn anyone.

I know a lot of pro-life people who think this way. Pro-life does not automatically mean anti-choice.

Those people aren’t pro-life, they’re anti-choice.

Pro-life and anti-choice are different. I will admit that many people who claim to be the former are really the latter. But just like not everyone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion, not everyone who is pro-life wants to control women.

Yes thank you. I’ve never phrased it this way because I’ve never heard the term. I am pro life, not anti choice.

What % of pro life is anti choice?

Not sure. The people trying to make this law from the OP obviously.

Right, but how many innocent people being executed is acceptable? Is it better to execute some tolerable amount of innocent people or not execute anyone so that no one innocent is killed?

Zero. Literally none.

“That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.”

But if we can’t guarantee every person executed is guilty, should we be executing anyone?

Still not. It’s just even worse since we can’t guarantee.

And now you’re back to the original question. If there is nothing to deter people from murdering people in prison because nothing will happen to them, what is to stop them from doing it?

Again, as I said above, there is still much to lose to make prison life much much much worse than just a small functioning society separated from your family.

Wait why isn't assisted dying allowed?

It is in some places. I think it’s ethically good because a person can choice to decrease their own suffering.

No. I think whether fetus is alive or has personhood is irrelevant. Mother's right to choose always beats fetus's right to live

It should be relevant to the mother while making her choice.

I find it interesting that the majority of the ones left debating on this thread are men.

I’m a woman. I was just sleeping, and then not on SDN.

No it doesn't. The problem with the personhood argument is it's used to shame and force the woman to carry the pregnancy to birth when she doesn't want to. That is vile

You can’t take away the personhood from the fetus just to feel better about what you’re doing. That is vile.

 

[Lawpy]

I was a correctional officer and sergeant for 7 years. No they aren’t always good. But not good doesn’t equal should die.

Interestingly, one of my residency interviews was the aPD being fascinated with hearing about prison from me. He asked me basically how many inmates I met who I believed were simply beyond reform. In my 7 years in prison security + 3 years in prison nursing, Among thousands and thousands of state inmates across multiple prisons, i probably met 5 who were what I would consider truly evil.

I’m not even religious. But ethically I think a unique life is created at conception, worthy of surviving. (Because of this I recognize that some may say then that personhood begins at the end of twinning possibility, but I think that the asterisk there means that it’s just possible 2 unique lives were created.)


as stated previously, I am against the death penalty.

From the outside, yes. I am just asking the mother to take give the fetus some regard and make a thoughtful choice.


I don’t know about other states, but Florida has prison within the prison. If inmates can’t adapt to prison society and continue to violate prison norms and others rights, they are sentenced in a prison court to differing levels of prison within prison for differing lengths defined by offense.

It’s not “longer” it’s harder prison. Believe it or not there is still a lot to lose within prison society. Mail, visitation, canteen, TV time, games, rec time, socialization with other inmates, library, church, jobs, training, freedom of movement, etc.

Yes as I said above there is in fact other means of punishment in prison besides death.

Again, in my state because of this, the prison within the prison has rules to mitigate the effects of the varying levels of confinement. Include mental health evals, confinement rec time, etc.

As above



Yes thank you. I’ve never phrased it this way because I’ve never heard the term. I am pro life, not anti choice.

Not sure. The people trying to make this law from the OP obviously.

Zero. Literally none.

“That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.”

Still not. It’s just even worse since we can’t guarantee.

Again, as I said above, there is still much to lose to make prison life much much much worse than just a small functioning society separated from your family.

It is in some places. I think it’s ethically good because a person can choice to decrease their own suffering.

It should be relevant to the mother while making her choice.

I’m a woman. I was just sleeping, and then not on SDN.

You can’t take away the personhood from the fetus just to feel better about what you’re doing. That is vile.

I support the giant sunshiny post wall 🐶

 

[Lawpy]

You can’t take away the personhood from the fetus just to feel better about what you’re doing. That is vile.

So i should clarify the pro lifers here were mostly dudes, and i was indirectly telling them to get lost and not interfere in a woman's decision as an unrelated 3rd party.

But female prolifers, such as you? That i have full respect and can completely understand your reasons.

So yeah, i agree with much of your replies including this one. A woman should always make an informed decision and especially take the personhood of the fetus into account before making a serious decision about something like an abortion.

But a bunch of antichoice guys wanting to push for abortion bans? They can go to hell. Sorry but not sorry

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I was a correctional officer and sergeant for 7 years. No they aren’t always good. But not good doesn’t equal should die.

Interestingly, one of my residency interviews was the aPD being fascinated with hearing about prison from me. He asked me basically how many inmates I met who I believed were simply beyond reform. In my 7 years in prison security + 3 years in prison nursing, Among thousands and thousands of state inmates across multiple prisons, i probably met 5 who were what I would consider truly evil.

I’m not even religious. But ethically I think a unique life is created at conception, worthy of surviving. (Because of this I recognize that some may say then that personhood begins at the end of twinning possibility, but I think that the asterisk there means that it’s just possible 2 unique lives were created.)


as stated previously, I am against the death penalty.

From the outside, yes. I am just asking the mother to take give the fetus some regard and make a thoughtful choice.


I don’t know about other states, but Florida has prison within the prison. If inmates can’t adapt to prison society and continue to violate prison norms and others rights, they are sentenced in a prison court to differing levels of prison within prison for differing lengths defined by offense.

It’s not “longer” it’s harder prison. Believe it or not there is still a lot to lose within prison society. Mail, visitation, canteen, TV time, games, rec time, socialization with other inmates, library, church, jobs, training, freedom of movement, etc.

Yes as I said above there is in fact other means of punishment in prison besides death.

Again, in my state because of this, the prison within the prison has rules to mitigate the effects of the varying levels of confinement. Include mental health evals, confinement rec time, etc.

As above



Yes thank you. I’ve never phrased it this way because I’ve never heard the term. I am pro life, not anti choice.

Not sure. The people trying to make this law from the OP obviously.

Zero. Literally none.

“That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.”

Still not. It’s just even worse since we can’t guarantee.

Again, as I said above, there is still much to lose to make prison life much much much worse than just a small functioning society separated from your family.

It is in some places. I think it’s ethically good because a person can choice to decrease their own suffering.

It should be relevant to the mother while making her choice.

I’m a woman. I was just sleeping, and then not on SDN.

You can’t take away the personhood from the fetus just to feel better about what you’re doing. That is vile.

All great comments. Didn’t think about the prison within prison type stuff. I actually do not support the death penalty, specifically because 1) we can’t guarantee 100% that they are not falsely convicted and 2) it isn’t our place to take a life except in self defense or the defense of others.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So i should clarify the pro lifers here were mostly dudes, and i was indirectly telling them to get lost and not interfere in a woman's decision as an unrelated 3rd party.

But female prolifers, such as you? That i have full respect and can completely understand your reasons.

So yeah, i agree with much of your replies including this one. A woman should always make an informed decision and especially take the personhood of the fetus into account before making a serious decision about something like an abortion.

But a bunch of antichoice guys wanting to push for abortion bans? They can go to hell. Sorry but not sorry

What? Like almost every guy in this thread is pro-choice or pro-life but not anti-choice. Of the people who are pro-life, I think there is like a single person who is anti-choice.

And no, being a man does not make your argument on abortion invalid. It’s not intellectually honest to say men who disagree with me have no argument, but the ones who do are okay. Either they all do or they all don’t.