Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

[Advance]

I Uber drive and try to explain the best I can the reality of dentistry to passengers

I try to explain it to my co-workers too. They say "oh 500k plus interest is nothing to pay back for a dentist!"
I'm over here like....

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[fancymylotus]

Most people have a totally cracked grip on reality


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[DentalLonghorn2014]

I try to explain it to my co-workers too. They say "oh 500k plus interest is nothing to pay back for a dentist!"
I'm over here like....

I have a friend whose friend graduated from NYU dental with 500K of debt. Even she said that she doesn't know how to truly pay it all off in a timely manner. :/

 

[schmoob]

I have a friend whose friend graduated from NYU dental with 500K of debt. Even she said that she doesn't know how to truly pay it all off in a timely manner. :/

"Do you, prospective dental student, take this $500K to be your lawfully acquired debt; in sickness and in health, till death do you part?"

Hahaha, says me who got into NYU.

I'm screwed...

 

[fancymylotus]

You'll all be okay. Make smart financial decisions and invest wisely, no reason that even those with large debt can't pay it off.


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[capnamerica]

I Uber drive and try to explain the best I can the reality of dentistry to passengers

Do you Uber drive in your Fit?

 

[Hyunin1210]

"Do you, prospective dental student, take this $500K to be your lawfully acquired debt; in sickness and in health, till death do you part?"

Hahaha, says me who got into NYU.

I'm screwed...

It says you are in the navy! PSLF, HPSP??

 

[schmoob]

You'll all be okay. Make smart financial decisions and invest wisely, no reason that even those with large debt can't pay it off.


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Thank you. It's encouraging. Your wise fancy lotus is guiding me in the right direction.
But seriously, my wife and I have business degrees, I have a feeling that we can figure out a good plan.

EDIT: That sounded douchey. I actually meant that sincerely.

 

[schmoob]

It says you are in the navy! PSLF, HPSP??

HPSP is currently a no-go for me unfortunately.
Whatever it is, I'm sure I'll figure it out.
I appreciate the encouragement from you folks!

 

[fancymylotus]

Thank you. It's encouraging. Your wise fancy lotus is guiding me in the right direction.
But seriously, my wife and I have business degrees, I have a feeling that we can figure out a good plan.

EDIT: That sounded douchey. I actually meant that sincerely.

My plan involves maxing out my 401k each year

A mega backdoor Roth

Commercial real estate(multi family units)

And buying our offices rather than leading them, and renting space in the buildings out to other tenants, if possible

And trying to control overhead

Amongst five zillion other things, I'd rather set up myself for later in life when I can't run around like this and obviously make sure my future children will be taken care of, than buy the prettiest newest thing right when it comes out.

I do buy a **** ton of shoes though. And bags. But I don't go into my emergency fund or savings for any of that.

I need to sleep, I have a fun ten hour day tomorrow


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[schmoob]

My plan involves maxing out my 401k each year

A mega backdoor Roth

Commercial real estate(multi family units)

And buying our offices rather than leading them, and renting space in the buildings out to other tenants, if possible

And trying to control overhead

Amongst five zillion other things, I'd rather set up myself for later in life when I can't run around like this and obviously make sure my future children will be taken care of, than buy the prettiest newest thing right when it comes out.

I do buy a **** ton of shoes though. And bags. But I don't go into my emergency fund or savings for any of that.

I need to sleep, I have a fun ten hour day tomorrow


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Lol you said mega backdoor....

 

[fancymylotus]

Lol you said mega backdoor....

Kids! That's what it's called. I knew someone would say that


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[Incis0r]

My plan involves maxing out my 401k each year

A mega backdoor Roth

Commercial real estate(multi family units)

And buying our offices rather than leading them, and renting space in the buildings out to other tenants, if possible

Sounds like you're setting yourself up for a golden nest egg + some serious passive income in the future. Nice work!

What's your tax-advantaged vehicle/contribution limit? (solo401k, SEP-IRA, etc)

Do you buy your multifamily properties outright, or do you leverage them? Do you retain the services of property management or do you self-manage?

