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Army National Guard's new Med student program details.

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by EMH, Jul 31, 2008.

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  1. eflix

    eflix

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    Looks like TA may be ineligible for all med students now, not just those with masters degrees if that's any consolation.

    "In addition to degree programs, TA is available to Soldiers to complete a high school diploma and to complete certificate programs. However, TA will not be approved to complete credentials at the same or a lower educational level. TA is not authorized for programs beyond a master's degree."

    https://www.goarmyed.com/public/public_money_for_college-tuition_assistance.aspx
  2. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor

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    Ouch. That would be a bummer. Funny how quickly funding and benefits change. We went from ASR (and nearly getting post-9/11 GI Benefits at that) to fighting for FTA...
  3. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    This will be interesting to see and very semantic. An M.D. is not technically beyond an master's (as a Ph.D. is). Be curious to see how this is interpreted.

    This is sort of fitting the strategy we've talked about for years though: cut benefits to folks you don't need (i.e.: med students and residents) and focus incentives on those you do (like BE/BC physicians). This is bound to continue.
  4. ayushman80

    ayushman80

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    Anyone know who the new asr coordinator will be? Isn't the current one changing?
  5. TooMuchResearch

    TooMuchResearch i'm goin' to Kathmandu... Lifetime Donor

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    I read that as anyone starting medical school with only an undergraduate degree is still eligible. Those coming in with advanced degrees may be out of luck.
  6. jkmph

    jkmph Non ducor, duco

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    This is how it was explained to me. An MD/DO degree is equivalent to a Masters in the eyes of the military.
  7. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Safe to say it will have almost no impact on your life, no? I literally had zero contact with the ASR Coordinator (and have no idea who it was) for the 2-1/2 years I was in the program...
  8. learnmore

    learnmore ASA Member

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    With September 1st fast approaching I am a bit embarrassed as a 4th year to still be trying to figure out what I'm doing with the rest of my life.... I've always had a strong interest in anesthesiology, but as I understand it, I will have to transition from the Guard to the Reserve once I begin residency.

    On paper, the Guard and Reserve seem mostly equivalent, but I vaguely recall learning something at OBLC that made me glad I was NOT in the Reserve. It had to do with PROFIS, and the fact that Reserve docs were more likely to be deployed on a regular basis with ANY unit in the country whereas NG docs typically only deployed with their own home unit. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find this distinction affirmed definitively anywhere online.

    Also, I was told by an Reserve recruiter that although the Reserve doesn't have "Flex-training" per se, I did not have to worry about drill requirements disrupting residency requirements... obviously I would like to find some confirmation for that claim as well.

    Anyone else facing the possibility of transitioning to the Reserve?
  9. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    Can't you get stuck in a field surg slot as an anesthesiologist?
  10. TooMuchResearch

    TooMuchResearch i'm goin' to Kathmandu... Lifetime Donor

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    I'm curious about this, too. I thought any ARNG doc could grab a 62B spot.
  11. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Nope. Almost any doc can fill a Field Surgeon or Flight surgeon slot. The exceptions are Anesthesiology, Nuc Med, Radiology, Psych, or Pathology.

    There are very, very few allocated slots for these specialties (if any for several of them). Psych has the out of being able to fulfill 67D (Behavioral Sciences, a much more common slot), but for the others, if you don't have a slot in your field, you're off to the Reserve.
  12. chenquistador

    chenquistador

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    This is good news in the midst of bad news. I hope the FTA stays at 4500. For at least another year or two(or three) ::crosses fingers::

    Subsidized loans are also no more for professional and graduate degrees starting in 2012. The government is hacking away at us from every angle. I seriously hope these taxpayer dollars will be going to the right places...
  13. TheWholeTooth

    TheWholeTooth

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    I've been trying to keep an eye out for information on Post-9/11 and ASR, so the *nearly* makes me :(. What have you heard about that?
  14. jkmph

    jkmph Non ducor, duco

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    Well ASR was bound to fail from it's inception. A completely fundamentally flawed program for the military in terms of retention and "bang for the buck". The true crime is people like me who were just a day late and a buck short and got stuck with MDSSP and the like.
  15. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor

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    The official word on that went out awhile ago. I'll check my e-mails to see if I can find it. We do not qualify for it (and if we're honest, rightfully so).



