Best Do schools for competitive specialties (IM +Fellowship, Get Surgery)?

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Jack-Kennedy35

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Hey Guys,

What DO schools would you say have particularly high match rates for competitive residencies and beyond? I’m personally interested in internal medicine along with a cardiology fellowship and I would love to apply to DO schools that would give me the best opportunity towards this future!

Also can someone clarify the competitiveness of doing a regular IM, and an IM with a fellowship after? A lot of people saying IM is easy to match into, but the later option seems to involve an entirely separate type of IM residency.

Thanks!

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KCUMB seems to be matching well lately. All the older schools are likely a safe bet. The key to going in to cardiology is matching into a higher tier IM program, generally a university program and preferably one with an affiliated cards fellowship. You can do this from any DO school if you can get high USMLE scores (note that this matters more than Comlex), research, good LORs, good performance on Aways etc. It will be easier to accomplish at older programs with regional ties to university programs, infrastructure for research, established clinical rotations. Go MD if you can.
 
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Hey Guys,

What DO schools would you say have particularly high match rates for competitive residencies and beyond? I’m personally interested in internal medicine along with a cardiology fellowship and I would love to apply to DO schools that would give me the best opportunity towards this future!

Also can someone clarify the competitiveness of doing a regular IM, and an IM with a fellowship after? A lot of people saying IM is easy to match into, but the later option seems to involve an entirely separate type of IM residency.

Thanks!

IM at strong, university hospitals are competitive because it allows residents to become exceptional applicants for fellowship by having strong subspecialty departments (usually in the way of exceptional researcher investigators). So anyone who is wanting to do fellowship is funneling into these places, from day 1 these residents associate themselves with the fellows and do as much research with them as possible. These bigger places also usually have strong statistician departments to run and analyze data quickly. IM at the ivory towers (Boston, Penn, Columbia, Yale) will have all of the previously listed x10, with huge names in the field where letters of rec are prob far reaching.

It is easy to match IM at smaller places, every year there are vacancies in IM to many of these programs. When you do IM at a small community hospital, there are no in-house fellowships, there is very little research, and letters from subspecialists here do not carry as much as weight since they do not have a formal academic title (professor, program director). Not saying it's bad or that if you come from a small program that you can't match, but the opportunity to stay connected and involved is a much harder process this way, and subspecialties become more of a tight-knit group where who you know can really matter.

The majority of DO schools lack any teaching hospital. Most DO students get their first taste of academic medicine at a university hospital in fourth year, where MD students have already been able to establish repertoire with their IM department with both residents and faculty, and many have already started/completed projects in the subspecialty they are interested in. It can set DO students back a bit. But again, there are many DO residents who still figure it out and match to subspecialties, but without a doubt they work exceptionally hard to "catch up".

Looking at a match list for a DO school doesn't really do much. There are so many variables to how/why a student matched into a strong IM program. Personally, I would suggest looking at the surrounding city of a DO school to see how close MD teaching hospitals are and if they are, plan on introducing yourself to them as early as possible (e.g. shadowing, doing scut work for research projects right away). Make sure you know if a DO school sends you to specific places in third year, if it's podunk nowhere just know that makes life exceptionally difficult in pursuing anything related to academic IM.


Here are some DO schools that directly sponsor or host a cardiology fellowship (not sure if these are all ACGME accredited however):
AZCOM
Rowan-COM
MSUCOM
NYIT-COM
OUHCOM
OSUCOM
TCOM
 
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Hey Guys,

What DO schools would you say have particularly high match rates for competitive residencies and beyond? I’m personally interested in internal medicine along with a cardiology fellowship and I would love to apply to DO schools that would give me the best opportunity towards this future!

Also can someone clarify the competitiveness of doing a regular IM, and an IM with a fellowship after? A lot of people saying IM is easy to match into, but the later option seems to involve an entirely separate type of IM residency.