How did you decide to go into land-lording vs. just investing in some REITS?

If you leverage your multifamily properties, do you still find it relatively easy to get the loans to purchase the commercial real estate- the space inside of which you rent out to other tenants?

Are your commercial properties and residential properties under a separate LLC? Are you personally responsible for the loans on those properties in the event that they do not produce sufficient cash flow?

Commercial real estate is something that I've been looking into- how do you finance such endeavors? Do you syndicate or just come up with 20% and then finance the rest with a bank?

 

[fancymylotus]

Sounds like you're setting yourself up for a golden nest egg + some serious passive income in the future. Nice work!

What's your tax-advantaged vehicle/contribution limit?

Do you buy your multifamily properties outright, or do you leverage them?

If you leverage, do you still find it relatively easy to get the loans to purchase the other commercial properties that you rent out to other tenants?

Commercial real estate is something that I've been looking into- how do you finance such endeavors? Do you syndicate or just come up with 20% and then finance the rest with a bank?

This is all slightly easier for me as I have a parent whose outlook on investing is the same as mine. We buy outright, and as far as commercial real estate goes, we try to get the bank to finance as much as we can and then pay it back faster than the terms we get. I have colleagues who have similar plans to mine and they've had little to no issues getting loans from banks for this stuff once they've been working a few years.

Any specific questions, PM me.


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[Incis0r]

This is all slightly easier for me as I have a parent whose outlook on investing is the same as mine. We buy outright, and as far as commercial real estate goes, we try to get the bank to finance as much as we can and then pay it back faster than the terms we get. I have colleagues who have similar plans to mine and they've had little to no issues getting loans from banks for this stuff once they've been working a few years.

Any specific questions, PM me.


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Ok, sending PM. Thanks!

 

[fancymylotus]

We offer a 401k and there's some match. And then I do a non Roth after tax contribution into it and roll it over. You can do this up to 52k, remember that the first 18k is your 401 contribution and doesn't get rolled over into a Roth

Not all plans offer this and it doesn't make financial sense for everyone. Just FYI.


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[schmoob]

Kids! That's what it's called. I knew someone would say that


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Not a kid
But seriously, that's a good plan. Like @Incis0r says, you are really setting yourself for a solid passive income stream.
Sounds like had work in school and those 10 hour days relatively early in the career pays it's dividends.
Once you're all set financially, you can enjoy life. Maybe you can get yourself a Shoe&Bag Bin to dive into, a la Scrooge McDuck.
That would be so cool. For a girl....

 

[fancymylotus]

I have so many shoes they don't fit in this apartment and currently reside in the attics and God knows where else at my parents house, my fiancé keeps yelling at me when he picks up packages at the front desk


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[Incis0r]

Not a kid
But seriously, that's a good plan. Like @Incis0r says, you are really setting yourself for a solid passive income stream.
Sounds like had work in school and those 10 hour days relatively early in the career pays it's dividends.
Once you're all set financially, you can enjoy life. Maybe you can get yourself a Shoe&Bag Bin to dive into, a la Scrooge McDuck.
That would be so cool. For a girl....

You're going to be there soon enough too, bud! You've got the industrious attitude and the business prowess. And you'll have that DDS pronto as well.

 

[schmoob]

We offer a 401k and there's some match. And then I do a non Roth after tax contribution into it and roll it over. You can do this up to 52k, remember that the first 18k is your 401 contribution and doesn't get rolled over into a Roth

Not all plans offer this and it doesn't make financial sense for everyone. Just FYI.

Is this some sort of self-employed profit share plan?
Either way, 52K annually is pretty sweet. Especially if diversified. I'm confused though, is this Standard or Roth? And are you using this as a deduction?

I have so many shoes they don't fit in this apartment and currently reside in the attics and God knows where else at my parents house, my fiancé keeps yelling at me when he picks up packages at the front desk


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You need a Bin.

Wait your fiancé works with you???
Even better!

 

[fancymylotus]

You need a Bin.

