IMRT/VMAT breast/CW

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"what constraints are you not able to meet with 3D?" They often don't accept "well, randomized trials shows IMRT better here."
Also can we just talk about how scientifically incorrect this attitude is.

In a trial, treatment X (control, non-IMRT) was compared against treatment Y (experiment, IMRT), and treatment Y was shown superior. In multiple randomized trials. There have been more randomized trials of breast IMRT versus any other body site.

Now "post hoc," the rad oncs come in and say re treatment X:
1) treatment X was not planned as nicely as treatment Y
2) treatment Y was really a form of treatment X (or treatment A... not even actually a form of X or Y)
3) The fundamental issue is homogeneity... not a fundamental difference between X and Y... and X achieves homogeneity of an acceptable amount

Total scientific dumba$$ery at best, chicanery at worst.

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I'm skeptical of getting insurance to approve routine breast IMRT in my area.

evicore is going to say "what constraints are you not able to meet with 3D?" They often don't accept "well, randomized trials shows IMRT better here."

I suppose I'm partly the enemy of @TheWallnerus because I think the benefit of IMRT is improving homogeneity across the breast. Which, if you can do without IMRT, might get you there. EviCore would rather pay for 3 FiF segments a side and call it 3D (doesn't matter what we call it) rather than pay for IMRT.

But, if you can't meet homogeneity and coverage with 3D, that would be what I focus on.
 
I suppose I'm partly the enemy of @TheWallnerus because I think the benefit of IMRT is improving homogeneity across the breast. Which, if you can do without IMRT, might get you there. EviCore would rather pay for 3 FiF segments a side and call it 3D (doesn't matter what we call it) rather than pay for IMRT.

But, if you can't meet homogeneity and coverage with 3D, that would be what I focus on.
The studies that showed FiF was better literally called it IMRT. Like it or not, you’re using IMRT. You’re just billing 3D…
 
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The studies that showed FiF was better literally called it IMRT. Like it or not, you’re using IMRT. You’re just billing 3D…

I'm not arguing against that, but if EviCore guidelines call forward planned FiF 3D and we're stuck treating the patients whose insurance hire EviCore, then we gotta play by their rules
 
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I suppose I'm partly the enemy of @TheWallnerus because I think the benefit of IMRT is improving homogeneity across the breast. Which, if you can do without IMRT, might get you there. EviCore would rather pay for 3 FiF segments a side and call it 3D (doesn't matter what we call it) rather than pay for IMRT.

But, if you can't meet homogeneity and coverage with 3D, that would be what I focus on.
… the “homogeneity game” was played quite vigorously in both arms of all the randomized breast IMRT trials. Including most recently with the MROQC folks’ “trial.” Despite their best efforts to make beautiful artisanal FiF plans, there’s just something ‘bout that IMRT sauce. Every rad onc is seduced with thinking that the numbers/pictures on the screen tell the whole story when there’s so much clinical evidence to say that’s just part of the story.
 
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… the “homogeneity game” was played quite vigorously in both arms of all the randomized breast IMRT trials. Including most recently with the MROQC folks’ “trial.” Despite their best efforts to make beautiful artisanal FiF plans, there’s just something ‘bout that IMRT sauce. Every rad onc is seduced with thinking that the numbers/pictures on the screen tell the whole story when there’s so much clinical evidence to say that’s just part of the story.
Let’s talk about this for a moment. I’ve read similar comments, and I‘ve seen Todd’s musings as well. Let’s for a moment assume this is true. What is or are some of the plausible mechanisms for this? Because you’re right, you can get some beautiful FnF plans.

I haven’t directly compared MUs for IMRT vs FnF, I’ll assume FnF is less. Dose rate to skin over time, which would be more interrupted in IMRT than FnF. That’s the only plausible scenario I can conjure in my head, and I can only think it’s such a minor difference in comparing plans here.

Or it’s the sum of homogeneity, better planning, etc. But something I’ve been trying to think about for some time and don’t have a convincing rationale yet in my mind.
 
Let’s talk about this for a moment. I’ve read similar comments, and I‘ve seen Todd’s musings as well. Let’s for a moment assume this is true. What is or are some of the plausible mechanisms for this? Because you’re right, you can get some beautiful FnF plans.

I haven’t directly compared MUs for IMRT vs FnF, I’ll assume FnF is less. Dose rate to skin over time, which would be more interrupted in IMRT than FnF. That’s the only plausible scenario I can conjure in my head, and I can only think it’s such a minor difference in comparing plans here.

Or it’s the sum of homogeneity, better planning, etc. But something I’ve been trying to think about for some time and don’t have a convincing rationale yet in my mind.
Must you know how pyridium works when you prescribe it for RT-related GU toxicity, or do you just prescribe it. Many of the “targeted agents” being used right now have less than perfectly understood mechanisms of action too.

