Current Views of Chiropractic; What Do You See?

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Notice how he assumes I failed in practice rather than having to admit I quit because of the widespread corruption. You see that a lot, blaming the victim.

I know for a fact that there are former chiros out there who didn't do well in practice, ran into financial hardship and all the bitterness that comes with it, then quit practice and blamed the rest of the profession. It happens. I don't know what happened with you, as I said, so I'll take your word for it. But it sure sounds better to say "the entire chiro profession is (insert pejorative here) and that's why I'm in the situation I'm in..." rather than to say "My practice failed".

Chiro isn't for everyone, for one reason or another. There are plenty of us our here practicing in a responsible fashion, not ripping people off, not killing people, not treating people 3x/week for life, etc. Your blanket statements are simply ill-informed.

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I'd be willing to bet, based on countless interactions here on SDN, that most medical students and even MDs believe in vertebrae jumping out of alignment and that manipulation puts them back in. Are you one of them?

Spondylolisthesis requires more serious attention than the "laying on of hands" to cure the problem; this applies to vertebral dislocations as well.

Oh, but I suppose you were referring to the more "run of the mill" back pain. Well, in that case, most situations are caused by musculoskeletal strain or the rupture of the vertebral disk itself, not the "jumping out of alignment" of verterbrae.
 
I know for a fact that there are former chiros out there who didn't do well in practice, ran into financial hardship and all the bitterness that comes with it, then quit practice and blamed the rest of the profession. It happens. I don't know what happened with you, as I said, so I'll take your word for it. But it sure sounds better to say "the entire chiro profession is (insert pejorative here) and that's why I'm in the situation I'm in..." rather than to say "My practice failed". Chiro isn't for everyone, for one reason or another.

You know this is just a red herring planted to take responsibility off of the field.

There are plenty of us our here practicing in a responsible fashion, not ripping people off, not killing people, not treating people 3x/week for life, etc. Your blanket statements are simply ill-informed.

Poppycock. All DCs have is a hammer so everything they do is geared to nailing (justifying and milling) as many people through the office as possible. That's why this is the common denominator for the scams which recur again and again in new variations-such as subluxation analysis, posture correction, osteoarthritis treatment, etc.
 
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I would say that posture correction (unless I am misunderstanding the term) has its place in terms of utility. However I think it is a little ridiculous to be expected to be paid for it.... and more so to expect the government insurances to pay for it :confused:
 
I would say that posture correction (unless I am misunderstanding the term) has its place in terms of utility. However I think it is a little ridiculous to be expected to be paid for it.... and more so to expect the government insurances to pay for it :confused:

Specter,

I'd agree if they had programs of care that ended with release but instead you have lifetime visits, lifetime exercises and excuses as to why they can't get people to the ideal. I'm not sure if what I wrote before sank in. I've seen scores of lateral cervical xrays where traction couldn't restore a kyphotic cervical curve to normal because the posterior longitudinal ligament was damaged in a car accident so gravity kept the lower neck from reassuming normal position but they tractioned anyway. So what business does chiropractic have doing posture correction if they are just using it as an excuse to drag out futile care?

As it stands posture correction isn't even tested on in their national boards so there is no standardization outside of a few groups that attempt it.

Here's an example, take a look at the lateral xray on the lower right. See the fusion of C6-8 and notice how it prevented cervical curve restoration of all segments above? If they are so concerned about biomechanics why aren't they innovating new ways to fix this rather than using it as an excuse to excessively treat? I don't think a profession should intentionally limit scope to maximize office visits.

http://www.idealspinehealth.com/case-studies/
 
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I may have misunderstood the term then. I have heard people talk about "coaching" they receive from their chiros. Much of it concerning day to day postural habits and things to help with pain.

Tractioning an injury that lacks the support structure to correct itself is silly. And... kinda goes back to the thing I said earlier about the plastic HS bio lab skeleton model.
 
Agreed. I really think we need a field to advance biomechanical spinal problems, the problem is relying on the stepchildren of healthcare to accomplish this. I'd much rather see an evidence based profession take it up and let DCs migrate over.
 
PT is looking into some of the chiro modalities (specifically HVLA, but we will see).

Out of curiosity, did you re-enter healthcare after leaving chiropractic?
 
I haven't read enough to make a fair unbiased claim of the evidence base that different practices within chiropractic have. As far as relations with chiropractors, I have only been a coworker of the wife of one, who was a wonderful social worker, great person, etc. I looked up her husband's practice out of curiosity, and the below is a list of things they say they can help with that fell out of the realm of MSK.

Asthma
Allergies
Hay Fever
Fatigue
Sleeplessness
Menstrual Pain
Digestive Problems
Ear Infections
Low Immunity
Sinus Trouble
Dizziness
Depression
Migraines
Frequent colds / Flu
Bladder control problems

I altered the list slightly to avoid a google search tracing back directly to the practice in question. When I googled that list list of terms to check the results and ensure that his practice wasn't there, all that comes up is chiropractor after chiropractor. With that in mind, it's hard to believe that there isn't systemic chiro education in place that teaches these things.

