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Had one last year, this time it's our turn!
19 days, 22 hours and 49 minutes (15 days till Match Monday)
19 days, 22 hours and 49 minutes (15 days till Match Monday)
Countdown to Match Day 2014
- Thread starter Ronin786
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Match monday is also st.patrick's day. For those who want to start drinking early...there is another excuse.
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Two years ago, Match Day was St. Patty's Day. We have the latest possible date for Match Day
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Could time be going any more slower? Sigh. . . I wonder if the match has been ran already?
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I think my laptop could run the match algorithm in less than 5 minutes, so I would vote yes. It's not a computationally-intensive algorithm, despite the fact that the theory behind it won the Nobel prize.
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In that case, I wonder how hard it is to hack the nrmp system to find out one's result early?. . .jk, jk. I'm not that tech savvy! Besides, that is probably a match violation. . . .
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If it even takes that long.
I'd imagine it would take time to "setup" everything for match week (i.e. create all the statistic graphs/tables, add programs in soap, add applicants in soap, etc.). And I can't imagine the NRMP employes more than a dozen people.
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That seems way longer than I would think. As a poster mentioned above, the algorithm is pretty computationally simple -- I think my laptop could probably knock it out in a couple minutes. That said, who knows.
Someone said they recheck the results by hand after the computer spits out the data. Anyone know if there's any accuracy to that?
Also, I heard a few years ago the computer actually screwed up the couples match and it wasn't caught, so people ended up matched incorrectly but they couldn't do anything about it. Anyone know the backstory or if there's even any validity to that story?
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Warning: Very Nerdy Discussion follows. You were warned.
The delay from ROL lists to Match day has nothing to do with how long the match takes to run. As mentioned above, the match itself probably takes less than 2 minutes to run. The plain match is a straightforward algorithm -- it is very deterministic and straightforward, and is a linear problem. No matter where you start, you'll end up with the same answer.
But the match has several aspects that make it more complicated -- couples, reversions, and odd/even limits. You all know about couples. The problem with couples is this: if the match algorithm is working on your match list and tries to match you into your #1 rank and it's already full with people who were ranked higher than you, then it moves on to your #2. There's no way (in a plain match) for there ever to be a chance of a spot opening for you, since the only thing that could happen is someone even higher on the rank list getting a spot, and bumping someone else out. But, a couple's match changes all of that -- if someone who has "tentatively matched" to your #1 spot is couple's matching with someone and their partner is bumped out of their tentative match, then they will move on to the next spot on their list, so it becomes possible that you'd have to go back and check that a better spot hadn't opened for each applicant. This makes the match much more complicated (it changes it from a "P" problem to an "NP" problem, I think?). This can be addressed by running the match for non couple's first, and then the couple's at the end -- this minimizes the chances of collisions like this, but invariably the couple's matches themselves will collide and create problems like this. There's a very nerdy discussion here: http://www.stanford.edu/~niederle/nrmpdesign.pdf
The second issue are "reversions". I have two programs, a Primary Care and Categorical. My match is arranged so that if the Primary care spots don't fill, they "revert" to the categorical. This means that if at the "end" of the match I have an open spot in Primary Care, my primary care quota is decreased by 1 (so now it's actually full), and my categorical is increased by 1. This then means the match needs to be run again, because now one more person can get into my program. And if that person (the next person on my list who ranked me highly enough) is matched somewhere else, then that list needs to be re-run, etc. And once all that is done, then you need to check for reversions again.
The third issue is odd/even limits. Programs have an option to limit themselves to only odd or even numbers of matches. This could be used to help with possible "part time" residencies -- I'd want to match exactly 2 half time residents, or have those two spots revert to 1 additional full time resident. This again mucks with quotas after the match is "run", and forces it to re-run again.
All that said, it still probably takes less than 2 minutes to run the whole thing, even including all of the above issues. So why all the time?