Thanks!
Best way to get into a good IM program/fellowship is to go USMD, but if you can't KCUMB, PCOM-PA, CCOM, TCOM tend to have good match lists
 
The large hospital in Des Moines just started a cardio fellowship. Former AOA IM program in house as well. Just an FYI
 
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I don't think it matters what DO school you go to unless you are focusing on matching to a historic AOA surgical residency (ortho, ENT, etc) that traditionally takes students from certain DO schools. To an ACGME residency, we are all the same.

The formula is the same no matter the school-- be rad. That means top 10% pre-clinical grades + research + annihilation of step1/step2 + good clinical grades + good auditions. Do that and you will be successful. You won't be at a top 20 program in surgery/IM, but doors will be open to get where you want to go.
 
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Best way to get into a good IM program/fellowship is to go USMD, but if you can't KCUMB, PCOM-PA, CCOM, TCOM tend to have good match lists
So say if I’m deciding between north state and a high tier do school, should I go with north state? Personally, if I had that decision I would go with the MD. @Thelonious Chunk
 
So say if I’m deciding between north state and a high tier do school, should I go with north state? Personally, if I had that decision I would go with the MD. @Thelonious Chunk
Always take USMD over DO, but if choosing between DO there are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration, I personally took KCUMB over school much closer to where I'm from, mainly due to the board scores and match lists, but if you want to stay closer to home/family thats a good reasons to go to another school over a "high tier" DO
 
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So say if I’m deciding between north state and a high tier do school, should I go with north state? Personally, if I had that decision I would go with the MD. @Thelonious Chunk
Absolutely go to north state.

Have you seen where they rotate? It's with Kaiser, one of the largest health systems in CA with in house residencies and fellowships.
 
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Always take USMD over DO, but if choosing between DO there are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration, I personally took KCUMB over school much closer to where I'm from, mainly due to the board scores and match lists, but if you want to stay closer to home/family thats a good reasons to go to another school over a "high tier" DO

I'm a California resident and I would definitely like to practice in California after all is said and done. So, say if I am deciding between DO schools do you think its a better bet for me to choose a DO school, even if it is worse, in California? Say for example comparing KCUMB or PCOM or Midwestern (I love Chicago so probably wounds mind it haha) to Touro CA or Western university of health sciences?

Btw have you heard good things about touro or Western? Which do u think is better?
 
Absolutely go to north state.

Have you seen where they rotate? It's with Kaiser, one of the largest health systems in CA with in house residencies and fellowships.
If I want to practice in California in the future, how important would you say it is to get into a medical school in California? I have lived here all of my life (Went to UCLA for undergrad) and want to stay here for good. I know that obviously getting into med schools here is crazy difficult and i'll likely have to go out of state but will it be hard coming back to CA for residency or fellowship?
 
USMD all day every day wins over every DO school just in terms of matching if nothing else. Even if it has a lower step 1 average, for God’s sake go MD.
 
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I'm a California resident and I would definitely like to practice in California after all is said and done. So, say if I am deciding between DO schools do you think its a better bet for me to choose a DO school, even if it is worse, in California? Say for example comparing KCUMB or PCOM or Midwestern (I love Chicago so probably wounds mind it haha) to Touro CA or Western university of health sciences?

Btw have you heard good things about touro or Western? Which do u think is better?
If you want to stay in Cali I would go to school in Cali. Not too familiar with those schools (at least not enough to say which is better)
 
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If I want to practice in California in the future, how important would you say it is to get into a medical school in California? I have lived here all of my life (Went to UCLA for undergrad) and want to stay here for good. I know that obviously getting into med schools here is crazy difficult and i'll likely have to go out of state but will it be hard coming back to CA for residency or fellowship?

It is important and it will help by doing so.

You can come back if you go out of state, but you make it harder for yourself.

When you go to a place like north state, you'll have the opportunity to start making connections in your third year with residents if/when you get a chance to rotate with them at Kaiser. If you go out of state that will have wait until fourth year. It's not impossible but it's just harder.

Dont make things harder for yourself. If you have a US MD acceptance in CA, go there.
 
