Current Views of Chiropractic; What Do You See?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Op,

You are entirely correct. Just to pre-empt any apologetics and denials.

Notice how they treat disease while disclaiming treating disease (aka the subluxation diagnosis scam)

Here's the leading chiropractic pediatrics association:

http://icpa4kids.org/Wellness-Artic...ections-what-we-offer-makes-a-difference.html

Chiropractic and Ear Infections: What We Offer Makes a Difference

Labels: Issue #23, Chiropractic for Life, Author Jeanne Ohm, DC

Many parents bring their children into our office asking us to treat their ear infections. My first response is that the purpose of chiropractic care is not the treatment of conditions or diseases; rather, it is the restoration of normal body function. I explain that as chiropractors, we work with the nervous system via gentle spinal adjustments. We reduce stress related interference to the nervous system, thereby enhancing all overall body function. I further explain that all systems of the body—muscular, glandular, respiratory, circulatory, digestive, eliminatory, hormonal and immunological—depend on the optimal function of the nervous system. With chiropractic, we focus on nerve system function to enhance all the body's systems.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Or maybe...just maybe...they are satisfied with their experience?? Could it be? And these studies usually tie satisfaction with outcome, so something is working for these people. Yes, I know, it's all placebo, or it's the spell we cast upon all of our patients, or something. (Don't tell anybody, but the trick is to mix the Cool-Aid just strong enough to control their minds but not kill them. ;))

I don't find the 2 to be mutually exclusive. it depends on if you define placebo as working.

So of course they're satisfied

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile
 
What med school are you at? You sure seem to have a lot of time to visit chiro offices.

But, I agree with you on the over zealous nature of anti-vaccination talk, far out therapies and medical bashing. Most of this comes from the same place you are coming from... Ignorance. Chiros are not taught the medical model and its theories, etc. therefore when the authority figures in chiro say something wacky, there sheep go along with it. No unlike the "only medicine is the answer" montra of physicians. You preach what you know, which at your level isn't much. It is soooo funny to see so many medical practices trying to be more alternative and natural, yet so many alternative health clinics trying to be more medical.


I'm an M4 done with most of my interviews. I will not apologize to you for enjoying this brief respite! :laugh: The chiro shares a waiting room with other providers (of completely different persuasions which I was involved with) and you can hear her speaking with patients from the waiting room. I am under the impression that it's just one big room at the end of a short hall with a constantly open door because you can hear the entire conversation and the next patient often says "hey I heard you talking about X with the last patient tell me more about that." It's kind of weird.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "only medicine is the answer" mantra. We are taught conservative or expectant management for most common illnesses. Otitis Media? Wait a few days because it is likely viral and will resolve without treatment. Soft tissue injury? Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation. Common Cold? Chicken soup. Strep throat? ANTIBIOTICS because they decrease the incidence of rheumatic heart disease.

We probably agree on 3/4 of those and most chiropractors I've talked to would quote me some study to about antibiotics disrupt the body's pH and electric balance and worsen disease even in the face of insurmountable evidence that they should be used to avoid post-streptococcal disease. But THAT is the model that we are taught - diagnose thoroughly and treat when necessary and give extreme preference to the best studied and most efficacious treatments. We're all worried about polypharmacy, overuse of radiologic testing, etc - we are actively trying to solve the problems that arise from too much 'medical' care. Conversely, there is absolutely no drive from Chiropractors to stop selling disproven BS. We have a chiropractor in my area that bills himself as a "thyroid specialist." You walk into that office, you get diagnosed with a 'thyroid dysfunction' and you leave after having your neck manipulated - which would do nothing for you even if you HAD a real thyroid issue.

Now if you mean "medicine is the only answer" as in "things that have been studied and validated extensively should supercede treatments that are unproven, disproven, and scientifically implausible given our current understand of the body" then yes, medicine is the answer and it includes Chiropractic care for mild musculoskelatal complaints in the absence of contraindications.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
What med school are you at? You sure seem to have a lot of time to visit chiro offices.

But, I agree with you on the over zealous nature of anti-vaccination talk, far out therapies and medical bashing. Most of this comes from the same place you are coming from... Ignorance. Chiros are not taught the medical model and its theories, etc. therefore when the authority figures in chiro say something wacky, there sheep go along with it. No unlike the "only medicine is the answer" montra of physicians. You preach what you know, which at your level isn't much. It is soooo funny to see so many medical practices trying to be more alternative and natural, yet so many alternative health clinics trying to be more medical.
An "Attending Chiropractor?" Really? Once you manage residents that manage medical students, that title and your tone towards them may become more appropriate. I've been trying to arbitrate between the whole DC and DO pissing match here, but I had to say something...
 
I don't find the 2 to be mutually exclusive. it depends on if you define placebo as working.

So of course they're satisfied

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

No doubt the clinical encounter is comprised of multiple factors. These patient satisfaction studies/surveys have included any number of metrics, from harder endpoints like outcomes to softer measures like a sense that the provider listened to them. So the issue of placebo does get clouded, true. But there have been a number of such reports over the years, from those published in medical journals to a Consumer Reports survey/study.

But the reflex response on the part of some that chiropractic care is just automatically placebo and can't possibly be actually helping anyone is what I object to.
 
I am going to try to be as objective as I can be on here.. something many of you need to try. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance of other professions.

Background: Chiropractor for 12 years, MD for 4, MBA 6 years.

I practiced as a chiropractor for a few years and loved most of it. I opened 3 separate clinics and employed other chiros, MD's, DO's, PT's, and massage therapists. However, I realized that I wanted to know more and do more, so I sold everything and went back to med school (joint MBA program). Now I am in neurology (MSK and some pain).

An "Attending Chiropractor?" Really? Once you manage residents that manage medical students, that title and your tone towards them may become more appropriate. I've been trying to arbitrate between the whole DC and DO pissing match here, but I had to say something...

JG, I think you missed some biographical detail from DCMBAMD.
 
JG, I think you missed some biographical detail from DCMBAMD.
As I said, I read the entire thread and saw nowhere that he was actively involved in the training of medical students or residents, and it may be a small issue of semantics, but attending usually means the aforementioned qualifications. Practice owners and contracted physicians are just that and none of these gives someone from any field to talk down to people from a field that has an fully unrestricted medical license. Ask him how many injections of saline, lidocaine or steroids he or his fellow DCs could do on patients when he was in their world, no matter how useful. Absolutely zero. The fact that they had to use those odd electric osmosis machines to get around this rule, at least from what I saw, underlies my argument. He made the choice to jump into our world and should leave his former roots behind.
 