Facet, which of these are there a solid evidence base for? If chiro has made a systemic change away from teaching the things lacking evidence base, why does a chiropractic board not crackdown on these practitioners?
 
PT is looking into some of the chiro modalities (specifically HVLA, but we will see).

Out of curiosity, did you re-enter healthcare after leaving chiropractic?

A chiropractic degree doesn't transfer easily. I wasn't keen on more debt so I tried working in clinical data management for pharma research then became certified in intraoperative neuromonitoring as a CNIM tech. Working as a tech was humbling, though I know I did more good there in one year than my entire career working as a DC.

Four years ago I contracted a new infection called bartonella like organism from flea bites from a feral cat which disabled me with anxiety, fatigue, muscle pain, impaired immunity, depression, generalized inflammation and light sensitivity bifrontal headaches. I was left with a diagnosis of undifferentiated somatoform disorder. Conventional medicine/infectious disease doesn't recognize the disease so I was left disabled until I found an ILADS lyme literate MD who treated it empirically. Nothing worked until I started taking levaquin. After three weeks it's 30% better so I think I'm going to recover.

I have some entrepreneurial ideas I'd like to pursue when I get well. In particular, I'd like to develop a smartphone app for customized nutrition. I also have a stack of books I want to read.
 
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I haven't read enough to make a fair unbiased claim of the evidence base that different practices within chiropractic have. As far as relations with chiropractors, I have only been a coworker of the wife of one, who was a wonderful social worker, great person, etc. I looked up her husband's practice out of curiosity, and the below is a list of things they say they can help with that fell out of the realm of MSK.



I altered the list slightly to avoid a google search tracing back directly to the practice in question. When I googled that list list of terms to check the results and ensure that his practice wasn't there, all that comes up is chiropractor after chiropractor. With that in mind, it's hard to believe that there isn't systemic chiro education in place that teaches these things.

Facet, which of these are there a solid evidence base for? If chiro has made a systemic change away from teaching the things lacking evidence base, why does a chiropractic board not crackdown on these practitioners?
migraines... maybe... and that is depending on your definition.

I have seen "evidence" for nearly all of those, but they are post hoc attempts to prove efficacy rather than work that discovers efficacy on its own, and in that right they are incredibly biased and poorly controlled.
It should be noted that a few DO organizations are also doing "research" into some of these with OMM. Also poorly controlled and aimed at proving a conclusion rather than testing a hypothesis.
 
Spondylolisthesis requires more serious attention than the "laying on of hands" to cure the problem; this applies to vertebral dislocations as well.

This may be a news flash, but chiropractors actually know what spondylolisthesis and facet dislocations are. Sheesh. Who's talking about dislocated cervical facet joints anyway???

Oh, but I suppose you were referring to the more "run of the mill" back pain. Well, in that case, most situations are caused by musculoskeletal strain or the rupture of the vertebral disk itself, not the "jumping out of alignment" of verterbrae.

Teachable moment: what are the two most likely sources of LBP? ("Musculoskeletal strain" not acceptable)

A disk doesn't have to rupture to be pain-producing, by the way.
 
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This may be a news flash, but chiropractors actually know what spondylolisthesis and facet dislocations are. Sheesh. Who's talking about dislocated cervical facet joints anyway???



Teachable moment: what are the two most likely sources of LBP? ("Musculoskeletal strain" not acceptable)

A disk doesn't have to rupture to be pain-producing, by the way.

no, but you are speaking in technicalities now. It not being ruptured does not affirm the notion of "popped out of place". so...... how is that more relevant than the correctly associated "dislocated cervical facet" statement to the phrase "popped out"? For that matter, who was even talking pain? You said that MDs and med students believe these suckers pop out and can be simply popped back in. According to several posters now that is not a correct statement.

I believe you are searching for disk degeneration, and..... I dunno, something else, I suspect you are going to put kyphosis/lordosis on that list somewhere as well. Do you have any published defense for treatment of such conditions through chiropractic manipulation? Or even your two causes if I missed it here?
 
Specter,

I'd agree if they had programs of care that ended with release but instead you have lifetime visits, lifetime exercises and excuses as to why they can't get people to the ideal. I'm not sure if what I wrote before sank in. I've seen scores of lateral cervical xrays where traction couldn't restore a kyphotic cervical curve to normal because the posterior longitudinal ligament was damaged in a car accident so gravity kept the lower neck from reassuming normal position but they tractioned anyway. So what business does chiropractic have doing posture correction if they are just using it as an excuse to drag out futile care?

As it stands posture correction isn't even tested on in their national boards so there is no standardization outside of a few groups that attempt it.

Here's an example, take a look at the lateral xray on the lower right. See the fusion of C6-8 and notice how it prevented cervical curve restoration of all segments above? If they are so concerned about biomechanics why aren't they innovating new ways to fix this rather than using it as an excuse to excessively treat? I don't think a profession should intentionally limit scope to maximize office visits.

http://www.idealspinehealth.com/case-studies/

This is how confused you are. Above, you mock the chiropractic treatment shown, which is a form of treatment called CBP (for those unfamiliar with chiro). So, CBP bad. Yet, several posts ago, you gave a citation by Don Harrison which supposedly explained that chiropractic techniques are bunk. Sherlock, your guy Don Harrison was the originator of CBP, the technique you just mocked. So which is it? Are you wrong about CBP or are you wrong about the reference you provided in an attempt to "prove" that chiropractic is bunk?