I'm a California resident and I would definitely like to practice in California after all is said and done. So, say if I am deciding between DO schools do you think its a better bet for me to choose a DO school, even if it is worse, in California? Say for example comparing KCUMB or PCOM or Midwestern (I love Chicago so probably wounds mind it haha) to Touro CA or Western university of health sciences?

Btw have you heard good things about touro or Western? Which do u think is better?

The last graduate to come to CA to a strong IM program from KCU was a few years ago to UC Irvine. It happens, it's just rare.

Touro and Western are fine DO schools to go to if staying in CA is a priority. They have their own sponsored residencies and fellowships that have been acgme accredited so you have that as well.

I've equally seen western and touro grads enter IM at places like UC Irvine, Davis, Riverside, LA communiversity, as well as Loma Linda University. I've seen none at Scripps Green in San Diego. I've seen many at Scripps Mercy. I've see few to none of these grades at Kaiser north and LA.
 
Absolutely go to north state.

Have you seen where they rotate? It's with Kaiser, one of the largest health systems in CA with in house residencies and fellowships.
Not all of their students. They also rotate in places with DO and Caribbean students. From talking to quite a few of their students, I did not get the impression that they had better rotation sites than my DO school. One difference is that they get 3 months of IM with 1 month of ICU 3rd year and less FM, versus the standard DO school 2 months of IM and 2 months of FM.
 
IM at strong, university hospitals are competitive because it allows residents to become exceptional applicants for fellowship by having strong subspecialty departments (usually in the way of exceptional researcher investigators). So anyone who is wanting to do fellowship is funneling into these places, from day 1 these residents associate themselves with the fellows and do as much research with them as possible. These bigger places also usually have strong statistician departments to run and analyze data quickly. IM at the ivory towers (Boston, Penn, Columbia, Yale) will have all of the previously listed x10, with huge names in the field where letters of rec are prob far reaching.

It is easy to match IM at smaller places, every year there are vacancies in IM to many of these programs. When you do IM at a small community hospital, there are no in-house fellowships, there is very little research, and letters from subspecialists here do not carry as much as weight since they do not have a formal academic title (professor, program director). Not saying it's bad or that if you come from a small program that you can't match, but the opportunity to stay connected and involved is a much harder process this way, and subspecialties become more of a tight-knit group where who you know can really matter.

The majority of DO schools lack any teaching hospital. Most DO students get their first taste of academic medicine at a university hospital in fourth year, where MD students have already been able to establish repertoire with their IM department with both residents and faculty, and many have already started/completed projects in the subspecialty they are interested in. It can set DO students back a bit. But again, there are many DO residents who still figure it out and match to subspecialties, but without a doubt they work exceptionally hard to "catch up".

Looking at a match list for a DO school doesn't really do much. There are so many variables to how/why a student matched into a strong IM program. Personally, I would suggest looking at the surrounding city of a DO school to see how close MD teaching hospitals are and if they are, plan on introducing yourself to them as early as possible (e.g. shadowing, doing scut work for research projects right away). Make sure you know if a DO school sends you to specific places in third year, if it's podunk nowhere just know that makes life exceptionally difficult in pursuing anything related to academic IM.

KCU(mb) is only great because they have strong curriculum to do well on boards, and if you're lucky enough to stay in KC, you'll have two neighboring MD institutions that are both great heart centers (KU and UMKC/St Luke's). You will not be able to rotate there until your fourth year. Beyond that, they are too focused on opening a dental school or expanding the class size to become the biggest medical school not only in Missouri, but the United States, and maybe even surpass the gigantic class sizes in the Caribbean. In fact, the only internal medicine program that Kansas City University has....is in Joplin, Missouri and unfortunately, there is no cardiology fellowship there.

Here are some DO schools that directly sponsor or host a cardiology fellowship (not sure if these are all ACGME accredited however):
AZCOM
Rowan-COM
MSUCOM
NYIT-COM
OUHCOM
OSUCOM
TCOM

I know ours is ACGME, we have an interventional fellowship too (only 1 spot tho). We might be a small program but I was on that service and saw some seriously knarly stuff I wasn't expecting to see.
 
