Breast IMRT Choosing Wisely... We Knew Ye

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TheWallnerus

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Pour one out for ASTRO's Breast IMRT Choosing Wisely. (Ed. note: Love the "recently published evidence" proviso and the past exonerative tense usage.) I believe this is the first ever "withdrawn" Choosing Wisely.

Sept 2013:

E9u5YZ7XsAAmRG-.png


July 2022:
Fa81guWXkAABKMK.png

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I would love to calculate how much this Choosing Wisely cost radiation oncology practitioners and practices over the last decade, but the number is too mind-boggling (and subjective... using a lot more of IMRT may have lowered IMRT reimbursement more rapidly than what actually transpired).

Also, more perniciously, this Choosing Wisely closely correlated with the appearance of P2Ps in modern rad onc practices. Just to remind everyone, Evicore cites the (old) Choosing Wisely very prominently...

YQ1n9yi.png
 
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„recently published evidence“…

Did I miss something?
Are they referring to a popular SDN thread?
 
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„recently published evidence“…

Did I miss something?
Are they referring to a popular SDN thread?
It felt like yesterday

 
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So for breast IMRT do you all typically use a 4 field ("bow tie") kind of field arrangement?

I use IMRT /VMAT for some challenging comprehensive nodal cases, but I've never really had insurance auth for breast IMRT for just standard whole breast, so I haven't taken a deep dive on treatment planning.
 
So for breast IMRT do you all typically use a 4 field ("bow tie") kind of field arrangement?

I use IMRT /VMAT for some challenging comprehensive nodal cases, but I've never really had insurance auth for breast IMRT for just standard whole breast, so I haven't taken a deep dive on treatment planning.
Essentially it's forward planned IMRT/e comp that we're using most of the time
 
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I just do two field, but still inverse optimized, most the time.

The workflow I’ve come up with is…

Put on standard tangents (fields and borders where you want them etc). Calculate the dose from this. Look at an isodose that provides good coverage (usually I choose about 185%… it’s a two field and Eclipse puts full dose through each beam to start without normalization); make a volume from this isodose/isovolume. In the inverse opt GUI, specify for 100% of this dose to get the Rx (40 Gy eg) and for the dose max in the plan to be 105% with very very high priority. That’s it. Calc that. I then by hand add in some flash and do some light smoothing of the computer’s fluences.

Many ways to do it. The above is certainly not the only way.
 
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I just do two field, but still inverse optimized, most the time.

The workflow I’ve come up with is…

Put on standard tangents (fields and borders where you want them etc). Calculate the dose from this. Look at an isodose that provides good coverage (usually I choose about 185%… it’s a two field and Eclipse puts full dose through each beam to start without normalization); make a volume from this isodose/isovolume. In the inverse opt GUI, specify for 100% of this dose to get the Rx (40 Gy eg) and for the dose max in the plan to be 105% with very very high priority. That’s it. Calc that. I then by hand add in some flash and do some light smoothing of the computer’s fluences.

Many ways to do it. The above is certainly not the only way.

FOr larger breast/tissue thickness, do you play around with beam energy as well?
 
My understanding is that in Europe , imrt is used for almost everything but the simplest palliative treatments? Did astro feel we should use far less imrt than the rest of the first world?
 
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FOr larger breast/tissue thickness, do you play around with beam energy as well?
Yes. Repeat the workflow for 15x beams. In plan sum, weight the low and high energy plans to your hearts content (ie 1.65 Gy for the high energy beams and 1 Gy for the low energy, perhaps). Paste the high energy beams into the low energy plan. The high energy beams are exactly the same geometry as the low energy. The therapists just mode up each tangent twice.
 
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My understanding is that in Europe , imrt used for almost everything but the simplest palliative treatments? Did astro feel we should use far less imrt than the rest of the first world?
Absolutely

Was explained to me that if we had kept on using too much IMRT, IMRT valuation would have plummeted in eyes of Medicare and ASTRO overlords would have been pilloried for letting rad onc run amok

But just like when Gene Wilder (in ‘Young Frankenstein’) told Marty Feldman “Damn your eyes!” … Marty Feldman said “Too late!”… The IMRT devaluation happened anyway.
 
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My understanding is that in Europe , imrt is used for almost everything but the simplest palliative treatments? Did astro feel we should use far less imrt than the rest of the first world?
It's strictly a billing issue. If inverse planned IMRT were billed at an equal rate to forward planned (FIF) 3D, there would never have been a caveat against breast IMRT.

IMO, tangents remain the ideal field configuration for whole breast.

Woops, Wallnerus beat me to it.