I don't even wear most of them, my work shoes are a rotating assortment of toms, ugg sneakers, etc


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[schmoob]

I don't even wear most of them, my work shoes are a rotating assortment of toms, ugg sneakers, etc


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That's my wife's dream.
In the meantime it's Costco and the clearance rack at DSW...
Meanwhile between my kids I feel like I'm buying shoes every other week!


Boy, this thread got derailed in all kinds of directions....

 

[fancymylotus]

That's my wife's dream.
In the meantime it's Costco and the clearance rack at DSW...
Meanwhile between my kids I feel like I'm buying shoes every other week!

Costco and target are my favorites


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[schmoob]

Her favorite pair of sneakers she got on sale from Costco for like $16.99.
She sent me there after work the next day to get her two more pairs and sure enough the only sizes left were circus dwarf and Wile E. Coyote.

 

[fancymylotus]

I'm old, it's really bedtime.


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[strep mutans]

So many people (I see on reddit especially) are just straight up ANGRY that dentists charge them so much/earn so much. It gets even worse if people try to explain it to them that it is 4 years and 400k student debt. Because when students/dentists put it that way, it really makes it sound like you're cheating them just to cover your debt (while they feel like dentists are being entitled to the cash in their pockets, they also think that they are entitled to the dentist's dollars ).

The thing is, cost of dental care was considered high even when dental school debt was not. I recommend instead pointing out the cost of overhead: building, staff, insurances, very expensive equipment, lab fees, high cost of materials, etc.

Also, and more importantly, the fact that dental insurance benefits and maximums haven't increased in like 45 years or something ridiculous, even though premiums have increased substantially. Most annual maximums are somewhere around $1,500 and have been that way since the 1970s. That's not even one root canal and crown these days. If the annual maximums had increased just to reflect inflation, that would be nearly a $7,000 annual maximum today. Dentists and patients would rejoice together. I'm sure the insurance companies are laughing their a$$es off.

People also think that dental insurance is like medical insurance. It's not. It's more like a discount, not full coverage for major treatments.

 

[Zdima(hope)]

SQ Again:

I have a 4.0 GPA and got a 28 on the DAT. I have about 1,000,000 hours of shadowing and 1,000,000 hours of volunteering. I started a non profit organization and have been a dental assistant for 10 years. I discovered how to cure cancer and wrote a research thesis on it. My first word was actually "tooth." What are my chances of getting into dental school?

Im sorry unfortunately us as a dental school dont feel like you would fit in, please apply in 200 years exactly. Thank you for the deposit.

 

[distressstudent]

The thing is, cost of dental care was considered high even when dental school debt was not. I recommend instead pointing out the cost of overhead: building, staff, insurances, very expensive equipment, lab fees, high cost of materials, etc.

Also, and more importantly, the fact that dental insurance benefits and maximums haven't increased in like 45 years or something ridiculous, even though premiums have increased substantially. Most annual maximums are somewhere around $1,500 and have been that way since the 1970s. That's not even one root canal and crown these days. If the annual maximums had increased just to reflect inflation, that would be nearly a $7,000 annual maximum today. Dentists and patients would rejoice together. I'm sure the insurance companies are laughing their a$$es off.

People also think that dental insurance is like medical insurance. It's not. It's more like a discount, not full coverage for major treatments.

I agree. That's why I don't like it when students complain too much to "outsiders" about the cost of dental education. People like to be like eagles and hone into only one part; I see it way too often. If they hear "student debt" they think that's the reason why things are the way they are, but the emotional component of that is "why should your personal choices affect my treatment". It doesn't matter if you point out that overhead is 72%, the impression has been made.

Dental students too often try to paint themselves as really big martyrs to the public with their high debt load and years of training. We discuss this issue a lot on sdn because we all share that burden and understand a little bit of what's that like. But the fact is that strangers simply don't care. And it's weird to see people try to convince others that they are indeed martyrs.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

/

 

[EasTexan]

I try to explain it to my co-workers too. They say "oh 500k plus interest is nothing to pay back for a dentist!"
I'm over here like....