As I said, I read the entire thread and saw nowhere that he was actively involved in the training of medical students or residents, and it may be a small issue of semantics, but attending usually means the aforementioned qualifications. Practice owners and contracted physicians are just that and none of these gives someone from any field to talk down to people from a field that has an fully unrestricted medical license. Ask him how many injections of saline, lidocaine or steroids he or his fellow DCs could do on patients when he was in their world, no matter how useful. Absolutely zero. The fact that they had to use those odd electric osmosis machines to get around this rule, at least from what I saw, underlies my argument. He made the choice to jump into our world and should leave his former roots behind.

It sounded as though you missed the MD part, especially when you wrote "Attending Chiropractor? Really?". But DCMBAMD can speak for himself.

Do DCs anywhere do injections of saline, lidocaine or steroids? I don't understand the point of your comment. Are you implying that only these things are useful to the exclusion of anything else? Please clarify.

And why would someone who had mostly positive experiences as a DC 'leave that behind' now that he's an MD? That doesn't make sense, unless we're talking about CDMguy who obviously harbors tremendous resentment and bitterness toward chiropractic.
 
It sounded as though you missed the MD part, especially when you wrote "Attending Chiropractor? Really?". But DCMBAMD can speak for himself.

Do DCs anywhere do injections of saline, lidocaine or steroids? I don't understand the point of your comment. Are you implying that only these things are useful to the exclusion of anything else? Please clarify.

And why would someone who had mostly positive experiences as a DC 'leave that behind' now that he's an MD? That doesn't make sense, unless we're talking about CDMguy who obviously harbors tremendous resentment and bitterness toward chiropractic.
DCs, unless there has been a huge change in the law, aren't even allowed to do injections. This includes the trigger point treatments for tough ones that can't be fixed in other ways, or any vaccines, if they're truly trying to jump into preventative medicine now. MDs and DOs use all kinds of minimally invasive treatments, such as injections and it says volumes that the DCs are not even allowed to do that. I'm not going to get dragged into fighting with either side. You've got thousands of posts on this site, so I'm assuming that you've at least started medical school, I'm sure you can figure out how to search for what DOs and DCs can and can't do for yourself.

DOs and DCs are the butt of many jokes and ridicule in our fields and I was drawing analogies between the two so that we could find some common ground before it descended into what it is now. If you want to continue this sparring match with him, you can interview him or maybe the original poster to see if he got what he needed from his post and move on if he did.
 
Well if it does stay adversarial feel free to share some good DC jokes.

How many chiropractors does it take to change a lightbulb?

It only takes one chiropractor to change a lightbulb, but it takes nine visits.
And it's not covered by your insurance.​

What do you call a chiropractor who makes a 50k/yr salary and has a 500k student loan debt?


PS-I wouldn't assume F has any medical school under his belt whatsoever.​
 
Last edited:
Well if it does stay adversarial feel free to share some good DC jokes.

How many chiropractors does it take to change a lightbulb?

It only takes one chiropractor to change a lightbulb, but it takes nine visits.
And it's not covered by your insurance.​

PS-I wouldn't assume F has any medical school under his belt whatsoever.

The version of the joke I heard was it only takes one but he has to change the bulb 3x/week for the rest of your life. :laugh:
 
You're right, that's more accurate.
 
DCs, unless there has been a huge change in the law, aren't even allowed to do injections. This includes the trigger point treatments for tough ones that can't be fixed in other ways, or any vaccines, if they're truly trying to jump into preventative medicine now. MDs and DOs use all kinds of minimally invasive treatments, such as injections and it says volumes that the DCs are not even allowed to do that.

The reason I asked you to clarify is exactly that: chiros don't do injections, so I wasn't sure what you meant. And when you say "not allowed to do injections", I would restate that as it's not in our scope of practice or philosophy as we are a conservative, non-invasive profession. I'm also "not allowed" to do open heart surgery. That doesn't mean we're anti-invasive treatments; I refer patients to pain guys fairly often.

I'm not going to get dragged into fighting with either side. You've got thousands of posts on this site, so I'm assuming that you've at least started medical school, I'm sure you can figure out how to search for what DOs and DCs can and can't do for yourself.

DOs and DCs are the butt of many jokes and ridicule in our fields and I was drawing analogies between the two so that we could find some common ground before it descended into what it is now. If you want to continue this sparring match with him, you can interview him or maybe the original poster to see if he got what he needed from his post and move on if he did.

This isn't fighting. It's an exchange of ideas (and maybe a little clarification of misinformation thrown in on the side. :))
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Agreed, the guy probably isn't in medical school at all.

It only takes one DO to screw in the lightbulb, but it takes half a day since he makes sure he installs the wholelightbulb...

The DO may install it quickly, but owes it dinner for the way he touched it while doing so.
Ischiorectal release...

These are poorly reproduced versions of ones thrown around under the influence, so I apologize for them.

The Gimp
 
Agreed, the guy probably isn't in medical school at all.

It only takes one DO to screw in the lightbulb, but it takes half a day since he makes sure he installs the wholelightbulb...

The DO may install it quickly, but owes it dinner for the way he touched it while doing so.
Ischiorectal release...

These are poorly reproduced versions of ones thrown around under the influence, so I apologize for them.

The Gimp

There was probably some execution left to be desired, but I still LOL'ed. Thanks!
 
The chiropractor my wife went to the other day sent her a care package. In it was a couple of these "Adjustmints:"

Adjustmint.jpg


And chiropractors wonder why they get backlash from physicians?
 
The chiropractor my wife went to the other day sent her a care package. In it was a couple of these "Adjustmints:"...And chiropractors wonder why they get backlash from physicians?

I wonder if the backlash is more from the fact that it demeans preventive medicine or that it exaggerates the worth of manipulation? It's terribly ironic that chiropractors base their entire field on overselling palliative care as a cure all and biomechanical panacea and then turn around and accuse medicine of only covering up symptoms.

It's a modern snake oil pitch.
 