It's all prep and error checking. Making sure the data has all been entered correctly. I expect that if a list is de-certified at 8:55PM on the rank date and not recertified, the NRMP might contact those people to be sure it wasn't some sort of a mistake. They need to recheck all the ECFMG certification status for IMG's and withdraw any who are not ECFMG eligible. The match may not be run on the same system the website runs on, and the data would need to be transferred across (and then rechecked again). Then the match is run. Then everything is double checked -- there should be no way for anyone to get a higher match than they received. Then getting ready for SOAP, all the data tables, etc. Could it be done faster? Probably. But I'd rather it was done correctly.
To the poster above who commented that the couple's match was screwed up, that is not correct. The couple's match is integrated with the main match, so they are really the same thing. What you're thinking of is the AUA match that went horribly awry. There's an SDN thread about it here:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/urology-match-completely-screwed-up-this-year.175816/ What's really amazing is that the threads about it on the official urology match website have all been deleted (they left the threads in place, but deleted all of the posts).
SOAP is something completely different -- there is no match at all. Applicants can receive multiple offers and then pick from them. This results in a smaller number of people getting multiple offers, and others needing to wait a few rounds before they get any offer at all. This is exactly the problem the match was created to address. The NRMP feels that there isn't enough time to run a second match, hence we have SOAP (or we would have match day in April)
The delay from ROL lists to Match day has nothing to do with how long the match takes to run. As mentioned above, the match itself probably takes less than 2 minutes to run. The plain match is a straightforward algorithm -- it is very deterministic and straightforward, and is a linear problem. No matter where you start, you'll end up with the same answer.
But the match has several aspects that make it more complicated -- couples, reversions, and odd/even limits. You all know about couples. The problem with couples is this: if the match algorithm is working on your match list and tries to match you into your #1 rank and it's already full with people who were ranked higher than you, then it moves on to your #2. There's no way (in a plain match) for there ever to be a chance of a spot opening for you, since the only thing that could happen is someone even higher on the rank list getting a spot, and bumping someone else out. But, a couple's match changes all of that -- if someone who has "tentatively matched" to your #1 spot is couple's matching with someone and their partner is bumped out of their tentative match, then they will move on to the next spot on their list, so it becomes possible that you'd have to go back and check that a better spot hadn't opened for each applicant. This makes the match much more complicated (it changes it from a "P" problem to an "NP" problem, I think?). This can be addressed by running the match for non couple's first, and then the couple's at the end -- this minimizes the chances of collisions like this, but invariably the couple's matches themselves will collide and create problems like this. There's a very nerdy discussion here: http://www.stanford.edu/~niederle/nrmpdesign.pdf
The second issue are "reversions". I have two programs, a Primary Care and Categorical. My match is arranged so that if the Primary care spots don't fill, they "revert" to the categorical. This means that if at the "end" of the match I have an open spot in Primary Care, my primary care quota is decreased by 1 (so now it's actually full), and my categorical is increased by 1. This then means the match needs to be run again, because now one more person can get into my program. And if that person (the next person on my list who ranked me highly enough) is matched somewhere else, then that list needs to be re-run, etc. And once all that is done, then you need to check for reversions again.
The third issue is odd/even limits. Programs have an option to limit themselves to only odd or even numbers of matches. This could be used to help with possible "part time" residencies -- I'd want to match exactly 2 half time residents, or have those two spots revert to 1 additional full time resident. This again mucks with quotas after the match is "run", and forces it to re-run again.
All that said, it still probably takes less than 2 minutes to run the whole thing, even including all of the above issues. So why all the time?
It's all prep and error checking. Making sure the data has all been entered correctly. I expect that if a list is de-certified at 8:55PM on the rank date and not recertified, the NRMP might contact those people to be sure it wasn't some sort of a mistake. They need to recheck all the ECFMG certification status for IMG's and withdraw any who are not ECFMG eligible. The match may not be run on the same system the website runs on, and the data would need to be transferred across (and then rechecked again). Then the match is run. Then everything is double checked -- there should be no way for anyone to get a higher match than they received. Then getting ready for SOAP, all the data tables, etc. Could it be done faster? Probably. But I'd rather it was done correctly.