Says the guy going to Baylor

I joke... but seriously...

 

[schmoob]

$500K in student debt is not manageable when one graduates and decides "that's it, I've made it" and decides to start working corporate dentistry drilling and filling 4 days a week; trying to live the life of a dentist who's owned their own practice for 20+ years. All while buying the new bimmer, new house, new clothes, vacations....

 

[BioDoc]

You'll all be okay. Make smart financial decisions and invest wisely, no reason that even those with large debt can't pay it off.


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Hi Fancy. I am just curious. Do you think you would be as happy and successful as you are right now if your Dad wasn't a dentist?

What if you were a student who went to dental school, acquired 400k+ debt, and didn't have a parent to give them a practice/job when they got out?

 

[fancymylotus]

Hi Fancy. I am just curious. Do you think you would be as happy and successful as you are right now if your Dad wasn't a dentist?

What if you were a student who went to dental school, acquired 400k+ debt, and didn't have a parent to give them a practice/job when they got out?

I would probably be more stressed out, but I think if that was the case I would have moved back to my parents house for a few years, worked like crazy, paid off 25-50% of that debt, and then gone about things the way I've previously mentioned.

I know I'm one lucky girl, but I hope that my advice is still relevant and helpful to you all.


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[480640]

.

 

[Sam1276]

a rep from patterson dental came to my school today and told all first year dental students that they were lucky because they were going to enter the golden age of dentistry. thought he was joking first, but then i realized he was actually being serious. i feel sorry for those who actually believed him.

No surprise there - they're paid to say that

Most dental corporations are basically ignoring the law/dodging lawsuits in order to continue operating. It's crazy out there

Add in the fact that there are more dentists graduating now + foreign dentists entering (~6000 every year) than there where at the peak in the 80's. It actually a bit hilarious how similar Dentistry is to Pharmacy/Optician-Eyeglass Stores/etc. Field is about to crash and burn in the next 10 years - especially when the average student debt (among student that HAVE debt, not all students total) is around $330k+

Not sure why anyone would choose dentistry over medicine to be honest

Interestingly, Both Canada and the United Kington (w/ NHS) control the number of graduates of medical/dental/vet school, in order to achieve a certain ratio with the population. Sort of like how medical RESIDENCY funding is tied to congress. The over-saturation + 500k student loan debacle wouldn't even happen in these countries because there are rules in place to prevent it

The US just has a thing for runaway capitalism, which unfortunately, screws over dentists (along with the middle class in general)

 

[738177]

No surprise there - they're paid to say that

Interestingly, Both Canada and the United Kington (w/ NHS) control the number of graduates of medical/dental/vet school, in order to achieve a certain ratio with the population. Sort of like how medical RESIDENCY funding is tied to congress. The over-saturation + 500k student loan debacle wouldn't even happen in these countries because there are rules in place to prevent it

The US just has a thing for runaway capitalism, which unfortunately, screws over dentists (along with the middle class in general)

Canada is only slightly better currently in terms of population to dentists ratio. Foreign dentists can take the boards and get licensed here without going through expensive advanced standing programs. Since 2011 (when the floodgates were opened to foreign dentists) there has been a 50% increase in new registration of dentists in Canada i.e. things aren't looking great for us Canadians either. It's better in the sense that, yeah we'll never have private schools popping up everywhere etc. but the market isn't as great as it appears to be from the outside. Definitely a tricky time for North American dentists in general.

 

[GypsyHummus]

No surprise there - they're paid to say that

Most dental corporations are basically ignoring the law/dodging lawsuits in order to continue operating. It's crazy out there

Add in the fact that there are more dentists graduating now + foreign dentists entering (~6000 every year) than there where at the peak in the 80's. It actually a bit hilarious how similar Dentistry is to Pharmacy/Optician-Eyeglass Stores/etc. Field is about to crash and burn in the next 10 years - especially when the average student debt (among student that HAVE debt, not all students total) is around $330k+

Not sure why anyone would choose dentistry over medicine to be honest

Interestingly, Both Canada and the United Kington (w/ NHS) control the number of graduates of medical/dental/vet school, in order to achieve a certain ratio with the population. Sort of like how medical RESIDENCY funding is tied to congress. The over-saturation + 500k student loan debacle wouldn't even happen in these countries because there are rules in place to prevent it

The US just has a thing for runaway capitalism, which unfortunately, screws over dentists (along with the middle class in general)

Whoa, there is a lot to unpack here. We will start from the bottom and go up.