Last edited:
The reason I asked you to clarify is exactly that: chiros don't do injections, so I wasn't sure what you meant. And when you say "not allowed to do injections", I would restate that as it's not in our scope of practice or philosophy as we are a conservative, non-invasive profession. I'm also "not allowed" to do open heart surgery. That doesn't mean we're anti-invasive treatments; I refer patients to pain guys fairly often.



This isn't fighting. It's an exchange of ideas (and maybe a little clarification of misinformation thrown in on the side. :))
I've seen just under 10 DO vs. X and "if I was a lowly DO, could I do this, compete with that" threads today. Let's not make this another one. The comments/questions made are inflammatory, to say the least and really do nothing but perpetuate myths that don't help anyone. DCs and DOs still have it tough out there, let's not dwell on it. Honestly, how far along are you in your training?

:troll:
 
The chiropractor my wife went to the other day sent her a care package. In it was a couple of these "Adjustmints:"

And chiropractors wonder why they get backlash from physicians?

And I just got a small notepad with 5 sheet of paper and pen from my local hospital system. It's marketing. Everyone does it to some extent these days. What's your point?

:sleep::sleep:
 
I've seen just under 10 DO vs. X and "if I was a lowly DO, could I do this, compete with that" threads today. Let's not make this another one. The comments/questions made are inflammatory, to say the least and really do nothing but perpetuate myths that don't help anyone. DCs and DOs still have it tough out there, let's not dwell on it. Honestly, how far along are you in your training?

:troll:

JG, with all due respect, you were the one who introduced the DO-related content. Nobody here was even talking about DOs or 'DO vs ___'. I respect your pride in your profession and your desire to make it better. Doing so needn't denigrate chiropractors though.

Let's get back to making fun of CDMguy......alright, just kidding about that one. :D
 
Gee that looks familiar. 1920s anyone?

http://www.planetc1.com/cgi-bin/n/v.cgi?c=1&id=1355243377

chiropractic-make-me-prove-it.jpg


There is actually a multi-school contest where a student wins a cash prize for the best indoctrination/misinformation/propaganda speech. The incredible thing is that students think their speeches are factual because they are just regurgitating what they learned in class from accredited US chiropractic college programs.

This is not outlier stuff.


Here is the winner for 2010.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL8CYwVcgXM[/YOUTUBE]

Compare to the Jonestown cult motivation speeches.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDDpJV61SkI[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1F9njSndbM[/YOUTUBE]
 
Last edited:
I didn't understand why chiros were not among other student docs until I read this delightful, encompassing, and impassioned thread.
 
JG, with all due respect, you were the one who introduced the DO-related content. Nobody here was even talking about DOs or 'DO vs ___'. I respect your pride in your profession and your desire to make it better. Doing so needn't denigrate chiropractors though.

Let's get back to making fun of CDMguy......alright, just kidding about that one. :D

I'm guessing 3rd year pre-med really frustrated with his pre-reqs right now. It's spelled 'Markovnikov' by the way and that crazy fruit fly stuff will become important in your first year classes of whatever medical school you go to so pay real close attention.

So, if facetguy has watched the "Miranda" video (lady in the orange shirt and black Hammer pants), especially at 7:35, he will hear that DCs are the ONLY people trained to repair and heal vertebral "subluxations" and that's the common thought for those not sure of what a DO does and this is why I brought that perspective up.

Getting into medical school is going to require a lot more research into all aspects of medicine to find enough information to reach a conclusion and post here about it. Please feel free revive this thread to let us know how your interviews go next year and see if your perspective has changed at all.
 
The 2011 winner used propaganda even more effectively to scare the audience into becoming chiropractic patients. According to him, chiropractic is their parachute-the only thing that can save them from a miserable disease-ridden life and early death. He directly implies that medicine is indoctrinating patients to only manage symptoms and that untreated subluxations and lifestyle factors are the underlying cause of mental disorders, chronic diseases and high health costs in the USA (1:47). See the flat adjusting table behind him? This was filmed in a chiropractic school.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7YLW0gqudY[/YOUTUBE]

The message doesn't change but the analogies do. When I attended in the 1990s the instructor preferred the analogy that we were firemen saving people in the burning building of vertebral subluxation. I'd be very surprised if instructors weren't still pulling quotes from Mendelsohn's 1979 book "Confessions of a Medical Heretic."

How would you feel if you were one of these students and just learned your entire education was propaganda? We see that frequently at the Chirotalk discussion forum.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am 32, have sunk 50 grand into this and have to move back to Florida with my head down knowing I got tricked out of 50 grand that could have been much better spent on my family (wife wtih 1yr old son and another on the way). Looks like I am going back to the landscaping business. Funny thing is I get more mowing a lawn then a do for a chiro treatment and I dont have to trick people into ongoing business as the grass always grows and people always want to upgrade their homes/property.

Read more: http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cheerschiro&action=display&thread=5716#ixzz2***Ciec8

A few more http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cheerschiro&action=display&thread=5151.

I wish there was a way to mobilize the support needed to get these charlatans out of the student loan programs. It would stop the problem at its source. Without the money they couldn't operate the colleges. This strategy is what Friends of Science in Medicine is doing to get chiropractors out of Australian higher education.

Lobby Group Formed to Remove Alternative Medicine, Chiropractic Courses from Universities

I think there is an affiliated FSM group in the USA.
 
Last edited:
The 2011 winner used propaganda even more effectively to scare the audience into becoming chiropractic patients. According to him, chiropractic is their parachute-the only thing that can save them from a miserable disease-ridden life and early death. He directly implies that medicine is indoctrinating patients to only manage symptoms and that untreated subluxations and lifestyle factors are the underlying cause of mental disorders, chronic diseases and high health costs in the USA (1:47). See the flat adjusting table behind him? This was filmed in a chiropractic school.

That kid is a pretty good speaker. I kinda liked that presentation. This video is a clear indication of just how blinded by bias you are; you weren't even hearing what he was saying. First, I don't even think he said the word "subluxation" and if he did he certainly didn't emphasize it because I didn't hear it.