I still do FIF as I've been conditioned to believe that this is the most safe "billing" practice.
 
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It's strictly a billing issue. If inverse planned IMRT were billed at an equal rate to forward planned (FIF) 3D, there would never have been a caveat against breast IMRT.

IMO, tangents remain the ideal field configuration for whole breast.

Woops, Wallnerus beat me to it.

I still do FIF as I've been conditioned to believe that this is the most safe "billing" practice.
But if it is about costs, then they should address prices. It has been a basic tenet of Economics for 20 years that prices not utilization are responsible for the high costs. (There has to be some willful ignorance vs deliberate effort to mislead).

Shouldn’t Astro correct itself, and now focus choosing wisely on prices?
Similarly, same schmucks who lied about imrt are now saying salaries are more affected by cms reimbursement than supply and demand? Whose interests are they representing.
 
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Absolutely

Was explained to me that if we had kept on using too much IMRT, IMRT valuation would have plummeted in eyes of Medicare and ASTRO overlords would have been pilloried for letting rad onc run amok

But just like when Gene Wilder (in ‘Young Frankenstein’) told Marty Feldman “Damn your eyes!” … Marty Feldman said “Too late!”… The IMRT devaluation happened anyway.
Well, wouldn’t it also follow that if we kept pumping out residents at double the rate, the value of radiation oncologists would also fall by the same universal principle?
 
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I still do FIF as I've been conditioned to believe that this is the most safe "billing" practice.
Which is fine obv, but now we have published data that inversely optimizing versus forward planning offers even lower side effects (and it was this data that gave ASTRO no quarter for its IMRT Choosing Wisely). Of course, my own eyes telling me inverse optimized was better mattered diddly.
Shouldn’t Astro correct itself, and now focus choosing wisely on prices
Choosing Weasely?
 
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But if it is about costs, then they should address prices. It has been a basic tenet of Economics for 20 years that prices not utilization are responsible for the high costs. (There has to be some willful ignorance vs deliberate effort to mislead).

Shouldn’t Astro correct itself, and now focus choosing wisely on prices?
Similarly, same schmucks who lied about imrt are now saying salaries are more affected by cms reimbursement than supply and demand? Whose interests are they representing.
As always, I am compelled to say:

It's almost like the economic issues that plague our field are so simple, they could be taught...in elementary school.
 
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but now we have published data that inversely optimizing versus forward planning offers even lower side effects
Just want to make sure I understand what data you are talking about?

Not the Jagsi prospective observational data? Also, we should consider if this is really good data.
 
For those interested in true brilliance:

(specifically, the discussion about what even IS breast IMRT)

 
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Yes the MROQC data
I believe this data, but it is because my prior assumption (bayesian prior?) is that these techniques are not equivalent regarding acute toxicity.

With IMRT (per your description of your workflow) your target volume for optimization has significant skin sparing. (Please let us know how much.) We could certainly demonstrate different acute skin toxicities in breast patients treated by IMRT with different selections of "PTVs". None of us would question cropping target volumes for head and neck patients back from the skin to mitigate skin toxicity and in general this makes sense for breast as well.

But, for a 35 year old with breast cancer, is skin sparing wise? I don't know, but the MROQC data indicates that maybe this is a concern that other docs have as well.
 
With IMRT (per your description of your workflow) your target volume for optimization has significant skin sparing. (Please let us know how much
Interesting. Why would the workflow described have significant skin sparing (I assume you mean significant versus standard wedged tangents). Even if not “flashing” (and I always “forward flash” after the inverse optimization) via IMRT, this (not flashing) would only block RT from reaching a small strip of breast skin.

(In this context, flashing, to me, means purposely extending radiation dose out into the air essentially.)

(Some people add a “fake bolus” in as a structure to cause the inverse optimizer to flash. This is fine too. OTOH I think the algorithm makes it too spicy sometimes with this method.)

(E comp and irregular surface compensator are inverse optimization methods.)
 
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So for breast IMRT do you all typically use a 4 field ("bow tie") kind of field arrangement?

I use IMRT /VMAT for some challenging comprehensive nodal cases, but I've never really had insurance auth for breast IMRT for just standard whole breast, so I haven't taken a deep dive on treatment planning.

For comprehensive nodal cases:
1661439159034.png


For breast only:
1661439208080.png


For boosts:
1661439266938.png



For partial breast:
1661439316621.png




VMAT FOR...
everything-reaction-meme.gif
 
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Interesting. Why would the workflow described have significant skin sparing (I assume you mean significant versus standard wedged tangents). Even if not “flashing” (and I always “forward flash” after the inverse optimization) via IMRT, this (not flashing) would only block RT from reaching a small strip of breast skin.