To the poster above who commented that the couple's match was screwed up, that is not correct. The couple's match is integrated with the main match, so they are really the same thing. What you're thinking of is the AUA match that went horribly awry. There's an SDN thread about it here:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/urology-match-completely-screwed-up-this-year.175816/ What's really amazing is that the threads about it on the official urology match website have all been deleted (they left the threads in place, but deleted all of the posts).
SOAP is something completely different -- there is no match at all. Applicants can receive multiple offers and then pick from them. This results in a smaller number of people getting multiple offers, and others needing to wait a few rounds before they get any offer at all. This is exactly the problem the match was created to address. The NRMP feels that there isn't enough time to run a second match, hence we have SOAP (or we would have match day in April)
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Even with all of that, why does it take 3+ weeks (rank list close to match email day) for applicants to find out? Is this like the Oscars, where some CPA firm knows all the results well in advance? Would be interesting to know exactly when the match results are known to somebody. And it would be even better if they could figure out how to cut this down from 3+ weeks to something like 3 days.
Why can't SOAP be done after Match Day? Or said differently, why isn't the match email day the actual Match day, and SOAP then takes place after that? How many total SOAP spots get filled? Is it a case of tail wagging the dog in that last week? Does SOAP delay the Match Day so that on Match Day everybody can have a big kiss and hug scene with their envelopes (again like the Oscars)? Do successful SOAPers go to their Match ceremonies to share in the celebration, the envelope tearing, etc?
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That's because they want people who don't match to be able to walk up and still have something to pull out of an envelope on Match Day. Theoretically you can SOAP and be the same as everybody else.
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It takes a long time to stuff 28,000 envelopes.
Reminds me of a terrible job I had in college. I worked at the company that produces financial statements for all the major investment companies.
There was this machine about the size of a kitchen which could take big printed drums of printed statements, cut them into pages, fold and stick them in envelopes, and put postage on them. It could probably create all 28,000 letters in the envelopes in about 15-30 minutes.
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its the same reason it takes 3 weeks for your step scores to come out and 3 months for you to know if you passed your boards...
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Given that I will certainly be moving to another city for whatever residency I match at, and possibly cross country, it would be VERY helpful to find out sooner than March 21. There is so much that I (and others) have to do in the 75+ days after that (you know, like, finishing freaking med school and graduating) it would really help to buy a little more time for house and apartment hunts, long distance moves, etc.
3+ weeks notification and March 21, added together, are total bull****. March 1-ish would be a lot more helpful.
3+ weeks notification and March 21, added together, are total bull****. March 1-ish would be a lot more helpful.
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Yeah, but...the irony is that the successful SOAPers actually find out where they matched a couple of days before the rest of us, and the reason we are being delayed for 5 days is to accommodate them in a Match ceremony? That doesn't really add up to me...hell with the ceremony, just let me sign on to NRMP and find out where I matched ASAP (like on email Monday). You could still have the ceremony after the SOAP.
At my high school graduation, I sat next to a guy I did not know. We all went up, crossed the stage, and got our diplomas. Mine was real, and I noticed his was a blank sheet of paper. He saw the look on my face and he said "I didn't graduate on time, will finish up in summer school." They could do this for SOAPers...whatever...
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Eh, I think the wait between Match Monday and Match day is minimal in the grand scheme of things, especially if it means someone doesn't feel like a fool on Friday in front of everybody. And that's coming from someone who doesn't even have a Match Day at school.
The 3 weeks before that though is absurd and everybody could do without it. Make ROL due on the 20th or whatever and Match Day the 1st of March.
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I do not really understand the point of match day parties and envelope opening in the age of social media and google docs. I'm sure part of it is tradition, but in a world with mass communication in a click of a button, it is so much easier just to let your friends and family know where you matched over FB. Who do these match day parties glorify anyways? The students who received top 1-3 spot? I was reading a thread yesterday about the people who matched further down on their rank list than they had hoped, and they were completely bummed about it. Why should they have to be forced to participate in a match day celebration? Furthermore, it has already been said that the people who SOAP know their residency before match day.