Secondly, and most importantly: I know that you've been out of the loop for the last 15 years or so. But are you really so out of it that you missed the memo about the importance of lifestyle in health and disease?? I mean, how could you not know that lifestyle is the key reason we have an obesity epidemic, that diabetes rates are skyrocketing, and that lifestyle is generally believed to be at the root of many cancers?? And do you not think that our crappy diets have something to do with mental health as well?? As the young speaker in the video was outlining at the beginning of his talk, including the 1:47 point you suggested was some kind of smoking gun, what was he wrong about? Are we not headed in the wrong direction as a society when it comes to health? Are you denying this? How can you knock this young man for telling his audience that their behavior and lifestyle choices have tremendous implications to their health?

You are just unbelievable, and you've again made a fool of yourself. I, for one, am very glad you are no longer delivering healthcare in any form or fashion.

How would you feel if you were one of these students and just learned your entire education was propaganda? We see that frequently at the Chirotalk discussion forum..

Oh, the Chirotalk discussion board? Isn't that the one you created so that you and other chiropractors who sucked at what they did to the point of having to quit can cry on each others shoulders and blame the chiropractic profession instead of themselves? Yep, that's the one.

(And NO, I'm not donating. Only you and I have to know what that means.)
 
Last edited:
I'm guessing 3rd year pre-med really frustrated with his pre-reqs right now. It's spelled 'Markovnikov' by the way and that crazy fruit fly stuff will become important in your first year classes of whatever medical school you go to so pay real close attention.

:confused::confused:

So, if facetguy has watched the "Miranda" video (lady in the orange shirt and black Hammer pants), especially at 7:35, he will hear that DCs are the ONLY people trained to repair and heal vertebral "subluxations" and that's the common thought for those not sure of what a DO does and this is why I brought that perspective up.

I haven't watched "Miranda" yet. But should chiropractors instead tell people that they are correcting "osteopathic somatic lesions" or whatever you guys call them?? It's semantics. And if you'd been around SDN longer than the 10 minutes you have been, you'd know that I'm no fan of the subluxation talk.

Getting into medical school is going to require a lot more research into all aspects of medicine to find enough information to reach a conclusion and post here about it. Please feel free revive this thread to let us know how your interviews go next year and see if your perspective has changed at all.

Again, :confused: I've got to admit, I have no f'ing idea what you're talking about. But thanks for the tip.
 
F,

It's not worth my time to rehash issues that have already been covered in this thread. I get that you're incapable of admitting any problems in chiropractic and instead must assume some defects to blame the victims (a common cult tactic used by chiropractors against DC defectors who speak out against corruption in the field) so you can write off their systemic criticisms as a personal grudge-no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. You show this bias and rush to judgment in discussing the above 10 minute Miranda video without even watching it through. And you certainly didn't notice that the second "Lee Thomas" video has him clearly talking about how chiropractors correct subluxations at 7:19 so I guess you didn't bother to watch that through either.

Chirotalk members are by no means universal business failures, many describe quitting successful practices because they simply didn't like having to be dishonest with patients to make a living as a professional quack, especially when they went into the field with good intentions and wanted to make a positive contribution for humanity. It's a shock to one's ego to go from the esteem of a "doctor" saving humanity from subluxation to a two bit snake oil salesman. The two things that are required for business success are confidence that chiropractic is beneficial to patients and effective sales skills. The two speeches above are just typical indoctrination (sales) lectures that are given to patients to keep them committed to unnecessary care. If a chiropractor keeps questioning the field long enough eventually they see through the charade and this eliminates their confidence and ability to effectively sell chiropractic. They can still practice as a pseudo-physical therapist but at a huge disadvantage to the true believing chiropractors. By stating that business failure is the reason for the criticism you put the cart before the horse.

While I think you're nothing more than an egotistical chiropractic drone, your presence here is still useful to show members how chiropractors bend over backwards to support and justify the profession. Everyone should compare your earlier posts which adamantly deny that vitalistic philosophy was still present in mainstream current practice to your current silence after being presented with hard evidence to the contrary. At a minimum I think you owe everyone here an apology for trying to mislead them. You also owe me an apology for numerous disparaging statements that try to use ad hominem attacks to avoid discussing topics presented.
 
Last edited:
So, if facetguy has watched the "Miranda" video (lady in the orange shirt and black Hammer pants), especially at 7:35, he will hear that DCs are the ONLY people trained to repair and heal vertebral "subluxations" and that's the common thought for those not sure of what a DO does and this is why I brought that perspective up.

I've now watched "Miranda". I don't know, JG, I think the Hammer pants are workin' for her. You'd hit that. :thumbup: But anyway...

This is directed, of course, at CDMguy: Any attempts to link "Miranda's" talk to Jonestown are disgusting. And such a link is so far from reality that I'm really beginning to think you're slipping away.

But back to the talk. The first 6 minutes or so I have no problem with. She is imploring her audience to begin to think about their health and where they are headed health-wise. She's right in that we all could do better in that department. Medicine could do a lot better in that department as well, and everyone knows it so don't even try to argue that point.

For the next minute or two she goes into the subluxation/misaligned bone irritating a nerve thing, which I've discussed my disagreement with here on plenty of occasions. There just isn't much evidence that says spinal manipulation affects the viscera in any predictable way. Are there plenty of anecdotal cases suggesting some correlation between spinal manipulation and any number of non-MSK-related improvements? Of course, but at this point they are only anecdotes. Osteopathy has these stories as well.

And speaking of anecdotes, she finishes her talk with an uplifting story about a guy making miraculous improvements in his condition. Yes, n=1, anecdotal etc. But as a speaker you want to leave your audience with a positive message, so I don't really question her selection of that story. I would say that most chiros have some "miracle" story that can't really be explained, so perhaps this is hers.

Returning to the subluxation issue again, while I disagree with the way she describes things, I do believe that injuries or dysfunctions or functional lesions (or osteopathic somatic lesions) occur at the spinal level that involve the nervous system and that cause problems. I don't think it's as simple as BOOPers would have us believe, but there's something going on nonetheless.

A way I prefer to look at things is this. Single trauma or cumulative microtrauma causes subfailure injuries of the ligaments and embedded mechanoreceptors. The injured mechanoreceptors generate corrupted transducer signals, which lead to corrupted muscle response pattern produced by the neuromuscular control unit. Muscle coordination and individual muscle force characteristics, i.e. onset, magnitude, and shut-off, are disrupted. This results in abnormal stresses and strains in the ligaments, mechanoreceptors and muscles, and excessive loading of the facet joints. Due to inherently poor healing of spinal ligaments, accelerated degeneration of disc and facet joints may occur. The abnormal conditions may persist, and, over time, may lead to chronic back pain via inflammation of neural tissues.