(In this context, flashing, to me, means purposely extending radiation dose out into the air essentially.)

(Some people add a “fake bolus” in as a structure to cause the inverse optimizer to flash. This is fine too. OTOH I think the algorithm makes it too spicy sometimes with this method.)

(E comp and irregular surface compensator are inverse optimization methods.)
Do you flash with every segment? I'm guessing no.

If your target volume is deep from the skin, and you don't flash with every segment (I had an old and great attending who did the "fake bolus" thing with H&N plans. I think he has probably abandoned this now) you can come up with solutions that are markedly skin sparing.

The experiment I would do (but I won't) is to plan with two different optimization targets, (just pick 2 different (significantly) IDLs from your initial tangents) and see what the resultant dose to skin rinds is.

If you weren't functionally skin sparing, why would acute toxicity not be less?

If you actually "fake bolused" a rapid arc breast plan, I'm guessing you would get more skin toxicity than 3d (as we did with those H&N plans).

BTW, I'm pretty sure I want to adopt what you are doing.
 
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Sorry to derail, but what would you all could come up with for a choosing wisely for 2023? Even if you re used some ones from past what do you all think as a field are reasonable cost-saving/quality of care/limiting unnecessary test/expense issues for the field in modern times?

1. Don't do proton prostate unless on a RANDOMIZED trial. Registry doesn't count.
2. Don't do breast protons unless on a randomized trial or unless X constraints cannot be met.
3. Ask your doctor about shorter courses for prostate radiation
4. Present Active Surveillance as preferred approach for low risk prostate cancer
?????
 
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Sorry to derail, but what would you all could come up with for a choosing wisely for 2023? Even if you re used some ones from past what do you all think as a field are reasonable cost-saving/quality of care/limiting unnecessary test/expense issues for the field in modern times?

1. Don't do proton prostate unless on a RANDOMIZED trial. Registry doesn't count.
2. Don't do breast protons unless on a randomized trial or unless X constraints cannot be met.
3. Ask your doctor about shorter courses for prostate radiation
4. Present Active Surveillance as preferred approach for low risk prostate cancer
?????
5. Consider site of service when determining where to get your cancer care or other procedures, esp if you are responsible for paying a % of your treatment or imaging.
 
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Sorry to derail, but what would you all could come up with for a choosing wisely for 2023? Even if you re used some ones from past what do you all think as a field are reasonable cost-saving/quality of care/limiting unnecessary test/expense issues for the field in modern times?

1. Don't do proton prostate unless on a RANDOMIZED trial. Registry doesn't count.
2. Don't do breast protons unless on a randomized trial or unless X constraints cannot be met.
3. Ask your doctor about shorter courses for prostate radiation
4. Present Active Surveillance as preferred approach for low risk prostate cancer
?????
Choosing wisely should be abt prices! Don’t get commodity xrt (breast/prostate) cancer at mdacc; their docs should be referring pts away from their price gouging overlords.. Choosing wisely should not be abt practice of medicine but the prices of the treating center!

Instead of Penn palliative network, they should have a network of community providers that deliver equivalent Breast radiation at 1/5 the price and refer out their patients instead of fleecing society!
 
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Sorry to derail, but what would you all could come up with for a choosing wisely for 2023? Even if you re used some ones from past what do you all think as a field are reasonable cost-saving/quality of care/limiting unnecessary test/expense issues for the field in modern times?

1. Don't do proton prostate unless on a RANDOMIZED trial. Registry doesn't count.
2. Don't do breast protons unless on a randomized trial or unless X constraints cannot be met.
3. Ask your doctor about shorter courses for prostate radiation
4. Present Active Surveillance as preferred approach for low risk prostate cancer
?????
5. Avoid brain RT of any sort in asymptomatic, poor performance status patients with uncontrolled systemic disease
6. Shortest course of palliative radiation in poor performance status patients or those with limited systemic therapy options
7. Actively cultivate comfort in discussing end of life decisions, role of hospice and palliative care services, Always discuss option of "doing nothing" in very elderly patients, those with poor performance status and those with limited systemic therapy options. (should be on medonc choosing wisely as well).
 
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2 field tangent in R sided cases will always be “superior” to this VMAT approach for heart dose ;)

Recall that Ralph W and friends got really worried about even 1 Gy heart dose
But the dose distribution with VMAT in the breast may be superior!
 
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Interesting, ASTRO. Let's see, from Merck's website:

1661465601354.png


Alright, I wonder if there's a way to see how much 15 or 20 fractions of IMRT costs (hypofrac or hypofrac + boost).