In my opinion, as increasingly unfashionable as it is, a randomized trial “settles all scores” and post hoc activities where one tries to convince oneself *why* a treatment is superior are a waste of time. Especially if the experiment has been multiply replicated.
 
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Must you know how pyridium works when you prescribe it for RT-related GU toxicity, or do you just prescribe it. Many of the “targeted agents” being used right now have less than perfectly understood mechanisms of action too.

In my opinion, as increasingly unfashionable as it is, a randomized trial “settles all scores” and post hoc activities where one tries to convince oneself *why* a treatment is superior are a waste of time. Especially if the experiment has been multiply replicated.
Oh totally. Not disputing it the outcome by any means, I agree on that sense. More of if we can understand why, especially if plans look comparable, then maybe we can leverage that property/rationale in the TPS further, or in other situations.
 
Oh totally. Not disputing it the outcome by any means, I agree on that sense. More of if we can understand why, especially if plans look comparable, then maybe we can leverage that property/rationale in the TPS further, or in other situations.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. The theoretical physicists theorize; then their theories have to be tested by the experimental physicists to figure out which theories are good and which are not. Little by little “the truth” is obtained. If you’ve got theories, test them. Musings are wonderful, but well run experiments are even better. We’ve run more experiments testing IMRT in breast than any other disease site. I’ll let others test some new theories, but they’ve got a long row to hoe to show IMRT isn’t best or something else is better. If it takes one negating finding to invalidate an entire theory, the theory that breast IMRT reduces side effects when treating breast cancer is unassailed. I think it’s the best proved (non-inferiority) theory of 21st century clinical radiation oncology. Which is wild! Even wilder: I’m the only rad onc who talks this way.
 
Does anyone have a good planning resource for chest wall VMAT to help our dosimetrist get up to speed? I have been reluctant to use VMAT routinely due to the low dose spread but our dosimetrist don't have much experience with it and I'm sure the plans can be improved.
 
Does anyone have a good planning resource for chest wall VMAT to help our dosimetrist get up to speed? I have been reluctant to use VMAT routinely due to the low dose spread but our dosimetrist don't have much experience with it and I'm sure the plans can be improved.
Why not do IMRT like they did in the trials to start…
 
Does anyone have a good planning resource for chest wall VMAT to help our dosimetrist get up to speed? I have been reluctant to use VMAT routinely due to the low dose spread but our dosimetrist don't have much experience with it and I'm sure the plans can be improved.
We will do VMAT for traditional Breast/CW RNI every so often. I know from the dosimetrist point of view this is probably one of the most challenging things to plan on VMAT. I'm not sure of all the details but I think Varian can provided technical help for these plans if you have access.
 
I'm not understanding why this is complex. Protocols have contralateral breast and low dose lung constraints. Let the software do it's job.
 
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I'm not understanding why this is complex. Protocols have contralateral breast and low dose lung constraints. Let the software do it's job.
What protocols are those? I usually use B51 for standard fractionation with 3D and they only list an ipsi lung V20 constraint.
 
What protocols are those? I usually use B51 for standard fractionation with 3D and they only list an ipsi lung V20 constraint.
MSKCC has published their constraints. I think their MHD constraint is kind of high so I ask my planners to go lower.

 
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Conventional (CHARM trial)
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Hypofrac
1680285104228.png
 
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The only way in my experience to make breast vmat work is to use tangential or bow tie planning methods. I use two arcs which are constrained to a specific angle range using avoidance sectors and a third arc without avoidance sectors. I have a paper on it, which helped a lot with our program, but I'll have to dig it up later.
 
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The only way in my experience to make breast vmat work is to use tangential or bow tie planning methods. I use two arcs which are constrained to a specific angle range using avoidance sectors and a third arc without avoidance sectors. I have a paper on it, which helped a lot with our program, but I'll have to dig it up later.
Or whole breast planning we use a hybrid tangential IMRT for homogenization and 3D CRT for dose. Our VMAT for breast/CW + RNIwe use 2/3-3/4 partial arcs but I have not convinced our physics staff to look at bow-tie arcs as a comparison (in part because we are short many physicists, sigh). If you find that paper I would be very keen to read it, thank you.
 
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Breast is the worst!
 
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Or whole breast planning we use a hybrid tangential IMRT for homogenization and 3D CRT for dose. Our VMAT for breast/CW + RNIwe use 2/3-3/4 partial arcs but I have not convinced our physics staff to look at bow-tie arcs as a comparison (in part because we are short many physicists, sigh). If you find that paper I would be very keen to read it, thank you.
Just get on the TPS and do your own plan to teach physics

Being slightly facetious but I am of strong opinion that residents need to be taught to be proficient in planning and above is a good example

The TPS is not a black box the doctor is not allowed to touch… and shame on people who try to perpetuate that culture

At the end of the day we are just talking about a computer skill
 
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Completely agree. Learning to plan will take you to the next level with your plans rather than relying solely on dosimetry.
 