This, in my view, is more likely to be what a 'subluxation' is. And, by the way, that last paragraph isn't my words. They are the words of Manohar Panjabi. If you don't yet know the name, you will if you study the spine even remotely. It's taken from this article, which I suggest you all read to get a better understanding of where at least a part of the current science is going:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489327/

When it comes to mechanisms of back pain, as well as mechanisms of spinal manipulation, no one knows 100% what's happening. That's why Panjabi speaks in terms of hypothesis. But the search continues, and the chiropractic profession is part of that search.
 
Except that chiropractors selling techniques based on unreliable analysis and incorrect biomechanical listing systems is a total joke.

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We're captive on the carousel of time
We can't return we can only look behind
From where we came
And go round and round and round
In the circle game

Dude, maybe you should re-read the thread. Everyone else is getting it.
 
F,

It's not worth my time to rehash issues that have already been covered in this thread. I get that you're incapable of admitting any problems in chiropractic and instead must assume some defects to blame the victims (a common cult tactic used by chiropractors against DC defectors who speak out against corruption in the field) so you can write off their systemic criticisms as a personal grudge-no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. You show this bias and rush to judgment in discussing the above 10 minute Miranda video without even watching it through.

Chirotalk members are by no means universal business failures, many describe quitting successful practices because they simply didn't like having to be dishonest with patients to make a living as a professional quack, especially when they went into the field with good intentions and wanted to make a positive contribution for humanity. It's a shock to one's ego to go from the esteem of a "doctor" saving humanity from subluxation to a two bit snake oil salesman. The two things that are required for business success are confidence that chiropractic is beneficial to patients and effective sales skills. The two speeches above are just typical indoctrination (sales) lectures that are given to patients to keep them committed to unnecessary care. If a chiropractor keeps questioning the field long enough eventually they see through the charade and this eliminates their confidence and ability to effectively sell chiropractic. They can still practice as a pseudo-physical therapist but at a huge disadvantage to the true believing chiropractors. By stating that business failure is the reason for the criticism you put the cart before the horse.

Your assertion that literally 10s of thousands of chiropractors out there are ALL, each and every one of us, ripping off patients, somehow tricking them or brainwashing them, is simply nonsensical. You take the default position to be that a chiropractor must absolutely, by definition, be a charlatan and rip patients off to have any success. I vehemently disagree with you. You are so far down your path of self-delusion that you are no longer capable of seeing things in real terms. Think about who you talk to on your Chirotalk: ex-chiros who have some grudge with the profession for one reason or another. No wonder you've come to believe, after surrounding yourself with this crowd for a decade and a half, that this must be the way things are. Well, guess what? I don't hang around with those ex-chiros. The chiros I know are good, hard working, caring people who go to the office everyday hoping to help someone. Do you know that I accept Medicaid which pays me $8 a visit and requires me to fill out pre-cert forms to boot? Yeah, boy, I'm sure ripping those people off. Are there scammers out there? Of course, let's not be naive. But scammers are everywhere. The problem is you've immersed yourself in a false reality that only allows you to believe that it's just chiropractors, all chiropractors apparently, who are scammers. Wake TF up.

While I think you're nothing more than an egotistical chiropractic drone, your presence here is still useful to show members how chiropractors bend over backwards to support and justify the profession. Everyone should compare your earlier posts which adamantly deny that vitalistic philosophy was still present in mainstream current practice to your current silence after being presented with hard evidence to the contrary. At a minimum I think you owe everyone here an apology for trying to mislead them. You also owe me an apology for numerous disparaging statements that try to use ad hominem attacks to avoid discussing topics presented.

I've never said that there aren't old school chiro hardliners out there. In fact, it's those chiros that I disagree with. Don't try to put words in my mouth and make it seem like I'm changing my story.

I don't mislead anyone. The reason I even post in these types of threads is the rampant misinformation that the likes of you spew in here.

And you will certainly not get an apology from me, so I hope you're not waiting for one.
 
Your assertion that literally 10s of thousands of chiropractors out there are ALL, each and every one of us, ripping off patients, somehow tricking them or brainwashing them, is simply nonsensical. You take the default position to be that a chiropractor must absolutely, by definition, be a charlatan and rip patients off to have any success. I vehemently disagree with you.
In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


You are so far down your path of self-delusion that you are no longer capable of seeing things in real terms. Think about who you talk to on your Chirotalk: ex-chiros who have some grudge with the profession for one reason or another. No wonder you've come to believe, after surrounding yourself with this crowd for a decade and a half, that this must be the way things are. Well, guess what? I don't hang around with those ex-chiros. The chiros I know are good, hard working, caring people who go to the office everyday hoping to help someone. Do you know that I accept Medicaid which pays me $8 a visit and requires me to fill out pre-cert forms to boot? Yeah, boy, I'm sure ripping those people off. Are there scammers out there? Of course, let's not be naive. But scammers are everywhere. The problem is you've immersed yourself in a false reality that only allows you to believe that it's just chiropractors, all chiropractors apparently, who are scammers. Wake TF up.
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.[1] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[2][3][4] more precisely an irrelevance.[5]

and

Appeal to pity (argumentum ad misericordiam) – an argument attempts to induce pity to sway opponents[53]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

As I said before, due to their indoctrination many DCs can do charitable acts and still be scumbag snake oil pushers. For example, you keep talking about helping spinal biomechanics in charitable cases when it's been clearly shown that you weren't taught valid spinal biomechanics. That makes you a fraud. Doing some charity work doesn't negate this.
 
Last edited:
As was stated.. I don't think you are a very proficient reader. I am/was a chiropractor but after going all the way back through MEDICAL school.. And completing a 4 year ACGME residency.. AND passing my neuro boards.. I am now a practicing neurologist in an academic hospital (FM and IM programs only). In addition, I am a partner in a 5 MD MSK, pain, and rehab practice (3 neuro, 2 PMR). I have my MBA in healthcare admin, so I also play an active (but small for now) role in our hospital's administration.

So please ask any questions on my opinion or experience in chiropractic or medicine... Or admin/business aspects of healthcare.
 
Except that chiropractors selling techniques based on unreliable analysis and incorrect biomechanical listing systems is a total joke.