First off, the comment about capitalism. If we truly lived in a capitalistic/free market economy, the market would sort itself out. Right now, because of government back loans, D schools and charge whatever they want and these twerps with bio majors will bend over and take whatever the D schools are gonna shove in their direction. Don't blame capitalism for this. What's happening in higher Ed is cronyism.

A socialist way of higher Ed is not the way to go. It will lead to an overall decrease in the quality of education.

I'd choose debtal over medicine cuz it's only 4 years as opposed to a minimum of 7, and you can work 4 days/week. Dentistry is an amazing profession, and there are a lot of people making a ton of money.

Dentistry won't crash. The accreditation body actually cares about the profession, unlike pharmacy and optometry.

No clue about big Dental companies doing that sort of stuff.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Not this again. Please. No.

 

[DC206R]

Listen to the OP, don't apply. Gives me a better chance. lol

 

[JLT223]

The thread that keeps on giving

 

[SrJulio]

I have never been too fond of large cities, so I don't mind living in a small city, or even in rural areas. Also, I heard the US., Canada and Australia have some sort of agreement that allows dentists trained in one country to be licensed to practice in the other two, so that is one option. I guess what I am saying is there are always options, but you just have to be adaptive

 

[738177]

I have never been too fond of large cities, so I don't mind living in a small city, or even in rural areas. Also, I heard the US., Canada and Australia have some sort of agreement that allows dentists trained in one country to be licensed to practice in the other two, so that is one option. I guess what I am saying is there are always options, but you just have to be adaptive

US only has reciprocity with Canada.
Canada has reciprocity with Ireland/New Zealand/Australia. A US trained dentist would be considered "foreign" in the latter countries, although i can't imagine the process being too hard to get licensed there. I think (just my opinion) the biggest problem with practicing in those 3 countries is that it'll take really long to pay off a typical US dental student debt. But yeah if you're flexible with where you wanna practice, i'd imagine you'll have an easier time!

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I hate seeing these threads all the time haha everyone needs to realize that EVERY profession right now is facing problems and saturation. Not one single career isn't. Go to the PA forum and they will say the same thing. Pre-Meds are afraid of the mid-level providers taking over. NP grads are talking about the schools popping up and saturation. Pharmacy has been saying it for years. Lawyers can't find jobs. Financial majors are having trouble. The only jobs that seem secure and not saturated are accountants and computers. BUTTTT I would hate those jobs, so I'm gonna stick with dental.

 

[xerxes106]

I hate seeing these threads all the time haha everyone needs to realize that EVERY profession right now is facing problems and saturation. Not one single career isn't. Go to the PA forum and they will say the same thing. Pre-Meds are afraid of the mid-level providers taking over. NP grads are talking about the schools popping up and saturation. Pharmacy has been saying it for years. Lawyers can't find jobs. Financial majors are having trouble. The only jobs that seem secure and not saturated are accountants and computers. BUTTTT I would hate those jobs, so I'm gonna stick with dental.

Exactly. Talk to any person in any field and you'll get the exact same answer. Dentistry is awful, medical is miserable, law is saturated, PA's have the greatest life of anyone why didn't you go to PA school, research is impossible. Its just people doing poorly in their field that blame it on the system.

 

[Incis0r]

@xerxes106 @smurfeyD , you guys are absolutely correct. Every profession is being challenged right now. Medicine especially so- between declining reimbursements, increasing role of mid-levels, increased regulation, and rising student debt (which is compounded by the LONG time in residency), Medicine is getting more challenging.