And did you really just point out the C8 vertebra???? Man, it has been awhile for you, eh?
 
This may be a news flash, but chiropractors actually know what spondylolisthesis and facet dislocations are. Sheesh. Who's talking about dislocated cervical facet joints anyway???



Teachable moment: what are the two most likely sources of LBP? ("Musculoskeletal strain" not acceptable)

A disk doesn't have to rupture to be pain-producing, by the way.

If you ask a chiropractor subwuxlation of course.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UucAhzdbrs[/YOUTUBE]
 
This may be a news flash, but chiropractors actually know what spondylolisthesis and facet dislocations are. Sheesh. Who's talking about dislocated cervical facet joints anyway???



Teachable moment: what are the two most likely sources of LBP? ("Musculoskeletal strain" not acceptable)

A disk doesn't have to rupture to be pain-producing, by the way.

I only mentioned those problems because they were the only ones that resembled your notion of "vertebrae jumping themselves out of alignment." Otherwise, what do chiropractic manipulation techniques provide in the way of treatment of said conditions? Especially if "musculoskeletal strain" is not an "acceptable source" of back pain?
 
A chiropractic degree doesn't transfer easily. I wasn't keen on more debt so I tried working in clinical data management for pharma research then became certified in intraoperative neuromonitoring as a CNIM tech. Working as a tech was humbling, though I know I did more good there in one year than my entire career working as a DC.

Four years ago I contracted a new infection called bartonella like organism from flea bites from a feral cat which disabled me with anxiety, fatigue, muscle pain, impaired immunity, depression, generalized inflammation and light sensitivity bifrontal headaches. I was left with a diagnosis of undifferentiated somatoform disorder. Conventional medicine/infectious disease doesn't recognize the disease so I was left disabled until I found an ILADS lyme literate MD who treated it empirically. Nothing worked until I started taking levaquin. After three weeks it's 30% better so I think I'm going to recover.

I have some entrepreneurial ideas I'd like to pursue when I get well. In particular, I'd like to develop a smartphone app for customized nutrition. I also have a stack of books I want to read.

I hope you're right about this. We argue back and forth here, but I do hope you recover some day.
 
This is how confused you are. Above, you mock the chiropractic treatment shown, which is a form of treatment called CBP (for those unfamiliar with chiro). So, CBP bad. Yet, several posts ago, you gave a citation by Don Harrison which supposedly explained that chiropractic techniques are bunk. Sherlock, your guy Don Harrison was the originator of CBP, the technique you just mocked. So which is it? Are you wrong about CBP or are you wrong about the reference you provided in an attempt to "prove" that chiropractic is bunk?

And did you really just point out the C8 vertebra???? Man, it has been awhile for you, eh?

Do you have the citation in question? I am not following those points as closely as I don't need a quote to explain to me which techniques to not hold any faith in. Although it is possible for someone to change their mind (case in point: the guy you are quoting)
and... I chalked the c8 thing up to a typo. You normally don't have fusion along several vertebra without surgery which is kinda outside the scope of you guys anyways. Unless you are using a different definition of "fusion" than I am familiar with.
 
Spec,

He's talking about the citation in the criticism section of the Chiropractic article on wikipedia.

The core concept of traditional chiropractic, vertebral subluxation, is not based on sound science. The biomechanical listing systems taught in chiropractic college technique offerings have been criticized as inaccurate, inadequate and invalid. -Harrison, DE (Feb 1998). "Three-dimensional spinal coupling mechanics: Part I. A review of the literature.". J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 21 (2): 101–13. PMID 9502066[195]

Why do I have to either agree with everything the man said or dismiss it all? He can be right on some things and wrong on others. Being right on one point doesn't prove everything he did. I already discussed why he was right-his observation that the two major biomechanical listing systems, Diversified and Gonstead, ignore most translation movements. However he was wrong about being able to use exercise (active stabilization) to correct defects in passive stabilization (ligaments). He also oversimplified biomechanics by dividing the body into three segments: head-neck, thorax, pelvis-feet and tractioning with a single point fulcrum. This overstresses the contact points and prolongs the number of traction sessions needed.

C8 was a mistake (but yes I've been out of practice since 1998). Regardless, it isn't important because we don't know or particularly care which vertebra are exactly affected anyway from a compressed view like that. My point is just to show how destabilization of lower kyphotic segments makes any attempt at posture correction futile. Spectre got it. You didn't.
 
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no.