    I still can't decide if ASR was a lapse in judgement or was less about recruiting and more about putting together a street team. Talking to me is usually the first time a person has even thought about what the Guard has to offer medical students, residents, and physicians...

    Edit:

    From [ http://www.gibill.va.gov/benefits/post_911_gibill/Post911_changes.html ] :

    "Expands the Post-9/11 GI Bill to include Active Service performed by National Guard members under title 32 U.S.C. for the purpose of organizing, administering, recruiting, instructing, or training the National Guard; or under section 502(f) for the purpose of responding to a national emergency."

    From a FAQ in one of my e-mails:

    Question: Does Title 32 ADOS qualify for the Post 9/11?
    Answer: No, currently only Title 32 AGRs "for the purpose of organizing, administering, recruiting, instructing or training" or "activations in support of a national emergency under section 502(f)" qualify for the Post 9/11.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2011
  16. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Yeah, I've seen this. What is interesting is that according to the language of the law and the VA, we should qualify. The only mention of the Post-9/11 GI Bill only being given to AGRs is from the Guard itself. Interesting.
  17. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Where's the crime? You bought a nice Chevy when friends of yours bought Ferrari's. But no one made you buy the car. It's silly being bitter about it.

    I have a hunch that the $250K HPLRP will not be around in that amount by the time I start using it, but I'm not going to feel "robbed" by that because no one's making me stay in. If I don't like it, I won't take it. It's a perk that's year to year, so I know I'm not being promised anything.
  18. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor

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    I've considered just trying to apply for it and seeing what happens...
  19. Mr. Freeze

    Mr. Freeze Not right. (in the head)

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    I think the crime for ASR is on the other end; a bean counter in the gubmint thought they were getting Ferraris and instead got a bunch of Kias that only last a few years and get out before they are deployable. But maybe a few stay. Whatever. And prior service ASR's? Awwww yeah, that was so wrong I couldn't sign up FAST ENOUGH! I smoked a BIG cigarette after ****ing 'em like they did me the first time around. Can you FEEL THAT!?!?!

    I may be wrong but I don't think every Reserve MC officer is subject to PROFIS. There is a LARGE portion of docs assigned to the APMC, which is essentially a pool of talent that they can draw from to fill billets. Look into the perks of this, because I almost transferred from NG to USAR because of it and the differences in the missions of each.

    Also subject to incorrectness, but I don't think being a Guard doc precludes you from deploying with a bunch of people in a strange unit. BOG policies what they are, you aren't gonna sync up with the OPTEMPO of your unit and your unit alone. Granted, being a surgical subspecialist in a CWS field, I will get churned a couple times faster than most...
  20. armyguy12

    armyguy12

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    Could use some assistance and you guys seem to know what's going on with current policy. I'm a junior working on my undergrad. My gpa is good and I'm confident I'll be able to get into med school once I'm finished. I'm also in ROTC. Prior to that I was in the Reserves and am in the process now of switching to the Guard. ROTC isn't paying anything towards my undergrad. I'm basically doing it just to get a commission. After deciding I want to attend med school after I finish my Bachelors, I'm thinking I should get out of ROTC. It takes up all my time. My question is, if I continue ROTC, commission as an MP Officer in the Guard, then attend med school and attempt to obtain Guard benefits from being a med student, won't I incur a crazy service obligation ? It will be 6 years obligation from rotc, then however many years for whatever program I can get into once I'm a med student.

    Input is much appreciated.
  21. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    To be a reservist assigned to APMC, you also need to be living more than 75 (?) miles from the nearest Reserve unit, which apparently excludes lots of folks.
    This is true. Most Guard docs I know of who deployed did so as augmentees to other medical units, not with their home unit.
  22. infirmarydude

    infirmarydude

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    so applied mid may... after much back and forth.. swearing in is estimated for October... ahhh... was looking forward to this but of course getting butterflies now...

    anyone else have similar experience?

    also - any non-ASR NG people here with any advice/comments in general or specific about experiences??

    also - as of now... surgery (specifically vascular) seems to be my goal... i wonder how much the guard will interfere with joining a practice..