OK, let's for the sake of argument assume for a moment that you're right and that chiropractors are "selling techniques" and using "incorrect biomechanical listing systems". I'm not saying I agree, but for argument's sake. If the chiro then renders a treatment that the literature says works (i.e., spinal manipulation, which even you say works unless for some strange reason it's a chiro who is performing it), is there really that much harm? That's like saying that an MD prescribing a medication because he thinks it works by Mechanism A but later is shown to work instead by Mechanism B, is that MD "a joke", to use your words? Is he a charlatan who blatantly lied to all those patients?

I've said it any number of times now. Nobody knows exactly how spinal manipulation works (or how neck or back pain works, for that matter). But we know manipulation is as effective as anything else out there and incomparably safe. So it's clearly reasonable to utilize it as a treatment while all the details get worked out over time. This approach is by no means unique to spinal manipulation.

(I have found that at least some medical students, still early in their training, still tend to hold the belief that everything they will someday do to treat neck and back pain patients is actually going to work like a charm. Over time, they will come to learn that there is no magic bullet for these patients and that their efforts to help these patients will sometimes fail while, horror of horrors, other forms of treatment like spinal manipulation may actually help these people. As I said above, nothing has been found to be more effective than spinal manipulation. That doesn't make it a panacea, but it works.)
 
OK, let's for the sake of argument assume for a moment that you're right and that chiropractors are "selling techniques" and using "incorrect biomechanical listing systems". I'm not saying I agree, but for argument's sake. If the chiro then renders a treatment that the literature says works (i.e., spinal manipulation, which even you say works unless for some strange reason it's a chiro who is performing it), is there really that much harm? That's like saying that an MD prescribing a medication because he thinks it works by Mechanism A but later is shown to work instead by Mechanism B, is that MD "a joke", to use your words? Is he a charlatan who blatantly lied to all those patients?

I've said it any number of times now. Nobody knows exactly how spinal manipulation works (or how neck or back pain works, for that matter). But we know manipulation is as effective as anything else out there and incomparably safe. So it's clearly reasonable to utilize it as a treatment while all the details get worked out over time. This approach is by no means unique to spinal manipulation.

(I have found that at least some medical students, still early in their training, still tend to hold the belief that everything they will someday do to treat neck and back pain patients is actually going to work like a charm. Over time, they will come to learn that there is no magic bullet for these patients and that their efforts to help these patients will sometimes fail while, horror of horrors, other forms of treatment like spinal manipulation may actually help these people. As I said above, nothing has been found to be more effective than spinal manipulation. That doesn't make it a panacea, but it works.)

Facet, just so you know.. Med students learn almost nothing about MSK issues.. And IF they rotate in ortho, pain, or PMR they get 4 weeks of following someone around and reading their books at night.. All while interviewing for residency and taking step 2 of the USMLE.
 
OK, let's for the sake of argument assume for a moment that you're right and that chiropractors are "selling techniques" and using "incorrect biomechanical listing systems". I'm not saying I agree, but for argument's sake. If the chiro then renders a treatment that the literature says works (i.e., spinal manipulation, which even you say works unless for some strange reason it's a chiro who is performing it), is there really that much harm? That's like saying that an MD prescribing a medication because he thinks it works by Mechanism A but later is shown to work instead by Mechanism B, is that MD "a joke", to use your words? Is he a charlatan who blatantly lied to all those patients?

Yes it constitutes false advertising because the DC tells the patient that they need to be on a program of care to accomplish biomechanical correction of the spine when it is known not to do this but then the program gives them something else-palliative care for spinal pain. The difference with what you describe is that a MD might use a treatment that is known to effect an outcome and have an uncertain mechanism (way of accomplishing the outcome). But the MD would never lie about the result (except as necessary for a study approved in advance by an institutional review board). You can't have real informed consent if you lie about results. It's fundamentally dishonest and geared towards selling the patient excessive care. It's fraud and constitutes gross professional negligence that any field would intentionally indoctrinate students to mislead patients into believing things that aren't true whether this is false biomechanical corrections or somatovisceral diabetes cures from spinal manipulation. It is a great shame on the US Department of Education (ED) that it allows accredited post-secondary programs to commit fraud by teaching false material.

Here's what false advertising is:

Under Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, a claim can be made against a defendant for false or misleading advertising. For a claim against a defendant for false advertising, the following elements are met and the plaintiff must show: (1) defendant made false or misleading statements as to his own products (or another's); (2) actual deception, or at least a tendency to deceive a substantial portion of the intended audience; (3) deception is material in that it is likely to influence purchasing decisions; (4) the advertised goods travel in interstate commerce; and (5) a likelihood of injury to plaintiff. However, the plaintiff does not have to prove actual injury. http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/false_advertising

So what we are seeing is a giant scheme to commit fraud while avoiding prosecution. This is along the same vein as another chiropractic scam we've seen where they market using quackery to treat diseases indirectly through subuxations so they can't be prosecuted for practicing medicine by treating disease directly (this is the rationale for chiropractic licensing laws). The catch here is that for it to be fraud the DC would have to known that chiropractic promises of biomechanical correction is quackery. The DC could just claim ignorance and get off. We don't see chiropractic associations putting out press releases that would constitute a common knowledge notice. On the other hand, if someone wrote something on the net that would show they figured it out then they would be liable for all the false claims. This is another way becoming skeptical damns the chiropractor. As long as the chiropractor stays quiet they can claim innocence, after all the subject was taught by a chiropractic college so any reasonable person would assume it's true. Also imagine the liability if a chiropractic college admitted that its teachings were false yet did continued to teach them for years. CCE accreditation reports show that Life University in Georgia knew it's curriculum violated accreditation standards back in 1992 yet did nothing for 9 years until students started complaining to the accreditor. The accreditor's action? It let all the affected graduates keep their degrees and covered it all up despite their being taught false diagnosis in place of the required differential diagnosis. This was all rubber stamped by ED. This is how farcical chiropractic regulation is. Anyway imagine Life's liability if the opposite was done and they could be added to every malpractice case against a graduate. It would be a liability and public relations nightmare that might even bankrupt them.

I've said it any number of times now. Nobody knows exactly how spinal manipulation works (or how neck or back pain works, for that matter). But we know manipulation is as effective as anything else out there and incomparably safe. So it's clearly reasonable to utilize it as a treatment while all the details get worked out over time. This approach is by no means unique to spinal manipulation.