So say if I’m deciding between north state and a high tier do school, should I go with north state? Personally, if I had that decision I would go with the MD. @Thelonious Chunk
I'm not versed in the issues associated w/ Cal North State, but if you eventually want cards in California go to the California MD program. It will open doors and make everything easier.
 
Hey Guys,

What DO schools would you say have particularly high match rates for competitive residencies and beyond? I’m personally interested in internal medicine along with a cardiology fellowship and I would love to apply to DO schools that would give me the best opportunity towards this future!

Also can someone clarify the competitiveness of doing a regular IM, and an IM with a fellowship after? A lot of people saying IM is easy to match into, but the later option seems to involve an entirely separate type of IM residency.

Thanks!
The issue with everything everyone is saying here is that they are assuming you must go to academic IM affiliated with a university to match a cards GI or Heme One and Pulm/CC fellowship(all other fellowships you can match if you have a pulse lol) this is absolutely not the case, while matching academic IM is a bit harder, its not impossible, our school sends like 4-5+ people to the state MD schools IM program as well as the neighboring states' MD program's IM program, not very difficult but harder then community IM for sure. But....My DO school also has affiliation and helped start an in house IM program that has a Cards fellowship that many of our students match at, there are opportunities outside of academic IM to get a good fellowship . Look at this website that has DO cardiology fellowships(for an example) http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...3f913b72f-3E2FF866-ECA5-1F7B-1485B9BA6EF0A014 that is at community hospitals started by other DO schools. Obviously getting good scores and getting involved in research helps regardless but you still get a fellowship spot from a community program that has in house fellowships
 
, there are opportunities outside of academic IM to get a good fellowship
Yeah there are opportunities, but not alot. And those opportunities are much more difficult when all of a sudden you go to a community IM program with no in-house fellowships and change your mind and want to pursue cards at a university program.
 
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How will all this change with the merger happening in 2020? Would Do’s be on the same playing field as MD’s for all residencies? @AlteredScale
 
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How will all this change with the merger happening in 2020? Would Do’s be on the same playing field as MD’s for all residencies? @AlteredScale

What the merger has done has accredited DO residency and fellowship programs that met ACGME requirements and provided the option for some of these programs to keep their osteopathic distinction. Additionally, varying fellowship committees and specialty committees have "officially" announced whether or not they will consider the COMLEX examinations within the eligibility exemption requirements for entrance. Neurosurgery, plastic surgery are specific ones that have said they are not considering applicants for the eligibility exemption criteria meaning DO students MUST take USMLE to enter those training programs.

At this point in time, this merger does not level the playing field for DO's in anyway besides streamline the residency application process.

You can see a full work up of the merger on my sticky here.
 
What the merger has done has accredited DO residency and fellowship programs that met ACGME requirements and provided the option for some of these programs to keep their osteopathic distinction. Additionally, varying fellowship committees and specialty committees have "officially" announced whether or not they will consider the COMLEX examinations within the eligibility exemption requirements for entrance. Neurosurgery, plastic surgery are specific ones that have said they are not considering applicants for the eligibility exemption criteria meaning DO students MUST take USMLE to enter those training programs.

At this point in time, this merger does not level the playing field for DO's in anyway besides streamline the residency application process.

You can see a full work up of the merger on my sticky here.
So if a DO wanted to go into neurosurgery or plastic surgery, would that have to take all parts of USMLE, meaning Step 1, Step 2 CS/CK and Step 3?
 
So if a DO wanted to go into neurosurgery or plastic surgery, would that have to take all parts of USMLE, meaning Step 1, Step 2 CS/CK and Step 3?
I am not sure about the Step 2 CS portion as I never looked into it with much detail.

Here is the document I believe there is contact information on the bottom which you could ask them pacifically.


 
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LECOM has a couple Cards fellowships in its OPTI as well.

Always go MD if you want anything remotely competitive, even a brand new school, because it will match better. Don't do it because you think the rotations will be better, they probably won't be, or because you think the education will be better, it probably won't be. Do it because no matter what, most programs still view US MD > DO for residency, especially university IM programs.