Not with the implications in the words you chose. Nor in any way that would result in a scheduled chiro visit. If a vertebra were to jump out of place - physical displacement - if the patient survives (depending on location) it would require more than hand manipulation to put it back in without risking further spinal injury. If a vertebra is being pulled on by tensed or spastic muscles, it will not be "out of place", and manipulation in this sense may impact the muscle tone and resolve pain. MAY. My major beef with the practice, as you know from the times we have discussed the topic, is the claim that chiropractic manipulation has anything at all to do with the skeleton and the extension that this has anything at all to do with the CNS. There are still those within the craft who believe (or pretend to) that there are magical healing messages that travel the spine and apparently they are too large to go through subluxations correctly even when sensation and motor control is intact. Until that notion is dead, decayed, and dumped into a mass grave with other party favors like homeopathy, naturopathy, and reflexology the entire profession is suspect :shrug: Whether you personally buy it or not.

Of course chiropractic manipulation has something to do with the skeleton. Manipulation involves movement of bones, i.e. skeleton. Contact points are bones, i.e. skeleton. This isn't even worth arguing.

Now the CNS thing isn't so obvious, although you're wrong there too. When a joint capsule is stretched during an HVLA maneuver, what happens? Hint: think mechanoreceptors. Roll that around a bit and you'll begin to see that it's by the actions on the CNS that many of manipulation's effects come to be.

Interestingly, there was a study done last year, albeit a very small study in what might be a small journal (although indexed in Pubmed), where they looked at changes on PET scans after cervical manipulation. Doesn't prove much by itself but neat nonetheless and illustrative that something's happening at the higher centers. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22314714

There's also a pair of researchers who have been looking at the effects of manip on higher centers. Mostly only hypothesis generating at this point but interesting and clearly beyond just cracking noises coming from the spine. Here are a couple recent citations:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20534312
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17137836

This RCT from a few months ago, aside from again showing manipulation to be effective for chronic LBP, suggests further research into the cortical effects of manipulation to help figure out exactly why it works:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/13/162

We're not there yet, but science marches on!
 
We're not there yet, but science marches on!

Translation, "let me wow you with with inconclusive poppycock research while I and the rest of my colleagues continue to mislead patients into letting me treat their nonexistent subwuxations in my office."
 
Of course chiropractic manipulation has something to do with the skeleton. Manipulation involves movement of bones, i.e. skeleton. Contact points are bones, i.e. skeleton. This isn't even worth arguing.
Chiropractic manipulation has as much to do with the skeletal system as ID has to do with the vascular system just because that is a component involved in your "delivery". the manipulation leaves the skeleton in exactly the same orientation that it was in before "treatment". If you want to capitalize on the soft tissue effects that is fine, but I suspect you knew where I was going in the quote you underlined (and if not.... :eek::oops:)

Now the CNS thing isn't so obvious, although you're wrong there too. When a joint capsule is stretched during an HVLA maneuver, what happens? Hint: think mechanoreceptors. Roll that around a bit and you'll begin to see that it's by the actions on the CNS that many of manipulation's effects come to be.
Calling mechanoreceptors CNS is as bad as the C8 thing earlier... maybe worse because there is no way to typo that one away :thumbup: A core tenet of chiropractic has to do with the inability for proper signal transduction between the spinal cord and the rest of the body. Even ignoring your oversight here doesn't even approach the core problem here.
Interestingly, there was a study done last year, albeit a very small study in what might be a small journal (although indexed in Pubmed), where they looked at changes on PET scans after cervical manipulation. Doesn't prove much by itself but neat nonetheless and illustrative that something's happening at the higher centers. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22314714

There's also a pair of researchers who have been looking at the effects of manip on higher centers. Mostly only hypothesis generating at this point but interesting and clearly beyond just cracking noises coming from the spine. Here are a couple recent citations:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20534312
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17137836

This RCT from a few months ago, aside from again showing manipulation to be effective for chronic LBP, suggests further research into the cortical effects of manipulation to help figure out exactly why it works:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/13/162

We're not there yet, but pseudoscience marches on!

I am off to read your links now... but IIRC you don't have a good batting average when it comes to posting research. The problem is fundamental (and why I felt the need to edit your post slightly). "science" does not set out to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. Countless studies find chiropractic to be inefficacious by any metric or efficacious only under deliberate misrepresentation or mishandling of the data. And these "researchers" "march on" in continued attempts to prove something that any real scientist would have abandoned a long time ago.


re: "why it works"
:smack:
The big secret here.... because it feels damn good to have someone crank on you for a little bit. It is also transient which is what results in the lifelong patient model (and.... with the increase in "preventative chiropractics" being practiced, please do not insult my or your own intelligence by arguing that such a model is not the norm). Why it works.... This is yet another example of the pseudoscience that sets out to prove itself right rather than discover the truth about something.
 
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Paper 1: I can get that same result by giving someone some chewing gum. Seriously. Mapping increased activity to the pre-frontal after performing anything on a patient and having the patient aware of an expected before/after result will do this. There is no conclusion to be drawn here except "the brain continues to work even after chiropractic manipulation".
Also, "cingulated cortex"..... wtf... whatever the case, they are doing the pseudoscientific sin of assuming causation:
Conclusion The results of this study suggest that CSM affects regional cerebral glucose metabolism related to sympathetic relaxation and pain reduction.

Paper 2: I'm not even sure how they explain their experimental design or why they think it is tied to anything.... Nothing in this paper seems to be built on any actual physiological principles defended by literature non-chiro produced...