    one more question - are we protected from deployment during fellowships?

    thanks
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  23. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Realistically, joining a small practice is not going to be do-able, but you can still join larger medical groups. So you're limited, but how much of that depends on your professional goals.
    No. Deployment during fellowship is determined on a "case-by-case basis." That said, from docs I've talked to, many were given the right of first refusal for deployment orders if they had a valid reason. I know two docs who were asked to deploy just as they joined practices and the Guard allowed them to put it off for a year and take the next one.
  24. FFMedic

    FFMedic

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    I've got a few questions. As some of the others have stated, this thread started quite some time ago and I want to make sure I have current information. I hope I'm not repeating any information here as I've tried to read and searched throughout the military forums, but again, much info is old.

    A little info about myself... I'm a 25 y/o m married with a wife who stays home to care for our only son (3 mo old). I'm currently a firefighter/EMT with 3 years experience and just over halfway through paramedic school (95% cumulative GPA). I'm wanting to go to med school, but trying to figure out how I'm going to finance it. I'm anticipating starting in 2013 at the earliest as I have some science courses I need to take. I have a BS (Crisis and Disaster Management 3.58) and MS (Occupational Safety Management 3.45), however, they are not science based. I'd love to serve my country, but am not looking forward to a long term commitment.

    The way I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong, through the HPSP program, you serve 1 year for every year of med school (school of your choice). Residency counts towards that pay back, however, you have to go to a military school for that residency to count. You could do residency wherever you choose, but would still have to serve the number of years they paid for med school. You can't be deployed while in med school or residency. This program seems great, however, it seems that you are active duty and subject to relocation and limited to the needs of the military. It also seems that the Army has the best options for medical schools etc.

    Another program I've seen mentioned is the ASR through the Army National Guard. I believe this would be a better fit for my family and I as I don't want to relocate. However, it does not appear this program is available any more. Is there anything comparable to this or is the HPSP the best route for a potential MD student?

    Any other thoughts about funding med school through military vs personal funding/loans? It would seem that one could make more money on the civilian side in a shorter time period and simply pay back the loans thus avoiding major commitments and obligations to the military. I am considering a state school and my tuition would be approximately $29,000 annually. Therefore, I'm not sure that the commitment to the military and strain on family life would be worth it. At time of application for med school, I'll have a house, spouse, and son with only one income of approximately $35,000. I'm sure I'll be eligible for FAFSA. I'm actually considering quitting my job which is why I am even considering the military to provide an income, benefits, and funding for my family and school.

    Many thanks and apologies for any repetition.

    Thanks to all who have served.

    EDIT - I just found that there's other programs with loan repayment/forgiveness available as well; http://nhsc.bhpr.hrsa.gov/ and http://services.aamc.org/fed_loan_p...=1b8c62d-e7f68df2-46e2-400b-96e2-983fc851b4f5 offer such programs. Appears this may be a better offer for someone than what the military may provide for someone with a family.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  25. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    HPSP is 1:1 in that you owe back as many years active duty as you took in medical school. You can apply for civilian residency, but they usually do not allow it and you need to do a military residency, which is also 1:1 payback, but you pay your medical school obligation and residency obligation back at the same time (so you would owe 4 year for 4 years of HPSP in medical school if you do a 3 or 4 year residency, but you would owe 6 years on a 6 year residency).

    Anyway, there's a great FAQ on HPSP you should read on this site. This thread isn't really a good place to go into detail.
    Correct, ASR has not been around for the past couple of years. The Guard and Army Reserve have MDSSP and STRAP. You can google them or even do a search in this thread, as we have explained what they are and what their commitments are several times in this thread alone. Basically, they give $2k/month, but you owe a 2:1 payback on them after residency. Long time, but it is Reserve time, so you still have a civilian practice.
    Abso-friggin-lutely. Do not sign up for the money. You can always pay back your loans on a civilian paycheck and accelerate that with moonlighting and whatnot that would be much more lucrative than drill pay.
    NHSC is a great program, but you're limited to primary care specialties. A majority of folks enter medical school wanting to do primary care and a majority change their mind. With NHSC, you're stuck.
  26. FFMedic