As far as the merger, I personally think it is a net positive for DOs, but you're not going to see a sudden shift in how DOs are treated with regards to residency applications. What you will see is more DOs applying to competitive programs/fields, and as a result more of them matching (something we've already been seeing).

So if a DO wanted to go into neurosurgery or plastic surgery, would that have to take all parts of USMLE, meaning Step 1, Step 2 CS/CK and Step 3?

This is program specific. NSG RRC resident eligibility requirements says nothing about licensing exam requirements, however, individual programs can require whatever they want, and no DO is getting into an ACGME NSG or Plastics residency without Step 1/2 CK.

I am not sure about the Step 2 CS portion as I never looked into it with much detail.

Here is the document I believe there is contact information on the bottom which you could ask them pacifically.



This only applies to residents (or graduates) of AOA residency programs that have not been ACGME accredited. This was one of the key points of the merger. The ACGME was implementing these changes, which would have limited AOA residency grads with regards to residency or fellowship decisions. This document essentially doesn't apply anymore unless you're in a program that is still pre-accredited, will not get initial accreditation by June 2020 and you'll be starting fellowship after that.
 
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The last graduate to come to CA to a strong IM program from KCU was a few years ago to UC Irvine.
I came to UC Irvine a few years ago from LMU-DCOM for IM and don't recall anybody from KCU who stayed on as a categorical. We mostly have Western and Touro grads in the program.
 
IM at strong, university hospitals are competitive because it allows residents to become exceptional applicants for fellowship by having strong subspecialty departments (usually in the way of exceptional researcher investigators). So anyone who is wanting to do fellowship is funneling into these places, from day 1 these residents associate themselves with the fellows and do as much research with them as possible. These bigger places also usually have strong statistician departments to run and analyze data quickly. IM at the ivory towers (Boston, Penn, Columbia, Yale) will have all of the previously listed x10, with huge names in the field where letters of rec are prob far reaching.

It is easy to match IM at smaller places, every year there are vacancies in IM to many of these programs. When you do IM at a small community hospital, there are no in-house fellowships, there is very little research, and letters from subspecialists here do not carry as much as weight since they do not have a formal academic title (professor, program director). Not saying it's bad or that if you come from a small program that you can't match, but the opportunity to stay connected and involved is a much harder process this way, and subspecialties become more of a tight-knit group where who you know can really matter.

The majority of DO schools lack any teaching hospital. Most DO students get their first taste of academic medicine at a university hospital in fourth year, where MD students have already been able to establish repertoire with their IM department with both residents and faculty, and many have already started/completed projects in the subspecialty they are interested in. It can set DO students back a bit. But again, there are many DO residents who still figure it out and match to subspecialties, but without a doubt they work exceptionally hard to "catch up".

Looking at a match list for a DO school doesn't really do much. There are so many variables to how/why a student matched into a strong IM program. Personally, I would suggest looking at the surrounding city of a DO school to see how close MD teaching hospitals are and if they are, plan on introducing yourself to them as early as possible (e.g. shadowing, doing scut work for research projects right away). Make sure you know if a DO school sends you to specific places in third year, if it's podunk nowhere just know that makes life exceptionally difficult in pursuing anything related to academic IM.


Here are some DO schools that directly sponsor or host a cardiology fellowship (not sure if these are all ACGME accredited however):
AZCOM
Rowan-COM
MSUCOM
NYIT-COM
OUHCOM
OSUCOM
TCOM
Will attending the above DO schools greatly increase our chances of getting into their designated cardiology IM residency- fellowship that they possess?
 
Will attending the above DO schools greatly increase our chances of getting into their designated cardiology IM residency- fellowship that they possess?
Can't say how much but IMO just makes it easier to express interest in the field early on since you can rotate with that division, do research with them, start attending conferences and making connections. But really you just want a place that has multiple specialty departments to allow you to dabble and rotate in each. You may never know if you want to do something in medicine unless you spend some time in it through a rotation.
 
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