Completely agree. Learning to plan will take you to the next level with your plans rather than relying solely on dosimetry.
Very few residencies actually ever gave a dosimetry rotation iirc which is pretty shortsighted imo. I basically worked it in during my elective time
 
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Very few residencies actually ever gave a dosimetry rotation iirc which is pretty shortsighted imo. I basically worked it in during my elective time

But I don’t think we are taking about a few weeks in dosi. More radical than that, physician planning start to finish.
 
I’m thinking about getting trained in dosimitry, work remotely as a full time dosimitrist and make 120k a year. Would anybody hire a former board certified rad onc as a dosimitrist if I got certified? Imagine, all your contours and targets could possibly be done for you.
 
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But I don’t think we are taking about a few weeks in dosi. More radical than that, physician planning start to finish.
What happens in planning is absolute key to clinical outcomes in rad onc. I’m of opinion being able to know the process start to finish, and be just as good as any dosimetrist, makes a person a better rad onc. I’m not talking about knowing all the TGs or how to measure a machine iso. Talking about the clinical decisions and tradeoffs dosimetrists make numerous times per day. I was just showing my colleagues a proton plan on a lung the other day. The beam choices dosi made were bad, well, could have been way better, but the plan had been approved by the doc and patient already started treatment.
 
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What happens in planning is absolute key to clinical outcomes in rad onc. I’m of opinion being able to know the process start to finish, and be just as good as any dosimetrist, makes a person a better rad onc. I’m not talking about knowing all the TGs or how to measure a machine iso. Talking about the clinical decisions and tradeoffs dosimetrists make numerous times per day. I was just showing my colleagues a proton plan on a lung the other day. The beam choices dosi made were bad, well, could have been way better, but the plan had been approved by the doc and patient already started treatment.
No such thing as a bad proton plan… how dare you!
 
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What happens in planning is absolute key to clinical outcomes in rad onc.
Within reason. A doc obsessed with homogeneity may spend hours a week tweaking segs on breast plans. I have yet to be convinced that this is correlated with changes in clinical outcomes (or that we should be confident in our homogeneity or dmax for most plans beyond a roughly 5% uncertainty). I do agree that strategy (beam arrangement, technique, prioritization of planning objectives) is key. I am willing to bet the farm that BMI and breast size correlate much more with long term cosmetic outcomes for whole breast treatment than V105 (although these are not independent).

I'm happy to let dosi do their job.

Regarding RA. Such a great tool for so many applications, but I've yet to be convinced that it is the right strategy for breast. I don't even use it for APBI (although, I think this is fine, but benefit here more related to time on table than anything else).

To me, RA provides benefit regarding time on table and in terms of finding dosimetric solutions unique to having nearly infinite gantry angles. It allows for nice homogeneity and robustness when you want it (prostate, most head and neck) and steep fall off for simple shapes when you allow the target to get hot (SBRT lung and brain). It is almost never a useful tool to minimize low dose bath to adjacent structures however, and this is what we are aiming for in breast. (very low heart, low lung and very low contralateral breast). We tolerate some heterogeneity in breast (lots in most comprehensive nodal and chest wall plans), but breast is by definition adjuvant treatment and there is no tumor to dump dose into to help with steep fall off like in SBRT cases.
 
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There is so much in the optimization process and techniques for imrt/vmat. The range in plan quality between a good plan and a bad one is potentially tremendous. Knowing things like how to use various planning structures is critical to achieving optimal plans.

I learned how to plan because I wasn't happy with what dosimetry was giving me. Not to say that they are bad, they are probably pretty decent where I work. At the end of the day, they simply don't care as much as I do, and they don't always understand the tradeoffs I choose. They were doing breast vmat for other doctors before I got there, but honestly their plans were no good. We had to really work at it. Of course, the dosimetrist has no interest in researching how to do this.

Hippocampal sparing whole brain is similar to breast vmat in that there are techniques, which you have to know to achieve a good plan. Again, I haven't met any dosimetrists with that much initiative in seeking out further education like we do.
 
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I have yet to be convinced that this is correlated with changes in clinical outcomes
I think a vast vast majority of what we do with IMRT is questionable in this sense... I mean, sure, if there is no dose going to the contralateral neck, then thats one major decision. But the academic guys who get off on millimeters?

Sure if there is a critical structure nearby it matters.. maybe. I've seen my share of sloppy contours (not mine!) and the patients are none the wiser nor worse off. Good thing there are plenty of randomized trials to prove that contouring skillz result in better outcomes.. oh wait..
 