PTs manipulate fine without promising biomechanical corrections that they can't accomplish. On the other hand, chiropractic's entire scope of practice is based around it. You can't eliminate it without re-writing 50 state practice acts and there would be nothing distinct to separate chiropractic from the other health professions.
 
Last edited:
Facet, just so you know.. Med students learn almost nothing about MSK issues.. And IF they rotate in ortho, pain, or PMR they get 4 weeks of following someone around and reading their books at night.. All while interviewing for residency and taking step 2 of the USMLE.

and what is your point? Clinical anecdote in no way validates the theory behind the techniques.... that is the problem in and of itself :idea:

Although I am not sure how many MS3s are interviewing :confused:
 
I thought the same thing Spec. I think he's making a Tu quoque fallacy to imply that because MDs have little ortho training this somehow excuses chiropractors for being illiterate in biomechanics.

Tu quoque ("you too", appeal to hypocrisy) – the argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position[64]
 
As was stated.. I don't think you are a very proficient reader. I am/was a chiropractor but after going all the way back through MEDICAL school.. And completing a 4 year ACGME residency.. AND passing my neuro boards.. I am now a practicing neurologist in an academic hospital (FM and IM programs only). In addition, I am a partner in a 5 MD MSK, pain, and rehab practice (3 neuro, 2 PMR). I have my MBA in healthcare admin, so I also play an active (but small for now) role in our hospital's administration.

So please ask any questions on my opinion or experience in chiropractic or medicine... Or admin/business aspects of healthcare.


I'm Superman.

Ask me any questions you have about Krypton, Lex Luthor.... or the power to fly.

There is no way you got through a rigorous medical education and still believe the bulk of what is touted and upheld as truth by mainstream chiropractic.
 
I'm Superman.

Ask me any questions you have about Krypton, Lex Luthor.... or the power to fly.

There is no way you got through a rigorous medical education and still believe the bulk of what is touted and upheld as truth by mainstream chiropractic.

:thumbup:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile
 
I'm Superman.

Ask me any questions you have about Krypton, Lex Luthor.... or the power to fly.

There is no way you got through a rigorous medical education and still believe the bulk of what is touted and upheld as truth by mainstream chiropractic.

Does the power of kryptonite drop off linearly over distance or does it follow Newton's inverse square law like radiation? If not, how do you explain its effects on you. Also, if Krypton was made of kryptonite, why didn't it negatively affect the citizens that lived on the surface? Was there a lead cobalt shell around the core?
 
I think this DC facetguy has been trolling since 2003. Back then he used the banned account BackTalk. The mindset and syntax are identical.

Originally Posted by BackTalk
>That's just it numbnuts, you don't think.

For those that don't have access to my PM inbox, the follwing is this mature guy's PM to me:

>you're a ****in idiot.

I haven't seen so much name calling since....6th grade?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=192515

vs.

I've now watched "Miranda". I don't know, JG, I think the Hammer pants are workin' for her. You'd hit that. :thumbup: But anyway....

and

Let's get back to making fun of CDMguy......alright, just kidding about that one. :D

It gets worse, now he's cyber-stalking to harass on unrelated posts.

Wait. I thought all things "alternative medicine" were quackery and must by definition prey upon desperate gullible patients? Oh, that's right. That's all true...until that "alternative medicine" applies personally to cdmguy. Then it's just fine because it might benefit him directly.

Double standard.

Intellectually dishonest.

What else is new? :rolleyes:

They really need better moderators around here. This guy, who is obviously not a MD or med student, should have been banned a long time ago for harassment.

F, I understand you're hurting from being stuck in a dishonest field. Instead of defensively attacking the messengers in futile attempt to defend your practice why don't you do something constructive and move on to get credentialed in a legitimate field? You repeatedly put other chiropractors down as business failures so lack of money shouldn't be a factor right? Is the problem that you have a hard time understanding that you've been scammed by chiropractic?
 
Last edited:
Yes it constitutes false advertising because the DC tells the patient that they need to be on a program of care to accomplish biomechanical correction of the spine when it is known not to do this but then the program gives them something else-palliative care for spinal pain. The difference with what you describe is that a MD might use a treatment that is known to effect an outcome and have an uncertain mechanism (way of accomplishing the outcome). But the MD would never lie about the result (except as necessary for a study approved in advance by an institutional review board). You can't have real informed consent if you lie about results. It’s fundamentally dishonest and geared towards selling the patient excessive care. It's fraud and constitutes gross professional negligence that any field would intentionally indoctrinate students to mislead patients into believing things that aren't true whether this is false biomechanical corrections or somatovisceral diabetes cures from spinal manipulation. It is a great shame on the US Department of Education (ED) that it allows accredited post-secondary programs to commit fraud by teaching false material.

Here's what false advertising is:



So what we are seeing is a giant scheme to commit fraud while avoiding prosecution. This is along the same vein as another chiropractic scam we've seen where they market using quackery to treat diseases indirectly through subuxations so they can't be prosecuted for practicing medicine by treating disease directly (this is the rationale for chiropractic licensing laws). The catch here is that for it to be fraud the DC would have to known that chiropractic promises of biomechanical correction is quackery. The DC could just claim ignorance and get off. We don't see chiropractic associations putting out press releases that would constitute a common knowledge notice. On the other hand, if someone wrote something on the net that would show they figured it out then they would be liable for all the false claims. This is another way becoming skeptical damns the chiropractor. As long as the chiropractor stays quiet they can claim innocence, after all the subject was taught by a chiropractic college so any reasonable person would assume it's true. Also imagine the liability if a chiropractic college admitted that its teachings were false yet did continued to teach them for years. CCE accreditation reports show that Life University in Georgia knew it's curriculum violated accreditation standards back in 1992 yet did nothing for 9 years until students started complaining to the accreditor. The accreditor's action? It let all the affected graduates keep their degrees and covered it all up despite their being taught false diagnosis in place of the required differential diagnosis. This was all rubber stamped by ED. This is how farcical chiropractic regulation is. Anyway imagine Life's liability if the opposite was done and they could be added to every malpractice case against a graduate. It would be a liability and public relations nightmare that might even bankrupt them.