Paper 3: same problem.... They seem to be suggesting that spinal manipulation leads to brain chemistry changes. The issue: no definitive mechanism even proposed. This is what pseudoscience does.
1)manipulation
2)measure stuff
3)???????
4)Profit!

It is insufficient to record "significant" differences among an n=~10 sample. This leads me to another major problem with the profession in that they refuse to look critically at their own practices. They assume themselves to be correct and fit the data as they see fit. Altered brain chemistry or signaling happens all the time. There are no (not any) controls in these tests. They can't even say with any certainty that it isn't just normal fluctuations or the result of repeated measurements causing their findings (or maybe they did and hid it?)
 
Chiropractic manipulation has as much to do with the skeletal system as ID has to do with the vascular system just because that is a component involved in your "delivery". the manipulation leaves the skeleton in exactly the same orientation that it was in before "treatment". If you want to capitalize on the soft tissue effects that is fine, but I suspect you knew where I was going in the quote you underlined (and if not.... :eek::oops:)

I see. You meant that manip doesn't inherently change the skeleton. That's a fair statement. I didn't think you could mean that manip has nothing to do with the skeleton. Moving on...


Calling mechanoreceptors CNS is as bad as the C8 thing earlier... maybe worse because there is no way to typo that one away :thumbup:

Mechanoreceptors provide afferent info to the _____________. Fill in the blank. I'll give you a dollar if you come up with an answer that doesn't include the CNS.

A core tenet of chiropractic has to do with the inability for proper signal transduction between the spinal cord and the rest of the body. Even ignoring your oversight here doesn't even approach the core problem here.

If we are saying that the inability for proper signal transduction is due to a bone that has slipped out of place and is compressing the cord or a spinal nerve, then I'd reply that this is the old way of thinking. A newer way of thinking, at least in part, still involves proper signal transduction but in the form of reduced afferentation from our friends the mechanoreceptors and the impact that has on pain, joint position sense, joint loading, surrounding muscle firing, motor programming, etc.


I am off to read your links now... but IIRC you don't have a good batting average when it comes to posting research. The problem is fundamental (and why I felt the need to edit your post slightly). "science" does not set out to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. Countless studies find chiropractic to be inefficacious by any metric or efficacious only under deliberate misrepresentation or mishandling of the data. And these "researchers" "march on" in continued attempts to prove something that any real scientist would have abandoned a long time ago.

So chiro is damned if we do and damned if we don't do research.

What is that "something" that any real scientist would have abandoned a long time ago? Explain that, and don't give me something about old concepts of subluxations; that's not where the current scientific literature is going at all. As an example, the Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology, not a chiro-centered journal, recently featured a bunch of chiro-related studies/reviews/etc. not because chiros are full of crap but because there's an important base of literature that's been developing over the last couple of decades.

(Parenthetically, what are your views on drug trials? Are they too all fundamentally flawed because they are setting out to prove a pre-conceived conclusion?)
 
I see. You meant that manip doesn't inherently change the skeleton. That's a fair statement. I didn't think you could mean that manip has nothing to do with the skeleton. Moving on...




Mechanoreceptors provide afferent info to the _____________. Fill in the blank. I'll give you a dollar if you come up with an answer that doesn't include the CNS.
Don't defend this statement. Just... dont. You prove everything I have said right.

"central nervous system" and "peripheral nervous system" have distinct definitions. So again.... do not defend this statement :smack:

If we are saying that the inability for proper signal transduction is due to a bone that has slipped out of place and is compressing the cord or a spinal nerve, then I'd reply that this is the old way of thinking. A newer way of thinking, at least in part, still involves proper signal transduction but in the form of reduced afferentation from our friends the mechanoreceptors and the impact that has on pain, joint position sense, joint loading, surrounding muscle firing, motor programming, etc.




So chiro is damned if we do and damned if we don't do research.

What is that "something" that any real scientist would have abandoned a long time ago? Explain that, and don't give me something about old concepts of subluxations; that's not where the current scientific literature is going at all. As an example, the Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology, not a chiro-centered journal, recently featured a bunch of chiro-related studies/reviews/etc. not because chiros are full of crap but because there's an important base of literature that's been developing over the last couple of decades.
The "something" the quest to prove techniques as valid rather than accept them as incidental. so much effort is going into proving chiro right as chiro says it and as chiro has done it. I have said in every one of our conversations that I think there IS something behind SOME of what chiropractors do. I just think they are too focused on proving the whole enchilada - much of which is unprovable or blatantly false - that no ground is ever gained.

(Parenthetically, what are your views on drug trials? Are they too all fundamentally flawed because they are setting out to prove a pre-conceived conclusion?)
You misunderstand what drug trials do. Yes, there are biased ones out there, but the differences from chiropractic "research" are:
1) a coherent mechanisms rather than incidental findings (in most cases. Those which don't are still held to high standards of efficacy).
2)High standards of efficacy
3)high standards of safety weighted against the efficacy. Chiro is plenty safe most of the time, but when weighed against proven efficacy..... it fails miserably.

Trials do not attempt to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. They fairly test in a CONTROLLED fashion with proper statistics and sample sizes and report the findings as they fall (and if not they risk retraction.... which is bad).