    FFMedic

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    Thanks for the reply. I overlooked the FAQs (not sure how). Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I'll probably just stay civilian since that's best for my family. Hopefully my wife doesn't have a heart attack. She already thinks I'm crazy for how much schooling I put myself through.
  27. TheWholeTooth

    TheWholeTooth

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    Re: GI Bill

    Thanks for finding that, Dead Cactus. And I'm with you -- may as well apply, see what happens. The VA can always say no.
  28. eflix

    eflix

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    If we're talking about the same thing, I've been getting the GI bill for a while now after I finished OBLC. 337$/month so far. You do have to verify monthly enrollment online and jump through some hoops, but not too bad.
  29. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor

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    No, that's the Reserve GI Bill.

    The post-9/11 GI Bill became available to Title 32 folks and there was hope of it applying to those on AD through ASR. The post 9/11 GI Bill is 36 months of tuition + housing allowance. There are some hoops to make it useful to a resident or physician (potentially transfer to a spouse/child or claim it at certain approved residency programs to collect only the housing allowance), but it was worth tens of thousands of dollars in benefits.

    Personally, I've decided to hold off on using my Reserve GI Bill because the $350/month now isn't worth the chance of claiming an AD GI Bill if they change the rules to include us or if a deployment down the road makes me eligible. As far as I know, you only get 36 months of GI Bill benefits and it doesn't matter if you use them up through the Reserve GI Bill or the 9/11 GI Bill...
  30. DaSein77

    DaSein77

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    Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm an ASR and quite interested in Pathology, am I bound to be transferred to the Reserves if I do a Path residency? if so, what does that really mean (I.e. What's gonna be the main difference from staying in the Guard?)
  31. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Yes. I don't know of any path slots in the National Guard (check with your state, though) and you're ineligible to be a Field Surgeon, so you'd likely transfer to the Reserve.
    Instead of under federal control, you're under state control. From talking to reservists, that has more social implications. You don't have as close contact with the folks who own your paper and whatnot. You're a much smaller fish in a much larger pond.

    On the upside, if you go to residency in an area more than 75 miles (I think that's the number) from an Army Reserve drill center, you can do your time in the APMC (google in), in which you barely drill at all. This is a big plus to the Reserve if you're looking to minimize your interaction with the military.

    You'll learn more as you get closer. Definitely don't let the Guard/Reserve play much of a role in residency choice. Go with the field in which you'd be happiest.
  32. DaSein77

    DaSein77

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    That's pretty much my plan regardless.

    Does the non-deployment policy during residency still apply while in the Reserves? Thanks...really appreciate the info
  33. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    The policy doc concerning non-deployment during residency covered the entire Army Reserve Corps (which includes Army Reserve and National Guard).

    But good to ask that question. Everything discussed on this thread concerned the Guard; always ask before you assume it's applicable to the Reserve as well. 95% of the time it will be, but you're smart to verify.
  34. MsTaco

    MsTaco

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    So I have a question that seems to be more or less the opposite of what everyone is worrying about....what if we WANT to deploy during med school? I am a 00E67, and of course was reassured over and over again when I joined that I was totally useless to the army as a student and thus I could never be called up while in school. The reason for my recent radical change of heart RE deployments is I just found about the Cultural Support Teams (http://www.soc.mil/SWCS/CST/about.html) and I reeeeeaaally would like to take a year off from med school and do this. The CST requires a year long commitment, including a 9 month deployment. My school is ridiculously flexible about time off, so the issue is not there...I just would like to know if the 00E67 designation would make me ineligible and whether there's any way around that if so. I also took MDSSP, so I have a contract there...not sure how deploying would affect that. Does anyone know whether I'd be eligible to do this while in med school, and if not, when?
  35. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Doubt it, you're not MOS qualified. Send them an email, but having zero training, I doubt you'd qualify.
    You're Guard, right? This looks like an active program.

    Besides which, you'll need to payback your MDSSP responsibilities as a physician before you could try to do work in the Army not as a physician. Given that you're taking 4 years MDSSP, you wouldn't really have that ability until 8 years after you finish residency, right?
  36. jkmph

    jkmph Non ducor, duco

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    Anyone know what the reimbursement cap is for first time uniform supplies (ACU, PT, etc)?
  37. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Heh, heh, heh... That one may be moot. I'm churning on three years and never got reimbursed uniform expenses despite submitting the paperwork when I joined, at BOLC, and after.