PTs manipulate fine without promising biomechanical corrections that they can’t accomplish. On the other hand, chiropractic's entire scope of practice is based around it. You can't eliminate it without re-writing 50 state practice acts and there would be nothing distinct to separate chiropractic from the other health professions.

Hey, it's great to see you've now gotten your law degree....from a Cracker Jack box. :laugh:

What's all this fraud stuff now? Is that the latest tactic -- try to convince everyone here that the chiropractic profession is on the verge of being busted for fraud? Uh, OK. If only I had as much free time as you do, I'd go back through all your posts and list all the crazy notions you've tried to pass off as fact over the years.

And with regard to chiropractic schools, you'd love everyone to believe that it's just the Wild West out there, with schools doing whatever they want. Why don't we clear things up and point out that chiro schools are regulated by the US Dept of Education who have strict guidelines and rules. And we saw what happened to Life when they broke those rules: they lost accreditation until they cleaned house and got their act together. Of course, in your mind it's all some big conspiracy, where the judge in the case was a buddy of someone from Life, so that judge put his career and reputation on the line by simply lying for the benefit of the chiropractic profession. Isn't that how your version goes? Yeah, real credible.

Step back and listen to yourself once in awhile.
 
Haven't had enough yet? Let the pummeling continue.

It's pathetic that you accuse me of fabrication and then make blatant lies based on assumptions that you can't support with evidence. Fortunately for SDN readers I can support my statements. The link below has a letter dated July 18, 2012 where the Director of the US Department of Education states that false advertising by chiropractic programs is outside the legal authority of ED to regulate. If you think about it, there's no way they could regulate quackery like astrology, homeopathy, TCM and chiropractic since it is based on pseudoscience and is permitted by state law. The only way they could have authority would be if they decided to regulate the colleges as interstate commerce and then they would have to void the chiropractic practice acts for the 50 states because federal law supersedes state law. The government isn't interested in that fight so it won't happen.

http://www.adrive.com/public/dqNaeU/2006-07-18 Barth to AB.pdf

I've already provided evidence showing Judge Moye's conflict of interest. The chiropractic accreditor filed an extensive appeal rebutting his preliminary injunction (also below).

http://www.adrive.com/public/zTVvKe/CCE appeal for LUCC case.pdf

I've already posted a link from the Georgia medical board proving that they don't allow chiropractors to order the diagnostic testing necessary to meet the CCE accreditor's requirement prohibiting premature diagnosis. This means that any GA chiropractor ordering labwork would be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license. The is prima fascie evidence that CCE is still not enforcing its guidelines. This rebuts your claim that the accreditation process corrected Life University's problems in the present.

Of course I don't expect you to read these documents but for the benefit of the real professionals here who might want to verify what I said, here they are.

Facetguy/BackTalk I want you banned. You do nothing but misinform and harass people here.

Readers please flag Facetguy's last post and ask the moderator to ban him.
 
Last edited:
I think this DC facetguy has been trolling since 2003. Back then he used the banned account BackTalk. The mindset and syntax are identical.



vs.



and

Or maybe BackTalk and I have come to the same obvious conclusions about you. Ever think of that?

For the record, I first arrived on SDN in 2008, having never heard of this site prior to that. Nor have I ever heard of BackTalk (but maybe I'd like him/her). So, although you apparently fancy yourself some super-sleuth, you can dispell yourself of the notion that I have some other identity around here.

It gets worse, now he's cyber-stalking to harass on unrelated posts.

Dude, just how bored are you? Everything is always some grandiose plot against you. Cyber-stalking now? You posted something in the Topics subforum, where I and thousands of others had the opportunity to view and comment on your post. So when I take the opportunity to comment on your post there, it's now cyber-stalking??? Where's your online law dictionary definition of cyber-stalking, by the way??:laugh:

And let's mention what your post was about. You brought to everyone's attention that there was going to be a webinar that might be of interest to others. That's fine; we're all busy and, speaking for myself, I appreciate a heads-up about things happening around the world. But that webinar, as you clearly noted, was about 'alternative medicine guidelines' for Lyme disease. You, probably more than anyone here on SDN, love to rail against alternative medicine, proclaiming it quackery, fraud and all the rest. However, as in this case, when those 'alternative' guidelines pertain to your personal health challenges and may benefit you personally, well suddenly alternative treatments are perfectly fine. That hypocrisy is why I posted what I posted. You've done this before, but truthfully I can't recall exactly when or how, but I recall pointing out this same hypocrisy before.


They really need better moderators around here. This guy, who is obviously not a MD or med student, should have been banned a long time ago for harassment.

Listen to you. Your full time engagement on SDN has been to denigrate the chiropractic profession and label chiropractors and me personally with all manner of insulting accusations. Less than 24 hours ago you compared chiropractic to Jonestown! But when I fire back at you with a little fact-checking, you want to hide behind the moderators? Suddenly it's harrassment? You would absolutely love it if you could spew your bias unchecked, but you can't and you don't like that. You don't like a level playing field. It becomes "harrassment" that needs better moderation and banning. Please.

F, I understand you're hurting from being stuck in a dishonest field. Instead of defensively attacking the messengers in futile attempt to defend your practice why don't you do something constructive and move on to get credentialed in a legitimate field? You repeatedly put other chiropractors down as business failures so lack of money shouldn't be a factor right? Is the problem that you have a hard time understanding that you've been scammed by chiropractic?

Stuck? I've had other opportunities that you'd love to have. And I don't attack the messengers, as you suggest. I dispute the falsehoods perpetuated by you. And I don't put anyone down for failing in practice. I simply suggest that those who have failed in practice look to themselves for finding reasons for failure instead of cowardly broad-brushing the entire chiropractic profession as charlatans etc.

And you weren't scammed by chiropractic, and you know it, which is why you need to maintain this anti-chiropractic front to shield yourself from reality. At least you're not alone, spending your days kibitzing over on your website with the relative handful of others in a similar position..
 
F (short for facetguy and fallacy user),

Don't put words in my mouth (straw man fallacy). I never said that I am against everything in alternative medicine and you have no right to heckle every post just because you were revealed to be a propaganda monger trying to defend chiropractic. Alt med is problematic because they don't care about meeting the burden of proof. However many medical advances start outside the mainstream and eventually get adopted once they prove themselves. If you weren't a quack you would know this.
 
Last edited:
Top