To compare drug trials to the work you cited demonstrates only further that chiropractors are not scientists.
 
Spec,

I think there comes a time when you have to realize that you're just not going to convince someone you're debating with because the material is over their head. This is such a time.

Anyway, I'm impressed at the level of knowledge regarding research interpretation that you have for being a resident. If all the programs at teaching this well medical education has come far.
 
I am a medical student, but thank you.

And...you aren't new here by any means, but you must not be too familiar with my involvement in threads :smuggrin:
I don't have any hopes of convincing facetguy of anything. On occasion he and I see eye to eye, more often than not we dont. Its been the name of the game for several threads like this. But with any luck those who are lurking will learn something, gain some ammo for their own discussions, or gain a new perspective. It isn't necessarily about making Facetguy see things my way.
 
That's my goal in posting as well. It just gets tiresome dealing with hecklers who aren't objective.
 
I will give facetguy this; you can't exactly knock chiro research for trying to "prove a point" instead of gathering data to then make a point based on that. Drug companies do that all the time, and the intention of the research doesn't change the outcome. Besides, for all we know chiros are just trying to figure out the mechanism behind the treatments they have been using for a very long time, trying to see what causes the effects they observe.

But, that aside, I have the same criticism with those experiments I also have with 90% of chiro research; terrible experimental design. The controls in the two papers I looked at are just terrible. Why don't I ever seen physical therapy directly compared to manipulation? How about compared to just plain old massage therapy?
 
If you have terrible design then you can keep dragging out things with more studies. Why would DCs do anything that would risk definitively making them look bad?
 
I will give facetguy this; you can't exactly knock chiro research for trying to "prove a point" instead of gathering data to then make a point based on that. Drug companies do that all the time, and the intention of the research doesn't change the outcome. Besides, for all we know chiros are just trying to figure out the mechanism behind the treatments they have been using for a very long time, trying to see what causes the effects they observe.

But, that aside, I have the same criticism with those experiments I also have with 90% of chiro research; terrible experimental design. The controls in the two papers I looked at are just terrible. Why don't I ever seen physical therapy directly compared to manipulation? How about compared to just plain old massage therapy?

that is what keeps me from comparing that research the pharma research. In pharma research the question isn't ever really about proving that it works. That is usually well defended or even established well before clinical trials start. They have the molecular and animal work which points very strongly at efficacy. The question in clinical trials is "is it safe". This is quite different than the chiro papers which strive to show efficacy by neglecting key controls.
 
that is what keeps me from comparing that research the pharma research. In pharma research the question isn't ever really about proving that it works. That is usually well defended or even established well before clinical trials start. They have the molecular and animal work which points very strongly at efficacy. The question in clinical trials is "is it safe". This is quite different than the chiro papers which strive to show efficacy by neglecting key controls.

That's a good point.
 
Don't get me wrong. I don't have any love for big pharma companies nor do I think they are above some solid bulls***, but I think the BS they are guilty of is decidedly different from that of the pseudoscientists.
 
Don't defend this statement. Just... dont. You prove everything I have said right.

"central nervous system" and "peripheral nervous system" have distinct definitions. So again.... do not defend this statement :smack:

Either we've entered the Twilight Zone, or you and I are miscommunicating. When peripheral mechanoreceptors fire, where does that information end up? The North F*cking Pole??? NO!! The CNS, of course. Are you saying something different? Remember, we're not talking about a nerve being pinched by a mean old bone out of place.

The "something" the quest to prove techniques as valid rather than accept them as incidental. so much effort is going into proving chiro right as chiro says it and as chiro has done it. I have said in every one of our conversations that I think there IS something behind SOME of what chiropractors do. I just think they are too focused on proving the whole enchilada - much of which is unprovable or blatantly false - that no ground is ever gained.

Of course there's something behind what chiros do; we are in agreement there. But I think you are misrepresenting chiro-related research a little. Over the years, there have been different types of studies done. This includes the basic science/mechanistic stuff as well as the clinical trials. Perhaps you've got the impression that all chiro research comes down to "this specific technique is better than this other technique...", which isn't at all the case. Technique-specific studies aren't that common, in fact. There have been a few trials here and there that compared one specific technique (i.e., way of going about manipulating), but these aren't considered the more important studies. One such trial (going from memory here) compared the typical HVLA manip to flexion-distraction manip and found little difference in outcomes. Getting back to the clinical trials, these became more popular because of demand for evidence-based practices a couple decades ago; that's why there are so many of them now. Not because all other research has been abandoned or neglected.

When we talk about those studies trying to figure out the effects on central integration/higher centers/etc, these fall more into the basic science of things, trying to figure out mechanisms. As I stated when I posted those links, they are mostly hypothesis generating at this point. You can criticize the methods, as you will, but there's lots of these studies that don't "prove" anything per se but add to our overall understanding of how manipulation works. Much of this work, by the way, is done outside the profession. But those chiros who are working in this area tend not to be clinicians but researchers/scientists, some of whom are DC,PhDs. The everyday MD clinician is no research-level scientist either.