Now, does that mean that it is impossible to have a good life in Medicine? NO- plenty of people entering Medicine today will be financially successful and will enjoy their lives. They just need to be more disciplined and keep an eye on their budget a little more than their predecessors did, and they'll be OK.

So if Medicine, which is facing all of these challenges, can remain a decent field, why can't Dentistry, when we have (imho) fewer challenges than Medicine (we have less competition from midlevels, we have some affordable state schools, we do not need a residency to work* so the loans won't compound as much, we do not have nearly as much regulation as Medicine does, etc.)

Of course, financials should never be the only reason for choosing a career, but you want to be compensated fairly for the hard work you've put in and will continue to do for the benefit of society, and I think the financial picture is bright for dentistry.

The profession itself, however, is its own reward.


*unless you live in a state like NY which does require a residency to work.

 

[SrJulio]

I hate seeing these threads all the time haha everyone needs to realize that EVERY profession right now is facing problems and saturation. Not one single career isn't. Go to the PA forum and they will say the same thing. Pre-Meds are afraid of the mid-level providers taking over. NP grads are talking about the schools popping up and saturation. Pharmacy has been saying it for years. Lawyers can't find jobs. Financial majors are having trouble. The only jobs that seem secure and not saturated are accountants and computers. BUTTTT I would hate those jobs, so I'm gonna stick with dental.

Might I add engineers to the list of the people who don't have to worry about finding a job? From ME to EE, all the engineers I know at my school have no problem landing a job right after graduation. My backup plan is to get a Ph.D. In an engineering field if I don't get into dental school. Luckily I majored in physical sciences


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[xerxes106]

Might I add engineers to the list of the people who don't have to worry about finding a job? From ME to EE, all the engineers I know at my school have no problem landing a job right after graduation. My backup plan is to get a Ph.D. In an engineering field if I don't get into dental school. Luckily I majored in physical sciences


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See. Smart man right here. Having an alternative. I think that's the most disturbing thing about a lot of people on these boards and undergrads I've interviewed for jobs......no one has a backup plan if they don't get into professional school. The real bad job market is the endless sea of BS in Biology recent grads that have zero hard skills for a job in their gap year(s). We get a 50-100 applications for every entry level job and not a single one stands out with the "I have research experience from my biol 101 lab."

 

[PocketRocket]

There are people that whine, complain, and blame others for their life situation, and then there are people that take full responsibility for their lives, have positive assumptions, but understand that life is multifaceted and messy. The former are the type that seem to be always unhappy. The latter thrive, absolutely love the hustle, and ultimately enjoy life. Also, there are a bunch of dentists looking to retire soon. And, a bunch of weird ones. I have friends in engineering, healthcare, and business/entrepreneurs, and they all agree that it's "saturated". If your mentality is to work your butt off, bite the bullet, and "suffer" through school just so you can have an easy life after you might as well stop now because by choosing dentistry as your career you agree to a life of service and hard work, a life of highs and lows, a life of gratification and sacrifice. It's AMAZING! Every part of it. I might only be starting dental school but I have also lived a life that adds a lot of perspective and makes the OP sound like a whiny lil b!tch

 

[distressstudent]

Might I add engineers to the list of the people who don't have to worry about finding a job? From ME to EE, all the engineers I know at my school have no problem landing a job right after graduation. My backup plan is to get a Ph.D. In an engineering field if I don't get into dental school. Luckily I majored in physical sciences


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All the real STEM degrees are doing well. There's a narrative here that all jobs are saturated. That's not telling the whole story here. There are fields that are saturated and there are fields that aren't. It is hard to say if dentistry is truly saturated or not given that there are still opportunities (location, location, location). But fields requiring a hard science STEM degree is booming. Computer scientists especially are busy checking in their fat bonuses while folks in the health industry are busy talking about how the sky is falling.

 

[strep mutans]

Computer scientists especially are busy checking in their fat bonuses while folks in the health industry are busy talking about how the sky is falling.

I've heard from many in the IT industry that their jobs are being outsourced to India, and that others are working longer, more stressful hours for less pay than they did in the past. Can't outsource healthcare to India.