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I think a vast vast majority of what we do with IMRT is questionable in this sense... I mean, sure, if there is no dose going to the contralateral neck, then thats one major decision. But the academic guys who get off on millimeters?

Sure if there is a critical structure nearby it matters.. maybe. I've seen my share of sloppy contours (not mine!) and the patients are none the wiser nor worse off. Good thing there are plenty of randomized trials to prove that contouring skillz result in better outcomes.. oh wait..
We just always gotta compete against each other. This is the way… for a radiation oncologist!
 
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Hippocampal sparing whole brain
Massive improvement in my center with change in technique and utilization of certain beam angles (driven by a top notch dosi). One aspect of HC sparing whole brain that is often not considered is the significant eye (and lacrimal gland) dose that you can get. Not really addressed with most constraints that I am aware of, but I have had pts getting HC sparing WBRT get eye irritation (unlike any I had seen in innumerable traditional WBRT cases). Changed the way I looked at these plans.
 
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A doc obsessed with homogeneity may spend hours a week tweaking segs on breast plans
Just inverse optimize it
changes in clinical outcomes
There’s data
Regarding RA. Such a great tool for so many applications, but I've yet to be convinced that it is the right strategy for breast.
Agree
To me, RA provides benefit regarding time on table and in terms of finding dosimetric solutions unique to having nearly infinite gantry angles
Technically just 3600 possible angles :)
0, 0.1, 0.2… 359.9
Sure if there is a critical structure nearby it matters.. maybe. I've seen my share of sloppy contours (not mine!) and the patients are none the wiser nor worse off
Knowing how to plan improves your contouring
YMMV
 
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Technically just 3600 possible angles :)
0, 0.1, 0.2… 359.9
Except 178-182... Interesting some of the technical/planning caveats.

Will place some spine SBRTs prone for this reason.
 
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I'm not understanding why this is complex. Protocols have contralateral breast and low dose lung constraints. Let the software do it's job.
It’s not a constraints issue, it’s how to set up the arcs issue. Typically a chest wall and superclav are too big to treat with one arc field so you have to figure out how to match two of these together, which is where the challenge is.
 
Within reason. A doc obsessed with homogeneity may spend hours a week tweaking segs on breast plans. I have yet to be convinced that this is correlated with changes in clinical outcomes (or that we should be confident in our homogeneity or dmax for most plans beyond a roughly 5% uncertainty). I do agree that strategy (beam arrangement, technique, prioritization of planning objectives) is key. I am willing to bet the farm that BMI and breast size correlate much more with long term cosmetic outcomes for whole breast treatment than V105 (although these are not independent).

I'm happy to let dosi do their job.

Regarding RA. Such a great tool for so many applications, but I've yet to be convinced that it is the right strategy for breast. I don't even use it for APBI (although, I think this is fine, but benefit here more related to time on table than anything else).

To me, RA provides benefit regarding time on table and in terms of finding dosimetric solutions unique to having nearly infinite gantry angles. It allows for nice homogeneity and robustness when you want it (prostate, most head and neck) and steep fall off for simple shapes when you allow the target to get hot (SBRT lung and brain). It is almost never a useful tool to minimize low dose bath to adjacent structures however, and this is what we are aiming for in breast. (very low heart, low lung and very low contralateral breast). We tolerate some heterogeneity in breast (lots in most comprehensive nodal and chest wall plans), but breast is by definition adjuvant treatment and there is no tumor to dump dose into to help with steep fall off like in SBRT cases.

I don't disagree that BMI or breast size may be the bigger driver, but definitely data that V105 in breast matters...

 
I don't disagree that BMI or breast size may be the bigger driver, but definitely data that V105 in breast matters...

These are the constraints that we use.

But a couple points from my perspective.

V105 was not predictive on univariate analysis for Grade 2-3 dermatitis but was for Grade 3 alone. A sample size that is roughly 16 patients.

They did a multivariate analysis regarding Grade 3 dermatitis on 16 patients!

All variables in their model (age, big breast, obesity, V105) had ORs of 4-5 for Grade 3 dermatitis. It is unlikely that there was a single Grade 3 dermatitis patient that did not have at least one non-dosimetric risk factor.

I would expect IMRT to be utilized to a higher degree in the high risk group (large breasts, etc). IMRT may not have emerged as significant on univariate analysis due to confounding/suppressing of other variables. We also do not know what fraction of high risk patients received IMRT.

We do know that IMRT reduces acute skin toxicity (if you let it). It will definitely let you floor that V105 if you want to. This may also complicate the data. Using IMRT in this setting is a strategic choice that many of us don't routinely make (probably for cultural reasons).

The absolute risk of grade 3 dermatitis for V105 over 10% was 6%.

You can always drop a fraction.

Like most of our dosimetric constraints, I believe V105 constraining is reasonable but maybe not very meaningful. I do it.

Breast is the worst.
 
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