You misunderstand what drug trials do. Yes, there are biased ones out there, but the differences from chiropractic "research" are:
1) a coherent mechanisms rather than incidental findings (in most cases. Those which don't are still held to high standards of efficacy).
2)High standards of efficacy
3)high standards of safety weighted against the efficacy. Chiro is plenty safe most of the time, but when weighed against proven efficacy..... it fails miserably.

Trials do not attempt to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. They fairly test in a CONTROLLED fashion with proper statistics and sample sizes and report the findings as they fall (and if not they risk retraction.... which is bad).

To compare drug trials to the work you cited demonstrates only further that chiropractors are not scientists.

Drug trials, especially the larger effectiveness trials, absolutely attempt to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. "Our drug works, so start prescribing it and using it". Yes, the efficacy work has already been done. But make no mistake: in many cases, these trials are set up to place the drug in the best light. There's been a lot written about this in recent years, which may have understandably escaped a busy medical student. Over break, look up Ben Goldacre, Marcia Angell, Jon Abramson, David Healy...these are off the cuff names, so there are certainly others. Anyway, chiro studies DO look at basic mechanisms, have looked at basic efficacy, but also include effectiveness and safety trials too.
 
That's my goal in posting as well. It just gets tiresome dealing with hecklers who aren't objective.

Did you really just say that? You, sir, are the LEAST objective person on all of SDN. You are completely blinded by bitterness and bias. Don't give me that 'objective' crap.
 
Back to the ad homs I see. I guess the chiropractic critics win. Given the poor defense you've given you really should be ashamed of using them. :nono:

Just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean that they haven't objectively considered the evidence.

And even if I was a "practice failure", this wouldn't prove that chiropractic's rationale is anything but exploitive quackery and systemic corruption.

Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out. I recommend selling pretzels after chiropractic implodes.
 
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I will give facetguy this; you can't exactly knock chiro research for trying to "prove a point" instead of gathering data to then make a point based on that. Drug companies do that all the time, and the intention of the research doesn't change the outcome. Besides, for all we know chiros are just trying to figure out the mechanism behind the treatments they have been using for a very long time, trying to see what causes the effects they observe.

But, that aside, I have the same criticism with those experiments I also have with 90% of chiro research; terrible experimental design. The controls in the two papers I looked at are just terrible. Why don't I ever seen physical therapy directly compared to manipulation? How about compared to just plain old massage therapy?

Ah, but you do:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20053720
Spinal manipulation compared with back school and with individually delivered physiotherapy for the treatment of chronic low back pain: a randomized trial with one-year follow-up.

"CONCLUSIONS:

Spinal manipulation provided better short and long-term functional improvement, and more pain relief in the follow-up than either back school or individual physiotherapy."


There are some others.
 
Either we've entered the Twilight Zone, or you and I are miscommunicating. When peripheral mechanoreceptors fire, where does that information end up? The North F*cking Pole??? NO!! The CNS, of course. Are you saying something different? Remember, we're not talking about a nerve being pinched by a mean old bone out of place.



Of course there's something behind what chiros do; we are in agreement there. But I think you are misrepresenting chiro-related research a little. Over the years, there have been different types of studies done. This includes the basic science/mechanistic stuff as well as the clinical trials. Perhaps you've got the impression that all chiro research comes down to "this specific technique is better than this other technique...", which isn't at all the case. Technique-specific studies aren't that common, in fact. There have been a few trials here and there that compared one specific technique (i.e., way of going about manipulating), but these aren't considered the more important studies. One such trial (going from memory here) compared the typical HVLA manip to flexion-distraction manip and found little difference in outcomes. Getting back to the clinical trials, these became more popular because of demand for evidence-based practices a couple decades ago; that's why there are so many of them now. Not because all other research has been abandoned or neglected.

When we talk about those studies trying to figure out the effects on central integration/higher centers/etc, these fall more into the basic science of things, trying to figure out mechanisms. As I stated when I posted those links, they are mostly hypothesis generating at this point. You can criticize the methods, as you will, but there's lots of these studies that don't "prove" anything per se but add to our overall understanding of how manipulation works. Much of this work, by the way, is done outside the profession. But those chiros who are working in this area tend not to be clinicians but researchers/scientists, some of whom are DC,PhDs. The everyday MD clinician is no research-level scientist either.




Drug trials, especially the larger effectiveness trials, absolutely attempt to prove a pre-conceived conclusion. "Our drug works, so start prescribing it and using it". Yes, the efficacy work has already been done. But make no mistake: in many cases, these trials are set up to place the drug in the best light. There's been a lot written about this in recent years, which may have understandably escaped a busy medical student. Over break, look up Ben Goldacre, Marcia Angell, Jon Abramson, David Healy...these are off the cuff names, so there are certainly others. Anyway, chiro studies DO look at basic mechanisms, have looked at basic efficacy, but also include effectiveness and safety trials too.