Oh! 20 fractions IMRT. Good thing the prostate folks have us covered:

1661465691519.png


So we can subtract the fiducial stuff from the estimate for breast: $14,372.42 for 20 fractions of IMRT.

An entire 20-fraction course of IMRT is less than two infusions of q2week Keytruda, and less than one infusion of q6week Keytruda.

Dear ASTRO: please, just stop.

If I had to consent a patient for "listening to ASTRO" in 2022, I could not. The risks do not outweigh the benefits.
 
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Interesting, ASTRO. Let's see, from Merck's website:

View attachment 358837

Alright, I wonder if there's a way to see how much 15 or 20 fractions of IMRT costs (hypofrac or hypofrac + boost).

Oh! 20 fractions IMRT. Good thing the prostate folks have us covered:

View attachment 358838

So we can subtract the fiducial stuff from the estimate for breast: $14,372.42 for 20 fractions of IMRT.

An entire 20-fraction course of IMRT is less than two infusions of q2week Keytruda, and less than one infusion of q6week Keytruda.

Dear ASTRO: please, just stop.

If I had to consent a patient for "listening to ASTRO" in 2022, I could not. The risks do not outweigh the benefits.
Ok but when it comes to xrt, financial toxicity is dictated by prices of the center delivering it. Penn has some 300k proton regimes for prostate. Why is this not mentioned.
 
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Ok but when it comes to xrt, financial toxicity is dictated by prices of the center delivering it. Penn has some 300k proton regimes for prostate. Why is this not mentioned.
What a great question.

So let's take MD Anderson's "Standard Charges" CSV file.

Now, let's do the same math as the JAMA paper as above:

1661469409339.png


Proposal:

Choosing Wisely #12: Avoid referring patients to PPS-exempt centers whenever possible if you actually care about financial toxicity.
 
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I hate "Choosing Wisely" - it's paternalistic bs that no one asked for, and, given the PPS-exempt-employed physicians who write them, hypocritical to its absolute core.
 
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What a great question.

So let's take MD Anderson's "Standard Charges" CSV file.

Now, let's do the same math as the JAMA paper as above:

View attachment 358841

Proposal:

Choosing Wisely #12: Avoid referring patients to PPS-exempt centers whenever possible if you actually care about financial toxicity.
Charges vs real prices vs financial toxicity to the patient vs global financial toxicity.

These are all different things.

This is how I think entrenched academic docs (who actually think about this stuff, many academic docs appropriately are only concerned about research and patients)/admins and gvt policy makers feel.

1. Except for the VA and NIH affiliated health services, we do not have a national provider, We largely rely on a collection of large, non-profit and sometimes state run, academic medical centers to establish standards of care and drive meaningful medical research.

2. The mission of these centers is nominally to provide tertiary care and establish standards of care through research while providing technical/clinical advances. Now we know that most of these centers are run with a very corporate model nowadays, where bottom line, expansion and management of endowment become parallel missions.

3. There are fairly nominal differences in CMS compensation across regions/centers with the exception of PPS exempt centers (42% and 37% more from CMS to these centers for inpt and outpt services per 2015 data). CMS justifies this by thinking that they are supporting the greater societal goal of research. It should be noted that most of the most prominent academic research centers are not PPS exempt, and many PPS exempt centers would not qualify as "Top Tier" academic places by most people's standards. PPS is a boondoggle relic of some congressional funny business/pork from a different era. Even the feds know this, but it is hard to change (congress).

4. The main difference in compensation comes from private payors, where large systems can negotiate crazy rates and the payors themselves may not be incentivized to provide affordable care because of perverse financial incentives and percentage caps on profit. When you negotiate crazy rates, you have to charge close to those rates to collect what you can. I believe this is what drives the differences in these charge masters.

5. The people who write these paternalistic guidelines are overwhelmingly associated with these large academic centers that can negotiate high rates. But, they view these rates as being a transfer of wealth from insurance companies that are providing products to either wealthy corporate employers or relatively wealthy individuals. That wealthy corporations or individuals may pay more for "premium services" and support the greater societal goal of research is fine by them. It also facilitates the growth of these institutions and their greater control over the field and the provision of "high standard" care.

6. The people who write these guidelines may become fairly wealthy by becoming chairmen or upper admin. There is some pathway to C-suite, and this is some real wealth. But by and large, they can comfort themselves with the idea that they never really worked for money but rather for societal and institutional goals.