I understand there need to be some quality checks for the match to ensure accuracy, but after that is complete, why not just release the results? The SOAP and statistics can be organized afterwards. I can always call/text/FB my result with family and friends and have just as much satisfaction. But, all this is coming from a guy that doesn't have a match day party (partly because we have two match days, and also because I doubt my school wants us to travel back to the middle of nowhere Missouri). But, it is not going to change this year, so I need to just stop complaining and exercise my patience (again).
I understand there need to be some quality checks for the match to ensure accuracy, but after that is complete, why not just release the results? The SOAP and statistics can be organized afterwards. I can always call/text/FB my result with family and friends and have just as much satisfaction. But, all this is coming from a guy that doesn't have a match day party (partly because we have two match days, and also because I doubt my school wants us to travel back to the middle of nowhere Missouri). But, it is not going to change this year, so I need to just stop complaining and exercise my patience (again).
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At my school, they do.
And since you later referred to them knowing earlier in the week as unfair--I'm fairly certain PDs get their confidential list of matched applicants on Thursday.
Besides my classmates and some underclassmen with an interest, none of my family or friends will be at my Match Day ceremony--they will all find out on FB probably an hour or so after I do (and calm down enough to actually make a post). My parents might get a text earlier than that, but otherwise--people will find out via FB. Most of my classmates will probably find out via FB as well, since we don't announce our matches at our ceremony, we just get our envelopes and open them together.
Course, our school is huge on tradition, but the Match Day Ceremony also encompasses a few other things--the medical student teaching award gets given out, we give our contributions to the class gift, etc. But it's really all about celebrating with our classmates, many of whom we don't see so often any more now that we're scattered to the four winds. It's also the kickoff to essentially a full day of partying--we have our Ceremony, followed by lunch, followed by individual parties, then our giant class party that night, where the rest of the school is invited to celebrate with us.
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We save all those shenanigans for graduation week. But, to each school their own. Perhaps I'll be able to rock out with the pathologists on Match Day. I still think match results could be available sooner, even if it is cutting down the absurd amount of time to certify rank lists (seriously, six weeks??). However, maybe the powers that be do not want us to know sooner because of the laziness that ensues after match day. If only they had an idea of how lazy I've been since interviews have been over. . . .
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We have a completely separate set of things we do during Graduation Week, including a 'reflection ceremony' in which we watch the class movie and hand out yearbooks, commissioning for the military folks, a university wide address, a reception for graduates and families, and then the big graduation day when we have a ceremony for the entire university, and then a diploma ceremony just for the med school (where another dozen awards are given out).
I agree that the amount of time between the end of interviews and certifying rank lists is absurd. Ophtho and Uro match in January, and while that might be a tad early, I really don't see why we can't bump up the general match day by at least 3 weeks just by cutting that period between interviews and rank list certification.
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Yeah, my issue is what the ROL deadline. Most (if not all) places stop interviewing at the end of January. Why do we need another month to figure out our rank lists? A week, maybe. Possibly two. But there's no reason for a four-week gap between the end of interviews and the ROL deadline. Move up the deadline to mid-February. Make Match Week the first week of March.
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I think it's great that most schools have a Match Day ceremony. I mean, really, graduation is a formal event that's filled with speakers, quotes, etc. It's the Match Day ceremony that's the true celebration of your graduation of medical school, the last hurrah. I doubt most require their students to be there so I don't think anyone is forced to go. But for those who want to, I think it's a great tradition.
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This is true according to the NRMP site. I'm not sure why though. aPD, can you shed some light on this? Is it to get contracts ready or something?
That's the programs' decision not the NRMP's. They can have IVs even on the ROL day if they wish. But there is some reason why they don't do that. And having already enough good candidates for ranking can't be the reason. What does it mean? It means shifting ROL earlier would cause end of IVs earlier too... there would still be such a "delay" between end of IV's season and ROL deadline.
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All the more reason to move the ROL deadline up.
Realy? Do you really believe that having ROL in mid-February which would make programs to stop interviewing at mid-January (maybe many would stop by xmas since "two weeks in January can't change many so why not to do our ROL during xmas break and have a free time till match day (ie 1st of March in such a case ie whole 2 months break)") would be better for applicants?