You're off your game pops. If you are trying to "school' me on the basis that nerves all connect up well :smack: but just because they feed into the CNS doesnt mean that your treatment is affecting the CNS in any way. You are really only showing me that chiro training is worse than I thought if you have difficulty discerning between the peripheral and central nervous systems simply because they hook to each other. Since you like the analogies so much: Is the road in front of your house an interstate simply because it connects up to one? The papers you are citing are making the claim that because there is a change in the CNS (reported as significant, but god knows how they came up with that with their n value....) that the treatments must be eliciting their responses in the CNS. Fun fact, the CNS changes constantly under all manner of situations. On the PET scan paper, at the numbers they were using (and the severe lack of controls), it would only have taken 1 guy to be holding in a fart to throw the results completely off. They do not establish causation. The DOs at least teach this. I still find the therapies to be inefficacious, but hey, at least they track it down to a reasonable mechanism rather than pretend they are changing brain chemistry with a back rub :thumbdown:. Your manipulations are registered in the CNS but that is about it. You could make a case that we are dealing with reflex arcs which would also be reasonable AND be concerned with the CNS, but I wouldn't if I were you.... because spinal reflex arcs don't have anything to do with the brain and going down this road would only show further that your researchers have no idea what they are doing.
 
Ah, but you do:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20053720
Spinal manipulation compared with back school and with individually delivered physiotherapy for the treatment of chronic low back pain: a randomized trial with one-year follow-up.

"CONCLUSIONS:

Spinal manipulation provided better short and long-term functional improvement, and more pain relief in the follow-up than either back school or individual physiotherapy."


There are some others.

um..... read the numbers that are in there. They are (once again) reporting on insignificant findings.

Do you know what it actually means when a finding is insignificant? It isnt fancy science talk for "too little to worry about".......
 
Spec,

Aside from the fact that this was a study about PTs treating low back pain and not DCs adjusting subluxations...(remember DCs don't treat disease).

For those of use without access to the full study could you please elaborate on what was insignificant? I can't tell from the summary.
 
Their reported values couldn't possibly be significant given the overlap in the error.

Pain reduction on the subjective scale was reported as ~1 +/- 1.1 in nearly every category. If you ran stats on these results you would get a p value easily over .5 (that is a guess, but feels pretty safe with how close they are and the fact that the variance is nearly as large as the magnitude of change). Mathematically this means that there is very low probability that the findings in any category are in any way distinct from each other. They called it a finding, but the math says they reported 3 groups with identical results.

If you notice, the only p values they report are for unrelated findings - # back school patient followup visits or alternative therapies, crap like that. They fit in a significant p value hoping the skimmer won't catch it but the actual results are lacking in reported statistics. If these were odd ratios or hazard ratios things may be a little different, but these are first order reductions in subjective reporting making everything about the study just worthless. Being indexed by pubmed doesn't mean anything either. Nearly everything shows up on pubmed. They are a gnats ass away from indexing bloggers. The value in pubmed comes after knowing how to discriminate the papers.
 
I see your point about the pain scores. What do you make of the central point of the study-that manipulation reduced disability scores? That seems consistent with the known effects of HVLA manips for LBP.
 
They didnt report significance values, only raw values. I am pretty certain they are also insignificant. The variance in all of those overlap quite a bit. While you can't just look at it like that and assume that means the difference is insignificant, it is a pretty good indicator. The omission of stats also makes me question the validity of any of it at all.... At this point who is to say their pain survey wasnt biased in its writing? I have seen similar things in other papers where surveys will include things things specific to one group but not another. One DO paper was trying to prove a more holistic approach by DO doctors, and their survey included several questions phrased like "the physician verbally described the core osteopathic tenets during the encounter", and when lo and behold the DOs scored higher on said survey the AOA published a paper saying they were more holistic :rolleyes:. I could write a survey phrased such that only the wording will impact the results. It is actually pretty easy.
 
Now back to facetguy. Why did you fail to carefully analyse the study presented? Was it because you just suck at research analysis because this isn't taught well in chiropractic school and you either didn't know about your deficit or just don't care enough about doing good research to remediate yourself?
 
When facetguy and I argue this he typically only posts abstracts. You need either a paid account or university access to full text, so his batting average with pubs is pretty low. I can say this with absolute certainty - if chiropractic found something of real value in their research to support their claims it would be able to be published in a US journal of relatively high impact. The major problems are always either poor experimental design/controls or overstated or exaggerated conclusions based on scant evidence. Such papers routinely get tossed out in review.
 
So he's using SDN as a soapbox to make his field look good. Why does anyone here take him seriously?
 
Specter, let me just say that I've read the past page and a half (from when it was re-brought up yesterday), and let me just say that based on this thread and others I have read from you (even ones that we've disagreed on) I think you are going to make one hell of a doctor. :thumbup:

Your ability and willingness to show shoddy research for what it is trying to represent against someone who is clearly not reading them to the same extent you are, is awesome.

Just wanted to drop in and say I agree with you, and cdmguy (although I will admit I think he has a larger bias on the topic than you), while disagreeing with facetguy about chiropractors doing anything that affects the brain in a significant manner. They treat muscle pain. If I had chronic lower back pain that couldn't be explained by X-ray/MRI, then sure, maybe I'd go see a chiro for it. If I had neck pain, no chiro is touching me, period.
 
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