    Regardless, you'll likely spend way beyond the "reimbursement", which I think is in the neighborhood of $500-600.
  38. bbull

    bbull

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    I'm currently a 3rd year USIMG from SGU doing rotations. I'm not so much interested in MDSSP, and I think it's restricted to US schools anyways, but later down the line I may be interested in STRAP and HPLRP. Will my IMG status affect eligibility? If I were to join ANG now, can I still be under the student physician MOS with deployment protection during school and residency or is that reserved for MDSSP?
  39. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Shouldn't. Once you're in residency in the U.S., you should be good.
    deployment protection is for folks under the med student MOS and those in residency. Your only issue would be if you didn't match. You would then no longer have a med student MOS and could theoretically be deployable.

    Are most of your U.S. rotations going to be in the same state?
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  40. bbull

    bbull

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    I anticipate so, my 3rd year is all booked in NJ and a lot of our hospitals tend to be in the NJ/NY area.
  41. TheWholeTooth

    TheWholeTooth

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    Anyone have trouble applying for the GI Bill? The student vet office at my school says I need a DD214 (I'm still on active duty orders for ASR, and will be until 31DEC2012). My unit says they can't give me a DD214 until I've completed my service. My unit is usually wrong about every piece of paperwork, though. Anyone have experience with this? What did you need to get the GI Bill?
  42. jkmph

    jkmph Non ducor, duco

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    I know this doesn't answer your question, but who is eligible for the GI bill?
  43. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    I'm not sure why you're going to your student vet office for the GI Bill. You need to first apply for GI Bill eligibility through the VA.

    That said, they ask for a DD214. And your unit is right: a DD214 is given only after you leave active service.

    Go to the GI Bill website and call the help number. Prepare to be on hold for about 15 minutes, but the operators are really helpful. Explain your situation and they'll sort it out.
  44. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Yeah, that's the better question.

    I finished my ASR service with a little over two years and applied for the Post-9/11 GI Bill and was turned down. Word from on high is that ASRs will not be eligible for the Post-9/11 GI Bill, that it will only be applied to Title 32 time for folks who were on AGR orders, not folks on ADSW orders (which we were/are on ASR).

    I've filed an appeal. I'll let you know what I hear. If we're not eligible for Post-9/11, we should be eligible for VEAP (sp?), the one that pays out roughly $350/month. I know folks have gotten that.
  45. TheWholeTooth

    TheWholeTooth

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    Oooooh, snap!

    Did that. There's a leak in my GI Bill hose somewhere, and I'm casting the net as widely as possible for help: the VA help line, this forum, the office on campus whose entire job it is to help servicemembers.

    Then the VA man I talked to this morning was wrong. He told me to get one for each fiscal year of service. This is a frustrating process.
  46. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,276
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 10+ Year Member
    Yep, he's wrong. You get a DD214 when you leave active service. In fact, the name of the DD214, shown on the top of the form is "Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty."

    Maybe he's thinking of another form you can get to show your active service, but it isn't the DD214.
  47. J-Rad

    J-Rad Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2003
    Messages:
    3,536
    Location:
    With my Children Of The Corn
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Physician SDN 10+ Year Member
  48. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,276
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 10+ Year Member
  49. harvardslacker

    harvardslacker

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2008
    Messages:
    30
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Same here. I just re-submitted the paperwork, with BOLC long behind me, but I'm not optimistic.
  50. lepetit

    lepetit

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    62
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    hey guys, long time!

    had a quick question if you wouldn't mind. i'm signed up for the BOLC in june of next year (anyone else in the crowd?) but one of my really good friends in college is getting married during the time i'm in training, and i really don't want to miss his wedding. is there an alternative time to do my BOLC training if not during the summer of M1? i wanted to do a research job near home but having BOLC in the middle of summer too (and not right at the end of M1 year) is putting a dent on what I wanted to get accomplished.

    any insights into this/tips would be appreciated :)

    thanks!

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