7. The people who write these guidelines do know that there are docs out there in the wilderness for whom there is a direct connection between services rendered and income. These docs have a perverse incentive to provide the most expensive care possible, and this needs to be stopped. Historically, many of these wilderness docs were notably more wealthy than their academic peers. This also represented an injustice. To the extent that these guidelines may mitigate any such disparity, all the better. It would really be a shame if community docs and hospitals did really well treating early stage breast with IMRT.

8. If you are a wilderness (community doc) without a significant professional attachment to collaborative groups or your professional organization, you are a problem in this field. This is not true for larger fields. Most IM docs don't give AF about being a part of collaborative groups, or guideline generation or being seen at a conference. They know that most IM docs need provide care in the community. Academic IM docs are just grateful that they don't have to provide all that care. Because Radonc is such a source of revenue however, academic Radonc has changed this equation. The tacit goal is to provide all radonc care at large academic centers or affiliates.
 
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Forgot to add. Breast used to be a community disease site. My program 10-15 years ago had a tiny breast radonc footprint compared to other sites. This is no longer the case with massive satellite expansion. Time to free the reigns on breast IMRT!
 
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Forgot to add. Breast used to be a community disease site. My program 10-15 years ago had a tiny breast radonc footprint compared to other sites. This is no longer the case with massive satellite expansion. Time to free the reigns on breast IMRT!
Just in spirit of full disclosure. I kept the reigns free on breast IMRT for Medicare patients since dawn of time. As we all know, Medicare just pays; no prior auth or P2P hurdles etc. (This is good and bad at the same time.) I was trained to do IMRT for all breast patients in residency, and the randomized ph III data has been there since around 2005.
 
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I hate "Choosing Wisely" - it's paternalistic bs that no one asked for, and, given the PPS-exempt-employed physicians who write them, hypocritical to its absolute core.
Same group of docs who are happy to hide the financials of phy comp from younger faculty and residents as we've seen recently on Twitter
 
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Anybody doing APBI on triple negatives who met Livi inclusion criteria?
I have quite a few patients with 1.5hr plus drives. So I'm willing to offer if they refuse whole breast RT due to distance constraints and got chemo. If no chemo might consider 5 fraction whole breast instead. I'm a little uneasy offering partial breast to a triple negative unless chemo is there to mop up microscopic disease.
 
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I have quite a few patients with 1.5hr plus drives. So I'm willing to offer if they refuse whole breast RT due to distance constraints and got chemo. If no chemo might consider 5 fraction whole breast instead. I'm a little uneasy offering partial breast to a triple negative unless chemo is there to mop up microscopic disease.
Yeah, got chemo. My bigger concern is body habitus and toxicity with WBRT. She met inclusion criteria, but virtually none were TN.
 
Why not do fast fw or fast, why would you do APBI in a TN?
Why is there this idea that triple negative have more recurrences outside the tumor bed + 2cm. I have scoured the internet and found zero evidence for it. I have asked breast experts and they cannot tell me there is any evidence for it. I agree they have a higher recurrence rate locally and distantly, but no evidence that the IBTR are further away from cavity.
 
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Why is there this idea that triple negative have more recurrences outside the tumor bed + 2cm. I have scoured the internet and found zero evidence for it. I have asked breast experts and they cannot tell me there is any evidence for it. I agree they have a higher recurrence rate locally and distantly, but no evidence that the IBTR are further away from cavity.
I agree with this. The partial breast PTVs are often very large and are often just "less than the whole breast" and i can't imagine too many recurrences out side the PTV that meet all the aPBI criteria.
 
Why is there this idea that triple negative have more recurrences outside the tumor bed + 2cm. I have scoured the internet and found zero evidence for it. I have asked breast experts and they cannot tell me there is any evidence for it. I agree they have a higher recurrence rate locally and distantly, but no evidence that the IBTR are further away from cavity.
Chinese study showing a benefit to pmrt in early stage N0, Canadian data showing better outcomes in the same population with bcs+rt vs mastectomy. None of those studies were done with apbi.

Data free zone obviously
 
Chinese study showing a benefit to pmrt in early stage N0, Canadian data showing better outcomes in the same population with bcs+rt vs mastectomy. None of those studies were done with apbi.

Data free zone obviously
Irrelevant

What I’m saying is there any recurrence or pathological data that shows triple negative has higher outside of cavity recurrence rate. That would be the only reason why they would be excluded.

People on this forum didn’t want to HF TNBC early on (and many still don’t).

We do need a healthy fear of TNBC, but not for this - unless someone finds that path data for me!
 
Why not do fast fw or fast, why would you do APBI in a TN?
Not about fraction number, more about ability to do conformal treatment. I'm concerned she'll have pretty bad skin toxicities with tangents, which would not be significant with imrt to cavity. She's got big breast and cavity is posterior.
 
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