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Many people end up cancelling their January interviews anyway, and my home program this year specifically added interview dates because they got so many more applicants this year than in years past. So, I don't think moving the ROL deadline would affect them much, especially since THEY rank applicants in like the first week in February anyway, and very few changes are made after that. I don't see how programs would complain too much about it.
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Why wouldn't it be? All that means is that interview season would stop sooner. It doesn't mean it wouldn't start sooner or be more compact. It's not like they'd have to take away interview days. Most likely what would happen is that more places would offer October interview dates if they need to. The point I was making was that it's better for the applicants (and programs) to know where they're going sooner rather than later, if even by a few weeks, especially for those who are moving cross country and have families going with them.
They wouldn't complain. Instead of ranking them in first week in February they would do that in third week of January hence minimum (if any) IVs in January. That's just what I'm saying. Nothing more. ROL in mid-February just mean IV season since Oct till xmas instead of Oct till Feb like it's now. It could be good for someone but bad for other... I'm not judging.
Totally agree. Especially since going to move cross the ocean not country
. I'm just not sure that saving these two weeks is better with loosing four weeks of IV season. But maybe it is. But maybe it would be better to move ROL by one week and cut a ROL-to-Match by one week too... again saving totally 2 weeks but not loosing whole January season.
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Unfortunately, everything will be good for someone and bad for others. I'm still not seeing your point.
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Totally agree. Especially since going to move cross the ocean not country
I'm just not sure that saving these two weeks is better with loosing four weeks of IV season. But maybe it is. But maybe it would be better to move ROL by one week and cut a ROL-to-Match by one week too... again saving totally 2 weeks but not loosing whole January season.
How would anyone lose four weeks of interview season?
The point is that you was thinking just about yourself figuring up your ROL not about programs'. That 4 weeks gap isn't there in your favor. It is there because programs want it to be there.
Sry I did an explanation above... there is still going to be 4 weeks gap (or at least 3 weeks) between the end of IV season and ROL no matter when ROL date is.
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Why do you assume that programs want a four-week gap when they finish their rank lists much earlier than applicants do? No, I'm not just thinking about myself. I'm thinking about the Match as a whole. I'm not sure what point you're even trying to make here. I gather it's something about programs being screwed by not having enough time to interview candidates? But that's purely conjecture and unlikely to be a real factor.
So what? As long as the four-week gap is earlier in the year, I don't think that's a major issue.
Not wanting 4 weeks gap = interviewing until ROL... But they don't do that so they have a reason why they act like this so they need and want such a gap... So moving ROL up to mid-Feb means IV season end by xmas.. so instead of Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan you would have only Oct, Nov, Dec ... still having like 10-20 IV for AMG ... so what's better? Maybe your idea but I don't think so... Few weeks ago there was a guy who lost his Match shot b/c of rotation fail b/c he needed to go to IV but didn't get a permission for such a leave. Is it easier to get permission for absence for like 20 days during 3 months or is it easier to manage it during 4 months? In fact.. I don't care... My situation is absolutely different then yours so it's up to you. I just though that you're not thinking about all consequences as you think. Anyway GL!
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If someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they didn't think of the consequences. It simply means that they either don't agree with your consequences or that they do and still disagree with you. Secondly, you're lumping all programs into one category when, in fact, some programs stop interviewing in December. Using your logic, that would mean that those programs want or need 8 weeks before turning in their rank list. That's simply not true. Programs do what is most convenient for them and in some cases, it means interviewing until the start of February, in other cases, it means cutting all interviews off before Christmas. There is no standard universal date for interview season. It starts when programs want to start and ends when programs want to end. Moving the ROL deadline up to mid-February will have the exact same results. Some will stop interviewing in December and some will go up to the first week of February. To say that it will somehow affect interviews and decrease slots is a huge leap in logic not supported by facts.
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well…why not just graduate the day after the match? then you would really have a lot of time to take care of moving... (of course they really are talking about this in the form of reducing med school to 3 years since most of 4th year is spent on interviewing and prepping to move)…like anyone is really doing rotations after Match Day that make much difference.
